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Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?

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Dennis RadekeIs there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 12:40:50 pm

I'm just curious about people's thoughts on the announcements from RED and Canon yesterday. Different tools but focused on the same type of customer I think.

Based on the limited information out there, is there a clear winner?

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Steve ConnorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 12:54:23 pm

The Canon looks great but we'll be buying a Scarlet next year.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Darren KellyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 2:16:39 pm

They are kinda both lost on me. $20K for the Canon according to the press release, and I would need glass as I am a Nikon SHooter. Canon has me gun shy these days because of the issues that have plagued their top of the line Pro DSLRs (Focus issues)

Red, well When they announced the red one way way back, I wrote that it was snake oil. They were demoing a carved piece of wood at a trade show, making delivery promises that anyone could see wouldn't happen. Then they released years after they promised - yes years.

This camera was initially priced under $5K. Now, to get a package that works would be something close to $15K, or 3 times more. Will it ship in less than a month from now as promised. I'd doubt it. Can my editing system handle it - no, I don't think so - Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 with lots of fast storage, but I wouldn't bet it would be happy. How would I show the footage anyway. I don't have the money for anything that could display 4K.

I will buy a new camera in 2012, but I don't think either of these two will be on my list.


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Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:03:33 pm

I think people miss that 4K is attractive even in 1080p output. The ability to reposition shots, create pseudo dolly or tracking moves, cut between close or long shot from the same clip is valuable.



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Darren KellyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:11:28 pm

That wouldn't be my shooting style. I'm not a fix it in post kinda guy. I know my craft, and I shoot what I want and need.


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Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:19:31 pm

[Darren Kelly] "I know my craft, and I shoot what I want and need."

I shoot what my client wants and need and many of them tend to change or modify what they need after the shoot.

Some people even do grading in post despite working to get the look during the shoot. Some shoot flat to create the look in post.

....or maybe you edit in camera too?



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Darren KellyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:36:19 pm

Good for you Craig.

It's not the question being posed, but good for you!


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-1

Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:51:08 pm

YOU, not I, made TWO points.
One is that your edit system can't handle it. The other is you can't display 4K.
That was YOUR response to the question.
You can edit 4K in a 1080p timeline.
That is MY response. 4K has value.



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Darren KellyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:02:25 pm

Craig,

Your infatuation with me is getting old very quickly.

I don't think my system is capable of managing that much data - in other words the amount of data used to shoot in 4K, or even larger.

I can't display 4K natively. I'm not wealthy enough to be able to afford a 4K projector, nor the high quality screen I'm sure it affords. Can I play it out to a 1080 device - sure, but if you're going to play with the big toys, I think it's important to be able to view them natively.

Lastly, the name of the thread is : "Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?". So far you have yet to voice any opinion that is based on that question. As usual, you like to try an impress the world with responses about editing, and work arounds for it.

RTFM - OK?

Please do me a favour. Please cease and desist responding to any post I might make on any forum on the internet. You have no knowledge I need.

Govern yourself accordingly!

Cordially Yours


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Herb SevushRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:49:46 pm

Darren -

This is a public forum. While it might seem addressed to you personally, when Craig, or anyone else, posts in response to something you write it's actually addressed to everyone. If you don't like the content, you don't have to read or respond, but you don't have the right to tell anyone else not to post a response. If that's what you want, then stay off public forums. I for one am interested in Craig's remarks, even if I disagree with most of them. They were not personal until you took that tone. So I am posting this to encourage Craig to respond to you or anyone else whenever he feels like he has something to add.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Darren KellyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:09:36 pm

Herb,


[Herb Sevush] "you don't have the right to tell anyone else not to post a response"

I'm not taking away any of his, yours or anyone else's rights.

His post was directed directly at me. Read the 2-3 above, and we were talking to each other.

His post had nothing to do with the question - or statements about the topic at hand. It's about people's opinions on Red and the new Canon camera.

As usual, he's trolling. You want to encourage it, fine with me. What I did was ask him not to respond to anything I said. I am within my rights to that opinion and request.


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Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:26:44 pm

Darren my comments were about the value of 4K outside of 4K monitoring. You claimed lack of 4K monitoring was a factor. For many it's not the deciding factor. 4K has value in the post workflow even when targeting 1080p. Unfortunately you take that personally.



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Herb SevushRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:32:29 pm

[Darren Kelly] " What I did was ask him not to respond to anything I said. I am within my rights to that opinion and request."

No, you are not. well, let me back off that statement a bit. You are within your rights to say anything you want, even if it violates the meaning of a public forum. But I am encouraging Craig, and anyone else in that same situation to pay no attention to what you want.

You seem to think this is a private exchange. It isn't. Even when there is a back and forth between posters it is actually addressed to everybody. You are trying to deny me the ability to hear Craig's opinion of your posts, and you don't have that right. On a public forum you do not get to dictate what other people should do, you only get to dictate how you choose to respond. If you want privacy you are in the wrong place.

I often, change that, I almost always strongly disagree with Craig, but I do not consider his responses trolling, even if he gets off the point somewhat.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Darren KellyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 7:05:23 pm

You know Herb, I've been on and off these forums since they became available. I go back to before the COW was the COW. I've moderated, trained, and much more here.

