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If I thought the switch was inevitable...

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Bobby MoscaIf I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:14:56 pm

Maybe switch is too harsh a word. Let's say I think I will want to expand my toolset:

Adobe is discounting CS5.5 by 50% for a few more days. CS6 is right around the corner, but that's one heck of a discount. Is the typical upgrade less than 50% of full purchase price? I'm just wondering if I'll save any money by buying now and upgrading later this year, or will it be a wash and I might as well wait until I see what they come up with.

Thanks in advance!


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Oliver PetersRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:29:35 pm

It's too early to tell as to whether you NEED to switch. The CS package is always a good toolkit to have, regardless. CS5.5 is powerful, so there's no reason not to buy it on discount and then pay the upgrade from CS5.5 to CS6 whenever it becomes available.

As far as a switch, the two best options would be either Adobe or Avid depending on the market and post niche you are in - IF you are inclined to make a change at all.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret WilliamsRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:48:23 pm

Usually upgrade is less than 50%. Why not just browse adobes store and see what their current upgrade pricing is from 4.5 to 5.5.


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Bobby MoscaRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 4:24:45 pm

Bret: I have. The upgrade that's up there right now is $399, but since they're running such a big discount I wasn't sure if the upgrade was also marked down. I don't venture there often enough to know their usual pricing.

Oliver: You're right, it may not be a matter of switching as much as having more robust options when I need them. The quick jobs will likely stay on FCPX, while the more complete ones may need to be done elsewhere. That's one thing they got completely wrong if you ask me. The idea of First Cut was a really good one, and may be what X becomes for a lot of people. They could still bring it up to par, but we'll see.


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Lance BachelderRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:22:01 pm

Adobe's upgrade pricing is easily the most painful in the industry. We're only 7 weeks from NAB - it would suck to take advantage of the 50% deal and then have to pay again for 6. 5.5 was such a minor upgrade from 5 and should have been done as a free update since really only Premiere Pro and After Effects got minor changes. They added some codecs and stabilizer and charged for FULL upgrade! Apps Of course they added Audition back to the box but it was there originally. Apple didn't up the price when they added Color to the Studio - they threw it in for free! Apple just added multi cam for free! Adobe would have waited until NAB and charged for it!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Walter SoykaRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:56:51 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "After Effects got minor changes. They added some codecs and stabilizer and charged for FULL upgrade! "

AE CS5.5 added codecs and the Warp Stabilizer (which is very impressive), as you said, but they also added a vastly improved DoF system / Camera Lens Blur effect, lighting fall-off, much improved timecode support, some stereoscopic features, significantly improved disk caching, and integration with Audition.

Warp Stabilizer was certainly the sexy new feature, but I was happy to see these other much-needed incremental improvements, and I felt the upgrade was worthwhile for my work.

It may look better on the "What's New" page when an application has a ton of exciting new features, but improving the little things is important too, and I wish more developers would do that.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Shawn MillerRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 7:59:29 pm

"Adobe's upgrade pricing is easily the most painful in the industry."

I disagree, I think Adobe is easily the least expensive and highest value package on the market. For $1,600.00 you get AE, PPro, Photoshop Illustrator, Flash, Encore, Audition and a few other applications. If you own a previous version of the CS Suite, I think the upgrade price starts at $900 and goes down to $400 or so. Or you can upgrade from a single (CSx) application (Premiere, After Effects, etc) to the entire Production Premium Suite for about $1,000, I believe... going from one application to 10+. Of course, the perceived value of the CS Suite completely depends on how many of these tools are useful to you, but if you use any two of them on a regular basis, then the suite is a steal (IMO).

Comparing upgrade pricing from Avid, Sony, NextLimit, Autodesk, Eye-On, Maxon, SideFX or The Foundry to Adobe, puts Adobe in a different light.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Lance BachelderRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 8:37:25 pm

I agree the Adobe bundle is a great value. But if you upgraded early from CS5 to 5.5 your upgrade was around 34% of the full price. If you waited the upgrade went to almost 50% of full price. Of course they have a great sale right now so upgrade is around 25% of full price.

If you upgrade right now from Media Composer 5.5 to 6 (a MAJOR update!) the upgrade is about 12% of the full price!

