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macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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kim krausemacbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 8:04:02 am

what can i say? 10 years ago i saw an early version of final cut running on a white mac book....it soon became an industry standard. last week i got to see fcpx running on a macbook air and had a complete deja vu experience.....i'm sure once fcpx runs on an iPad we are all in for a shock!


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 9:37:34 am

surely a 13" screen can't be considered an ideal editing environment? 15" is about my limit.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andreas KielRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 10:57:10 am

What kind of shock?

The iPad is quite a good control surface, in some cases an excellent one.

But if I would do editing I would miss a keyboard, as the current way (of most tablets) is not convenient for editing as it always covers a big part of the screen and with the iPad you have to toggle between letters and numbers.
That's definitively no fun, and what's about the material? Where does it come from?

Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 2:03:40 pm

The revolution will be the same thing only different.

It's going to happen in stages over a few years. It may be editing proxies in the cloud in some cases. It may also include a greater reliance on gestures (although that's hard for me personally so far).

ENG is going to change. The old won't be gone but the new way will be in places where the current method doesn't work very well.

Thunderbolt in on the MBAir. The "CPU" becomes nothing more than a brain with software that controls devices. Certainly some brains will be more powerful than others.

I see two directions beginning to evolve. The facility with brains linking to central storage and control. Portability in which storage isn't always brought along.

FCPX will be modular and scalable... as will the hardware.



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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 7:36:15 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Thunderbolt in on the MBAir. The "CPU" becomes nothing more than a brain with software that controls devices. Certainly some brains will be more powerful than others."


Or a really smart hard disk. This is something I think I'll probably try, though I may wait for the next generation of MB airs. Usually, I go to a facility or a Studio to transfer my source materials onto a G-RAID. I'm wondering if I transferred to a MBAir, and through the course of the day, as I sat waiting to talk to clients, at lunch, waiting in the car pool line to pick up my daughter, etc., I could make a little headway on my selects, and then, plug the MBair in via target drive to my 8 or whatever core and use it as a disk. It is SSD. TBolt DOES support target mode. I wonder if I could get enough speed. The idea of a super smart hard drive is kind of interesting.


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Andrew RichardsRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 5:42:17 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I'm wondering if I transferred to a MBAir, and through the course of the day, as I sat waiting to talk to clients, at lunch, waiting in the car pool line to pick up my daughter, etc., I could make a little headway on my selects, and then, plug the MBair in via target drive to my 8 or whatever core and use it as a disk. It is SSD. TBolt DOES support target mode. I wonder if I could get enough speed."

If you don't mind cracking open the case, or if Apple adopts 6G SATA SSDs, you will be able to get some very impressive speeds.

Best,
Andy


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Andy NeilRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:15:36 pm

[Chris Harlan] "'m wondering if I transferred to a MBAir, and through the course of the day, as I sat waiting to talk to clients, at lunch, waiting in the car pool line to pick up my daughter, etc., I could make a little headway on my selects, and then, plug the MBair in via target drive to my 8 or whatever core and use it as a disk. It is SSD."

Gawd, that sounds depressing. I do enough work at work. Sometimes I just need to unplug from the Machine. It's bad enough that clients and bosses expect me to answer their emails on the weekend...editing while waiting in line at the ATM or whatever might make my head explode.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:19:06 pm

[Andy Neil][E]diting while waiting in line at the ATM or whatever might make my head explode.

Yeah, I don't understand this whole fascination with "editing on the go" like an iPad or an iPhone would bring. I can already edit on the go on my laptop. Why do I need another level of being able to work?


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 10:31:11 pm

[Gary Huff] "Yeah, I don't understand this whole fascination with "editing on the go" like an iPad or an iPhone would bring. I can already edit on the go on my laptop. Why do I need another level of being able to work?
"


You certainly don't need to do anything you don't want to do. If it makes no sense to you, don't do it. I don't need it either. But, I like it. I like what I do. And, that I can get little bits of it done in many different places makes me happier. Its nice to get out of the bay sometimes. If that is hard for you to understand, then I probably couldn't explain it to you. Similarly, I'm guessing you would have a great deal of difficulty explaining to me why such jaunts are a waste of time. I guess we'll just have to live with that.