I typically try and participate in a helpful manner, and then something like this happens.Someone decides to "Police" the forum, or I get trolled by someone like Craig.

It's almost always someone who goes around thumping on his chest about free speech, or the one or multiple of the amendments from the US constitution, for which I care little as I am Canadian, and anyway, it's usually mis-quoted or misapplied. Rights! or Your stepping on my rights, or you have no right etc, etc. I keep reminding myself, the only right I can guarantee is my right to ignore this place.

Then I just look at what I've got myself into, and remove my name from the membership, take the book mark off my browser, and forget about the place.

So, I'll be doing that now. See you again in a few years if I remember - or is it forget about the crap I observed here.

Good Night


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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 7:39:24 pm

[Darren Kelly] "I've moderated, trained, and much more here.
"


It amazes me that people who show such a lack of class, let alone a lack of knowledge, become teachers of this or any subject. Oh well, that explains my education, or lack of...

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Michael HancockRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:16:04 pm

[Craig Seeman] "The ability to reposition shots, create pseudo dolly or tracking moves, cut between close or long shot from the same clip is valuable."

It's valuable sometimes, but I've seen it breed lazy shooting too. Ever been given all wide shots and told to punch in for the mediums and closeups, create tracking shots, etc...? It sucks.

Adding a dolly in post looks like a zoom, adding tracking in post usually looks fake. Reframing? That can be nice, but isn't it easier just to shoot it right the first time?

Downscaling 4K to 1080p does give you an ultrasharp picture though, which is why I like it.

Back to the original question - who ultimately wins between Canon and Red? We do.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:53:35 pm

[Michael Hancock] "It's valuable sometimes, but I've seen it breed lazy shooting too."

That's up to the DP. I know a number of people who had to deliver SD and used 1080 in SD timelines for just such option. Same for 1080 in 720. Like anything it's a creative option.



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Thomas FrankRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:40:45 pm

I would not call it a creative option, more a Rodriguez low budget fix ;)
My take would be Red alone 1K 120 frames a sec. but the real winner is us!



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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:58:28 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Downscaling 4K to 1080p does give you an ultrasharp picture though, which is why I like it."
Sorry to disagree
Downscaling can't gives nothing unless you are starting with something like 420 stuff where (well managed) the oversized can picture can help to get a decent 422 or even 444 downscaled picture.

To work with a picture bigger than the delivery size just complicates things and the only thing that justify that is the possibilities to zoom/pan or reframe.
I don't know AVID and PP, but at least in FCP/FCPX there is not any decent downscaling tool.
I keep using SHAKE just for downscaling.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 2:36:03 pm

I missed your earlier comment Rafael...


[Rafael Amador] "To work with a picture bigger than the delivery size just complicates things and the only thing that justify that is the possibilities to zoom/pan or reframe.
I don't know AVID and PP, but at least in FCP/FCPX there is not any decent downscaling tool.
I keep using SHAKE just for downscaling."


There are other benefits; stabilizing footage, better keying, ability to export high resolution stills to name a few.

To downscale with ease just use REDCineX.

Yes, RED is overkill for many productions and it can add an additional layer of complexity, but I grew up in the film world, so it's nothing unusual when ultimate quality is your goal. For faster workflows there are better solutions, no doubt about that.

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Eduardo SerranoRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 2:16:46 pm

Well, you know, numbera are great but it all gets down to image quality and being reliable and pratical.
I really like red but they are kinda clunky and crashy. It's no surprise that everyone and their brothers are using alexas. They are a good comprimise... having all the geeky quality doesn't translate into good stories. I see people siregarding even the raw part of alexa.

I guess we need to wait for the tests to begin with and then make our own conclusions.


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David Roth WeissRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:24:50 pm

[Steve Connor] "The Canon looks great but we'll be buying a Scarlet next year."

Have you considered the Sony F3 Steve?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve ConnorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:27:32 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Have you considered the Sony F3 Steve?"

I have! We've been using it as our primary camera for a couple of months now, it's fantastic especially with the Nanoflash. Just about to start an edit on a feature we shot with it in India

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Mark DobsonRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 2:29:33 pm

I would love to buy both of them. However They are both out of my price range.

By the time one has kitted these cameras out they will both cost considerably more than the quoted prices.

Both will produce stunning images but I would not self operate either of them. I would employ an experienced cinematographer as they seem fit into a different workflow than that of a self shooting Director / Editor.

This whole thing started with people like Vincent Laforet discovering the Canon 5Dmk11. That was 3 years ago and it precipitated a real change in the accessibility of really high definition and affordable cameras.

For a relatively small investment one could buy a camera that produced truly stunning image quality and slowly build up a set of lenses to cover different situations.

I personally found it really hard to concentrate on getting both good images and sound with a DSLR and bought a Canon XF305. I now use the DSLR to get specialised shots

Interestingly the new Canon C300 uses the Canon XF codec (50Mbps 4:2:2 1080p30 MPEG2 MXF)

If there a race between these cameras it would have to be a three horse race by adding the Sony PMW F3.

Fo me I'm going start saving up for the new 4k Cinema EOS DSLR. Hopefully that will priced closer to the 5D MK11.


