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Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Carsten OrltThank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 1:53:44 am

Always great to come back here and read all the things people are passionate about. Only downside is sometimes this nasty 'my way or the highway' crap..

Now I would like to voice my OPINION ( I wrote this in capitals to stress the fact that it is an opinion and not the almighty truth :-)

First I encourage everybody (if you haven't done already) to read the following paper from Apple: http://images.apple.com/finalcutpro/docs/Final_Cut_Pro_X_for_Final_Cut_Pro_...
This is the closest we'll get to hear from the developers to why they did it the way they did. Not conclusive but I did find some really interesting bits in there which for me cleared things up a little.

Now why the subject line? Because I honestly think that FCPx is a great story telling tool! No it's not the super app that does your multi million dollar VFX as well. Nor is it the DAW that has unlimited tracks and buses etc. And thank god it is not!!! And I hope it'll never be! And I can't stress this enough.

Why do I say this? Because my prime work is to tell a story. I have the odd super or still graphic to include and I do a little audio sweetening for rough or fine cut presentation or if I need to put something on the net. Same goes for CC. FCPx can exactly do that for me and do it in a very clever and easy to understand way, and without a hundred menus and buttons I will never use.

Same as everybody else I was struggling at first with the new concept of FCPx. It took me a while to get to this conclusion, but the main breakthrough came after spending some time with FCPx and trying to understand it, I did go back to edit a project on FCP7. And I finally understood why the timeline in FCPx is the way it is. Sure you can do everything you want in FCP7 but all the steps I needed to do when tracks were colliding or the gabs I needed to create to shuffle things around are just not necessary in FCPx. And the only downside I can see right now is that you maybe loose the visual (and it's visual only because all audio clips still play the same) organisational structure a track system gives you where e.g music is always on your bottom tracks. Again this is from a story teller point of view not from the VFX or DAW point of view. So in my opinion (the word again) Apple clearly did make it better, not just different.

A lot of discussion here is also about native format support. I understand if you have fast turnarounds you like the fact that nothing needs to be transcoded initially (eventually it will). When you work for month on a single project I couldn't care less about a few nights the computer humming away to get footage transcoded. Again exactly what FCPx does best. Ingest fast to get going and transcode in background. So mercury engine is cool but not necessary.
Do I need Autodesk. God forbid. There are much smarter people than me out there that specialise in VFX. Nobody needs another I can do this too now, but it'll look really crap. Same goes for Audio.

So for me the main tool I need is the editing tool. It needs to be simple and not get in my way. And I think Apple actually advanced this part dramatically.

And that is why I hope Apple will not buckle under the pressure from the crowd (meant here in the nicest possible way :-) and stick to its principles regarding FCPx. Keep it simple (though fix the bugs of course) and provide the hooks to pass on my work to others where I need to.

PS same actually goes for the MacPro discussion. I totally understand if you are heavily in VFX you might need the biggest, beefiest beast out there and you want to get it for as little as you can find. I do not need this. And I like the idea that by using thunderbolt I can separate the CPU from the GPU from the i/o and can easily carry things around, swap componends etc.

So even though Apple confused me in the beginning, they ultimately again delivered the goods. And that's why I stick with them. Nope, not all is perfect, but from my point of view a heck lot better than the alternatives. (I just love their attention to detail. I still get exited whenever I swap the power plug on an Apple power supply. Simple and solid, same solution for direct to plug or with cord extension, same on all power supplies. Just masterful design)

That is my story. What is yours?

Cheers
Carsten


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Michael GissingRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 2:59:48 am

Now that much of the import and export hooks are in the system and third parties are making it possible, I have far less to worry about with FCPX. For my work it doesn't fit in but it doesn't matter. I can't use it as a finishing tool the way I did with FCS3 but at least I can now advise editors that there is a two way bridge to the island.

I am definitely moving on to CS6 and possibly Smoke with da Vinci as primary grading system and going to Win 7 and building my own boxes to get best grunt and value.

I am happy for Apple to continue on, it just means we part company after eight years. In a way I am happy that this whole matter has fired up credible opposition and also widened the hardware choices. Ultimately I want editors to have the best tools for them to create and also be able to deliver down the pipeline so I can do the finishing without convoluted workflows that cost money and translate poorly. I still think Apple should take greater responsibility for exporting standard formats like EDL, AAF and OMF.


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John HeagyRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 8:57:42 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I can't use it as a finishing tool the way I did with FCS3..."

Is weak audio mixing and lack of tape I/O keeping you from using FCPX as a finishing tool?


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Michael GissingRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:52:36 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I can't use it as a finishing tool the way I did with FCS3..."

Is weak audio mixing and lack of tape I/O keeping you from using FCPX as a finishing tool?

No. Most of my jobs come from FCP 6 or 7 or AVID. So they open in FCP7 (via Automatic Duck for AVID). They are sent to Color for grading and when I then add back in text it is correct.

I always need to have multiple sequence open to cut and paste between as there is always multiple deliverables required for every job. From there I add final mixes in from the Fairlight so audio in the NLE is simple. Obviously I need to route the audio out via the Kona3 to the correct channels on the HDCam & digi beta. The Kona output must be correctly synced to an external reference as I output to multiple decks.

Yes I know I can output a file from X and use another program to output to tape. Such workarounds are neither desirable or necesary as there really is nothing in X that does the job easier or better than FCS3 is doing at the moment. I do see CS6 as offering a better tool for broadcast finishing than FCS3 but X just isn't designed for that sort of work.


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Michael GissingRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 12:03:22 am

And I should also add that any NLE that didn't allow me to set incremental autosaves is unusable for anything. Automatically overwriting a project in a non adjustable way is crazy useless.


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John HeagyRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:00:10 am

[Michael Gissing] "Most of my jobs come from FCP 6 or 7 or AVID. So they open in FCP7 (via Automatic Duck for AVID). They are sent to Color for grading and when I then add back in text it is correct. "

Thanks for detailing your reasons for not using FCPX. I'll always be quick to ask for details when the word "can't" is used. I find in most cases "won't" is more accurate. Not to knock your reasons, I'm just eager to learn from others any potential deal breakers that might apply to our workflow.

For us ProRes QT is a big reason to hope FCPX will meet our needs. There will never be a better NLE for editing ProRes QT than FCPX unless Adobe embraces AV Foundation. That will never happen unless Apple releases AV Foundation for Windows. Right now Adobe and AVID are suck with 32bit QT APIs.

We are communicating our desires for both FCPX and AV Foundation to Apple. We are happy with the improvements so far. Much work is still required and seeing our requests included in future updates is what we are looking for next.

John


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Michael GissingRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:06:57 am

John, it is worth playing with DNxHD. In many ways it is as good as ProRes and cross platform. Lots of location recording devices like Atomos, Blackmagic and Sound Devices support both DNx and ProRes.

I have the DNxHD codecs on my Mac and so far it seems to work in FCP 7 OK. Not sure if FCPX can use the DNxHD codecs. ProRes is great but there is an alternative.


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John HeagyRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:37:13 pm

[Michael Gissing] "John, it is worth playing with DNxHD."

We have and found if far harder to encode. This is why Arri didn't offer 120fps initially in DNxHDx on the Alexa.

We get 10bit quality at 140Mb with ProRes(SQ) but would need to go up to DNxHDx 220 for 10bit.

It's cross platform but mainly via Avid's QT codec so were back to relying on the QT 32bit API.

The fact that DNxHD is an open standard is appealing, but encode and storage efficiencies for the same quality go to ProRes.

It's not that we can't use DNxHD, tho I think that's essentially the case in FCPX, we really don't want to.

What I'd really like is ProRes.mxf which Avid conjured up but that's under lock and key unless Apple embraces it.

I see ProRes and FCPX being linked so that's another reason I'd like to see FCPX flourish.


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:57:11 pm

[John Heagy] "What I'd really like is ProRes.mxf which Avid conjured up but that's under lock and key unless Apple embraces it."

It's not exactly "conjured". This exists because Avid licensed it from Apple. MXF is Avid's native wrapper format, so you can either directly use AMA-linked ProRes QT files or transcode to MXF. In the case of the latter, the file is merely rewrapped and the codec is maintained as native ProRes without any conversion. The limitation Apple has placed on Avid with this is that Windows machines cannot encode back to ProRes.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John HeagyRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:56:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It's not exactly "conjured". This exists because Avid licensed it from Apple."

The codec yes, but creating an mxf wrapper for ProRes was all Avid.


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Walter SoykaRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:12:28 pm

[John Heagy] "For us ProRes QT is a big reason to hope FCPX will meet our needs. There will never be a better NLE for editing ProRes QT than FCPX unless Adobe embraces AV Foundation. That will never happen unless Apple releases AV Foundation for Windows. Right now Adobe and AVID are suck with 32bit QT APIs."

Let me rephrase this -- "Apple has stuck Adobe and Avid with 32-bit QuickTime APIs."

Behold, the ProRes hegemony.

The rest of the industry is trending toward openness. Apple is the holdout, and they are leveraging infrastructures built around the ProRes to keep themselves in contention where their product offerings themselves may fall short (as you have outlined above).

Nobody liked Microsoft when they did stuff like this in the nineties. I'm curious to see how the industry as a whole will treat electronic delivery over the coming years now that the FCP7/FCPX Sturm und Drang has made everyone acutely aware of how dependent we were on a single closed supplier.

Our intermediates and masters are just simply too important to be controlled by a dictator we had all assumed was benevolent.

I must still often deliver ProRes, but I'm finding that doesn't mean I have to work in ProRes.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dennis RadekeRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 9:56:08 pm

[John Heagy] "For us ProRes QT is a big reason to hope FCPX will meet our needs. There will never be a better NLE for editing ProRes QT than FCPX unless Adobe embraces AV Foundation"

Walter nailed it below(above?) and I think it's worth noting that Premiere Pro CS5/5.5/6 edit Pro-Res as good or better than FCP7 even with a 32-bit QT API. What you gain in openness with Adobe in workflows is significant.

We'll of course gladly support you whether it's just After Effects and Photoshop or a larger portion of the Adobe tool set in the future.

Best,
Dennis


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Steve ConnorRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 5, 2012 at 10:26:44 am

[Dennis Radeke] "Walter nailed it below(above?) and I think it's worth noting that Premiere Pro CS5/5.5/6 edit Pro-Res as good or better than FCP7 even with a 32-bit QT API. What you gain in openness with Adobe in workflows is significant."

I'm afraid that's not my experience at all, I find my copy of CS5 isn't very responsive with Prores files, certainly not as good as FCP7. I'm hoping this is much improved in CS6

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 5, 2012 at 1:53:48 pm

[Steve Connor] "I'm afraid that's not my experience at all, I find my copy of CS5 isn't very responsive with Prores files, certainly not as good as FCP7. I'm hoping this is much improved in CS6"

Might be a CS5 versus CS5.5 issue. I find ProRes very responsive in CS5.5. There are visible performance improvements in CS5 versus CS 5.5. No different than FCP 7. OTOH, AVC-Intra is the codec that works like butter in CS5.5.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 5, 2012 at 2:04:26 pm

[Oliver Peters] "OTOH, AVC-Intra is the codec that works like butter in CS5.5."

+100

I find that all I-frame MXF (a la P2) formats work swimmingly in Premiere, even on lower power machines that are non-CUDA.

It avoids Qt, and in the case of AVC-I is 10 bit.

Adobe Media Encoder can gladly transcode to p2 compliant AVC-I MXF files.

Jeremy


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 5, 2012 at 2:31:35 pm

I should add, ironically, when you edit with "cheaper" codecs you will need more computer just to play these back.


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Greg AndonianRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:28:04 am

Apple should have continued developing the track-based FCPX shown in that image that was floating around before, then added a magnetic timeline "mode" on top of it. Then people could work whicever way they prefer and ease into the new way of thinking.

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:30:37 am

[Carsten Orlt] "That is my story. What is yours?
"


Very well said! I don't think you need to worry about FCP X changing direction too much, because it very much IS what it is, and any change aimed at making it more in line with traditional NLEs would have to be much more than cosmetic.

I've pretty much accepted that it isn't for me as my tier one NLE, but I can easily see using it for certain kinds of things, and I can imagine projects where it would be the best choice, though they are not the kind of projects I generally work on.

Hopefully, the changes that do get made will be more reflective of the kind of things YOU need, and not as an attempt to win people like me over. Things like a better back-up system and a slightly better way to handle and split apart audio. I'll never be completely happy with it without tracks, but I agree with you, and don't think it should be mercilessly mutated into something that appeases me but takes the ease of use away from you.


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Mark RaudonisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:30:49 am

[Carsten Orlt] "That is my story. What is yours?
"


My story has a different ending.

In my world (The Real World), there are many people all contributing to the story. It's as if everyone in Starbucks is all working on the same screenplay on their laptops at the same time! The key is collaboration, and so far, "X" has NOT demonstrated this as a priority. FCP 7 is a proven entity in this area. Does"X" even work in a shared storage, workgroup environment, with multiple editors all working on the same material?

So, say all you want about simplicity and "stay the course", but for me, and anyone else in a similar situation, "X" is not currently up to the task.

Mark



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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:53:14 am

[Mark Raudonis] "In my world (The Real World)"

What do you mean by 'The Real World Mark?