Nuff said...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Shawn MillerRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 9:27:45 pm

"If you upgrade right now from Media Composer 5.5 to 6 (a MAJOR update!) the upgrade is about 12% of the full price!"

Yes, for JUST Media Composer. If you upgrade JUST Premiere Pro to CS5.5, it starts around $400 and goes down to $200 or so, depending on what version you're upgrading from. The MC upgrade may be 12% of the full price, but in actual numbers, it's about the same as upgrading the entire Adobe Suite.

You're comparing upgrade pricing of a single application (Avid MC) to an entire Suite (Adobe PP CS5.5). Again, the real value of either offering depends completely what you need the tools to do.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Tim WilsonRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 9:39:04 pm

Adobe is clearly doing what they can to gather steam right now. You don't have to look too far to see that there are some heavy new features coming, including the Adobification of SpeedGrade.

I think it's worth rolling the dice that if you crossgrade now that you won't be hosed by a new release in a month. My experience as a corporate weasel at Boris and Avid tells me that upgrades within a few months are treated differently than upgrading software from a year or more ago.

I also think it's conceivable that Adobe will be looking to make an especially good impression on new customers who showed up because their last vendor hosed them.

Just a guess, speaking strictly as an Adobe customer and former software guy, and not in any official COW-pacity.


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TImothy AuldRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 10:09:46 pm

I personally have rolled the dice in four different directions. I'm not entirely sure that I had any other options. As far as FCPX is concerned, at its present price point I'll try it if I have an even an inkling that it will work for me. As long as I'm still on the Mac platform. That window (no pun intended) is closing rapidly.

Tim


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Bret WilliamsRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 5:24:43 am

I don't understand why more people aren't screaming about X's price point. With Studio, the upgrades were $299 for the entire thing, color, motion, soundtrack, DVDSP, compressor, FCP, etc. Now, you get one app for $299 and $50 each for the other two. So from my point of view, the pricing used to be $299, and now it's $399 for a less featured, less app'd suite. Great, so it was a lower cost to get on board vs. studio. But it's a $100 more to stay on board every upgrade. Just another way they screwed the existing users of studio.


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Steve ConnorRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 11:40:59 am

[Bret Williams] "I don't understand why more people aren't screaming about X's price point. With Studio, the upgrades were $299 for the entire thing, color, motion, soundtrack, DVDSP, compressor, FCP, etc. Now, you get one app for $299 and $50 each for the other two."

You're actually the first person I've seen who has moaned about the price.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Dominic DeaconRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 11:53:59 am

It's a fair moan though. A year before Apple dumped it Studio was the first piece of major software I'd ever been able to afford. I figured I was buying into at least a decade of upgrades. Boy did I feel robbed.


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Lance BachelderRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 3:27:44 am

I hope you're right Tim. Last NAB was a little shocking to me with a .5 update at full price. I still haven't purchased 5.5 and will wait to see how 6 looks - though Adobe also has the very unfriendly tiered upgrading based on the version you have. Not a way to get old users back at all, including me.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Bret WilliamsRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 5:37:58 am

Adobe's upgrade pricing has been nothing but awesome for me over the years. I started out with a couple single apps. AE, PS, Illustrator. I also had Macromedia Dreamweaver, which I eventually upgraded to Macromedia Studio. Adobe merged with Macromedia. I went over to the CS3 Web standard bundle for next to nothing after a few missed upgrades. And one day my PS 7 was getting long in the tooth and wouldn't run in leopard so I upgraded the a single App, Illustrator, to the CS4 Production bundle. I then SOLD my PS 7 on ebay for $200 bucks or so and it was too old to upgrade at that point. Transferred the license and all. I did the same for After Effects 5.5 and if I remember right the price I got for the two almost covered the upgrade to the Production Bundle. 2 years later, I needed to upgrade the web standard and the production bundles to CS5. Upgrading both was actually slightly more than upgrading just ONE to the master collection. So, of course I upgraded the web standard bundle to the master collection and sold my CS4 production bundle on ebay for a fortune because it was upgradeable to CS5 or the master collection. That paid for my upgrade to the master collection. And with all the sales Adobe has been having on upgrades I got top dollar for an older bundle because the upgrade still made it cheaper than buying new for them. Now I have the Master Collection and at one point recently it was $500 to upgrade the whole thing from CS 5.5 which is pretty amazing for all those apps. But I'm cheap obviously. I haven't upgraded. CS5 does all I need. I've had a few AE projects come my way from a CS5.5 system, but I just ask them to save it as CS5. Not sure if Premiere can do that.