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David Roth WeissRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:22:25 pm

[Mark Dobson] "If there a race between these cameras it would have to be a three horse race by adding the Sony PMW F3."

Bingo! For some reason the Sony F3 is often overlooked in these conversations. It's a great camera, at a great price, that shoots stunning video.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Douglas K. DempseyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:50:34 pm

David:

I second your mention of the F3. It is apparently becoming popular in corporate, docu and commercial shoots, and does deliver tremendous image. An ideal indie feature camera as well. If you can rent an Alexa for your whole shoot, fine. But if you want to economize, especially on long project like a docu or indie film, you buy the F3 and basic lens package in the $20K range. Then you rent the other primes, zooms etc on shoot days where you need them. Of course, you can skip the XDCAM format and go directly out via HD/SDI to any number of uncompressed recording devices. Or you can spend another $20K on their upcoming deck to record "raw" using LUT for image control.

Doug D


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Gary HuffRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:02:19 pm

[Douglas K. Dempsey] I second your mention of the F3. It is apparently becoming popular in corporate, docu and commercial shoots, and does deliver tremendous image.

Let me chime in here to third the mention of the F3. It's available now and is a great camera (especially with an external recorder). If you own an EX-series camera already, the two cut well together. When it came out I totally saw the market it for those type of shoots as you mention, Douglas. Not everyone needs 4K (remember, 1080 is practically 2k), and the image holds up under a moderate zoom for re-framing as well.


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Steve ConnorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:34:16 pm

[Gary Huff] "Let me chime in here to third the mention of the F3. It's available now and is a great camera (especially with an external recorder). If you own an EX-series camera already, the two cut well together."

We've been using a 7D as second camera with our F3 on interview setups and that cuts even better than an EX.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Gary HuffRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:56:22 pm

[Steve Connor] We've been using a 7D as second camera with our F3 on interview setups and that cuts even better than an EX.

Steve, thanks for that. I'm currently working on a set of interviews shot with one F3 and they did three takes for the CUs, which, as you can probably imagine, caused a whole host of problems.

I had suggested to the producer that for next time we look at inter-cutting with a DSLR, so it's good to know that someone is already doing that with success.


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David Roth WeissRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:10:58 pm

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "Of course, you can skip the XDCAM format and go directly out via HD/SDI to any number of uncompressed recording devices. Or you can spend another $20K on their upcoming deck to record "raw" using LUT for image control."

Yep!!! Most of those I know use it to record straight to ProRes 422 or HQ on an AJA Ki Pro. It's a great way to go, and the camera body is just $17K, which seems like a steal.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 5:03:30 pm

If is true what this blog says (ONLY 8b OF THE SDI!!) is not a camera to even consider.

http://blog.p2pro.com/post/12322206782/canon-c300-thoughts

I guess that may be an error. I don't consider Canon people stupid enough to have done that.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Richard CardonnaRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 5:21:49 pm

If I could I would go for the Canon because I have tons of canon glass. But I am pretty content with my AF100 and more when I get the pix 220

RC


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Helmut KoblerRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 5:55:16 pm

I was impressed with the Scarlet, less so with the Canon due to the price and codec. But for the work I do, I want a quick, efficient workflow, and Red's workflow feels like it adds a extra couple of steps.

I'm also thinking about the F3. That sensor is impressive, and the price is about $13K in the real-world.

-------------------
Documentary Camera in Los Angeles
http://www.lacameraman.com


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Bill DavisRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 6:12:20 pm

How can one pick a "winner" based on ideas generated by PR professionals?

That's all we have today on either of these cameras.

I suppose we might be able to "sniff out" the early reactions to published feature sets - but does that tell us anything about the utility and staying power of these products over time?

Personaly, I'll start paying more attention when I can hold them in my hands, and shoot something under conditions that are close to what I face when I have to produce work for money, and see the footage for myself.

Until that point, too much smoke and mirrors, and not enough real facts to choose from, IMO.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Douglas K. DempseyRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 7:10:36 pm

I'm hearing with discounts and incentives, you can get the body and the prime lens kit they make for the camera, all at about $20K or slightly less.

Doug D


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Shawn MillerRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 4, 2011 at 7:12:25 pm

Personally, between the two I think the Red scores the most points... mostly because it seems to have the flexibilty I expect out of a video camera (multiple frame rates, true aquisition CODEC, etc). Although at that price range, I probably wouldn't even consider the Canon... I see the choice really being between the F3 (with S-Log upgrade and 4:4:4 recorder) and the Red.

Shawn



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 1:18:10 am

By the time you kit a Scarlet, you will be over the Canon price, or similar.

Price is a wash in my opinion.

Red has some proprietary parts (ssd cards/readers, viewfinders, decoder card to go faster). Files aren't necessarily post ready after shoot if using FCP, unless you add an external recorder. R3D is amazing, but you have to handle it correctly.

Canon has cheaper recording medium, post ready files, viewfinder included.

There's no clear winner, different tools for different jobs with lots of overlap.

Red is a specialized company, Canon is involved in many aspects of imaging, not just cameras (more diversified, could be a strength and weakness).

Red has a clear upgrade path and has setup a flexible, future thinking system, Canon has choices of lens mounts and you are locked to what you purchase. Need a different mount, you need a different camera.