Cheers
Carsten


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Carsten OrltRe: sorry got it.
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:19:14 am

It's the show your working on.


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Mark RaudonisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:27:43 am

Literally, "The Real World" on MTV.

Mari



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Tim WilsonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:50:49 am

[Mark Raudonis] "Literally, "The Real World" on MTV."

Mark is the Senior Vice President of Post Production at Bunim/Murray, the reality TV production giants that created and produce The Real World, Project Runway, Keeping Up With the Khardassians, and others. With more than 100 seats, working on 10 shows with staggering amounts of footage, collaboration and other aspects of hard-core workflow are pretty big deals.

He wrote a great article about his year-long quest to map out Bunim/Murray's next steps after FCP for Creative COW Magazine, called "'Real World' Editing: From Avid to FCP and Back Again." Highly recommended reading for a unique perspective from a careful, considerate guy who is anything but a knee-jerk hatah. And, as you might expect, he's a terrific storyteller too.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 1:04:23 am

Wow. After just reading some of these responses I couldn't resist an account and jump in the ring.

For those of you that are still wrapped up in bashing the software - you have every right to speak your mind. But for heavens sake leave the OP alone! Does the idea of him switching NLE's really make you this angry to the point of coming on here a year after the release and cutting apart someone that has an open mind to it and that it is working for?

And Carsten - Don't listen to any of this noise. If it works for you - amazing. Amongst many NLE related applications, I too use X regularly and it has given me far more creative freedom than I could have imaged in any of the other NLE's, many of which I still love and use on a daily basis when required by clients. At the end of the day if your final product is better because you were able to utilize X to your advantage, than you'd be an idiot not to use it. And quite frankly, this industry could use to be turned on its head in terms of the content that is coming out. Look at the type of content that has been referenced here today. The Real World. Keeping Up with the kardashians... etc. Such wonderfully crafted, intelligent programming. If FCP X does nothing else than piss off the editors of these and many other TERRIBLE shows, than that's Okay in my books. When the cohen brothers started cutting on Legacy, they were the rebels... everyone one else was AVID... and as legend has it eventually many others jumped on board. I think the world could use more editors like you that are out to tell a story with even more substance than kim kardashians fat ass may have.


Bottom line, you all have many more choices in the NLE world than you did last year. At much cheaper prices and with easier access. So please just get back to work on whatever software works for you and stop bickering already. Nobody cares that you don't like apples business model.. wah wah, poor you. You're Mr. big time reality show editor right? Don't you have better things to do a year after the release than whine and complain relentlessly? Or are you just scared that X is making 15 year old skateboarders edit circles around you on their macbook airs while popping kick flips. Hate on those that support X all you want, but at the end of the day if they cut their next oscar winning doc on it, and you're watching their acceptance speech while stuck in a dingy basement with 10 of your avid buddies cutting the next episode of the real world - who's the real winner.


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 1:26:40 am

Kid--because I assume you are one--slamming other people's work is just not the way to go. I also want to point out that its pretty clear from your comments that you have a rather naive and incomplete view of heavy production demands. I sympathize with you for wanting to stand up for Carsten, but why exactly you'd want to use to a greater degree the same tactics you are complaining about, and aim them at a party who has had little part in this conversation is beyond me.

I see that you just joined to make this one brash comment. Are you that impassioned? Or are you hiding behind a faux account? Either way, your comments are childish.


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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 1:49:33 am

I really am that passionate when I see someone ridiculed for something as trivial as using an NLE. I've been on this forum almost religiously since it launched and not once did I feel the need to comment until today. Yes I created an account for it.

And no, I'm not a kid... Although sometimes I wish I still were. Kids have an infinite amount of creativity and I think we could all learn a thing or two from them on a fundamental level. Not surprising that the vast majority of the youth prefer X. These are the editors that will replace us in not too many years. You'd be surprised at the talent that is out there.. Take a break from here and cruise on over to vimeo.

It seems to be that you're called an amateur here unless you whip our your you know what and start beating your chest to the tune of how experienced you are. So here goes: I've been cutting for 12 years. I have spent 7 of those years in mid sized facilities, one being offline and the other online based. I've dealt with very complex workflows for many shows similar to the ones I was bashing earlier. And OBVIOUSLY I understand why people are annoyed. But to this degree?? Come on! I'm a sarcastic guy and I apologize if you took my comments the wrong way. Just trying to give the haters a bit of their own medicine.


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Michael GissingRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:02:10 am

Mike, I think that there are very few real haters just as there are few actual fanboys. Too often people jump to those labels.

My take on the majority of the posters here is that they are certainly strong and definite in opinion but at the end of the day we just aren't that in love or hate with a piece of software or a particular company.

So lets keep the comments to software & hardware and not trash talk about who is the most professional or the greatest fanboy/hater.


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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:06:12 am

Wise words, kind sir. Very much in agreement.


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:07:35 am

[Mike Stevenson] "Not surprising that the vast majority of the youth prefer X."

Based on what information? I teach college film students in an annual editing workshop. This year (I still used 7), the main interest would have been for Media Composer, if they'd had a choice.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:32:24 am

Based on nothing. You are right.


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Andrew KimeryRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:18:01 am

Really not coming out w/your best foot forward, Mike. ;)

First off, Mark, the guy you bashed, never bashed Carsten. Secondly, Mark is one of the most level headed, pragmatic people here. Finally, you call out the Coen Brothers for being trailblazers, yet Mark moved Bunim/Murray (the same company you kept bashing) from Avid to FCP years ago at a time when no one thought FCP was up to the task. In an unscripted world ruled by Avid, Mark and his team showed that FCP could excel in a very demanding environment (100+ seats, thousands of hours of footage, etc.,) on broadcast deadlines.

If you want to thank people for pushing boundaries and taking chances when other people are going "Oh, that's never going to work" you need to be thanking people like Mark.


As an aside, IMO, if any film editor should get credit for pioneering with FCP it should be Walter Murch.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:34:38 am

I will agree that you know far more about Bunim/Murray than I.

And as I mentioned earlier, what I said about the reality series was SARCASTIC and that I TOO have worked on very similar programming. Although I am thankful to have left that end of the industry now. A personal preference, not bashing anyone.


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Christian SchumacherRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:06:23 am

[Mike Stevenson] "Or are you just scared that X is making 15 year old skateboarders edit circles around you on their macbook airs while popping kick flips. Hate on those that support X all you want, but at the end of the day if they cut their next oscar winning doc on it, and you're watching their acceptance speech"

Wondering how that is going to be:

- Thanks, dude...[holds prize] How cool is that...Hey, I wanna thank Sky-rider...ahemm...D-Road...err...Psyco-path, definitely Psyco-path my man...don't wanna forget anyone, but it's tough ya know? [crowd laughs] Lemme see...Oh! My ipad! Without it this wouldn't be possible. [throws fist in the air] Thank you, Apple! [crowd cheers]


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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:35:47 am

HAHAHA! A writer - editor we have here I see.


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Greg AndonianRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:15:54 am

Carsten Orlt A lot of discussion here is also about native format support. I understand if you have fast turnarounds you like the fact that nothing needs to be transcoded initially (eventually it will). When you work for month on a single project I couldn't care less about a few nights the computer humming away to get footage transcoded. Again exactly what FCPx does best. Ingest fast to get going and transcode in background. So mercury engine is cool but not necessary.

The Mercury Engine isn't what allows Premiere to edit natively. Premiere has had native support for DVCProHD since CS3. The purpose of the Mercury Engine is to accelerate playback performance- which does improve playback of highly-compressed footage, but also allows for things like real-time chroma keying, which are pretty useful.

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 8:45:31 am

[Carsten Orlt] "Now why the subject line? Because I honestly think that FCPx is a great story telling tool! No it's not the super app that does your multi million dollar VFX as well. Nor is it the DAW that has unlimited tracks and buses etc. And thank god it is not!!! And I hope it'll never be! And I can't stress this enough.

Why do I say this? Because my prime work is to tell a story. I have the odd super or still graphic to include and I do a little audio sweetening for rough or fine cut presentation or if I need to put something on the net. Same goes for CC. FCPx can exactly do that for me and do it in a very clever and easy to understand way, and without a hundred menus and buttons I will never use."


The whole "storyteller" and "artist" paradigm is getting overplayed, and tired. It's straight out of the 'Stereotypes R Us' catalog. Do you wear a beret when you edit?
From that couple of paragraphs, I can only imagine you are either 80 years old, and with so few years left you don't think your career will advance beyond your current needs before you assume room temp...
Or
Your career path is pretty much YT, or Vimeo art/hobby pieces, and you don't see a future where anything other than the basics, or any type of collaborative effort will be required. Sort of like a video version of Lomography.


[Carsten Orlt] " Sure you can do everything you want in FCP7..."
Well that is not necessarily true. While you can do a lot with FCS, it's pretty easy to max it out. If you want to native edit with footage that is over 4k in frame size, you will have to go somewhere else. If you need more than 99 audio, or video tracks, you will ether have to bake or use a different app. Lots of editors have FCS, AE, ProTools and Smoke on their machines. I like Final Cut, but it really isn't all that difficult, or high end. Try learning Maya, Lightwave or Blender.


[Carsten Orlt] "No it's not the super app that does your multi million dollar VFX as well. Nor is it the DAW that has unlimited tracks and buses etc. And thank god it is not!!! And I hope it'll never be! And I can't stress this enough."

[Carsten Orlt] "Always great to come back here and read all the things people are passionate about. Only downside is sometimes this nasty 'my way or the highway' crap.."

These two statements seem to be in direct conflict. You desire that X should never be anything other than some generic, entry level type tool because that's your speed, so does that me everyone else has to suffer?

I'm glad that X meets all your current, and future needs. What does that say? Think about that. X hasn't even been out for a year.
I guess it must be hard for you to understand that there are those of us out there that need, want, and can handle a lot more horsepower than X will ever deliver. And that we have some pretty big investments tied to the apple brand, in both hardware and software, and in that respect apple has let us down, and failed to meet our expectations. This is why we are passionate about this. As a someone that uses FCS, I don't give a rats ass about X, iMovie, or even Express. Had apple continued with FCS, and simply introduced X into the mix, there wouldn't be an issue.
Where you, and others like you make your big mistake is acting like those of us that were expecting FCP8, or FCS4 and didn't get it, want to take your toys away. I've never understood this. No one said anything like that. This is a straw man created by fanboys to defend, the undefendable.
Long before movie hero came along there was FC Express, and iMovie. A couple of aps that didn't have "hundred menus and buttons I will never use", to use your words. These were perfectly suited for the dilettantes, or hobbyists that wanted to play TV. In all the hundreds (and perhaps thousands) of posts where working editors were pining for this and that to be included in the next version of FCP, you will not find ANY where those that need a full blown editing tool wished to take away choices from those that don't need anything more than iMovie, or Express.
But therein lies the difference.
Where once there were three choices (iMovie, Express and FCP) for editing in the apple world, now there is one. And apple says, if that doesn't suit you, too bad, so sad.
And for this you're thankful? I don't get that. So you're perfectly happy to support and defend apple, after it has told the folks that helped get them to where they're at (sales and development wise), we don't need you, are not going to support you anymore, and you no longer have a choice.
Apple says jump, and the only question the fanboys ask is "how high"? But there are a few of us that refuse to be cattle driven off the edge of the cliff.
IMO, if anything sounds like "nasty my way, or the highway crap", it is the no notice EOL of FCP, and Express by your beloved apple, leaving the users with X and iMovie being the only choices, other than to migrate. That is ironic.
As I said before, no one in this, or any other forum ever once suggested taking away your storytelling tools, but you seem to be perfectly OK with the loss of ours. After all, your subject line says "Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please".
So we bitched about the loss of our tools, the loss of choice, lack of notice, and get zero support from folks like yourself. Besides being perplexed by this attitude, I find it quite distasteful how so many fans of X are not just unsympathetic to the situation other editors and business owners find themselves in, but that they seem to be quite happy about it.
What the heck? As long as you have what you want, who cares about the rest of us? Right?
There are lots of reasons why you should care, but I'll just pick one.
Past performance is the best indicator of future behavior. They killed Final Cut Server, Shake, Final Cut Express, and of course Final Cut Studio. Some day they'll kill X too, and leave all the X users high and dry. And they will probably do it without any notice, and when it's the least convenient for you. And when it happens, you'll probably have to migrate to not only a new NLE, but a new OS and new hardware. And by then, maybe you'll have some legacy projects you might need to open, and can't. Or the codec that all your material is in, won't run on your new system, etc...
That is the day you will see when this stuff happens to you, why it's not very lulzy. And when that day comes, I bet you won't be posting any 'thank you apple' notices either.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Jules bowmanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 10:12:21 am

That was a thoroughly enjoyable and well articulated read. It should be a full stop at the end of the Debate, but sadly it won't be. Anyway, cheers Scott.


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David CherniackRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:01:56 am

Well and passionately put, Scott.