FWIW, I agree with you about the iPhone and maybe the iPad, but a little Macbook air for doing sellects in a coffee shop by the beach? I could take that now and then.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 1:44:12 am

[Chris Harlan]FWIW, I agree with you about the iPhone and maybe the iPad, but a little Macbook air for doing sellects in a coffee shop by the beach? I could take that now and then.

No disagreement there. But I think those who are touting iPad video editing would probably end up doing it a handful of times for the novelty of it, then never touch it again.


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:27:32 pm

[Gary Huff] "I think those who are touting iPad video editing would probably end up doing it a handful of times for the novelty of it, then never touch it again."

Oh, I agree. After a year and a half with an iPad, my thinking on them is that they are useful, but do not in any way represent the end of keyboard computers. After the gee-wiz factor wore off, I realized fairly quickly that mice, tablets and track pads are often far more useful to me than direct screen touch. In fact, one of the best used for the iPad is as a smart, visually enabled trackpad for other devices. I use it as a controller all the time.

Of course, what do we mean by editing? While I was Google-exploring whether or not FCP X could work on a MacBook Air, I came across a bit of video that somebody claimed to have edited with X/Air. In fact, they head-lined that fact on their blog. It was family footage with four or five cuts that went on for three or four minutes. So, I'm guessing iPad/X will be just fine for him.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:16:35 pm

[Chris Harlan]Of course, what do we mean by editing? While I was Google-exploring whether or not FCP X could work on a MacBook Air, I came across a bit of video that somebody claimed to have edited with X/Air. In fact, they head-lined that fact on their blog. It was family footage with four or five cuts that went on for three or four minutes. So, I'm guessing iPad/X will be just fine for him.

That's a good point. I would say "editing" in these modern times is not only cutting clips together, but also motion graphics/VFX (even if limited in fashion)/color correction. How many job postings looking for "editors" also want After Effects or even Maya experience as well? How often do you simply do a straight edit and leave it at that? It's super rare for me to just edit.


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 9:16:29 pm

[Andy Neil] "Gawd, that sounds depressing. I do enough work at work. Sometimes I just need to unplug from the Machine. It's bad enough that clients and bosses expect me to answer their emails on the weekend...editing while waiting in line at the ATM or whatever might make my head explode."

Wow. I guess one man's prison is another's freedom. Little electronic time-savers have made me extremely mobile over the years. They've made it possible for me to raise my daughter, and experience a kind of freedom I never thought possible when I joined the workforce.

Add to that, that I really enjoy what I do. For me, pulling sellects is more fun than Angry Birds. Of course, I've been fortunate enough to work on some prime entertainment material over the years, so that makes it easier. As for my clients and co-workers, I'm happy to take their calls, emails, and texts any time they think it is important for them to get ahold of me. Again, I'm fortunate enough, generally, to work for/with some very savvy, sensitive people who are as respectful of my time as I am of theirs.


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Chris KennyRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 2:08:48 pm

The UI would require some retooling, but iPad editing could probably be made to work pretty well. Use the iPad in portrait mode, with the event browser on the top half and the timeline on the bottom. Sit on your living room couch with the thing, and have the viewer displayed on the HDTV in front of you via AirPlay.

The future is going to be interesting.

Has it occurred to anyone that the magnetic timeline's ripple-by-default behavior is going to feel about a zillion times more natural than potential alternatives with a touch interface? By causing clips to bump each other out of the way if they try to occupy the same space, Apple has made clips behave more like physical objects, an approach that makes much more sense with direct manipulation. On an iPad version of FCP X, you'll simply be able to grab clips and sling them around, without worrying about opening gaps or overwriting anything. Want to swap the positions of two clips? Just grab them both at once and drag.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Gerald BariaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 12:19:20 am

[Chris Kenny] " the magnetic timeline's ripple-by-default behavior is going to feel about a zillion times more natural than potential alternatives with a touch interface?"

This is exactly what I thought when I saw FCPX's new look. It closely follows Apples Human Interface Guidelines of using physical metaphors to make the design more engaging and using those metaphors as functionality. Using touch, It will just feel "natural", taking us back to the old days when film was cut using, you know, your hands. What can you say now purists?!

Quobetah
New=Better


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 2:19:47 pm

So? MacBook Air is just a computer, albeit a very light, portable system. Besides, how portable is it when you have to lug around the Thunderbolt peripheral in order to have the power you need to not have to wait for days for an export?