Red has had a hand in binging 4k to the market for serious, Canon has had a hand in being interchangeable lenses to the masses.

Red's metadata color system is second to none, Canon has a LOG workflow.

Red has been in the "cinema" camera market for a little while, this is Canon's first attempt at a true cinema camera development in the digital realm.

There's no clear winner from the tea leaves, there doesn't have to be.

As a wise man once said, in this day and age, buy the support gear, not the camera.


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Thomas FrankRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 8:35:39 am

I don't know the 14 thousand canon Red scarlet x kit sure does beat the 16 thousand Canon EOS C300.
Gives me 2k extra for another lens. But that's my opinion..



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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 2:39:14 pm

There are three clear winners; Mastercard, American Express and Visa.

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 2:59:42 pm

[Liam Hall] "There are three clear winners; Mastercard, American Express and Visa."

Ha! Clearly.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 2:47:17 pm

[Thomas Frank] "I don't know the 14 thousand canon Red scarlet x kit sure does beat the 16 thousand Canon EOS C300.
Gives me 2k extra for another lens. But that's my opinion.."


Certainly.

But that kit gets you a camera with no viewfinder (but LCD), and 20ish minutes of 4k, and half that if using HDRx, so 10ish minutes. If you shoot 10 minutes a day, you're all good!

As soon as you buy another SSD card and a viewfinder ($3200 for that alone), you will see the price is a wash, or very similar, if not more.

The $14k Kit is just a bare minimum starting point. You'll be in for $20k+ in no time if you need to take this in a real shoot and not hobby shoots.

http://www.red.com/store/displays

http://www.red.com/store/media

That's my opinion. For perspective, what cameras have you purchased before? Just curious.


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 6:03:33 pm

Scarlet is 20k+ for most uses.

The batteries in the 14k package are for the hand grip. Two of them are not going to last a day's shooting unless it's very light. Then add glass.

The canon's price, when I saw it caused me chuckles galore. But then I was expecting a few hours later to hear about a 3k fixed lens Scarlet for less than 10k. Red's announcement just caused me disappointment. It's a completely different form factor.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 11:12:37 pm

[David Cherniack] "But then I was expecting a few hours later to hear about a 3k fixed lens Scarlet for less than 10k. Red's announcement just caused me disappointment. It's a completely different form factor."

Supposedly the fixed Scarlet couldn't hold focus so they had to scrap it. They lost all the development money.

For the DSLR crowd that's looking for the next step up, both cameras seem like they will deliver.


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David LawrenceRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:29:49 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Supposedly the fixed Scarlet couldn't hold focus so they had to scrap it. They lost all the development money."

That's a shame. I was soooooo looking forward to that camera. Was wondering what the story was.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:22:36 pm

[David Lawrence] "That's a shame. I was soooooo looking forward to that camera. Was wondering what the story was."

I'm sure if they could have done it, they would have.

Some things just aren't practical at this point, I guess. Have you ever used a Red before?


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David LawrenceRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 8:06:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Some things just aren't practical at this point, I guess. Have you ever used a Red before?"

Yeah, funny how the real world gets in the way. Hope they'll keep working on it.

Never shot on Red, the closest I've come is playing with some 4K footage in REDCINE. It looked gorgeous. I'm a run and gun shooter so the Scarlet fixed seemed like my fantasy camera. Would love to be able to get >DSLR visual quality with real video camera controls and I/O. And the price...

I realize the workflow would be different, but I was willing to step up. I guess if it sounds too good to be true...

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 10:12:38 pm

[David Lawrence] "Yeah, funny how the real world gets in the way. Hope they'll keep working on it."

I'm sure they will keep plugging away.

We've done a small handful of projects with the Red One, one of them with some seriously corrupt media. And I still like it.

I know people might not want this particular form factor of camera, but once they work with the images, it's all worth it in my opinion. I think it's a pretty good price to be able to work at that quality. The raw system they have in place is very smart, they deserve some credit for that.

It's also lends itself to specific situations and not fast turn around. The Canon will have an advantage there.


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Steve ConnorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 11:11:05 pm

[David Lawrence] "'m a run and gun shooter so the Scarlet fixed seemed like my fantasy camera. Would love to be able to get >DSLR visual quality with real video camera controls and I/O. And the price..."

I'm mid-way through a project using a clients Sony FS100, very nice camera it's halfway between a DSLR and an F3. Very easy to use and the AVCHD codec holds up much better than I would have imagined. I know it's not in the same league as a Scarlet but it's certainly a step up from a DSLR.

Just a shame there's no HDSDI out.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David LawrenceRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 4:10:43 am

[Steve Connor] "I'm mid-way through a project using a clients Sony FS100, very nice camera it's halfway between a DSLR and an F3. Very easy to use and the AVCHD codec holds up much better than I would have imagined. I know it's not in the same league as a Scarlet but it's certainly a step up from a DSLR."

I've been curious about that camera since reading this Engadget review a couple months ago:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/26/sony-nex-fs100-review/

In their wrap up, they imply that it wouldn't be that good for run and gun:
To make the best use of a camera like this, you need to shoot quite traditionally: tripod mounted with a matte box, in a relatively gentle environment, with time taken to light and frame each shot properly before pressing the record button. (Read: too good to be true.) Shooting reactively for news or documentaries is not impossible, but it's difficult.

