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OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.

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Chris HarlanOT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 12:30:55 am

Popped it out of the box. Plugged it in. Plugged a Glyph 4 TB (2 platter, RAID 0). Zoom. Blackmagic saith: 185 MBs Write, 225 MBs Read. I'll say more if there is more. When I have another break, I'll try to G-RAIDs.


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:10:35 am

[Chris Harlan] "Popped it out of the box. Plugged it in. Plugged a Glyph 4 TB (2 platter, RAID 0). Zoom. Blackmagic saith: 185 MBs Write, 225 MBs Read. I'll say more if there is more. When I have another break, I'll try to G-RAIDs."

It unfortunately does't seem to support port multipliers, so it doesn't enable cheap multi-drive eSATA enclosures. (At least that's what I've seen reported; I haven't been able to find a definitive answer.)

The Sonnet Echo can be used with several models of ExpressCard eSATA adaptor that support port multiplication, so that might be a better option for some.

--
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You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:37:20 am

[Chris Kenny] "[Chris Harlan] "Popped it out of the box. Plugged it in. Plugged a Glyph 4 TB (2 platter, RAID 0). Zoom. Blackmagic saith: 185 MBs Write, 225 MBs Read. I'll say more if there is more. When I have another break, I'll try to G-RAIDs."

It unfortunately does't seem to support port multipliers, so it doesn't enable cheap multi-drive eSATA enclosures. (At least that's what I've seen reported; I haven't been able to find a definitive answer.)

The Sonnet Echo can be used with several models of ExpressCard eSATA adaptor that support port multiplication, so that might be a better option for some.
"


Well, La-de-da. "Some" might also want to have Thunderbolt pass-through so that they can be using video i/o (other other items that require the end of the chain), which the Sonnet Echo does not have.


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David LawrenceRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 2:00:17 am

[Chris Harlan] "Well, La-de-da. "Some" might also want to have Thunderbolt pass-through so that they can be using video i/o (other other items that require the end of the chain), which the Sonnet Echo does not have."

Actually, port multipliers are really nice. I use this one with a Sonnet esata expresscard adaptor in my Macbook Pro:

http://www.amazon.com/ESATA1-Esata-External-Port-Multiplier/dp/B0019T06FK

It's a drag it won't work with the LaCie.

_______________________
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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 2:29:09 am

[David Lawrence] "[Chris Harlan] "Well, La-de-da. "Some" might also want to have Thunderbolt pass-through so that they can be using video i/o (other other items that require the end of the chain), which the Sonnet Echo does not have."

Actually, port multipliers are really nice. "


I'm sure they are. I think I was responding more to the tone than anything else. Actually, I wouldn't mind trying that box you linked to out on my 8 core. For my MacBook Pro, though, the drives generally need to be pretty portable so they are usually G-RAIDS or Glyphs. Also, pass through is important to me. I will probably be getting an Echo, anyway, since I have an MXO2 mini, and Sonnet now officially supports it. I'm sick of the spring in the PC Card slot deciding its had enough of whats in there, tossing the card, and bringing about the inevitable kernel panic. Of course, I may just get a little Black Magic box for the Macbook Pro since its about the same price as the Sonnet. Of course, the Echo's good because it can read Sony cards now. So maybe... Anyway, I'm enjoying the LaCie adaptor, and that I now have easy access to my stacks of eSATA RAIDS . So, there.


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David LawrenceRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 3:07:25 am

[Chris Harlan] "For my MacBook Pro, though, the drives generally need to be pretty portable so they are usually G-RAIDS or Glyphs. Also, pass through is important to me."

I hear you. Pass through is important to me too and it's annoying the Echo doesn't have it.

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Aindreas GallagherRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:17:41 am

[Chris Harlan] "Well, La-de-da."

I am just here to say that people do not use this phrase enough.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
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Michael HadleyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:32:33 am

What make/model adapter are you describing? URL?