And I think iPad editing will happen, but won't become the norm. Are people really not aware how annoying editing a typical project would be with a touchscreen interface? As a control surface, yes. iPad + Resolve would probably be useful.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 6:00:57 pm

What about a 15" iPad?


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 7:18:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What about a 15" iPad?"

Why stop there? 17" iPad would be swell.


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 6:40:06 pm

[Gary Huff] "Are people really not aware how annoying editing a typical project would be with a touchscreen interface? As a control surface, yes. iPad + Resolve would probably be useful."

Agreed. I can see doing simple things with an iPad like marking in and outs or ranges when cutting something down, for instance. BUT, not only is it a small screen, but my hands would constantly be getting in the way of what I'm looking at. I have a Cinteq that is the size of an iPad; it makes a good controller, and is very good for a natural feel when drawing, but I find masking actually a little easier with a traditional tablet and screen, where my hands are not sometimes blocking my view.


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Bill DavisRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 8:18:55 pm

So why are you stuck using your hands?

FCP-X running on an iPad - with a small bluetooth keyboard in play - gives you a simple travel system that could do basic rough cuts incredibly well.

My wife is doing a rough cut of a string of interviews in FCP-X right now destined for a client window dub. That means opening each card, using I and O to mark very rough in and out points on each clip in the Event Library, hitting E to append each select to the magnetic timeline - and moving on.

It's super efficient. Much quicker than Log&Capture, drag to a timeline and trim the head and tail of each clip.

It's the kind of editing prep task where the magnetic timeline really shines.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 10:00:33 pm

Argh. Bill you are an olympic contrarian. Did you actually even read my comment? I said an iPad would be fine for exactly what your wive is now doing. Plus, how is a Macbook Air more clunky on the road than an iPad and a keyboard? Aren't we getting a little overly granular in terms of debate? Am I not able to talk about my personal preferences and experience without another "you're just not seeing the big picture" lecture? Chill a little, huh?


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 11:49:22 pm

[Chris Harlan]Aren't we getting a little overly granular in terms of debate? Am I not able to talk about my personal preferences and experience without another "you're just not seeing the big picture" lecture? Chill a little, huh?

Because you have to embrace the future, Chris, or risk being those old fuddy duddies that get made fun of on TV!


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 25, 2011 at 11:37:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "
FCP-X running on an iPad - with a small bluetooth keyboard in play - gives you a simple travel system that could do basic rough cuts incredibly well.
"


Incredibly well.

I'm going to take issue here -how does it do it incredibly well?

what are you talking about? what ipad is doing this? how is the bluetooth keyboard interacting with my hands? how am I accessing menu commands? Is this an unseen new FCP on an unseen new ipad? how do they function? How am I working with the timeline? Am I exposing full OSX to manage events?
is the ipad in landscape? Am I viewing the entire interface? how is project management functioning? Is there a card reader? Am I trying to source multiple streams over wifi? is there local storage?

this is idealised, magical thinking. It's not much of any use, in any debate.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim WilsonRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 1:35:15 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] " Is this an unseen new FCP on an unseen new ipad? how do they function? How am I working with the timeline? Am I exposing full OSX to manage events? is the ipad in landscape? Am I viewing the entire interface? how is project management functioning?"

I've spent a lot of time with the iPad versions of iWorks, and I have two general conclusions:

1) Wow! These things are amazing! You can do so much with them!

2) Wow! These things are awful! You can't do sh^t with them!

Please indulge me. This might look off-topic, but it's not.

  • You can use your iPhone as a remote control for Keynote on a laptop or desktop - awesome! You can actually see the slides on your iPhone. But you can't use iPhone to control a presentation on an iPad. Not a deal-breaker, but dang!

  • You can BUILD a presentation in portrait mode. You can click through it. Looks AWESOME on an iPad. Perfect for a pitch related to a MAGAZINE, like the one I edit for Creative COW. Only one problem - you BUILD in portrait, but can't actually PRESENT in portrait. Only in landscape.

  • You can do a portrait preso on a laptop or desktop, but why not be able to do it on something that actually looks fantastic in portrait? For example, that's how they mostly show iPad on TV...as they should. Which is why I should be able to actually make a presentation in portrait if I want to...like I can on a desktop...where it makes no sense. Grrrr.....
  • ---That was my plan, btw. I was pitching something magazine-ish to four people. I was going to give them each their own iPad, and was going to control it from my iPhone. How cool would that be?!?! Except it didn't work at all. Would have on a laptop or desktop, but....
  • I rebuilt the preso in landscape (harder than it sounds), and decided to just live with it. People were going to have to figure out how to tap the screen when I told them to.