What's your experience been like so far? Does run and gun seem possible, or is Engadget basically right?

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Steve ConnorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 7:57:04 am

[David Lawrence] "What's your experience been like so far? Does run and gun seem possible, or is Engadget basically right?
"


I don't agree in most part with their review, I've used the EX1 a lot over the last couple of years and I find the FS100 to be broadly similar especially with the stock lens. It's not a shoulder mount camera of course, and you do need to take more care with focus, but I've been filming some actuality with it and I found very little restriction with it.

Also the fact you can shoot with 18db of gain, with almost zero noise really helps in poorly lit situations. The picture at 18db is actually cleaner than an EX1 picture.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:53:26 am

" Supposedly the fixed Scarlet couldn't hold focus so they had to scrap it. They lost all the development money."

I'm sure they're crying for another reason, please as well. They would have sold a lot more units at 6-8k than at 20k. The new Scarlet is still a pretty sweet deal if it fits one's production parameters.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:26:27 pm

[David Cherniack] "I'm sure they're crying for another reason, please as well. They would have sold a lot more units at 6-8k than at 20k. "

Yeah, but if you're losing money on every camera when selling it 6-8k, then what's the point? You can't just arbitrarily set a price point.

Math is math, and I am sure that Red wanted to give its customers the best camera at the best price. I guess this is how it adds up. 4k for less then $10k. You can't get that anywhere else.


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Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:47:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I guess this is how it adds up. 4k for less then $10k. You can't get that anywhere else."

JVC has been showing a prototype at various trade shows. It'll be under $10K from what I understand and it may be early next year. It wont be large sensor though.

I think it's interesting where small vs large sensor cameras are being positioned in the market going forward. I wonder what new (not current) cameras targeting ENG will look like.



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:39:21 pm

[Craig Seeman] "JVC has been showing a prototype at various trade shows. It'll be under $10K from what I understand and it may be early next year. It wont be large sensor though.

I think it's interesting where small vs large sensor cameras are being positioned in the market going forward. I wonder what new (not current) cameras targeting ENG will look like."


I'm sure at some point 4k will be the norm. It's going to take a while, though.


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 1:34:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Supposedly the fixed Scarlet couldn't hold focus so they had to scrap it. They lost all the development money."

Then again, this person makes some interesting, if hard to dismiss, points.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?66022-Don-t-piss-down-my-back-a....

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:13:57 pm

[David Cherniack] "Then again, this person makes some interesting, if hard to dismiss, points."

The guy didn't get the camera of his dreams, and accuses them of fraud, or kind of does, but doesn't. Bait and switch. That's some pretty tall accusations.

No one is probably more disappointed than Red themselves. If they could have done it, why didn't they? Perhaps they shouldn't have announced the fixed as an option, as a matter of fact they made a new policy to stop speaking about unreleased items: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62908-Philosophy-change...&p=813888...

Like Bill Davis said, it's a tough crowd out there.


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:22:13 pm

Jeremy, you're attacking his language and sentiment (and exaggerating his meaning) rather than his points, which are worthy of consideration.

My own point of view is I've never taken anything Red says as written in stone so I'm only a little sad that I won't have a 3k 120fps run and gun in my camera repetoire. And I'm sure that Red feels the same. As nice as the new Scarlet is, it's a different form factor,

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:49:04 pm

[David Cherniack] "Jeremy, you're attacking his language and sentiment (and exaggerating his meaning) rather than his points, which are worthy of consideration."

I am? Huh.

Words matter. Those were his words "won't accuse you of fraud", "bait and switch".

From the very beginning, red has made a point that things will change and to count on them changing. So, change happened and this guy is upset. I need to read the whole thread and see where it goes.

He had unrealistic expectations and perhaps Red did as well. If it was easy, everyone would release a 4k 120fps camera for 6 grand. Today, it must not be possible.


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 11:12:14 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " Those were his words "won't accuse you of fraud", "bait and switch"."

May as well quote the whole sentence:

"RED, I will not accuse you of fraud, but this feels like bait and switch. Intentional or not, "everything is subject to change" or not, the effect is the same."

Bit different, huh? But as it's nuanced and he does makes sure that what he's saying is clear later, you may want to read the whole thread...26 pages of it as of this morning.

Again, though, his post can be read for the points he makes. If you wish to dismiss him because of his expectations and ignore his points I find that rather cavalier. But each to his opinions.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 1:28:42 am

Why say fraud at all? In my mind it's not different. He wants to accuse them, but he won't.

[David Cherniack] "[Jeremy Garchow] " Those were his words "won't accuse you of fraud", "bait and switch"."

May as well quote the whole sentence:

"RED, I will not accuse you of fraud, but this feels like bait and switch. Intentional or not, "everything is subject to change" or not, the effect is the same."

Bit different, huh? But as it's nuanced and he does makes sure that what he's saying is clear later, you may want to read the whole thread...26 pages of it as of this morning.

Again, though, his post can be read for the points he makes. If you wish to dismiss him because of his expectations and ignore his points I find that rather cavalier. But each to his opinions.

David
AllinOneFilms.com
"


I still haven't made my way through it. I read three or four pages and it was enough. Some are for it, some are against, it mirrors a lot of what happens here on the debate forum.