I would question if FCPX will ever be up to main stream high-end use. I do believe that Apple probably intends to get there but on its own terms. However NLEs are the most complex applications in computerdom and it would take them a number of years (possibly 3, as many as 5) before they could even hope to regain a footing as a player in the high end. In that time, of course the competition won't be standing still. And both Adobe and Autodesk and even Avid have superb engineering and the freedom to develop innovative technology that Apple, perhaps, as primarily an 'experience' company, doesn't have. What great applications have they ever developed in house from scratch? Even the non-application OSX is derived from elsewhere.

So I'm not convinced that despite what I perceive as their intentions, that they'll again be a major player in the higher end of the industry. They made their bed with FCPX and the use categories it serves, and that will most certainly spill over into the high end here and there, but will they ever be a fixed point around which most of the industry revolves? I very much doubt it.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Andrew RichardsRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:29:15 pm

[David Cherniack] "NLEs are the most complex applications in computerdom."

I taught myself FCP, but stuff like AutoCAD and Maya is waaaaay more complex. Full-featured NLEs aren't trivial, but they aren't the most complex software out there by a long shot.

[David Cherniack] "What great applications have they ever developed in house from scratch? Even the non-application OSX is derived from elsewhere. "

I guess it depends on your definition of "great", but for OS X's part, the engineers that built it at NeXT went to work at Apple and turned it into OS X, so it isn't like Apple didn't have or doesn't now have top-teir engineering talent. Autodesk didn't develop Smoke, they bought Discreet. After Effects originated outside Adobe. Avid acquired DS. What's the difference?

I agree Apple's priorities are clearly different than those of the other Big A's, but let's keep things in perspective. I'm assuming by "high-end" you are referring to studio feature motion pictures and broadcast episodic TV. FCP was dominant below that, and arguably still punching above its weight class when it was used to win the last two Oscars for editing.

FCP had only recently broken into the high-end by the time it was scuttled, Premiere Pro has yet to achieve the same cachet (and it looks like it will soon), and the rest of editing's high-end has been dominated by Avid since the NLE replaced the flatbed.

Best,
Andy


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:39:06 pm

"FCP had only recently broken into the high-end by the time it was scuttled, Premiere Pro has yet to achieve the same cachet (and it looks like it will soon), and the rest of editing's high-end has been dominated by Avid since the NLE replaced the flatbed."

I think you have to keep in mind that generally, film editors at the top of their game aren't necessarily interested in changing applications each time something new comes out. Many aren't computer power users to begin with. Regardless, they are hired for their talent and not the ability to manipulate software. So for many, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

FCP "legacy" was a good hybrid of the old and new at a low cost, so it got traction. Precisely because it wasn't completely locked down was what made it malleable in a number of different workflows that put it "above its weight class". With X, Apple has chosen to ignore many of the familiar features with the trade-off of adding a lot of new ones. Some folks will gravitate to those and other won't.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David CherniackRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:16:25 pm

[Andrew Richards] "I taught myself FCP, but stuff like AutoCAD and Maya is waaaaay more complex. Full-featured NLEs aren't trivial, but they aren't the most complex software out there by a long shot."

We may be talking about two different things, Andrew. I'm talking about the difficulties in authoring, not in learning/using. As such I'll stand by my claim. NLE's must do a wide variety of tasks for a wide variety of uses and users. They must interface with the analogue world of a wide spectrum of hardware. I can't imagine that any 3D software, as complex as they are to learn and use, is as complex to write. But maybe one of the Adobe engineers who respond to questions here could venture an opinion without bias.

[Andrew Richards] "I guess it depends on your definition of "great", but for OS X's part, the engineers that built it at NeXT went to work at Apple and turned it into OS X, so it isn't like Apple didn't have or doesn't now have top-teir engineering talent. Autodesk didn't develop Smoke, they bought Discreet. After Effects originated outside Adobe. Avid acquired DS. What's the difference?"

A fair point about OSX requiring good engineering ('great' would depend on your pov but I'll grant you that :). Autodesk absorbed the discreet engineering team, but Autocad was almost completely developed in house. Adobe developed PremierePro completely in house. But point out a 'major' app (other than OSX)that Apple developed from the ground up.

[Andrew Richards] " Premiere Pro has yet to achieve the same cachet (and it looks like it will soon)"

It seems Adobe is fully committed to competing at the high end. I think we'll see some good uptake this year and when their media management rivals Avid's they'll be well positioned.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Andrew RichardsRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:39:35 pm

[David Cherniack] "We may be talking about two different things, Andrew. I'm talking about the difficulties in authoring, not in learning/using. As such I'll stand by my claim. NLE's must do a wide variety of tasks for a wide variety of uses and users. They must interface with the analogue world of a wide spectrum of hardware. I can't imagine that any 3D software, as complex as they are to learn and use, is as complex to write"

I'm certainly not qualified to adjudicate that either.

[David Cherniack] "But point out a 'major' app (other than OSX) that Apple developed from the ground up. "

There is Xcode, which is arguably the most important app that Apple develops (at least from Apple's perspective). There is also Safari, or more importantly the Webkit engine it runs on. I intentionally left out Motion and Aperture, as they might not qualify as "major".

[David Cherniack] "It seems Adobe is fully committed to competing at the high end. I think we'll see some good uptake this year and when their media management rivals Avid's they'll be well positioned."

I agree- they seem to be at that momentum tipping point FCP was at around FCP5. I doubt they will unseat Avid as the king of studio features and episodic TV, but it will fill most of the vacuum left by FCP7.

Best,
Andy


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Bill DavisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:15:30 am

[Andrew Richards] "I agree- they seem to be at that momentum tipping point FCP was at around FCP5. I doubt they will unseat Avid as the king of studio features and episodic TV, but it will fill most of the vacuum left by FCP7.

Best,
Andy
"


The monster question in the room is whether those industries will remain what drives success in editing software.

Studio features and episodic TV have traditionally been the top of the heap. But I noted some months back the story of an extremely sharp and camera friendly young intern who works on the local TV show where my wife does a regular segment who literally dismissed an offer to go on salary at the TV station because she just didn't feel TV was the place to be. She wanted a career in web development because she was firmly convinced that's where the eyeballs of her generation were largely going to be served over her lifetime. Broadcast had no "cachet" for her.

That's the elephant in the room. I believe the other A's already see that and are adding to those capabilities fast - but as long as their teams are focused on winning broadcast or TV shop share away from Legacy - and relying on the hope of a halo effect from being the best tool for a 100 editor reality show empire - well, how's that going to influence those "new media" youngsters like her that will grow into the power seats in the next decade or so?

Tactics have to serve strategy after all. And catering to the elephant riders is a risky business plan when large numbers of people are electing to ride smaller and smaller beasts.

Just food for thought.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:41:50 am

[Bill Davis] "That's the elephant in the room. "

Bill, its not an elephant in the room. It IS the room. And figuring out how to best use that room has been occupying studio and network minds for at least a decade and a half. I don't know why you think big media people aren't paying attention to this. I was going to AFI new media convergence seminars back in the last century. You may or may not have noticed but our two most recent labor disputes were over issues related to this very subject. You constantly talk as if we in film and television are somehow oblivious to the Internet. That might have had some cachet in 1993, but trust me, we've moved on.

And you keep talking about how X is somehow key to this whole thing. I don't get that. I mean other than classifying it as wishful thinking on your part. It just ain't that special.


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Bill DavisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:32:45 am

B>[Chris Harlan] "I was going to AFI new media convergence seminars back in the last century. You may or may not have noticed but our two most recent labor disputes were over issues related to this very subject. You constantly talk as if we in film and television are somehow oblivious to the Internet. That might have had some cachet in 1993, but trust me, we've moved on."

Geez, dude. Your slip may not be, but you're arrogance is showing. In your world the only editor worth listening to is one who can drop by an AFI "new media convergence seminar" at the drop of a hat. Or for whom unionization is a functional issue.

News flash. Over the globe, that's a fraction of a fraction of the people who edit for money. Some for a LOT of money.

And for sure, let's not tell the poor folks outside LA, NY, Chicago, and London that they're just dismissible rubes - might make them feel like their editing isn't REAL editing, okay?

[Chris Harlan] "And you keep talking about how X is somehow key to this whole thing. I don't get that. I mean other than classifying it as wishful thinking on your part. It just ain't that special.
"


Well Chris, if you're correct and what's happening in editing is "just ain't that special" - then this whole forum is a waste of time. Isn't it.

We've spent a year talking about what X and it's competitors strategies might be for the future -and what that might mean to ALL editors. Not just those who have Broadcast Engineering sitting on the coffee table in the waiting room of their stand-alone production building.

You actually amaze me with your single-minded focus that all "worthwhile" editing must be what's done by people just like you.

And screw the poor saps working everywhere else. Anything that meets their needs, but not yours is crap. I get it now.

I'll get right to work on a new T-shirt for you. "If you don't cut in LA, you don't really count.'

I'm sure you'll wear it with tremendous pride.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 7:14:09 am

[Bill Davis] "Geez, dude. Your slip may not be, but you're arrogance is showing."

What? Because I went to film school? Because I edit for a living? Because I engage in continued education?


[Bill Davis] "In your world the only editor worth listening to is one who can drop by an AFI "new media convergence seminar" at the drop of a hat. Or for whom unionization is a functional issue. "

THAT conclusion is completely in your head, not from anything I said. I can't even figure out how you've arrived at it. And, yeah, film and television production is one of our local industries? Is that somehow a problem for you?

[Bill Davis] "News flash. Over the globe, that's a fraction of a fraction of the people who edit for money. Some for a LOT of money."

Yeah, but News Flash, pal. YOU were the one who was talking about the broadcast industry. You brought it up. So don't get all "news flash" when all I'm doing is responding to you. Maybe YOU should stop fixating on it so much.

[Bill Davis] "And for sure, let's not tell the poor folks outside LA, NY, Chicago, and London that they're just dismissible rubes - might make them feel like their editing isn't REAL editing, okay?
"


Again--totally out of context, and completely unfair, like many of your posts. That's horrible cr@p to put in my mouth, and doesn't reflect anything that I've said. Now or ever on this site.


[Bill Davis] "Well Chris, if you're correct and what's happening in editing is "just ain't that special" - then this whole forum is a waste of time. Isn't it.
"


Again, no relation to what I was talking about or what I said. This forum has been very useful to me and a lot of other people. I was simply addressing the fact the you seem rather convinced that FCP X has some sort of secret sauce for the next generation of editors, and that I don't see it. It's FCP X that "ain't that special," not what's happening in editing.


[Bill Davis] "We've spent a year talking about what X and it's competitors strategies might be for the future -and what that might mean to ALL editors. Not just those who have Broadcast Engineering sitting on the coffee table in the waiting room of their stand-alone production building.
"


I don't even know what this means, or what it has to do with me. Again, YOU broached the subject.


[Bill Davis] "You actually amaze me with your single-minded focus that all "worthwhile" editing must be what's done by people just like you.
"


Again, your projection from your head. You don't have to look any further than this actual thread to find evidence that your assessment of me isn't true. Just read my earlier response to Carsten, and you'll see how completely out of line you are.


[Bill Davis] "And screw the poor saps working everywhere else. Anything that meets their needs, but not yours is crap. I get it now."

Wow. I think what's particularly funny about your method, is that you have no compunction what-so-ever about making statements up and attributing them to me. That way I don't actually have to say something you loathe, you can just put the words in my mouth and growl away at me.

[Bill Davis] "I'll get right to work on a new T-shirt for you. "If you don't cut in LA, you don't really count.'

I'm sure you'll wear it with tremendous pride.
"


Oh, dude; go to bed.


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Bill DavisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 8:24:14 am

[Chris Harlan] "[Bill Davis] "Geez, dude. Your slip may not be, but you're arrogance is showing."

What? Because I went to film school? Because I edit for a living? Because I engage in continued education?
"


No, because you have a single focus and point of view in these discussions. You purport to represent the "hollywood industrial view" and you do so consistently and clearly by your own writing.

You're the one who invoked AFI seminars and unionization as part of your foundational construct of what constitutes "professional" editing. You used that as a bit of a cudgel to try to make my initial post seem like it was coming from someone who didn't "get" the fact that what I'm arguing for is already so widely incorporated in global editing that X's propagation of it in a low priced tool is dismissible.

I think you're dead wrong in that assessment and it's evidence that you're out of touch with other editing requirements that don't dovetail with your parochial experience in Hollywood.

So it's completely fair for me to point out that your thinking might be every bit as skewed as the thinking of someone like me who isn't saddled with the "industry town" mindset that you espouse.

I'm suggesting readers here consider how new tools like FCP-X might impact an editor who works in the larger arena. You're often trashing it as "not a big deal" largely because you elevate workflows in which it doesn't excel (primarily precisely those large company workflows that hollywood values) and thereby skewing the discussion away form what may well be more universal concerns for working editors in a larger and more ecumenical pool.

I believe that's a completely fair criticism of your posts above.

The readership here will determine for themselves whether my points are valid and whether their experiences better match mine or yours.

Simple as that.

BTW, I wasn't lucky enough to do the film school thing. We hicks out her in Arizona were lucky to get "Radio and Television Broadcasting" in College. So I got sucked into Radio to start my career. But I can likely go toe to toe with you in aggregate hours in the editors chair and "continuing education" in the modern era must be a push since nobody survives without it on the planet as fast as things move today.