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Steve ConnorRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 11:44:21 am

[Bret Williams] "Adobe's upgrade pricing has been nothing but awesome for me over the years. "

Maybe for you, the CS5 to 5.5 upgrade price was very high based on the new features that Adobe offered.

However I'm intrigued by the new Creative Cloud offering where you can have all of Adobes apps for just a few hundred dollars a year

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Oliver PetersRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 27, 2012 at 10:54:29 pm

[Shawn Miller] "You're comparing upgrade pricing of a single application (Avid MC) to an entire Suite (Adobe PP CS5.5). Again, the real value of either offering depends completely what you need the tools to do. "

Not exactly. I'm not sure about upgrade pricing with MC, but for example, if you buy MC 6 at retail with the FCP crossgrade price ($1499), this includes MC 6, Sorenson Squeeze 8, Avid DVD and Avid FX (an OEM version of Boris RED). So it is a small suite, as well, which would be more or less equivalent to Premiere Pro + AE + Encore + AME.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn MillerRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 12:18:26 am

"[Oliver Peters]Not exactly. I'm not sure about upgrade pricing with MC,..."

Hi Oliver, if I read Lance's comment correctly, he was talking about Media Composer exclusively...

"[Lance Bachelder]If you upgrade right now from Media Composer 5.5 to 6 (a MAJOR update!) the upgrade is about 12% of the full price!"

"[Oliver Peters]but for example, if you buy MC 6 at retail with the FCP crossgrade price ($1499), this includes MC 6, Sorenson Squeeze 8, Avid DVD and Avid FX (an OEM version of Boris RED). So it is a small suite, as well, which would be more or less equivalent to Premiere Pro + AE + Encore + AME."

Fair enough, but the main comment I was responding to was about Adobe's upgrade pricing:

"[Lance Bachelder]Adobe's upgrade pricing is easily the most painful in the industry."

I just don't see how this statement holds up. Perhaps someone can help me out here. :-)


Shawn



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Lance BachelderRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 3:24:32 am

I wasn't talking about MC alone - you get a "suite" of software for $2499 or whatever price you end up paying. Not saying product is better or worse than Adobe, I was just a little peeved last NAB when there really wasn't much of a break for recent CS5 buyers - not like Apple had done when they released new Studio upgrade - ahhh... those were the days...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Bret WilliamsRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 28, 2012 at 5:44:28 am

Please don't compare BorisRed to AE. Ugh. And are we not forgetting Photoshop? How invaluable an app is that? What else does the Produciton Premium bundle have? Illustrator, Flash, Audition. Really there is no comparison. The PP suite is just flat out amazing. I'm surprised when I find editors that don't own it. It's tantamount to working in an office without using, well, MS Office. I guess if you're working in a void making event videos you can get away with it, but if you're working with corporate clients at all eventually someone hands you an illustrator file or a psd


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Joseph OwensRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 29, 2012 at 12:32:17 am

[Bret Williams] " I'm surprised when I find editors that don't own it"

We all have at least a few components, and if you don't have Photoshop, I don't know what to say.

DVD Studio Pro started freezing to death a few years ago, just when we really needed Apple to step up with BluRay support. For a long time, I stood outside the store gazing longingly at Encore, but you have to buy the whole suite to get it -- but as soon the incentives kicked in, I clicked the "buy" button. I have almost completely ditched DVD Studio Pro. Encore is a little harder to navigate, but it sure makes up for it in operability -- subtitles were a catastrophe in DVD Studio Pro, where the Adobe app just sucks them in and lets you do whatever you want with 'em. Make new ones up if you want.