What I've gathered is that he's pissed because it's not the camera Red had alluded to it being over the course of the last 3 years.

Such is life. He fell for the marketing and is mad at Red even though Red's policy is to count on things changing.

I am reading a lot of people bought support gear because they thought that the Scarlet was going to have different specs. I'm sorry David, cavalier or not, that's a not a smart way to go about things. Hmm, let me buy these tires for a car I know will be coming out someday, but I'm not sure what the rim size is going to be.

I'm sorry he's frustrated, but I still maintain the Scarlet will be an exceptional little camera at that price.

It just won't go 120fps at HD+ resolution. It'll go 60 @ 1080p, though.

What other camera can you get for the same price does that, that also shoots raw 4k video, 5k stills, has interchangeable pl, canon, and soon Leica m mounts, High Dynamic Range video, audio, tc. Today.

It's a steal if you ask me, but I didn't have many preconceived notions about it.

I'm not dismissing him.

Did he mention if he had used any Red cameras before?


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 3:21:38 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "What I've gathered is that he's pissed because it's not the camera Red had alluded to it being over the course of the last 3 years."

I think that exaggerates his response and is the least part of his post which is a comparison of the power of the original spec'd Scarlet with what was announced. He argues compellingly that the original was a much more powerful camera in terms of processing power (pixels X fps) and that Jannard's reason for the failure to produce a fixed lens Scarlet (the lens didn't hold focus through the zoom) doesn't hold as a reason not to produce the removeable lens version. Both of these points have not been addressed by anyone from Red. I would suggest that if he's a little annoyed he has reason and that the substantial number of ad hominem attacks on him are just another example of the kind of technological fanboyism (really a spiritual substitution) that's so prevalent these days. Reduser.net is the high water mark of the techno-cult, making all others, even Apple's, pale in comparison. And that's pretty hard to do.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 1:14:33 pm

[David Cherniack] "He argues compellingly that the original was a much more powerful camera in terms of processing power (pixels X fps) and that Jannard's reason for the failure to produce a fixed lens Scarlet (the lens didn't hold focus through the zoom) doesn't hold as a reason not to produce the removeable lens version. Both of these points have not been addressed by anyone from Red."

Why does everything have to be a conspiracy these days?

That "original camera" you speak of never was. They tried, they failed, and the current Scarlet is the result.

You can't have 5k 120fps camera that's $39k, and a 4k 120fps camera for $9750.

Aren't they going to release a cheaper Epic at some point as well? I don't know, things change so much and so fast over there, it's hard to keep up. It's much easier to just pay attention to what's in the red store.

There's a reason one camera costs more, it does more, which means it has more expensive parts (and is hand built, which drives up the price). Red is up front about that, and has been for some time.

I also wonder if he's actually used a Red to see what it can do in terms of image quality. He might not be so disappointed if he took it for what it is, instead of what it isn't (boy does that sound familiar around here, or what???).

He can still get 120fps out of it, granted its at a compromised pixel count.

[David Cherniack] "Both of these points have not been addressed by anyone from Red. I would suggest that if he's a little annoyed he has reason and that the substantial number of ad hominem attacks on him are just another example of the kind of technological fanboyism (really a spiritual substitution) that's so prevalent these days. Reduser.net is the high water mark of the techno-cult, making all others, even Apple's, pale in comparison. And that's pretty hard to do."

Shouldn't you be taking that up with the reduser people? That forum is totally bonkers sometimes.

I agree with you about Reduser. It's a jungle over there, and it's hard to find the right info and you do have to machete your way through a bunch of underbrush to get to the clearing.

There's a whole thread specifically for the Scarlet announcement feedback. What is interesting about Red is that you can communicate, or at least have a chance to communicate directly with the heads of the company. That guy should take his post over there.


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David CherniackRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 2:23:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can't have 5k 120fps camera that's $39k, and a 4k 120fps camera for $9750."

I don't think he was asking for that, rather that a 3k 120 fps camera for 7-10k was what was shown at NAB and talked about by Red there, before and after, and that Scarlet's Nov. 3 announcement was hyped by Jim as so exciting, he could hardly keep his skin on. Well, I'm sure, and to some extent it was, but for those who had been waiting on a 3k 120fps camera, based on what Red had said and done, the reveal was a major shock.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also wonder if he's actually used a Red to see what it can do in terms of image quality. He might not be so disappointed if he took it for what it is, instead of what it isn't (boy does that sound familiar around here, or what???)."

I have no doubt he was aware of Red's image quality. His disappointment may be because a) he can't afford a fully tricked out 20k+ Scarlet, or b) he needed 120fps or c) the new form factor doesn't work for him (the original Scarlet could work like a run & gun, this one is Epic sized, which makes it more difficult to use that way).

[Jeremy Garchow] "Shouldn't you be taking that up with the reduser people? That forum is totally bonkers sometimes.

I agree with you about Reduser. It's a jungle over there, and it's hard to find the right info and you do have to machete your way through a bunch of underbrush to get to the clearing."


The Red people are generally very responsive. But they're not exactly Catholic in confessing their sins. As for the steamy fanboyism over there, they tacitly encourage it, though it must get tiring reading all the wows, greats, incredibles and fantastics one word posts after Jim reveals his latest tidbait of information.