Heck, without "continuing education" I likely wouldn't be in the Techniques forum so much trying to help other understand how to operate many of the functions of X they have trouble grasping. So I suppose while I don't have someone tracking my CE credits, I'm doing just fine in that area too!

I only point this out as part of the larger theme that just because you're in Hollywood, don't think there's not some editor in Cleveland who, without the benefits you enjoy of the seat in the "company town" surrounding you - might still be every bit as skilled an editor of the two of us combined.

And if the next editor gets there via X, instead of Legacy, PPro or a Steenbeck, so what?

That's the real point of all this.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:07:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "No, because you have a single focus and point of view in these discussions. You purport to represent the "hollywood industrial view" and you do so consistently and clearly by your own writing.
"


That's a lie, Bill. The only thing I've ever purported to represent is my own personal work experience. I've never claimed to represent anybody's pov other than the people I work with or talk to. You do the exact same thing, in fact far more so than I do. Aren't you always cutting something in some client's lobby.

[Bill Davis] "You're the one who invoked AFI seminars and unionization as part of your foundational construct of what constitutes "professional" editing."

Are you crazy? Are you drunk? How did you even get to that? Invoked? Foundational construct? How is mentioning AFI or the fact that two nasty labor disputes were centered on digital/Internet delivery issues of any significance? Is it name-dropping to you? Well, you just spent weeks detailing your experiences at NAB. What is it that makes you able to throw that name around?

[Bill Davis] "You used that as a bit of a cudgel to try to make my initial post seem like it was coming from someone who didn't "get" the fact that what I'm arguing for is already so widely incorporated in global editing that X's propagation of it in a low priced tool is dismissible."

Again, huh? You were going on about "elephant's in the room," and "studios" and "broadcast." I was simply making the point that is was NOT an elephant in the room, and hasn't been for a long time. As far as YOU accusing me of accusing someone of not getting it, that's got to be the biggest joke of the week. I know of no one else, Bill, who throws around that "you're just too out of it to get it" meme as often as you.


[Bill Davis] "I think you're dead wrong in that assessment and it's evidence that you're out of touch with other editing requirements that don't dovetail with your parochial experience in Hollywood.
"


I'm certainly less familiar with the requirements and/or demands of things that aren't part of my work routine. Isn't everybody? Aren't you?

[Bill Davis] "So it's completely fair for me to point out that your thinking might be every bit as skewed as the thinking of someone like me who isn't saddled with the "industry town" mindset that you espouse.
"


How completely fair of you to judge yourself as being completely fair.

[Bill Davis] "I'm suggesting readers here consider how new tools like FCP-X might impact an editor who works in the larger arena. You're often trashing it as "not a big deal" largely because you elevate workflows in which it doesn't excel (primarily precisely those large company workflows that hollywood values) and thereby skewing the discussion away form what may well be more universal concerns for working editors in a larger and more ecumenical pool.
"


No. I'm often a one-man band, and I like tools that let me easily deliver the things that I'm required to deliver. BTW, for someone who drones on and on about their super-big time corporate clients, tv spots, and national campaigns, how exactly do YOU become Mr. Ecumenical?


[Bill Davis] " believe that's a completely fair criticism of your posts above.
"


Okay. And I believe that your head is in a place that, if you were wearing a headlamp, you'd have a clear view of your lower intestines.


[Bill Davis] "The readership here will determine for themselves whether my points are valid and whether their experiences better match mine or yours.
"


Okay. As to commenting on the rest? What's the point? I think you're fighting your own demons here, Bill, and you just stuck my face on 'em.


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+4


Jim GibertiRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:10:53 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think you're fighting your own demons here, Bill, and you just stuck my face on 'em."

You mean you're actually trapped on that ornament Chris?
Damn you Bill, release him now!


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 7:32:23 pm

[Jim Giberti] "
You mean you're actually trapped on that ornament Chris?"


Yes. Yes! Since Christmas!!!


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 8:38:47 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Jim Giberti] "
You mean you're actually trapped on that ornament Chris?"

Yes. Yes! Since Christmas!!!

"


Oh, you know how it is. You go and get yourself a nice plastic tree. It looks great, and feels real. Then the holidays are over, but you want to keep the spirit alive a little bit. Its plastic, no harm. You get busy. Life intrudes. Its August. The tree's still up. But, heck--Thanksgiving is just around the corner, and nobody's called Child Services, so it stays up.

Its like that. Plus, its sooo Hollywood. Tinsel and all.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 11:11:51 am

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2135/12119137/22241745/368720116.jpg

seriously - he just snaffled the equivalent of a pastrami reuben and a slice of cake.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew KimeryRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:20:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "Studio features and episodic TV have traditionally been the top of the heap. But I noted some months back the story of an extremely sharp and camera friendly young intern who works on the local TV show where my wife does a regular segment who literally dismissed an offer to go on salary at the TV station because she just didn't feel TV was the place to be. She wanted a career in web development because she was firmly convinced that's where the eyeballs of her generation were largely going to be served over her lifetime. Broadcast had no "cachet" for her."

I think there's a difference between broadcast/cable/sat as a delivery medium and content that is typically found on broadcast/cable/sat. The delivery medium, not the content, is what's on shifting ground. People what the content they just want it more on their terms.

Netflix, Hulu and YouTube are all trying to create 'broadcast quality' (for lack of a better term) original content because they know that's what they have to do to compete. Hulu is way, way, way more profitable than YouTube even though Hulu does a fraction of the traffic because Hulu has the premium content that people will pay/watch ads for. Ad before a skate video? No thanks. Ad before 30 Rock, I'm okay w/that.

Is the moving picture landscape broadening out more than ever? Yes. But that expansion isn't going to replace the movies and episodic shows that people want. As a content creator I'm really not worried about this at all. I mean, do I really care if I'm working on an original series for Netflix or an original series for network TV? Now, if I wasn't a content creator but a 'traditional' content distributor then I'd be a bit more worried about what's going on. But, hey, I just want people to watch my docs and I really don't care if it's via iTunes, Amazon, on DVD, cable, sat, whatever. I'm platform agnostic I guess.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Shawn MillerRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 8:20:06 pm

[David Cherniack] "NLE's must do a wide variety of tasks for a wide variety of uses and users. They must interface with the analogue world of a wide spectrum of hardware. I can't imagine that any 3D software, as complex as they are to learn and use, is as complex to write."

David,

I'm not a software developer either, but it seems like the work of developing a program that can cut 2D images and audio, would be a much smaller technical challenge than writing a high end 3D package with all the bells and whistles (rigging, texturing, modeling, lighting, rendering, scripting, etc.) I would assume (for instance), that the work involved in writing a video encoder pales in comparison to the effort needed to make a decent unbiased 3D renderer. I’m willing to admit if I’m wrong… but this is what makes sense to me. :-)

Shawn



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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:30:28 am

What I don't understand is why you are so angry that you have to throw around insults after insult just because I stated my personal opinion. I did so openly clearly stating that it is MY opinion.

And this is exactly why I do not care about people like you who clearly confirm the 'my way or the highway' attitude.
If I do not share your opinion I'm 80 years old or some lunatic amateur. Real classy response...

Sorry that you feel so betrayed by Apple and fair enough that it makes you decide to use other software and hardware. But please do not call me things without knowing who I am or what I do and how many years experience I have using any NLE. I did not call you anything nor did I call anybody not using FCPx or not wanting to use it not a storyteller or anything else.
I used the term to express that I'm not a heavy FX user. Just a lot of straight forward editing. Maybe I should have said documentary editing if that makes you feel less annoyed. And some docu people can't use FCPx because they need multi editor workflows as Mark pointed out.

But I said it is my story, not yours or anybodies else's.

Now you have to excuse me because I need to upload another Youtube video before I join my mates at our retirement home annual wheelchair party :-)


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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:56:22 am

What I don't understand is why you are so angry that you have to throw around insults after insult just because I stated my personal opinion. I did so openly clearly stating that it is MY opinion.

And this is exactly why I do not care about people like you who clearly confirm the 'my way or the highway' attitude.
If I do not share your opinion I'm 80 years old or some lunatic amateur. Real classy response...

Sorry that you feel so betrayed by Apple and fair enough that it makes you decide to use other software and hardware. But please do not call me things without knowing who I am or what I do and how many years experience I have using any NLE. I did not call you anything nor did I call anybody not using FCPx or not wanting to use it not a storyteller or anything else.
I used the term to express that I'm not a heavy FX user. Just a lot of straight forward editing. Maybe I should have said documentary editing if that makes you feel less annoyed. And some docu people can't use FCPx because they need multi editor workflows as Mark pointed out.

But I said it is my story, not yours or anybodies else's.

Now you have to excuse me because I need to upload another Youtube video before I join my mates at our retirement home annual wheelchair party :-)


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Herb SevushRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 12:58:42 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "What I don't understand is why you are so angry that you have to throw around insults after insult just because I stated my personal opinion. I did so openly clearly stating that it is MY opinion."

Labeling something an opinion does not remove you from being responsible for what you said. While Scott may have gone a little overboard with some of his statements I think he articulated his, and my, anger very well. Try reading this section again:

Scott SheriffAs I said before, no one in this, or any other forum ever once suggested taking away your storytelling tools, but you seem to be perfectly OK with the loss of ours. After all, your subject line says "Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please".

So we bitched about the loss of our tools, the loss of choice, lack of notice, and get zero support from folks like yourself. Besides being perplexed by this attitude, I find it quite distasteful how so many fans of X are not just unsympathetic to the situation other editors and business owners find themselves in, but that they seem to be quite happy about it.

What the heck? As long as you have what you want, who cares about the rest of us? Right?


So, while you may not have intended it as such, your "opinion" is actually an expression of glee at our problems. On that, and most everything else he wrote, I agree with Scott wholeheartedly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 1:44:02 pm

[Herb Sevush] "While Scott may have gone a little overboard"

A little overboard? Calling me an 80 year old short of getting to the point of being at room temperature is a little overboard? Herb you might be angry but please think before you defend something that is beyond rational.

I happily take responsibility for my opinion. That's why I posted it, right?

But according to your logic this forum exchange only allows for your point of view because if I say my opinion I declare everyone else's non valid? You can't be serious? Because if you think about it than your opinion [Herb Sevush] "is actually an expression of glee at " my problem....


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Herb SevushRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 2:46:58 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "A little overboard? Calling me an 80 year old short of getting to the point of being at room temperature is a little overboard? Herb you might be angry but please think before you defend something that is beyond rational."

I took it as being funny, at your expense. How about if I say he was "very overboard", does that make it jake.

[Carsten Orlt] "But according to your logic this forum exchange only allows for your point of view because if I say my opinion I declare everyone else's non valid? "

No, your missing the point. Stating something is "your opinion" doesn't affect the validity of what you say, it doesn't make it non-valid but it also doesn't offer protection when you say something idiotic. Labeling a post "my opinion" is a waste of 9 letters - post what you want and get on with it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 6:19:04 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "Calling me an 80 year old short of getting to the point of being at room temperature is a little overboard?"

You are misquoting me (by omission) to make your point. A sure sign of a lost argument.

Here is what I said in reference to your assertion that X is all you will ever need in an editing app:
"From that couple of paragraphs, I can only imagine you are either 80 years old, and with so few years left you don't think your career will advance beyond your current needs before you assume room temp...
Or
Your career path is pretty much YT, or Vimeo art/hobby pieces, and you don't see a future where anything other than the basics, or any type of collaborative effort will be required.
"

Here, let me use a still from 'The Big Bang Theory' to explain my first paragraph:



The second paragraph is not sarcasm, I'm just paraphrasing what you said in your first five paragraphs of your OP. In essence, I agree that based on your remarks X is all you will ever need. This is the anchor to the rest of my entire post. In your OP, you use the very common straw man of 'I don't need/want/use (insert your topic here) and don't see why others are so worked up.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 2:03:02 pm

Agreed. Some of the language was maybe a little hyperbolic (but seriously who am I to talk), nevertheless Scott's post there was a pretty ringingly sound, forceful argument, and a personally satisfying read for the likes of meself. To my mind, it cut clean through a lot of stuff that gets bounced around here.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:33:26 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "What the heck? As long as you have what you want, who cares about the rest of us? Right?"

Scott, I agree with most of what you are saying, but frankly, I've just given up. X is what it is and making the demand that it be something else seems fruitless.

After all the NAB news this year, I've decided to stop comparing X to FCS. They unfortunately share a name, but thats ALL they have in common. I believe it was a poor decision on Apple's part to kill FCS. I still use it nearly every day, and frankly it was a b!tch to start retooling again, but I'm on that path now, so 'uk 'em. There are really great choices that tower over X for the kind of work I do, and a fortunate side effect of the killing of FCS is that these choices are much more affordable. So, nasty problems, but a wee bit of win-win, as well.

X is this interesting $300-400 program that I'm intrigued by, but not particularly crazy about. Some of its thinking is kind of cool, but a lot of it seems muddled by its own glitzy training wheels. It is unsuitable for my professional use, and there is nothing to lead me to believe that it ever will be. I don't believe that Apple is working in that direction. X is not a valid replacement for FCP 7, but in my world all the people who need to know that, pretty much know that now.