  • Here's the kicker. You build the preso on your laptop or desktop, so you want to use iTunes to transfer it to your iPad. Right? Apple makes that nice and easy. Except that using iTunes to transfer strips out all the fonts and the stock backgrounds you built on your desktop! You have to connect to the internet and REDOWNLOAD them.

    Do not try to do this on hotel wi-fi on the Monday morning of NAB. Downloading two fonts and a very simple 2-color background JPG to four iPads -- took a little over an hour.

  • Remember when I said that you can only do a presentation in landscape mode? Well, if you want to project it on a screen, you can only put it in the iPad dock in PORTRAIT mode!!! I can feel the deal starting to break.

  • Then there's the well-documented bug in Pages, where you create a document on your main machine with, say, footnotes. A feature that doesn't exist on your iPad version of Pages. Having learned your lesson with iTunes and Keynote, you decide to use iDisk. Sweet! Then when you open the document on your iPad, you see there's a typo. Oops! No prob. The file is in the cloud. Two clicks, Save. The best part: the file will be corrected everywhere else you need it too!

  • Except now when you open it back up on your desktop, ALL THE FOOTNOTES ARE GONE. By making one tiny change, and saving it on iDisk, EVERY feature not available in the iPad version is stripped from the original version created on the desktop. How's THAT for version tracking.

    Look, I get that having 100% of the laptop toolset on an iPad would be a nightmare. Not good at all, even for something as simple as Pages. But I'd love to be able to change the word "to" to "too," and not destroy an entire set of mission-critical attributes on the original. Deal: officially broken. I now do everything with PDFs. Inelegant, but it works every single time, which I simply can't say for iWork when using it to actually work.


I surely have a detail or two wrong, and Apple surely fixed some of these bugs, right? RIGHT?

But this is why, when I hear about FCPX on an iPad, I think two things:

1) This is going to be amazing! Next-gen hardware and software for on-set and location workflows that were never possible before!

2) This is going to be a nightmare! Apple's simplest software cannibalizes itself on iPad! This could decimate workflows in ways that were never possible before!

I still come down on the side of "It's probably going to be insanely great someday," but seriously, let's start with today. Keynote and Pages are very simple apps that have been around a long time, and as awesome as it is when it works, working with documents across a laptop and iPad can be torture, and can undo days of work with a keystroke that can't be done. "Save" should never be an act of destruction.

FCPX is both complex and new. Will the first app that Apple does RIGHT on iPad really be FCPX? Can Apple make FCPX on iPad more proficient and more stable than Keynote or Pages? With better version tracking than for a TEXT file? Really?

Note that iPads are my all-time favorite Apple products. iPods were always overpriced and underfeatured. No use for them whatsoever. Macs? Been using 'em since my father ran Apple's first manufacturing facility. He actually started in 1979. I've used nearly every model computer Apple made since then, but hey, I like Windows too. Whatever. iPhone? The worst piece of tech I ever owned, at least on AT&T. My bowels still loosen just thinking about the agony I went through with that thing.

iPad? I love every single thing about it. I can't think of a single thing I don't absolutely love, and I mean LOVE about it. iPad! Woo-hoo! I actually have a tattoo of an iPad ON my actual woo-hoo! I love everything about it!!!

Oh yeah, except one thing. I hate how Apple software runs on my iPad.

I'm just saying.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 2:48:51 am

well quite, (he said calmly waving through his total lack of experience in the work scenarios described) - lord knows I am mortally locked to my ipad - it is about the single best computing device I've ever owned. bar the college performa - go gil amelio.

still - the idea that we can somehow start talking about how a troubled editing system is going to ride into the future, in part on the back of ten inch consumption devices, is lunacy?