Finally, and I think we've done this one to death, I love Red images. I think they've really cut a new edge in camera development and I'm looking forward to using one of their cameras in a future shoot, whenever the existing form factor suits what I'll be doing.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 3:27:59 pm

[David Cherniack] "Finally, and I think we've done this one to death, I love Red images. I think they've really cut a new edge in camera development and I'm looking forward to using one of their cameras in a future shoot, whenever the existing form factor suits what I'll be doing."

Agreed. I'm sure it will be an exceptional camera at an exceptional price, 120fps @ 3k or not.

Jeremy


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Craig SeemanRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 5, 2011 at 11:53:55 pm

I don't think I've seen this link posted

Compares Scarlet to C300
http://cinegearblog.com/red-scarlet-x-vs-canon-eos-c300/



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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 2:00:05 am

[Craig Seeman] "I don't think I've seen this link posted

Compares Scarlet to C300
http://cinegearblog.com/red-scarlet-x-vs-canon-eos-c300/"


After seen this, i think they are cameras for very different kind of needs.
I wouldn't compare the Canon with the RScarlet, but with the SONY F3.

The Scarlet makes sense if you need to shot something different than standard HD.
But to shot HD I think I wouldn't go to the Canon, but to the F3 because the SDI out options.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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David Roth WeissRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 2:10:39 am

[Rafael Amador] "I wouldn't go to the Canon, but to the F3 because the SDI out options."

I honestly can't imagine why anyone would pick either camera over a Sony F3.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
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Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
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Michael GissingRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:49:31 am

The Scarlet looks like a poor man's Epic, rather than the form factor originally touted. The Canon seems overpriced but at least the ergonomics and functionality are better than the DSLRs.

I have a project coming up which is Sony F3 with Samurai recorder straight to ProRes422. Very much looking forward to the pictures and feedback from the DP. Workflow seems a breeze. It is a broadcast feature doc but with limited theatrical release as a 2K file.


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David Roth WeissRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:04:23 am

[Michael Gissing] "I have a project coming up which is Sony F3 with Samurai recorder straight to ProRes422."

I've actually been doing lots of location audio work over the last few months, after a twenty-something year layoff, and virtually all the work has been with the F3, recording to the AJA KiPro.

Just be sure to read the Sony Manual about the various menu settings related to controlling the audio inputs on the camera. There are some gotchas in there, particularly the "Audio Trim," which has caused some clipping for some of my colleagues, though thankfully not for me. So, do beware.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Michael GissingRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:07:10 am

Thanks for the heads up (or should it be ears up?) David.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 9:39:09 am

It's not that easy. F3 cant handle canon glass, for one reason.

[David Roth Weiss] "I honestly can't imagine why anyone would pick either camera over a Sony F3."

XDCam might not be a best for some.

As far as I'm concerned, f3 and c300 record similar codecs.

8 bit, Rafa.


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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 11:19:11 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I honestly can't imagine why anyone would pick either camera over a Sony F3.
"


I can...

Firstly, Electronic EF mount, not a dumb mount like on the F3. Being able to properly use my L series lenses is a big deal, a very big deal. You can even use AF on Scarlet but not on the C300...

DSMC. I shoot stills and video. Like DSLRs, I only need one system to do that with Scarlet.

Swappable mounts. Being a able to swap from EF to PL mount in a couple of minutes is also very attractive.

Affordable 4K projection is coming soon. Affordable 4k monitors are coming soon. 1080p won't cut it...

RAW workflow offers unparalleled versatility.

It's also a good choice for anyone wanting to build a system that takes advantage of the same accessories as Epic - buy Scarlet, rent Epic is a very good way to go for many people. Try shooting 300 frames per second on that F3...

That said, the F3 supports fast workflows and is a great camera for 1080p. I may still buy one. I'm not convinced by the Canon even though it has a BBC approved codec, but I guess they had to let their video engineers release it before the photographic R&D team clean-up with the release of the 5DmkIII or whatever EOS Cinema moniker they decide to give it.

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 1:49:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "XDCam might not be a best for some.

As far as I'm concerned, f3 and c300 record similar codecs.

8 bit, Rafa."

Right Jeremy but said "because the SDI out": Dual-link Uncompressed 10bRGB-4444 which now is possible to record in the GEMINI 4.4.4 (DPX).
http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Gemini444/tabid/1870/Default.aspx


[Liam Hall] "Try shooting 300 frames per second on that F3...

That said, the F3 supports fast workflows and is a great camera for 1080p."

David was talking about standard HD.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 2:25:36 pm

[Rafael Amador] "[Liam Hall] "Try shooting 300 frames per second on that F3...

That said, the F3 supports fast workflows and is a great camera for 1080p."
David was talking about standard HD.
rafael
"


I'm not not sure what point you are making??

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 2:54:27 pm

[Liam Hall] "I'm not not sure what point you are making??"

The point is that when david wrote :

"I honestly can't imagine why anyone would pick either camera over a Sony F3.

hi was replaying me about shooting plain HD (1080i50/60,p24/25... etc).
I'm sure David wouldn't try to shot 300fps or 4K with an F3.