When people call X revolutionary, I think that's a bit delusional, but I've also been trying to recognize that it has its uses for many people. I think Carsten's right--that it shouldn't change course. Mostly I think this because its too late. It is what it is now. And, I guess, after a year--for me--that's just a big "Oh, well."


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:25:11 pm

[Chris Harlan] "X is what it is and making the demand that it be something else seems fruitless."

I'm not 100% convinced of that. Although I take it with a grain of salt when Apple PR tells me something was done in response to customers, I do believe that RED support, better multitrack audio editing and dual viewers (3 of the 4 things pre-announced for the next version) are making their way into X because of customer feedback. It was specifically stated to me as such, and I do tend to believe it. So, while most of what we want from an "FCP8" probably aren't in the design, I do think ProApps is looking at ways to tweak the product. I think they shipped everything that was in the pipeline with 10.0.3 and now they are fishing around for the right direction to continue that development, as long as it fits into the structure that's been built.

Heck, maybe we'll even get tracks. Oh wait, this is reality.... Lost it there for a moment ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 6:49:00 pm

[Chris Harlan] "X is what it is and making the demand that it be something else seems fruitless."

I agree with you. I wasn't saying (or wishing) X should be something else.* I was speaking more to the idea of either thanking apple for their actions surrounding X, or just being so bat-sh!t naive and unaware how apple had screwed a huge portion of their biggest fans in the process. Many of which helped get FCS accepted in the market in the first place.

[Chris Harlan] "X is this interesting $300-400 program that I'm intrigued by, but not particularly crazy about. Some of its thinking is kind of cool, but a lot of it seems muddled by its own glitzy training wheels. It is unsuitable for my professional use, and there is nothing to lead me to believe that it ever will be."

Agreed. There are bits and pieces that are OK, but overall not an app for professional use.**

[Chris Harlan] "When people call X revolutionary, I think that's a bit delusional, but I've also been trying to recognize that it has its uses for many people."

Agreed.


* I have said, since we no longer have the choice of FCP, that X should have a 'classic' mode for both the UI and operation. Still, X wouldn't be my first choice.

**There are professionals that will find a use for X. By professional, I mean those that work in a collaborative process, or on complex projects where X is a total fail.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:37:44 pm

I feel the need to respond.

I'm not mad at Apple, and I'm not sure if FCPX is going to work for us or if Apple computers are ultimately going to be the "right" choice.

We run a very small facility.

Facility is too big of a word. We don't wear berets when we edit, so boutique isn't quite right either. My perspective isn't relevant to every situation.

We haven't spent money on new Apple editing gear (hardware/software) in quite a while.

Of course there's the occasional production gear upgrades (we are full service production/post) and little software bumps here and there, hard drives, OS, LTO, etc. Most of that is not going to Apple.

The EOL of Final Cut Server is probably the most expensive loss from this situation. That's a big one to invest in and get working. This would be maddening if we had FCServer.

Our computers aren't the fastest in the world, or the newest. We have been waiting like everyone else, and we instead invested in infrastructure in the form of a fairly open, file based SAN as it was the right time and frankly, we needed it.

When the computers were new, FCP7 was fairly new, so in the scheme of FCP7 technology, we are still running cutting edge commodity machines/support gear, or at least the very best that Apple had to offer. I will maintain that Apple computers have never been the most powerful (read fastest) computers in the world. People tend to forget this, and I think that people had a huge slap in the face realization when FCP7 was EOLd. It forced them to take a really good look around, and that is perfectly valid. Good on 'em. Use what is right for you, and if Apple doesn't fit that bill, so be it. It happens all the time in the business world. Directions change.

I also get the sense that there's a rush to go out and buy something.

Why?

Don't get me wrong, there are times when purchases need to happen immediately. I get that, and of course, we have to set price deals aside as there hasn't been a better time to jump in the NLE game. Apple isn't the only one playing the price game if anyone feels "devalued". Smoke 2012 dropped to $3495, that's 2012 not the unreleased 2013, Symphony is a $1000 cross grade, you can get the entire CS6 suite for $30/month. In that sense, now is a good time to buy, but what do you buy and why buy them all?

FCP7 is going to be around for a while, simply because not everyone is going to simply jump. We can't jump, and if we can't jump, I assume that there's many many like us who can't jump. We aren't going to rush out and buy every NLE deal and cross grade and a small pile of Windows boxes. We simply don't have the time, it financially doesn't make much sense, and we are busy enough that we couldn't take the time to run all softwares at once anyway. So we stick with FCP7 for a little while, yet. It still works pretty well. Nothing has been broken. And then we download free trials. 30 days is probably enough time to figure out if a tool is going to work or not.

Of course, this won't last forever. Something will break, or something will require a hardware update. Then what do we do? Do we have to go all in to Windows? Really?

What is it about that situation that makes my future more certain by buying a PC and other software?

Have you priced a top of the line HP z820? Have you clicked the buy button?

Do we just buy iMacs and deal with it?

After playing around on a buddies brand spanking new Thunderbolted quad core iMac, I tell you what, it's not that bad of a reality. A real and true reality.

Did I ever think it would be? Hell no. No way.

It is not necessarily the direction I would have picked? Nope.

I don't really like the iMac form factor. But as a computer, a real and usable computer, it is pretty f*cking great. Sure, I won't be doing stereoscopic uncompressed 6k edits, but you know what, neither will 99.99999% of total editors everywhere.

We will also have to go out and buy a few new replacement pieces of gear in the form of some faction of Thunderbolt/external PCIe. In short, once we do make a decision, we will spend the money on on hardware what we probably would have spent on the proverbial FCP8 update.

I started in this business with a laptop because it was all I could afford that the time. After I got my first desktop, there was no way you were prying that thing out of my hands. But now?

Apple is simply the most recent company to put something to bed and sure, Apple might EOL other software someday, but my guess is that other companies will EOL other software too, or decide to go in another direction if profits aren't working out. After all, this is a business. A huge business.

You have a business right? Do you keep cranking out videos hoping someone will come in the door and buy them, or do you make better business decisions and figure out how to make the customers that are actually paying for your services more profitable? Apple has all the money to keep making MacPros, but is that the right business decision to make?

My feeling is that FCP7 didn't fit in to their business plans anymore than handhelds fit in to HP's business plans. For now.

Plus, if you look at the technology, and really take a good look at it before shrugging it off, there are signs that all is not lost. If sticking with Apple, will it be a big, loud, heavy sizzle core? No. We try and do our best to hide those from client view anyway.

What lead you to believe that Apple was looking out for you and your business, and why does Apple need to shoulder that responsibility?

What other company, NLE or otherwise, gives you complete confidence that you will be able to get through the next 10 years? And why should they shoulder that responsibility?

I ask all of these questions honestly. I'd love to get your take on it.

So, as you say, if FCP wasn't all that high end (and I am total agreement with that statement) why are you so mad? What is there to be angry about? Look around, there is much to see and learn, and once you venture out in to the post FCS world, you will see it's not all that bad, and in a lot of cases, much much better. So, while FCPX might not be the best for you, I agree with Carsten. Carry on, Apple.

Jeremy


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:49:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We don't wear berets when we edit, so boutique isn't quite right either."

Sorry, dude. The official boutique uniform is jeans, black tee-shirt, and running shoes. No berets. I bet you guys fit right in.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:56:32 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Sorry, dude. The official boutique uniform is jeans, black tee-shirt, and running shoes. No berets. I bet you guys fit right in."

We resemble that comment, except it's 80 degrees here today, so actually, it's shorts.

And my dog is sleeping on the floor next to me.



Jeremy


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:54:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And my dog is sleeping on the floor next to me.

"


Boutique! So Boutique.


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Jim GibertiRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:02:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We resemble that comment, except it's 80 degrees here today, so actually, it's shorts.

And my dog is sleeping on the floor next to me."


You call THAT a boutique Jeremy?

I'm in pajama pants with 8 Labs in the studio, and I haven't shaved for three days, and there's Bailey's in my coffee, and...


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:06:35 pm

[Jim Giberti] "I'm in pajama pants with 8 Labs in the studio, and I haven't shaved for three days, and there's Bailey's in my coffee, and..."

;)

...and horses. Something about horses, right?


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Jim GibertiRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:12:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "...and horses. Something about horses, right?
"


Yeah, way too many of them too but at least they shed in their own house.


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 8:28:36 pm

[Jim Giberti] "[Jeremy Garchow] "...and horses. Something about horses, right?
"

Yeah, way too many of them too but at least they shed in their own house.

"


Oh, no. No gripes from Mr. Liven deDream. Every summer, when editing is light, and I can take my work up with me into the forrest I spend much time considering how to make such things permanent. But, I just can't find the client trees. Believe me, last summer you were on my mind quite a bit as one of the only people I know who made it. Don't be complainin' about the barn.


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 8:06:20 pm

[Jim Giberti] "I'm in pajama pants with 8 Labs in the studio, and I haven't shaved for three days, and there's Bailey's in my coffee, and...
"


Boutique!


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 7:01:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And my dog is sleeping on the floor next to me."

Best part of the home based office!
Although I have been lucky enough to work at several places that dogs were welcome.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 6:59:35 pm

[Chris Harlan] "The official boutique uniform is jeans, black tee-shirt, and running shoes. No berets. I bet you guys fit right in."

Baseball cap, Levi 501's, T-shirt! Shorts in the summer, it's hot in the desert. I suppose the most 'arty' I get is substituting boat shoes for runners.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Herb SevushRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:42:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I feel the need to respond."

As do we all.

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, as you say, if FCP wasn't all that high end (and I am total agreement with that statement) why are you so mad? What is there to be angry about?"

While I agree with some of your post there were/are a few things to be angry about. The sudden EOL of Legacy with no warning is unprecedented for a product that was the market leader. It was an incredibly shabby way to treat their customers, and that was proven by their eventual near invisible re-release. The refusal to communicate about their short term MacPro plans is very annoying, to say the least. Other than that Apple owes me nothing. That doesn't mean I won't criticize their decisions, but then I'm critical of a lot of decisions made by a lot of companies.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Apple is simply the most recent company to put something to bed and sure, Apple might EOL other software someday, but my guess is that other companies will EOL other software too, or decide to go in another direction if profits aren't working out."

EOL'ing failing software happens all the time, but I doubt I'll see another company take a profitable market leading product and throw it down the toilet.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Apple has all the money to keep making MacPros, but is that the right business decision to make?"

If they're getting out of the market, fine, but say something so I can make reasonable plans. Other companies manage to communicate with their customers, and from now on I will only work with companies that do. To the argument "but they've always been that way, why get angry now" the answer is I was never burned by them before.

[Jeremy Garchow] "What other company, NLE or otherwise, gives you complete confidence that you will be able to get through the next 10 years? And why should they shoulder that responsibility?"

Their is no such thing as "complete confidence." I merely want to work with a company that is interested in servicing my business workflow. For years Apple did, and now they claim they do but act as though they don't. I don't like it when someone pisses on my head and calls it rain. As for 10 years - 3 years is about as far as I want to look ahead.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:58:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The sudden EOL of Legacy with no warning is unprecedented for a product that was the market leader."

Was it a market leader? No question is was extremely popular, but market leader is hard to prove, and like with any statistic, you can sort of fudge the numbers around to display what is "leading" and it also is different for different markets.

[Herb Sevush] "It was an incredibly shabby way to treat their customers, and that was proven by their eventual near invisible re-release. The refusal to communicate about their short term MacPro plans is very annoying, to say the least."

And right here is where things get interesting. Since the dawn of FCP, none of this is new, or represents a different ethos for Apple. It is simply the way the communication has always worked from Apple. They see FCPX as a replacement for Studio, and we could argue about if it really is (and it's not, feature for feature) but everything else they have truly EOLd they have announced and brought along with it the subsequent whitepapers and information about what to do and where to go next.

While many people (including me at the moment) can't use FCPX as an FCS3 replacement, in Apple's eyes, it is the replacement.


[Herb Sevush] "If they're getting out of the market, fine, but say something so I can make reasonable plans. Other companies manage to communicate with their customers, and from now on I will only work with companies that do. To the argument "but they've always been that way, why get angry now" the answer is I was never burned by them before."

Damn, that was my answer. I don't think they are getting out of the market, at least they aren't telling us yet.

Companies can communicate all they want, but that doesn't mean they have something else up their sleeves that they just aren't telling us? In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, companies will only tell you so much about their ultimate long term future plans. They can't be beholden to promises they can't make, either, and they shouldn't have to be. They are trying to keep up with the market needs while trying to make educated guesses about the "future" while we are trying to keep up with them. It's a catch22.

[Herb Sevush] "Their is no such thing as "complete confidence." I merely want to work with a company that is interested in servicing my business workflow. For years Apple did, and now they claim they do but act as though they don't. I don't like it when someone pisses on my head and calls it rain. As for 10 years - 3 years is about as far as I want to look ahead.
"


Yes. Servicing your particular business workflow is crucial. And if Apple isn't in that future for you, it's A-OK. I totally understand and get that. For some (and I think this was Carsten's point) FCPX might fit. That doesn't make him wrong.