FCPX, as a character, surely has its own problems to face before it ever considers reduced touch based scenarios. Having any film school choose to teach it say would be one. Its not all about 6" macbook airs with 40GB per second straw lightning connections people.

it needs to be an inherently valid editing system first doesn't it?
Have they produced an actually true editing system? does it feel like one? does it retain enough of the characteristics? When they set down to build this, given their broader concerns, does anyone actually think this was built for editors? or were they co-opting the editing process for their broader audience? didn't they insert the digital asset management system from the other apps? the timeline from imovie? the yellow bounding boxes are most recently from mobile?

on some level why can't we get the fact that they took the name and populated it with a number of parts from other apple consumer apps?

this isn't an editing system, he said, wildly over the top, it's a pick-n-mix grab bag of apple consumer technology to foster non traditional consumer software purchasing habits - as in - would joe bloggs drop the price of an ipod on supposedly accessible MTV Hollywood software, so that when he walked into it, it felt felt like most of iLife?

If this were so, then, given apple's motivations here, let us all just continue to stand on this software's neck.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 3:27:02 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "it's a pick-n-mix grab bag"

Apple creates ecosystems. They're tying things together. It's very incomplete though. We'll have to see how Apple handles the other pieces in the upcoming months. How will the new hardware (MacPro or replacement) and other software elements fit together.



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Tim WilsonRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 4:04:11 am

[Craig Seeman] "How will the new hardware (MacPro or replacement) and other software elements fit together."

A much succincter way to set up my conclusion: their efforts so far with regards to tying the iPad apps to laptop/desktop apps are abysmal. I'm not looking for miracles: just for the experience to be as good as Apple has led me to believe it should be.

Goodness knows there are already compelling apps for iPads in production - everything from slates to stereoscopic tools to front-end controllers for SANs and switchers. I can see a number of places for FCPX on an iPad in those ecosystems.

Again, not to piss on Apple for the sake of it, and without reference to the value of FCPX or iPads, but I can also imagine the relationship between iPad apps and computer apps being a bit wobbly if the present pattern holds. This would be a fun one to be wrong on, though.


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kim krauseRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 9:06:46 am

i really started something here...again!


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 1:12:26 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple creates ecosystems. They're tying things together. "

no that's wrong, a pic-n-mix grab bag of stuff does not equate to an eco-system, the eco-system is outside vendor stuff. that's not the grab bag. the grab bag is a mess of concepts and approaches wedged in from other consumer apple software. We've got iphoto events, the imovie timeline, the yellow boxes I last saw making finger based selections on an iphone - it's not an editing system, its a spliced together mess that doesn't know what its trying to be.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 2:32:11 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "no that's wrong, a pic-n-mix grab bag of stuff does not equate to an eco-system, the eco-system is outside vendor stuff."

Whether you use iPhoto, Aperture, iMovie, Mail, etc. they want you to have the same interface. Smart folders is a good example. It's a "unified" approach. That's how Apple works, like it or not. If all you ever use is FCPX you get features that a Mail user would understand. It's the common way all Apple apps find media, photos, audio, video clips. All their apps have common elements. It's not a grab bag. It very conscious and deliberate. I wouldn't even be surprised if they replace Final Cut Server with a front end that looks like an amalgamation of all the above.



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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 2:43:29 pm

and we're supposed to call the result of all this an editing system?

also...

[Craig Seeman] " I wouldn't even be surprised if they replace Final Cut Server with a front end that looks like an amalgamation of all the above."

what - you mean a future final cut server could look like a mash up of iPhoto, Aperture, iMovie and Mail??

craig, for gods sake please, that makeee no sense. no sense at all. what you are suggesting is insane..

its unholy.








http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 3:16:23 pm

As I said, like it or not, this is what Apple moves towards it's unified interface. This is where Apple diverges from a company that is dedicated to NLEs.

I've heard enough criticism of Adobe product interfaces/GUI to believe that Apple's approach doesn't put it at a disadvantage. They're different ways of doing things. Each has pluses and minuses.



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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:21:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "craig, for gods sake please, that makeee no sense. no sense at all. what you are suggesting is insane.."

Are you in the camp where simplicity and ease means "unprofessional"?

Just curious. Just asking. Not starting fights.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:33:19 pm

I tiptoe in response jeremy.

no, sure of course, although I find the concept of easy a tricky one - how would you make maya easy? or architectural programs? aren't they complex insofar as they represent complex tasks? Isn't editing a fairly complex task?

but that's not the thing - the contention that generic aspects of apple software from iphoto, imovie, mail, the finder, can be bolted together as craig has it there, and create a coherent application for something as specific as editing is something I have a very hard time swallowing.