[Liam Hall] "That said, the F3 supports fast workflows and is a great camera for 1080p"
Right that.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 3:47:09 pm

[Rafael Amador] "[Liam Hall] "I'm not not sure what point you are making??"

The point is that when david wrote :

"I honestly can't imagine why anyone would pick either camera over a Sony F3.

hi was replaying me about shooting plain HD (1080i50/60,p24/25... etc).
I'm sure David wouldn't try to shot 300fps or 4K with an F3.

[Liam Hall] "That said, the F3 supports fast workflows and is a great camera for 1080p"
Right that.
rafael

"


I saw your comment. I thought David was making a general comment on purchasing the F3 over a Scarlet or C300 since he was pushing the F3 earlier in the thread. Either way, the ability to use EF lenses on Scarlet, take advantage of 4k capture and build a range of accessories that integrate with Epic make it a very attractive proposition for 1080 delivery.

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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David Roth WeissRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:56:35 pm

Liam,

In all honesty, I was kind of suggesting, in part, that no one on the FCPX Forum needed anything more than 1080p. Maybe that was a tad presumptuous, but certainly not a huge stretch. Right?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Liam HallRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 5:47:35 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Liam,

In all honesty, I was kind of suggesting, in part, that no one on the FCPX Forum needed anything more than 1080p. Maybe that was a tad presumptuous, but certainly not a huge stretch. Right?"


Maybe a tad. FCPX does have 4K support after all:)

In truth, I did two jobs for 4K delivery last year and though I've done none this year I do expect to do a lot more cinema resolution jobs in the near future. 4K projectors will be the last piece of the puzzle to make this an affordable and exciting opportunity for my clients.

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 6, 2011 at 4:14:17 pm

[Rafael Amador] "After seen this, i think they are cameras for very different kind of needs.
I wouldn't compare the Canon with the RScarlet, but with the SONY F3.

The Scarlet makes sense if you need to shot something different than standard HD.
But to shot HD I think I wouldn't go to the Canon, but to the F3 because the SDI out options."


These newer generation red camera now have clean 1080p SDI out. If using a KiPro, you a even record camera metadata that will allow an easy reconform back to r3d if you want the Raw for color correction.

If not, then you can just use the 1080p ProRes files.


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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 2:39:58 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "These newer generation red camera now have clean 1080p SDI out. If using a KiPro, you a even record camera metadata that will allow an easy reconform back to r3d if you want the Raw for color correction.

If not, then you can just use the 1080p ProRes files."

Just to ask (I've never worked with that kind of stuff) is that a better option than the F3 10b/RGB?

I have to say that my preference for the F3 is biased because is a one-man camera.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 12:38:38 pm

[Rafael Amador] "Just to ask (I've never worked with that kind of stuff) is that a better option than the F3 10b/RGB?"

You can't get dual link out of the Red, but there's really no reason to.

This will get you 422 proxies (in whatever flavor of ProRes you want) with an easy match back to the raw files which you can then render out to 444 if you want or need it.

[Rafael Amador] "I have to say that my preference for the F3 is biased because is a one-man camera. "

Meaning it takes one person to use it? How is the F3 different than other cameras in its class in this regard?


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Rafael AmadorRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 1:56:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Meaning it takes one person to use it? How is the F3 different than other cameras in its class in this regard?"
for what I see in the pictures is not not much different (je, je) than my EX-1, with his handle LCD, viewfinder...
The longer body of the f3 seems to be easier to balance and easier to manage for handheld or with a normal shoulder pad. Easier to work with the camera in low positions (handle, LCD), two REC buttons).
Also seems to have more space for all the buttons and controls and the kind of buttons and control and in the positions I'm used to.
As i said, up to the pictures, for me looks easier for the run&gun, for taking it out of the bag and start shooting.
BTW, something I like from the Canon is that records on CompactFlash cards.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 7, 2011 at 3:46:06 pm

I see, you think the ergonomics are better suited. Fair point, I think it all depends on what kinds of lenses you use any any interchangeable camera and just how shallow of DOF you are willing to use.

All of these camera are different in their ergonomics than traditional ENG, or even film cameras. I think it's an adjustment no matter which one you use if you are used to electronic zoom lenses.

Looks like the Red and the Canon cameras have means of wireless electronic control (iPad for Canon, Redmote for Red). I'm not sure if Sony offers anything like that, I haven't investigated it.

[Rafael Amador] "BTW, something I like from the Canon is that records on CompactFlash cards."

Yes. It can be seen as an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it. It is certainly less expensive, which is an advantage to the wallet! :)

Jeremy


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Tim WilsonRe: Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
by on Nov 15, 2011 at 5:10:06 pm

Since several folks here have mentioned the F3, I'll direct you to a new article in the COW library, about the first feature shot with the F3 in S-LOG mode, "Ghost of Goodnight Lane."

It's a great article, written by long-time COW Jonny Revolt. It gets into support platforms, recording, IIF-ACES workflow, and lots of other cool stuff.

Note that it's a great story about the production itself, rather than a proper review, but feel free to ask any more specific questions about the F3 and related workflows in the comments section for the article, which you find here.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine

My Blog: "Is this thing on? Oh it's on!"

Don't forget to rate your favorite posts!


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