Thanks!


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:44:23 am

[Michael Hadley] "What make/model adapter are you describing? URL?


Thanks!"



Sorry, I'm typing this between Aspera downloads. And, idiotically, I'm referring to a thread from a week or two ago and just expected everybody to know what I was talking about. Silly me.

It's the LaCie eSATA adapter. See it here:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/05/lacie-esata-hub-thunderbolt-series/


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Michael HadleyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 2:30:46 am

Got it. Thanks.

Now we just need a new MacPro tower and everything is good, right?


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Jason PorthouseRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:22:48 am

Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone do a Thunderbolt 'hub'? I'm looking for a solution whereby I can use one of Blackmagics Thunderbolt IO boxes alongside an external monitor. Only snag is I'm driving it from my 13" MBP so only 1 TB port - I need at least two. Any suggestions gratefully received!

Jason

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Andrew RichardsRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:06:00 am

You can daisy chain. Put the monitor last unless it is Apple's Thunderbolt Display. In that case order wouldn't matter.

EDIT: I forgot the Intensity Extreme only has the single Thunderbolt port. I'm not aware of any hubs. Sorry.

Best,
Andy


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Jason PorthouseRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:48:50 am

[Andrew Richards] "EDIT: I forgot the Intensity Extreme only has the single Thunderbolt port. I'm not aware of any hubs. Sorry.

Yeah, it's a bummer. I could go for the IO Express, but then I can't do 2K or 3D and it's twice the price - or I have to get an Apple TB display rather than use one of my 23" Cinema Displays. I guess BMD didn't want to pay for 2 ports - licensing perhaps? There's a gap in the market there though, for sure.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:37:30 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "[Andrew Richards] "EDIT: I forgot the Intensity Extreme only has the single Thunderbolt port. I'm not aware of any hubs. Sorry.

Yeah, it's a bummer. I could go for the IO Express, but then I can't do 2K or 3D and it's twice the price - or I have to get an Apple TB display rather than use one of my 23" Cinema Displays. I guess BMD didn't want to pay for 2 ports - licensing perhaps? There's a gap in the market there though, for sure.
"


Hubs can't exist by the very nature of Thunderbolt. It has to be a single terminated line like SCSI.


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:25:05 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone do a Thunderbolt 'hub'?"

The Thunderbolt specs say it supports such things, but nobody seems to be making one yet.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:39:03 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[Jason Porthouse] "Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone do a Thunderbolt 'hub'?"

The Thunderbolt specs say it supports such things, but nobody seems to be making one yet.
"


I don't believe thats the case. I could be wrong, but I believe the nature of Thunderbolt requires a single chain like SCSI.


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 5:17:04 am

[Chris Harlan] "I don't believe thats the case. I could be wrong, but I believe the nature of Thunderbolt requires a single chain like SCSI."

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/technology-brief/thunderbolt-technolog...

"A symmetric architecture that supports flexible topologies (star, tree, daisy chaining, etc.) and enables peer-to-peer communication (via software) between devices."

Star/tree topologies should allow for hubs.

FireWire technically allows for hubs as well. A few were available, but they were never very popular.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 6:48:27 am

[Chris Kenny] "[Chris Harlan] "I don't believe thats the case. I could be wrong, but I believe the nature of Thunderbolt requires a single chain like SCSI."

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/technology-brief/thunderbolt-technolog.....

"A symmetric architecture that supports flexible topologies (star, tree, daisy chaining, etc.) and enables peer-to-peer communication (via software) between devices."

Star/tree topologies should allow for hubs.

