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Backup

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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tony westBackup
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 6:20:15 pm

It looks like he file corruption problem in X may be solved.

I had not seen anyone talking about this until I saw this link.

Has anyone tried this?







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Bill DavisRe: Backup
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 9:41:16 pm

I'd seen the Backup document, but had no idea how it worked.

This makes huge sense.

I agree that force corrupting your project to go back 15 minutes, is an iffy idea - but the fact that X is always storing a copy of your un-corrupted project so that if things DO go wrong somehow, the auto-recovery system will step in is very cool.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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shawn BockovenRe: Backup
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 10:56:07 pm

10.03 did not save us and we never got the prompt to open the backup file. FCPX 10.03 would just crash on startup. I had to guess and check, manually removing one project at a time until I found the corrupt project. This was all happening while one of our more important clients was watching ... very embarrassing.


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Andy FieldRe: Backup
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 11:36:21 pm

This is about as useful as not having it at all. This is not progress

1 - a back up or auto save should be on a hard drive that doesn't contain your project or media - so if that drive crashes - you can recover the project from another drive

2 - having something at saves just 15 minutes ago and erases all other versions -- runs the risk of saving a copy of the same corrupted project file and replacing it every 15 minutes.

You won't know if the file is corrupted until you quit and try to reload and voila - sorry file is corrupted...and hey, so is the only backup copy of the project you've spent days weeks months working on because it only saved one copy 15 minutes ago.

The MacBreak guys are great - but when they bemoan "all those auto save files piling up in legacy final cut" Those auto saves saved our bacon more times than I can recount over the years. They are tiny project files easily deleted when the projects are done.

Come on apple - make the autosave incremental and let us put it on another drive so we can control it and be able to look back as far as we want if we have to salvage a project

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Chris HarlanRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 1:47:58 am

[Andy Field] "all those auto save files piling up in legacy final cut" Those auto saves saved our bacon more times than I can recount over the years."

Me too. I have been and continue to be extremely grateful for my FCP backup folders. The idea of not having that kind of resource terrifies me. I mean, it feels CRAZY not to have it.


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Jim GibertiRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 5:23:12 am

It is crazy not to have it, and the 15 minute, hidden autosave is unfathomably misconceived.

TimeMachine is the only reliable autosave you have.

Why?


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Jason PorthouseRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 9:49:52 am

When I had issues with a project and event I was cutting in X (caused by a 3rd party messing with something) the backup files saved the day. I couldn't even open X, the file was that corrupted. BUT, every day at end of play I'd simply copy the backup file into a backups folder - mirroring the structure of the FCP Projects folder. I'd do this with the event too, if substantial changes had been made. I was able easily to pull out the last good backup of both files, rename as 'CurrentVersion...' and replace the corrupted files. X opened up fine, no issues, and we were good to go.

I would prefer an incremental autosave, keeping say the last day's worth of files - and maybe some control over where they saved, or at least the option to nominate 2 save locations. That way a pen drive or external location could be nominated for backup - heck, even iCloud. But having said all that, for a little time spent at the end of each day (I'd always back up FCP7 projects manually at the end of the day to 2 separate locations) the backups I had worked, and got me out of the mire.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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tony westRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 12:34:39 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "I'd simply copy the backup file into a backups folder"

This looks like a good habit Jason.


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Jason PorthouseRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 1:00:16 pm

[tony west] "This looks like a good habit Jason."

You need to be organised, as all files have the same name. For Events, I create a backups folder with sub-folders for each project, and a date stamped folder within for each backup. For Projects, I simply drag the Project folder in to my backup, then delete the render folder from the backup to save disk space. Once I've done that initially, I'll just replace the CurrentVersion file and backup folder (providing they'r known good) and that pretty much guarantees a working version is backed up. I do all that at Finder level, without X running. Once you've gotten your head around X's file management structure it's fairly straightforward, and certainly no more onerous than backing up in legacy. If you do then have to replace the project file, I just drag the corrupt (assuming it is) original to the desktop and replace with the CurrentVersion backup - or, if using X's own backup file (which is datestamped) I dupe it and rename as 'CurrentVersion', then replace. Worked fine for me.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Jim GibertiRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:06:44 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "I'd simply copy the backup file into a backups folder - mirroring the structure of the FCP Projects folder. I'd do this with the event too, if substantial changes had been made. I was able easily to pull out the last good backup of both files, rename as 'CurrentVersion...' and replace the corrupted files. X opened up fine, no issues, and we were good to go.
"


In other words you had to figure out a back door way to do what Apple should have as part of it's essential code.

The other thing, of course, is regular (or in your case daily) duplication of the project saved to another drive.