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Herb SevushRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:23:15 pm

I've got some long renders and file transfers over USB this morning, so here I go.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Was it a market leader? No question is was extremely popular, but market leader is hard to prove, and like with any statistic, you can sort of fudge the numbers around to display what is "leading" and it also is different for different markets."

OK, lets throw out "market leader" and replace it with the phrase "very successful" - now I still stand by my original idea that it will be a long time before we see anything like the EOL of FCP.

[Jeremy Garchow] "They see FCPX as a replacement for Studio, and we could argue about if it really is (and it's not, feature for feature) but everything else they have truly EOLd they have announced and brought along with it the subsequent whitepapers and information about what to do and where to go next. While many people (including me at the moment) can't use FCPX as an FCS3 replacement, in Apple's eyes, it is the replacement. "

Yes, in marketing terms it was a replacement, but operationally it wasn't. The fact that it goes against everything Apple has done before is a justification for customer anger, not a proof that it was a replacement. Claiming that X was a "replacement" for Legacy is just another example of why it's best to bring an umbrella when talking to a marketing guy. I will say that 10.04 is much closer to being a replacement, but then again the whole point was that they EOL'd Legacy with X at 1.0.

[Jeremy Garchow] "it's only my opinion, companies will only tell you so much about their ultimate long term future plans. "

I'm not asking for "ultimate long term future plans" I'm just looking for a clue as to what they're doing over the next 6 months. I don't think that's too much to ask. Intel manages to do this, as does HP, as does Adobe.

[Jeremy Garchow] "For some (and I think this was Carsten's point) FCPX might fit. That doesn't make him wrong."

No argument.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:37:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "OK, lets throw out "market leader" and replace it with the phrase "very successful""

What is successful? I will give you popular and dare I say ubiquitous. I'm sure it sold a lot of computers, but as a standalone software was it "successful"? We will never know.

The last time we personally gave money to Apple for FInal Cut Studio software was quite a while ago, again, that's my personal situation, not everyone's situation.

[Herb Sevush] "now I still stand by my original idea that it will be a long time before we see anything like the EOL of FCP."

It doesn't happen often. It's usually a big deal when it goes down. Apple is just the most recent so the wounds are fresh.

[Herb Sevush] "I'm not asking for "ultimate long term future plans" I'm just looking for a clue as to what they're doing over the next 6 months. I don't think that's too much to ask. Intel manages to do this, as does HP, as does Adobe."

OK. If Apple had released FCP8, would we feel any different or have they done you a favor?


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Herb SevushRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:42:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "OK. If Apple had released FCP8, would we feel any different or have they done you a favor?"

If they released 8 I would have purchased a used MacPro as I waited for the upgrade. I would not have feared the end of MacPro's because there wouldn't have been the same indication of Apple's indifference to the high end market. If and when they eol'd the Pro line I would have been more open to the idea of a Thunderbolt alternative. In other words I would have been happy in my blindness.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:44:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] " In other words I would have been happy in my blindness."

:-D


..and scene.


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:57:59 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Jeremy Garchow] "OK. If Apple had released FCP8, would we feel any different or have they done you a favor?"

If they released 8 I would have purchased a used MacPro as I waited for the upgrade. I would not have feared the end of MacPro's because there wouldn't have been the same indication of Apple's indifference to the high end market. If and when they eol'd the Pro line I would have been more open to the idea of a Thunderbolt alternative. In other words I would have been happy in my blindness."


Me too!


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 7:03:53 pm

[Herb Sevush] "While I agree with some of your post there were/are a few things to be angry about. The sudden EOL of Legacy with no warning is unprecedented for a product that was the market leader. It was an incredibly shabby way to treat their customers, and that was proven by their eventual near invisible re-release. The refusal to communicate about their short term MacPro plans is very annoying, to say the least. Other than that Apple owes me nothing. That doesn't mean I won't criticize their decisions, but then I'm critical of a lot of decisions made by a lot of companies."

Can I get an Amen for my brother?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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TImothy AuldRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:51:20 pm

Believe me I wasn't in a rush to go out and buy something but unfortunately a fair number of the people I often collaborate with were in a rush to do so and often for very practical reasons having to do with people up the food chain with whom they had to collaborate. Also, I tend to agree with you about the new iMacs if it just weren't for that reflective screen. Makes me nuts every time I see one. And, unlike you, I don't necessarily agree with Carsten. But if FCP X works for him then I'm behind him all the way. At $299 I wish it worked for me.

Tim


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:06:30 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Believe me I wasn't in a rush to go out and buy something but unfortunately a fair number of the people I often collaborate with were in a rush to do so and often for very practical reasons having to do with people up the food chain with whom they had to collaborate. "

And that is valid. It's an imperfect analogy, but on a much larger scale, that is exactly what Apple is doing.

If I freelanced around at other facilities and they used Avid on a g4/OS8, guess what I'd use and like it? OK, maybe not "like it" like it, but like it?

I don't have a choice in that matter. I do what is right for me, and that would be taking the job.


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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:51:52 pm

As Jeremy nicely puts it: I fell the need to response and go through Scots post point for point.

[Scott Sheriff] "The whole "storyteller" and "artist" paradigm is getting overplayed, and tired. It's straight out of the 'Stereotypes R Us' catalog. Do you wear a beret when you edit?
From that couple of paragraphs, I can only imagine you are either 80 years old, and with so few years left you don't think your career will advance beyond your current needs before you assume room temp...
Or
Your career path is pretty much YT, or Vimeo art/hobby pieces, and you don't see a future where anything other than the basics, or any type of collaborative effort will be required. Sort of like a video version of Lomography. "


Ok you know what I think of this part :-)

[Scott Sheriff] "These two statements seem to be in direct conflict. You desire that X should never be anything other than some generic, entry level type tool because that's your speed, so does that me everyone else has to suffer?"

To call FCPx a 'generic, entry level tool' is your interpretation. I actually think it is a very well thought out editing tool. If it makes you suffer than don't use it. If you use it and suffer than I do not have any sympathy because I do not understand why you would use it? Unless of course a client forces you too. Is it what you a fearing?

[Scott Sheriff] "I'm glad that X meets all your current, and future needs. What does that say? Think about that. X hasn't even been out for a year.
I guess it must be hard for you to understand that there are those of us out there that need, want, and can handle a lot more horsepower than X will ever deliver. And that we have some pretty big investments tied to the apple brand, in both hardware and software, and in that respect apple has let us down, and failed to meet our expectations. This is why we are passionate about this. As a someone that uses FCS, I don't give a rats ass about X, iMovie, or even Express. Had apple continued with FCS, and simply introduced X into the mix, there wouldn't be an issue."


Sounds like Apple came to your shop and cut the power? FCP7 is still working fine on all current Apple hardware and all i/o companies have working drivers. As Walter pointed out Avid and Premiere work just fine on exactly the same hardware. Doesn't sound to me like big investment in hardware has become non-functional over night. If you want to switch all you need to do is buy some new software. Might be a bit more than an update to FCP8 would have costed you, but hardly the earth shattering 'I have to replace everything I own'. Only thing that has happened is that Apple didn't continue a software line. You still can work and have plenty of time to make your current hardware make it's money and when it is time to buy something new to see what is out there. It took me a year to make the decision that I will not jump ship.

[Scott Sheriff] "Where you, and others like you make your big mistake is acting like those of us that were expecting FCP8, or FCS4 and didn't get it, want to take your toys away. I've never understood this. No one said anything like that. This is a straw man created by fanboys to defend, the undefendable."

I only did say that I like FCPx and hope Apple will continue with it. I'm not afraid of you, but knowing Apple I can't be sure what their plans are. Maybe they decide after the storm that the whole NLE thing is too difficult and they drop it altogether. I just wanted to let people on the cow know that there are people out there who like it . Kind of a different perspective to the majority of views. That's all.

[Scott Sheriff] "Long before movie hero came along there was FC Express, and iMovie. A couple of aps that didn't have "hundred menus and buttons I will never use", to use your words. These were perfectly suited for the dilettantes, or hobbyists that wanted to play TV. In all the hundreds (and perhaps thousands) of posts where working editors were pining for this and that to be included in the next version of FCP, you will not find ANY where those that need a full blown editing tool wished to take away choices from those that don't need anything more than iMovie, or Express. "

Dilettantes, hobbyists wanted to play TV? Again know idea who I am but happy to insult. What goes around comes around. And calling FCPx just like iMovie only shows that you only value something that has a lot of knobs and shining lights. Simplicity is an art, not the expression of amateurs. In fact much harder to achieve than to dazzle with another button here and there. There are of course areas like VFX where you need a lot of functions to get things done. But I clearly stated that this is not what I'm doing. If it is what you are mainly earning your money with you should be very happy about Autodesk because it will be 100 times more capable than FCP ever was to do this kind of work.

[Scott Sheriff] "And for this you're thankful? I don't get that. So you're perfectly happy to support and defend apple, after it has told the folks that helped get them to where they're at (sales and development wise), we don't need you, are not going to support you anymore, and you no longer have a choice.
Apple says jump, and the only question the fanboys ask is "how high"? But there are a few of us that refuse to be cattle driven off the edge of the cliff.
IMO, if anything sounds like "nasty my way, or the highway crap", it is the no notice EOL of FCP, and Express by your beloved apple, leaving the users with X and iMovie being the only choices, other than to migrate. That is ironic. "


I also supported Apple from the beginning. I bought FCP the day it was officially released by Apple. I dropped Avid for it. So please don't give me your implied 'you must have been using iMovie before'. The difference is that I stopped long ago to second guess what might come, but only look at was is there. Yes Apple decision was initially confusing and I didn't know what to think of it. But I took my time and came to the conclusion, after having another look at Avid and Premiere, that I like FCPx best. Does this make me a fanboy? If you want to call it that, sure I'm a fanboy because Apple gives me the tools I like. If they do not to you, dumb them. Don't let them take away the responsibility for your decision. Stop being the victim and make your own decision.

[Scott Sheriff] "As I said before, no one in this, or any other forum ever once suggested taking away your storytelling tools, but you seem to be perfectly OK with the loss of ours. After all, your subject line says "Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please".
So we bitched about the loss of our tools, the loss of choice, lack of notice, and get zero support from folks like yourself. Besides being perplexed by this attitude, I find it quite distasteful how so many fans of X are not just unsympathetic to the situation other editors and business owners find themselves in, but that they seem to be quite happy about it."


Where did I say I'm happy that you feel betrayed? Again you projecting your opinion onto me. True I'm unsympathetic about the constant bitching. But I didn't put this in my post. I actually made an effort not to label anybody who disagree's with me. I lost thousands of dollars over the last 25 years investing in hardware that suddenly wasn't working with the latest update of this and that anymore. I could write books about it. But I'm no victim to the development of technology. In the long term I earned way more money than I lost. Experience makes me think 3 times before I spend money these days. If I buy the wrong bit and get caught I might be angry but I do not waste my time crying in front of the manufacturer that led me down. Might be fun to come here and vent and I'm not taking away from this at all as I haven't called you anything negative. I only pointed out that there can be a positive opinion too.

[Scott Sheriff] "What the heck? As long as you have what you want, who cares about the rest of us? Right?
There are lots of reasons why you should care, but I'll just pick one.
Past performance is the best indicator of future behavior. They killed Final Cut Server, Shake, Final Cut Express, and of course Final Cut Studio. Some day they'll kill X too, and leave all the X users high and dry. And they will probably do it without any notice, and when it's the least convenient for you. And when it happens, you'll probably have to migrate to not only a new NLE, but a new OS and new hardware. And by then, maybe you'll have some legacy projects you might need to open, and can't. Or the codec that all your material is in, won't run on your new system, etc...
That is the day you will see when this stuff happens to you, why it's not very lulzy. And when that day comes, I bet you won't be posting any 'thank you apple' notices either."


Same as you I have lots of FCP7 projects and I'm as you effected by the EOL here. Just my conclusion is different. And I prepared long time ago for being able to avoid being solely depending on one software. I invested in a DAM (CatDV as FCP server wasn't right for my small shop) This gives a true independence from needing to do all media management in an NLE and does a lot of things much better than any NLE currently is capable of. Including FCPx. So the day has already come and I posted after the event.

Cheers
Carsten


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Jamie FranklinRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:24:17 am

This is a pretty nauseating response.

You are only proving Scotts point further. Since this whole roll-out, people have come here to sex-up their experience of X while denigrating those that have merely expressed their vast disappointment for a litany of very specific reasons. Reasons, that over the course of the year, and with a few updates, gets white washed into a fantasy of delusional anger towards a company that has made very pedestrian attempts at communicating to its user base that built systems, facilities and an array of projects with legitimate questions and concerns.

There is distrust in the air, anger, frustration, uncertainty, and personal experiences people come here to share, vent and communicate. Whether or not the Apple pits are listening, or like minded, industry peeps are in agreement or not, that doesn't equate to "bitching", "playing the victim", being "afraid", or simply angry because they are keyboard warriors. There are tangible, specific, rational reasons being spelled out, mostly in response, to people like you who are re-writing history, pretending their issues are not problematic, and are even suggesting delusional behavior by those expressing themselves.