FireWire technically allows for hubs as well. A few were available, but they were never very popular.
"



Chris, I interpret this differently than you do. I think you are talking Apples and Oranges, here. But, as I say, I may be wrong. This is my understanding. I believe the "symmetric architecture" alluded to in this brochure exists on the Transport Layer (Apples) and allows "flexible topologies" at that layer, so that you can do things like build the LaCie and Belkin Hubs, and that you can run a variety of different protocols from them, and just generally have things sitting on the line, but that the Physical Layer (Oranges) requires a single lane circuit, which is why the daisy chain. This makes sense to me as these would be extensions of a PCIe lane, and is why I'm doubtful that you'll ever see a hub, other than hubs for other protocols. Again, my understanding may be incomplete or wrong, but after cursory examination while deciding wether I was going to buy a new Macbook Pro, that's how I came to understand it.


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 3:09:10 pm

[Chris Harlan] "This makes sense to me as these would be extensions of a PCIe lane, and is why I'm doubtful that you'll ever see a hub, other than hubs for other protocols."

PCIe supports star topologies itself -- that's how external PCIe expander boxes like the Magma work. And in any event, Thunderbolt isn't quite native PCIe -- PCIe is just one protocol that can be multiplexed over it. Even if PCIe didn't support star topologies, Thunderbolt controllers could disguise what was going on from PCIe devices.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 4:24:20 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[Chris Harlan] "This makes sense to me as these would be extensions of a PCIe lane, and is why I'm doubtful that you'll ever see a hub, other than hubs for other protocols."

PCIe supports star topologies itself -- that's how external PCIe expander boxes like the Magma work. And in any event, Thunderbolt isn't quite native PCIe -- PCIe is just one protocol that can be multiplexed over it. Even if PCIe didn't support star topologies, Thunderbolt controllers could disguise what was going on from PCIe devices.
"


Again, I think you're mistaken and are mixing up abstraction layers. I'd like to be wrong. I'd like a hub. The one thing I know you are mistaken about in the above paragraph is "PCIe is just one protocol that can be multiplexed over it." PCIe and DisplayPort are the ONLY two bus level protocols muxed by Thunderbolt at that abstraction layer. Other protocols run on top of them. In my searches, I've found many references to hubs or potential hubs for upper level protocols, but NONE for anything at that level. ALL references at that level are to daisy-chaining. Check out the following Intel brief. Notice the focus on the daisy chain as the mode of connection.

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/technology-brief/thunderbolt-technolog...

"With Thunderbolt products, performance, simplicity and flexibility all come together. Users can add high-performance features to their PC over a cable, daisy chaining one after another, up to a total of 7 devices, 1 or 2 of which can be high-resolution DisplayPort v1.1a displays (depending on the controller configuration in the host PC). Because Thunderbolt technology delivers two full-bandwidth channels, the user can realize high bandwidth on not only the first device attached, but on downstream devices as well.
Users can always connect to their other non-Thunderbolt products at the end of a daisy chain by using Thunderbolt technology adapters (e.g., to connect to native PCI Express devices like eSata, Firewire). These adapters can be easily built using a Thunderbolt controller with off-the-shelf PCI Express-to-“other technology” controllers."


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 4:44:31 pm

[Chris Harlan] "The one thing I know you are mistaken about in the above paragraph is "PCIe is just one protocol that can be multiplexed over it." PCIe and DisplayPort are the ONLY two bus level protocols muxed by Thunderbolt at that abstraction layer."

Um, yes, I know. How does this make me "mistaken"? PCIe is only one of the protocols that can be multiplexed over Thunderbolt. There's one other protocol that has that status now, and hypothetically there could be more in the future (though PCIe is pretty general purpose, and multiplexing more protocols would require more complex cross-connects in the host system, so it might not be worth the trouble).

In any event, PCIe's ability to handle star/tree topologies wouldn't matter even if it were the only protocol that could be multiplexed over Thunderbolt -- the abstraction provided by Thunderbolt would still allow for topologies PCIe didn't support. (And, again, PCIe actually does support star topologies, so even if Thunderbolt literally were just external PCIe hubs would be possible.)

[Chris Harlan] " I've found many references to hubs or potential hubs for upper level protocols, but NONE for anything at that level."