Saying that, I'm not really a Premiere user (even though I learned a great deal about NLE with an early version). But there's also nothing wrong with having a deep resource base of support applications.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Mitch IvesRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 29, 2012 at 6:27:21 pm

[Bret Williams] "Please don't compare BorisRed to AE. Ugh. And are we not forgetting Photoshop? How invaluable an app is that? What else does the Produciton Premium bundle have? Illustrator, Flash, Audition. Really there is no comparison. The PP suite is just flat out amazing. I'm surprised when I find editors that don't own it. It's tantamount to working in an office without using, well, MS Office. I guess if you're working in a void making event videos you can get away with it, but if you're working with corporate clients at all eventually someone hands you an illustrator file or a psd"

$600 is a lot for an upgrade. Most people will use some (or several) of the Adobe apps, but very few people use all those apps every single week. I think the point you're missing is look what FCS gave you for a $300 upgrade. All those apps that were all video related. I used them all, save one, every single week. When they added the formerly $25K Color program, the price didn't budge one bit. I think this is the point that people might be making?

I've spoken to Adobe about this... they know that their upgrade pricing isn't popular... and Lance, Steve, et al are right IMO, the 5.5 update was overpriced in my unqualified opinion...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Shawn MillerRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 29, 2012 at 8:43:51 pm

"[Mitch Ives] $600 is a lot for an upgrade."

I guess that depends on your frame of reference. If you work at all in 3D, $500-$1,200 for an update is not uncommon (msa or otherwise), and that's (often) for just one application. I just don't see how Adobe's policies are any more egregious in this regard.

"[Mitch Ives] ...and Lance, Steve, et al are right IMO, the 5.5 update was overpriced in my unqualified opinion..."

Doesn't this point to the fact that the value of the Adobe Suite depends completely on what you use it for? If for instance, you only use it for Photoshop and Encore, then yes, $600.00 is steep. But for me (and many others I think), the return and tighter integration with Audition, refined support for Red files, the Warp Stabilizer tool and a bunch of smaller fixes made it well worth the price.

"I think the point you're missing is look what FCS gave you for a $300 upgrade."

No, I get that point. But I think it's fair to say that it was an unusually generous upgradeā€¦ just as the final pricing for Shake was unusually generous.


Shawn



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Walter SoykaRe: If I thought the switch was inevitable...
by on Feb 29, 2012 at 9:31:43 pm

[Mitch Ives] "$600 is a lot for an upgrade."

Relative to FCP or Media Composer? Yes. Relative to some other apps? Certainly not.

Autodesk charges $495 for annual maintenance on 3ds Max, $595 for annual maintenance on Maya, and $1,995 for annual maintenance on Smoke. Maxon charges $650 for annual maintenance on Cinema 4D Studio. These prices are all yearly fees for updates to a single application.

Considering the breadth of tools in the Adobe suites, I think a $400 upgrade for Production Premium or a $550 upgrade for Master Collection isn't that bad.


[Mitch Ives] "Most people will use some (or several) of the Adobe apps, but very few people use all those apps every single week."

I guess that depends on what you do. I use Illustrator, Photoshop, and After Effects every day at work.

If you only use one application or use several applications, but only very sparingly, I can understand how the upgrades might seem steep. However, if you use multiple applications in the suite and use them regularly, I think it provides a lot of value.


[Mitch Ives] "I think the point you're missing is look what FCS gave you for a $300 upgrade."

It's true that FCS upgrades offered a lot of value -- but remember that this may be somewhat subsidized by Apple hardware sales.


[Mitch Ives] "I've spoken to Adobe about this... they know that their upgrade pricing isn't popular..."

Adobe has announced Adobe Creative Cloud [link], which will give customers another licensing option.

I'm curious for your opinion: is subscription pricing better or worse for you than perpetual licenses and upgrades?


[Mitch Ives] "Lance, Steve, et al are right IMO, the 5.5 update was overpriced in my unqualified opinion..."

With perpetual licensing, you do have the option of not purchasing the upgrades if you don't think they're worthwhile. I skipped CS4 because I didn't think there was enough in it for me. On the other hand, I have been very pleased with both the CS5 and CS5.5 upgrades.

Programs like Photoshop and After Effects are used very, very broadly, so I'm not surprised that some upgrades are more valuable to some users than others. You can't please everyone all the time, right?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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