I take exception to this, and have from day one. You don't have to agree, but you can't, CAN'T, pretend nothing happened that didn't change the game for the worse for a lot of people who had huge stakes in this that Apple completely ignored. That is complete and utter rot


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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:44:28 am

[Jamie Franklin] "while denigrating those that have merely expressed their vast disappointment"

You got that the wrong way round :-)

[Jamie Franklin] "I take exception to this, and have from day one. You don't have to agree, but you can't, CAN'T, pretend nothing happened that didn't change the game for the worse for a lot of people who had huge stakes in this that Apple completely ignored. That is complete and utter rot"

Did I do this? If you read this into my response than I'm sorry you got this impression.
All I was expressing was a different point of view. I didn't say with one word in the original post anything about 'stop winching' or anything to this nature. Though the response was 'you don't care about us who can't work it' followed by a lengthy repeat of good old 'fanboy idiot'.
So I took the liberty to respond to all arguments and tried to explain further why I disagree. If this is something you take 'exception' too than all further discussion is mute.

A different point of view is on record. Discussion not allowed. Sad really.


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Jamie FranklinRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 4:01:45 am

dbl post


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Jamie FranklinRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 4:15:29 am

[Carsten Orlt] I didn't say with one word in the original post anything about 'stop winching' or anything to this nature."

Please...

You said

[Carsten Orlt] True I'm unsympathetic about the constant bitching.

And this gem...

[Carsten Orlt] Stop being the victim and make your own decision.

Then the "why so angry" "why so angry" earlier. THIS is what I'm talking about and so is Scott. It's this blind, cover your eyes, inconsiderate, closed minded, response when the specifics have been spelled out. Over and over to people who claim they just don't get the "hate"....Reasonably well here I might add. Maybe you take exception to his attitude, but 1) Scott isn't bitching...2) Scott isn't playing the victim...3) Scott isn't angry at Apple for some delusional fantasy he invented, he may take exception with your post. The context of your comments though, are not in general towards Scotts attitude towards you, but to his experience on X and the rollout. Again, like many here, stop rewriting and playing make belief in your arguments. They don't square

[Carsten Orlt] A different point of view is on record. Discussion not allowed. Sad really.

Another attempt to shield you from criticism of your "opinions"? I find this to be the most callus, and is at the heart of the definition "fanboy"...people aren't firing back because you enjoy the software. People aren't responding in hostility to those that feel it suits their needs, nor denigrating their opinion for enjoying X...or even being "labelled". But the reverse isn't true. People are being labeled "hater" and a list of other annoying names for simply expressing their disgust at a litany of Apples moves here...ironic really...


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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 9:34:01 pm

Read again: I didn't say with one word in the original post (that opened this threat, if that was unclear) anything about 'stop winching' or anything to this nature.

You are absolutely right I take exception to Scott's response, and yours for that matter, and attitude A. personally towards me and B. in general towards the problem he choose to steer the discussion towards.

Look at the response from Mark, who had a lot more at stake with 100 seats. Only thing he said was that the story ended differently for him. No need to insult. No need to interpret things into my post that weren't there.

Scot was the one who took it into a different direction. I shouldn't have reacted. Stupid me really. But the things he called me were just so out of line that I couldn't skip over it. Call me a baby :-)

He started a brawl and I reacted. My mistake. If in my response I offended Scott or you than I apologise.


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Jamie FranklinRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 5, 2012 at 3:33:28 pm

I don't need to read it again, maybe you need to understand I was responding to your post to Scott. What part of this is hard to grasp...

You've now defended this twice telling him to stop bitching by saying you didn't write it in your original post...when I have clearly quoted you from your response...

Is this thing on?

Anyways, bygones.


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Bill DavisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:55:19 am

[Jamie Franklin] "You don't have to agree, but you can't, CAN'T, pretend nothing happened that didn't change the game for the worse for a lot of people who had huge stakes in this that Apple completely ignored. That is complete and utter rot
"


Jamie,

If you had "huge stakes" at risk, you're a professional. If you're a professional, you're a grown up. If you're a grown up - stop acting like such a "victim."

The single most tiring thing in this group is watching talented professionals who've worked hard and achieved success to the point where they're doing excellent work at the top of an industry - and with one business move by a single vendor, they're reduced to bitching and whining like somebody took their bankie away.

Many of you guys shouting about how terrible Apple has behaved ARE the freaking editing 1 percent at the top of the professional ladder. You've earned that kind of position with hard work and tenacity. So it's amazing that you're now reduced to bitching all the time.

Stop talking about how badly you've been treated. Your talents and abilities are expected to be such that you can get the job done no matter any client, vendor, or software company does.

Legacy EOL should be at best an annoyance to you. Not a career ender.

So stop kvetching about how you've been so "wounded" and nobody understands your pain.

It's tiresome for everyone when the pros at the top of the heap feel justified in moaning about how bad they have it.

(there, now I feel better - a good rant can be so psychologically restorative, huh.)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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-4


Jamie FranklinRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:01:26 pm

Pure white noise Bill...not one word relates to me. At all. And I find your post complete rot. In fact, I don't think you have actually read (or understood) a thing I wrote and have gone totally off the rails. But it isn't the first time


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:12:52 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "Pure white noise Bill...not one word relates to me. At all. And I find your post complete rot. In fact, I don't think you have actually read a thing I wrote and have gone totally off the rails. But it isn't the first time
"


He's a trip. He was hurling out invective at me last night, too. The thing that always blows me away about Bill's posts is how willing he is to make things up and put them in your mouth, and then to chastise you for saying them.


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TImothy AuldRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:18:20 pm

I was going to suggest that he put his Sandra Day O'Connor quote at the beginning and end of all paragraphs in his posts but I'm not sure it would do any good.

Tim


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 4:30:43 pm

[TImothy Auld] " was going to suggest that he put his Sandra Day O'Connor quote at the beginning and end of all paragraphs in his posts but I'm not sure it would do any good.
"


I don't know. It does seem to promote ideals that are incompatible with his discussion style. Maybe its just because they are both from Arizona. If so, maybe Goldwater's "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" would be a better fit.


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Steve ConnorRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 4:35:52 pm

Would it be libellous to suggest that Bill is in fact in the employ of Ron and the COW in order to boost traffic on this site?

It might explain a lot :)

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 4:54:41 pm

[Steve Connor] "Would it be libellous to suggest that Bill is in fact in the employ of Ron and the COW in order to boost traffic on this site?

It might explain a lot :)
"


I suppose there is that.


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Tim WilsonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:01:01 pm

[Steve Connor] "Would it be libellous to suggest"

We're still talking about it. I'll let you know.

Or, more accurately, our lawyers will let you know.

Of course, we have also been talking about sending Apple one of those fruit bouquet thingies. Seems like the least we can do.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Steve ConnorRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:03:48 pm

[Tim Wilson] "We're still talking about it. I'll let you know.

Or, more accurately, our lawyers will let you know.
"


Thanks Tim, if they DO think it's libellous then i won't suggest it.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Jamie FranklinRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 9:51:15 pm

I usually scroll right by his wall of texts since my experience with him has always been the same. Had he not started off with my name I never even would have guessed he was ranting at me...

Well Bill, the cow in the meadow goes "Moo"


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 7:06:24 pm

Jamie,
Thanks!

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Richard HerdRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 2:44:24 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "And that we have some pretty big investments tied to the apple brand, in both hardware and software, and in that respect apple has let us down, and failed to meet our expectations. This is why we are passionate about this."

But what did you think when you actually used the Software (FCP X)?


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 7:34:03 pm

[Richard Herd] "But what did you think when you actually used the Software (FCP X)?"

I loathed it and eventually drug it to the trash can.
I hated the UI organization (like the dark color though), how it behaved and don't shoot with an h.264 based camera so there is no advantage for me at all. I'm also not a fan of 'auto-everything', or things that are 'dumbed-down' be it software or hardware, and IMO, X is dumbed-down.
For quick turn around, entry level, paparazzi and other similar uses it might be just fine.
I didn't even bother to try the new Motion, based on how crappy X was, and what others have said about it.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Steve ConnorRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 8:31:57 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "I'm also not a fan of 'auto-everything',"

I'd imagine, like me, most of the Professionals who use FCPX on here don't use most of the "auto" functions.

[Scott Sheriff] " IMO, X is dumbed-down."

How so? lack of fixed tracks? no source viewer?

[Scott Sheriff] "and don't shoot with an h.264 based camera so there is no advantage for me at all."

It's not just .h264 that FCPX is fast with, it's also quick with ProRes, XDcam (once unwrapped!) and AVCHD

[Scott Sheriff] " didn't even bother to try the new Motion, based on how crappy X was, and what others have said about it.
"


Apart from the lack of roundtripping, the latest version of Motion is the best yet

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 10:00:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "I'd imagine, like me, most of the Professionals who use FCPX on here don't use most of the "auto" functions."

Apple spent time developing that, when they should have been working on features that were actually useful, that we weren't turning off. Opening legacy FCP projects, roundtrip to exiting apps, and interchange are a few things that come to mind.

[Steve Connor] "How so? lack of fixed tracks? no source viewer?"

To start with, see the above comment but, yes how the tracks work sucks, plus there are not enough tracks. No source viewer, hate that too. Who is that for? Doesn't remember in/out on clips, fail. No FX Scripts so you can't easily build, or modify existing plugins inside the editing app, or at all. Speaking of plugins, expensive plugins I already own like EMA, don't work in X and if there was a X version available, I'm sure I'd have to buy them again, fail. How about not being able to get a hard copy of the software? I can't say I like that either. Plus the clip organization is for people that don't log and screen their footage. I could go on...

[Steve Connor] "It's not just .h264 that FCPX is fast with, it's also quick with ProRes, XDcam (once unwrapped!) and AVCHD"

I have an octo, running SL with 16 gigs. I didn't think it was faster, or even as fast on PR or HDV, which is what I had handy at the time, and mostly work with.

[Steve Connor] "Apart from the lack of roundtripping, the latest version of Motion is the best yet"

Well to the lack of roundtripping, you can add not being able to open multiple projects at the same time. Two very handy things that I use all the time, that I suspect many others do too.
Despite being cheap, I hadn't seen anything it did, that you couldn't do with the current Motion. But there are things new Motion can't do. Those things plus the risk to my system stability, make the new Motion a no go.
Thinking about the handling of the X roll out/unannounced EOL of FCS, makes giving apple any of my cash in the future a very unlikely scenario.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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TImothy AuldRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:34:20 am

I've only used X once on a short piece with uncomplicated audio and it performed fine. Despite what I read about how it is a totally new way to do things and people are too - lazy, old, stupid, set in their ways; just pick one - to understand it, I found it pretty easy to adapt. But normally I work on longer form jobs with a lot more media and often with other editors. I could not even begin to trust X in a situation like that. And more practically speaking, the folks I do that sort of work for would not take me seriously if I suggested working with it.

Tim


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James MortnerRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 12:12:11 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I could not even begin to trust X in a situation like that."

Yes, after reading some horror stories Im quite happy to let others do the beata testing for me !


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TImothy AuldRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 12:32:26 pm

I have absolutely no problem with people who use X and are happy with it. If it works for you at its price point then you would be kind of crazy not to use it.

Tim


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Dennis RadekeRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:38:16 am

[Carsten Orlt] "A lot of discussion here is also about native format support. I understand if you have fast turnarounds you like the fact that nothing needs to be transcoded initially (eventually it will). When you work for month on a single project I couldn't care less about a few nights the computer humming away to get footage transcoded. Again exactly what FCPx does best. Ingest fast to get going and transcode in background. So mercury engine is cool but not necessary."

As Greg already pointed out the Mercury Playback Engine is not what gives Adobe Premiere Pro it's capabilities, it was there before the MPE came into existence with CS5. Apple actually called out in its announcement that they are 'resolution independent', something that Adobe said around the CS3 timeframe and actually goes back to the complete re-write that became Premiere Pro 1.0 (as opposed to Premiere).

The key difference between FCPX and Premiere Pro in this case is that FCPX still encourages you to transcode, though you can turn it off. Premiere Pro fundamentally believes in editing real-time natively all the time. You don't HAVE to convert your footage ever. You can transcode if you wish, but we strive to make that a non-issue from an editorial perspective.

That said, with an iffy (read old) computer and highly compressed temporal footage (think DSLR and AVCHD), your experience in an all native edit might encourage you to convert your footage, which of course both FCP X and Premiere Pro (and many others) can do.

Hope this clarifies,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Daniel FromeRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:51:29 am

By the way Dennis I...ugh... 'came across' that CS6 trial that was floating around the RED forums. Amazing.

/fist bump


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Michael GissingRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:51:47 am

I know Carsten and I can verify he is experienced and does excellent broadcast documentary work. I can understand that he finds X to be heading in a direction that suits him and to be fair he did say very clearly that he was stating an opinion.

I am no fan of FCPX but I do think it has reached a point where I can advise editors that there is a broadcast workflow if you want to use it. I know many feel burnt by Apple and this debate has certainly gone beyond bland comment often but slagging off at people in ignorance is hardly edifying.


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Dennis RadekeRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 12:33:32 pm

[Michael Gissing] "
I am no fan of FCPX but I do think it has reached a point where I can advise editors that there is a broadcast workflow if you want to use it. I know many feel burnt by Apple and this debate has certainly gone beyond bland comment often but slagging off at people in ignorance is hardly edifying."