Because you're ignoring a clear reference saying Thunderbolt supports tree/star topologies. Again, look at the PDF I linked to. This is clearly labeled as a transport layer feature. It's true that nobody has announced a product yet, but hub products weren't very common for FireWire either -- most people's needs are met by daisy chaining (with technologies that support it), so hubs tend to be rare.

[Chris Harlan] "Notice the focus on the daisy chain as the mode of connection."

Doesn't mean very much. FireWire absolutely supports hubs (there were a few on the market), but they were rarely used, and a brief overview of how the technology worked might well ignore the possibility.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 5:00:15 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Because you're ignoring a clear reference saying Thunderbolt supports tree/star topologies. "

No. I'm not. I'm saying that you are quite possibly misunderstanding that reference. Let me as you this, Chris--since you are so obstinate about such things--after a full year of availability, when a hub would be the easiest, most convenient solution for a majority of Thunderbolt users (instead of a daisy chain with all of its organizational limitations), why doesn't one exist? Why hasn't one been announced? It were possible, or at least easily achievable, why isn't anyone marketing what would be THE most obvious peripheral?


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 5:14:05 pm

[Chris Harlan] "No. I'm not. I'm saying that you are quite possibly misunderstanding that reference."

But you can't seem to explain how. What exactly is your interpretation of Intel's statement that Thunderbolt's transport layer supports tree/star topologies? The transport layer lives below the layer of the multiplexed PCIe Thunderbolt supports, which puts it two levels down from the kind of multi-interface 'hubs' you're claiming are all Thunderbolt can support.

[Chris Harlan] "Let me as you this, Chris--since you are so obstinate about such things--after a full year of availability, when a hub would be the easiest, most convenient solution for a majority of Thunderbolt users (instead of a daisy chain with all of its organizational limitations), why doesn't one exist? Why hasn't one been announced? It were possible, or at least easily achievable, why isn't anyone marketing what would be THE most obvious peripheral?"

I've already addressed this. Hubs are possible on FireWire, but very rarely used. Daisy chaining is sufficient for most users' needs. Given Thunderbolt's similar use cases, why would you expect a type of peripheral that has been so unpopular in the FireWire world to be a top priority for vendors in the Thunderbolt world?

It's also possible (probable, now that I think about it) that while the Thunderbolt protocol supports hubs, a hub isn't something that can be constructed from the Thunderbolt controllers Intel currently has on the market. By way of rough analogy, the hardware needed to build an ethernet switch is different from the hardware needed to build an ethernet NIC. So hubs may have to wait for new Intel hardware, or for Intel to start licensing third-parties to build Thunderbolt ICs.

--
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You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 5:30:33 pm

[Chris Kenny] "But you can't seem to explain how. What exactly is your interpretation of Intel's statement that Thunderbolt's transport layer supports tree/star topologies?"

As I have already said, because the Transport Layer is above the Physical Layer, and the Physical Layer seems to have requirements that might open it up for switching but not for hubing. Do you understand layer abstraction and how each layer is subjugated to the properties of the layer below it?

We're just going to have to disagree like we do on so much else. I just don't have the time to ferret it out any further. Personally, I would be more than happy to be wrong in my assumptions. I would certainly like a hub. It would be so much more convenient. My search for one, however, has suggested that I will not find one for the reasons I have detailed.


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Chris KennyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 5:39:11 pm

[Chris Harlan] "As I have already said, because the Transport Layer is above the Physical Layer, and the Physical Layer seems to have requirements that might open it up for switching but not for hubing. Do you understand layer abstraction and how each layer is subjugated to the properties of the layer below it? "

I understand that the transport layer is built on top of the physical layer, but there is no reason to believe the physical layer fundamentally lacks support for tree/star topologies, and given that the Thunderbolt physical layer is the only physical layer on which the Thunderbolt transport layer is implemented, it would be utterly bizarre for Intel to note that the latter supported tree/star topologies if the former didn't. For instance, Intel also mentions that the transport layer supports "A novel time synchronization protocol that allows all the Thunderbolt products connected in a domain to synchronize their time within 8ns of each other". Would you argue that maybe Thunderbolt doesn't really support synchronization to within 8ns, because it isn't explicitly stated that the physical layer has sufficient performance to enable this?