It all works, but in the 21st century, to be suddenly dealing with things that were resolved a loooong time ago - by the same company that seems to have now forgotten about proper backups - it's kinda kooky.


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Chris HarlanRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 10:55:25 pm

[Jim Giberti] "It is crazy not to have it, and the 15 minute, hidden autosave is unfathomably misconceived.

TimeMachine is the only reliable autosave you have.

Why?

"


Who knows?! OVer the years, being able to go back 3,4,5, maybe 6 autosaves to a version of the project that wasn't corrupted wasn't often essential, but when it was essential--a couple of times a year--it was ESSENTIAL.


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Kevin PatrickRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 11:31:29 am

[Andy Field] "having something at saves just 15 minutes ago and erases all other versions"

Just to clarify, there is only one backup file? It constantly gets over written every 15 minutes? That's what I found. I checked out a project and I only found 1 backup file for all the projects (sequences).

Why? Why go to the trouble of having a backup feature, but only one backup? As you say, what if you wind up with a backup of your corrupted project?


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Jim GibertiRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:22:58 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Why? Why go to the trouble of having a backup feature, but only one backup? As you say, what if you wind up with a backup of your corrupted project?"

Why, would be the $64K question for Apple. How can this possibly be seen as the "next generation" of backup?
It's like an addiction to new and simplified that defies logic as part of it's march towards newer and simpler.

Incremental save files have obvious and enormous value in dire times - it's proven - it works.

Replacing it with a 15 minute destructive autosave that ISN'T available to the user (everything must be hidden to be simple) can't possibly be seen as an improvement if you understand what a backup is for.

We had two projects fail and many $Ks of hours that had to be redone because there was no incremental backup.
It won't happen again because we duplicate regularly and we're super aware of corruption and it's potential.

If you've written a perfect program that removes this need then you're truly visionary. But seeing as though the new FCP has corruption issues like no version in a decade, a simple autosave function looks pretty smart.


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Jason PorthouseRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:36:26 pm

I totally agree Jim, it does feel like a very backward step. My old Fast 601/Silver had a 'save all the time' feature - I remember seeing a demo where, in the middle of editing, the guy pulled the plug out of the workstation. Five minutes later, booted up he was back to exactly the point when the plug got pulled. I never lost a thing editing on the Fast. We've not come a long way since. Apple should have given the option for added flexibility in where and when Autosave does it's thing, it's too much to assume everyone has a Time Machine drive attached.

Hence my reasoning for going old school in terms of backups - its a reflex action born of paranoia from years of experiencing crashes from all sorts of NLEs on all platforms. I'd say that FCP7 was the most stable of all NLEs I've used in terms of corruption and crashing, and prior to 10.0.4, X took me right back to the bad old days of regular crashing and potential data loss. Kind of like a bad flashback, only this time it was Media Composer circa 1996 ish rather than the jungles of 'Nam. I have to say it's better now though, and I hope Apple are making rock solid stability a priority.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Jim GibertiRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:46:24 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "prior to 10.0.4, X took me right back to the bad old days of regular crashing and potential data loss."

We've been too swamped to update systems and the discussion as to whether Magic Bullet suffered in the update has also kept from going 1.0.4 but is sounds like it's a real stability improvement.

I still think that carefully managing project size is the single contributing factor to lack of corruption.
But even Apple admitted to me that imported graphics (as of 1.0.3) were a bit of a wild card.


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Kevin PatrickRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 3:25:20 pm

I was hoping I was missing something.

One continuous over writing backup? So if my project gets corrupted and I don't realize it in the 15 minute widow, I now have a duplicate of my corrupted project? I would like to understand the logic behind this.

I guess I'll stick to my duplicate projects process.


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Jim GibertiRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 3:55:57 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "One continuous over writing backup? So if my project gets corrupted and I don't realize it in the 15 minute widow, I now have a duplicate of my corrupted project? I would like to understand the logic behind this. "

Don't try and understand something that's not there (logic) but yes, that was the "solution" in 1.0.3 to the problem they created in 1.0.

There's one backup every 15 minutes that overwrites the previous. But remember, even that backup is meaningless unless you actually have a project corruption that won't allow you to open the project - which is rarely the case I'm sure. Most corruption happens and grows while the project is available, so by the time it was unopenable, yes, the backup would be corrupt as well, in most circumstances.

It's simply stupid.

Which I suppose fits with Apple's new obsession with simplicity.


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tony westRe: Backup
by on May 1, 2012 at 4:15:06 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "I guess I'll stick to my duplicate projects process."



I will keep backing up also.

I thought it was interesting to watch though. It wasn't theory, he opened up the file and destroyed it.

Then he recovered the file.

I'm tempted to try it with a test file.

Either way I feel a little better about it now. If I'm backing up and it's backing up I like my odds a little better.


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