Always agree 100%. Choose the tools that work best for you!


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Carsten OrltRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 11:51:32 am

[Dennis Radeke] "You don't HAVE to convert your footage ever"

Thank you for the clarification Dennis. I do not know Premiere in detail so I was misinformed.

Could you explain how it does work when you put 5 different codecs into one sequence? Will the final output switch on the fly between the different codecs or does it convert everything on the fly to a chosen master codec? I always thought you need a final render in the end at least?

Cheers
Carsten


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Dennis RadekeRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 12:41:09 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "Could you explain how it does work when you put 5 different codecs into one sequence? Will the final output switch on the fly between the different codecs or does it convert everything on the fly to a chosen master codec? I always thought you need a final render in the end at least?"

From Premiere Pro's POV, there is no 'codec'. It's working space is resolution independent so it doesn't matter. When you choose a sequence preset, it makes the frame rate, frame size, aspect ratio etc. conform to what you tell it to, but you don't need to necessarily put that kind of media into the sequence. I'll let McGavran or an Adobe engineer correct me here if I'm in error.

Premiere Pro seeks to make frame rate, codec, aspect ratio etc. unimportant to the editor. you should be able to mix any codec that we understand on the timeline regardless of how different it is from your sequence preset.

The only area where we've had problems is when delivering outputs for broadcasters to iTunes deliverables. When you mix certain formats together on export there are small interlacing issues we've experienced in the past. My understanding is that we have addressed those with CS6 and I'm looking to hear back from my broadcast customers about this specific thing.

Final output is what you make it. The idea is that you never render ever while editing. You only render when you want to make final outputs. So, the PRemiere Pro timeline has 5 different codecs on the timeline and you want to make an OP1a, an H264 and an Animation output. You would select those three output types and Adobe Media Encoder would generate them from the Premiere Pro timeline.

Hopefully, this makes sense and I'm answering your questions. Let me know if I missed something.

Dennis - Adobe


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 2:11:04 pm

I'm in the camp that likes most of what FCP X does EXCEPT the editing. The magnetic, trackless timeline causes more juggling inside the timeline than any other NLE I know. This is especially true when a client is sitting over your shoulder. Here are but two small examples:

1. Two primary storyline clips, each with a connected clip attached. P1 with C1, P2 with C2. Now, swap the P1 and P2 clips with each other WITHOUT swapping the order of the connected clips. So P2 with C1 and P1 with C2. This would require 1 keystroke with a modifier in most NLEs. It takes 3 or 4 with X and the exact locations of where C1 and C2 end up are very imprecise.

2. When you have a nice, tighly organized timeline and the client asks you to "open it all up a bit", letting it be longer. This is reasonably easy with asymmetrical trimming in most NLEs. In X you end up adjusting primary storyline clips, often have to change connecting points and adjust each and every connecting clip.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 2:17:36 pm

PS: not to mention that every action is slow, thanks to the stupid built-in visual animations for nearly everything you do. For example, "replace" freequently takes 1 to 2 sec to activate before the application brings up the dialogue box.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rafael AmadorRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 3:45:46 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "Could you explain how it does work when you put 5 different codecs into one sequence? Will the final output switch on the fly between the different codecs or does it convert everything on the fly to a chosen master codec? I always thought you need a final render in the end at least? "
You don't need any codec for processing or preview.
In FCP, processing is done in 8/10b uncompressed 444 (or 8b RGB) whatever the stuff you put in the sequence. The sequence codec is only applied when you write a file (rendering or exporting).
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Jason PorthouseRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:49:41 pm

I'm somewhere in-between both extremes having worked on X on a few projects now. I can see where Carsten is coming from - as a documentary editor I really enjoyed some of X's features and it definitely made my editing experience more fluid - more time to think story if you will. But there are downside too, and whilst I feel Scott's post, eloquent though it was, was unnecessarily personal I do agree with some points he made.

FOr me the key with X is that some things it does very well, others are good ideas poorly implemented and some are poor. For me the mag timeline works well - I've always been an editor who likes to hold footage in the timeline and X allows me to do it in a very organic way. I loved legacy for this, coming from an Avid background, so once I got my head around the different paradigm I was happy with the new arrangement oveall. I stress overall, because the absence of tracks and some odd (read counter intuitive) behaviours makes some things slower and more cumbersome.

It's the same for the rest of the app overall. For one job X was far quicker to cut on than 7, and the metadata capabilities were a real boon. For another, it was on a par - some faster and easier, some slower and harder. Would I use X to cut broadcast on? With provisos, yes - and they have mainly to do with timescales and stability issues, and that is my 'cautious' head speaking. And, thinking about it, that cuts to the nub of the issue with X for me. Editors are a cautious bunch - it only takes the thought of a machine crash two hours before TX to bring us out in a cold sweat, so we shy away from anything that takes us out of the comfort zone in terms of that which makes our lives easier. And rightly so - there's good reason and precedent for the way NLEs have matured and evolved over the years. The 'old' paradigms for NLE's are there because they're tried and tested - we know how 7 responds, we know it's failings and foibles - same with Media Composer. Dealing with X took me back a bit to the bad old days of cutting on early Avids - shiny, new, prone to failure and way different to 3/4 inch tape and a 9100, but rewarding too. So I've added X to my toolbox, and I think increasingly we need to think like this - as one in a set of tools that may, or may not, be the best tool for any given job. We're all becoming software agnostic in a way, and Apple's flawed attempt at 'thinking different' has, if nothing else, got us thinking and talking about the real meat and bones of our craft.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Richard HerdRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:03:55 pm

So what is your technique for adjusting, as you describe. I guess my real question is, do you use 2 Compound Clips?


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:24:25 pm

[Richard Herd] "So what is your technique for adjusting, as you describe. I guess my real question is, do you use 2 Compound Clips?"

Were you asking me? I wasn't sure. I avoid compound clips as a standard way of editing. Already burned me and it causes project bloat.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:26:48 pm

[Richard Herd] "So what is your technique for adjusting, as you describe. I guess my real question is, do you use 2 Compound Clips?"

I take the clips out of the primary (option-command-up), swap them, then put back in primary (option-command-down).

This leaves the connected clips where they are, and timing of primary stays the same.

It's not elegant, and it takes some steps, but you aren't dicking around with the timing of the connected clips to the primary, and compounding the uncompoundable, and the magnetic timeline simply adjusts when you are swapping the clips.

I really don't mind some of the magnetic timeline, but sometimes the connections work against you. They need some sort of lock button or disconnect or some other Appleism.


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Richard HerdRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 7:26:25 pm

I sent a note to apple about being able to option-click the connection line and move it wherever I want.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 7:31:00 pm

[Richard Herd] "I sent a note to apple about being able to option-click the connection line and move it wherever I want."

And by move wherever you want you mean remove it completely, I'm all for it.

Today, you can hit option-command-click and it will move the connection point.


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Bill DavisRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 7:08:38 am

[Oliver Peters] "1. Two primary storyline clips, each with a connected clip attached. P1 with C1, P2 with C2. Now, swap the P1 and P2 clips with each other WITHOUT swapping the order of the connected clips. So P2 with C1 and P1 with C2. This would require 1 keystroke with a modifier in most NLEs. It takes 3 or 4 with X and the exact locations of where C1 and C2 end up are very imprecise.
"


Isn't this precisely what Auditions is built to enable? Build P1 with C1 and C2 in Auditions - do the same with P2. Arrange and re-arrange magnetically as you like, and pick your Cutaway. What's the problem?

[Oliver Peters] "2. When you have a nice, tighly organized timeline and the client asks you to "open it all up a bit", letting it be longer. This is reasonably easy with asymmetrical trimming in most NLEs. In X you end up adjusting primary storyline clips, often have to change connecting points and adjust each and every connecting clip.
"


Not sure I'm understanding this second point either Re-trimming the clips in the precision editor to new lengths seems like all you'd need to do - and magnetism keeps the connected clip relationships intact globally.

I must not be understanding what you're trying to do that X makes unnecessarily difficult.

(But maybe that says more about my lack of understanding of your issues than anything else! ; )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Oliver PetersRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 12:11:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "Isn't this precisely what Auditions is built to enable? Build P1 with C1 and C2 in Auditions - do the same with P2. Arrange and re-arrange magnetically as you like, and pick your Cutaway. What's the problem?"

I agree this works, but the issue is that I'm trying to make one simple edit change in the fewest number of keystrokes. Doing this with Auditions now adds considerably more moves than even the example I cited. And Auditions only makes sense when you know you are going to have to present options in the first place. Not always the case when responding to the client over your shoulder.

[Bill Davis] "Re-trimming the clips in the precision editor to new lengths seems like all you'd need to do - and magnetism keeps the connected clip relationships intact globally."

This is still more moves than asymmetrical trimming would involve. But let's look at another variation. Your suggestion is absolutely correct when everything was built on the primary storyline with connected clips. However, as we've discussed in various threads, that's not always ideal. For example on a current project, my primary storyline is mainly a gap with a composite VO as a connected clip and then picture edits as a secondary storyline connected at the head. Making rather simple "opening up" changes in 7 becomes a real exercise in editing gymnastics in X with this type of build.

My real concern is not whether it can be done - rather, that quite a few simple functions actually take more steps. In my example above, I feel I approached the edit in the "wrong" tactical manner. This is the only NLE I can think of where you really have to think tactically about how you even start the edit. Should I start by editing to the primary storyline or connect clips to a placeholder gap? Making the wrong choice at the beginning complicates your life later on. That's never been the case with a "standard" track-based NLE. With tracks, you can simply toss it on the timeline and re-arrange as needed. A clip on V1 does not inherently have different properties and behaviors than a clip on V2.

[Bill Davis] "(But maybe that says more about my lack of understanding of your issues than anything else! ; )"

No problem. We're only hashing out ways to try to make this thing work ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David CherniackRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:52:49 pm

I should add one now thing to Dennis' post: you only have to render on output if you're going to a file. If you're going to tape via sdi it's direct.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 1:17:32 am

Wow. After just reading some of these responses I couldn't resist an account and jump in the ring.

For those of you that are still wrapped up in bashing the software - you have every right to speak your mind. But for heavens sake leave the OP alone! Does the idea of him switching NLE's really make you this angry to the point of coming on here a year after the release and cutting apart someone that has an open mind to it and that it is working for?

And Carsten - Don't listen to any of this noise. If it works for you - amazing. Amongst many NLE related applications, I too use X regularly and it has given me far more creative freedom than I could have imaged in any of the other NLE's, many of which I still love and use on a daily basis when required by clients. At the end of the day if your final product is better because you were able to utilize X to your advantage, than you'd be an idiot not to use it. And quite frankly, this industry could use to be turned on its head in terms of the content that is coming out. Look at the type of content that has been referenced here today. The Real World. Keeping Up with the kardashians... etc. Such wonderfully crafted, intelligent programming. If FCP X does nothing else than piss off the editors of these and many other TERRIBLE shows, than that's Okay in my books. When the cohen brothers started cutting on Legacy, they were the rebels... everyone one else was AVID... and as legend has it eventually many others jumped on board. I think the world could use more editors like you that are out to tell a story with even more substance than kim kardashians fat ass may have.


Bottom line, you all have many more choices in the NLE world than you did last year. At much cheaper prices and with easier access. So please just get back to work on whatever software works for you and stop bickering already. Nobody cares that you don't like apples business model.. wah wah, poor you. You're Mr. big time reality show editor right? Don't you have better things to do a year after the release than whine and complain relentlessly? Or are you just scared that X is making 15 year old skateboarders edit circles around you on their macbook airs while popping kick flips. Hate on those that support X all you want, but at the end of the day if they cut their next oscar winning doc on it, and you're watching their acceptance speech while stuck in a dingy basement with 10 of your avid buddies cutting the next episode of the real world - who's the real winner.


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Chris HarlanRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 1:29:40 am

If you are going to stick around, you also need to figure out how not to double post.


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Mike StevensonRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 4, 2012 at 1:36:24 am

touche.


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Scott SheriffRe: Thank you Apple - and don't change course. Please
by on May 12, 2012 at 9:01:32 pm

[Mike Stevenson] "Or are you just scared that X is making 15 year old skateboarders edit circles around you on their macbook airs while popping kick flips."

LOL
So you freely admit that X is the playground of 15 year old skateboarders, and use it to pursue your argument.

[Mike Stevenson] "edit circles around you on their macbook airs"

I doubt anyone will be doing that on a machine that doesn't have any I/O, much less a 15 year old skateboarder.

[Mike Stevenson] "wall of text...stuck in a dingy basement with 10 of your avid buddies cutting the next episode of the real world - who's the real winner."

That would be 10 of my Avid buddies cutting the next episode of the Real World. How much do you think they make a year doing that? How much does your mythical skateboarder make on his 'documentary'?
I noticed in this scenario your 15 year old skateboarder can't get hired to do any paid editing. I wonder why?


BTW
If you think the same tired old handheld, low angle, slomo, rail grinding shots with a ton of meaningless free plugins and light leaks on every shot, that looks like every other of the millions of copycat skateboarder/snowboarder videos posted to YT is somehow edgy, fresh or in any way "editing circles" around any of us, you are sadly misinformed.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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