--
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You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 25, 2012 at 5:44:24 pm

Oh, dude. There is just so much to untangle in your answer, and I just don't have the time for this kind of distraction today. We just have to disagree.


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Alan OkeyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 3:58:56 pm

[Michael Hadley] "Now we just need a new MacPro tower and everything is good, right?"

Towers are so last century. All anyone needs now is Thunderbolt. Just ask anyone on this forum, they'll tell you. The same old codgers who like towers like FCP 7, tracks, videotape, CRT monitors, and floppy drives. They're just bitter old dinosaurs who can't accept change.

Just you wait and see, Apple is going to release a Super Duper Mac Mini Pro Workstation with infinite CPU and GPU power via Thunderbolt expansion. And everyone who buys one will get a free puppy.

/sarcasm*

(*hate that I even have to add this disclaimer, but some people lack a sense of humor)


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Steve ConnorRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:25:16 pm

[Alan Okey] "/sarcasm*

(*hate that I even have to add this disclaimer, but some people lack a sense of humor)
"


Not sure the disclaimer will help with "some people"

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:42:06 pm

[Alan Okey] "Just you wait and see, Apple is going to release a Super Duper Mac Mini Pro Workstation with infinite CPU and GPU power via Thunderbolt expansion. And everyone who buys one will get a free puppy."

You know, Alan you say things like that, but I have to tell you the puppy was really nice, really sweet, and it tasted great.


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+1

Alan OkeyRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:44:44 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I have to tell you the puppy was really nice, really sweet, and it tasted great."

Mmm... Puppy burger...


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Jason JenkinsRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 5:15:54 pm

[Alan Okey] "Towers are so last century. All anyone needs now is Thunderbolt. Just ask anyone on this forum, they'll tell you. The same old codgers who like towers like FCP 7, tracks, videotape, CRT monitors, and floppy drives. They're just bitter old dinosaurs who can't accept change."

Finally, you guys are starting to get it!

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Craig SeemanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:08:58 pm

[Alan Okey] "Just you wait and see, Apple is going to release a Super Duper Mac Mini Pro Workstation with infinite CPU and GPU power via Thunderbolt expansion. And everyone who buys one will get a free puppy.

/sarcasm*"


Sorry but it's gotta come with a kitten. Puppies are so "Windows"
Cats & Macs.
And while I'm in a rhymin' mood.
I want
Power not Tower

Two Proc Xeons and two 16xPCIe doesn't need to be in a Tower form.
Thunderbolt is 4xPCIe made external and covers quite a bit of use scenarios and can be daisy chained for the most part.
Down the road when Thunderbolt goes completely optical some might argue about the two 16xPICe built in as well.



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Tim WilsonRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:34:08 pm

I've been reading this thread with interest, but just read the subject line more carefully. DUDE! You did NOT say off-topic?!?! I've seen maybe 6 threads in the past year that I'd classify as off-topic, and this is definitely not one of them.

Thanks for the thought though. :-)

Carry on,
Tim

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Chris HarlanRe: OT: TBolt eSATA adaptor is pretty darn slick at first glance.
by on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:04:49 pm

[Tim Wilson] "I've been reading this thread with interest, but just read the subject line more carefully. DUDE! You did NOT say off-topic?!?! I've seen maybe 6 threads in the past year that I'd classify as off-topic, and this is definitely not one of them.

Thanks for the thought though. :-)
"


Tim, just for future reference, is it the discussion of the Thunderbolt adapter or the simple culinary comments that keeps this thread topical for this forum?


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