Events are not appropriate, in my opinion, to editing, they are a straight unadorned drop in from a totally different apple programme that serves different purposes for different users, and they just plopped it into this programme, and given the crazy work arounds and hacks, i think its fair to say that it doesn't work very well. And that's where we're supposed to put and find our stuff.
trying to develop out from the single track imovie timeline, with bodges like secondary storylines hasn't maybe worked too great either.

It feels frankensteinish, to me at any rate, as an application. it feels misshapen. And there's way too much chrome.
But I am a crotchety insane old man on that point. lots of people seem to like the look of it.


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Gerald BariaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 8:25:56 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "how would you make maya easy? "

Umm..autodesk just did http://www.tuaw.com/2011/09/21/daily-ipad-app-123d-sculpt/

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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 8:31:22 pm

"[Aindreas Gallagher] "how would you make maya easy? "

[Gerald Baria] "Umm..autodesk just did http://www.tuaw.com/2011/09/21/daily-ipad-app-123d-sculpt/"

Respectfully, sculpting or sculpting/painting apps (including this, as well as other apps like Zbrush and Mudbox) are totally different in feature set, scope, intended purpose, and use than generalist 3D apps like Maya.

I actually even hesitate to call Maya an application; it is so immensely extensible that it's more like a platform.

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 8:49:27 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "aren't they complex insofar as they represent complex tasks?"

Absolutely. Editing isn't like building a sky scraper, but I am sure that computers have made building buildings much "easier", at least to design. The carrying out of the deed, is surely complex.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Events are not appropriate, in my opinion,"

You mean how the Events work on a finder level (ie, the files live there), or how they operate in FCPX (ie keyword collections, et al)?

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It feels frankensteinish, to me at any rate, as an application."

Yes, the whole picture isn't there yet, I agree, so it might be hard to grasp what the hell is going on.

I just can't accept the point of easier equals worse. Not working equals worse, but easier doesn't always equal worse.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 9:17:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You mean how the Events work.. or how they operate in FCPX"

i mean the basic fact that we're dealing semantically with events as persistent entities, that default as time based events - it makes sense in photo applications because the items are singular and self similar, literally snapshots, and my understanding of what has taken place is based in part on my participation in it - it was an event, I took some photos at it. I am now doing some adjustments and storing them in my DAM.

If I walk into an editing house to do some freelance, or I'm handed a brief by my boss, the event that is taking place is me walking in the door, firing up FCP and setting the preferences appropriate for the project I'm being paid to cut and reading the brief - that's the event. the idea that the first thing I see is everything that ever happened on that machine is nothing short of a joke. An editing system is a clean repeat machine - it is not supposed to function as a full blown persistent digital assets repository like iphoto or aperture - editing systems cycle repeatedly through new projects afresh - the idea that FCPX accretes everything constantly, every piece of media its ever used and every project that has been cut on it, and exposes all that to you unless you pay phillip hodgetts to turn it off is really annoying and deeply sad.

Its sad because its a stupid, stupid idea to do that to an editing system, even a single user system, its stupid - and all that means is that there isn't much of a pro apps brain trust left in apple. I said above in the thread that there is stuff out there saying the XML spec is a mess - its barely documented, and it doesn't even reliably carry DB levels. The whole thing just reeks of bad news brown.

If apple want a DAM they have to put it in back like adobe bridge - in terms of what's actually going on in the top left of my application - its one of the things that is wrecking FCPX - if we pull the event DAM back out somehow maybe some space gets freed up up there and they can figure out how to fix all the filmstrip mess and the lack of a source monitor.

I personally think there are massive problems with this software. Big ol' cracks running up all the supporting walls.


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Steve ConnorRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 9:55:34 pm

You don't have to pay Philip to move events, you can actually do it manually by moving the folders, it's not a problem and it takes no time at all. Think of events as a box of tapes in the edit suite, if you choose to keep them then they will hang around and stink up the place, however you can choose to put the tapes back in the tape store when you've finished with them.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 10:10:35 pm

Yeah, but - us having to throw things around in the finder to hide them from FCPX doesn't negate the point that what we're doing is trying to turn the DAM off, or manually turn off sets of events because its wrecking our heads, because it's a stupid thing to have put front and centre in a single window editing app in the first place. why is the editing app simultaneously intended to function as a monolithic digital assets repository? why are my project assets in a sea of all the other assets there have ever been? Editorially, commercially, intellectually, that is just the stupidest, stupidest idea.
that we have a way to deal with it is separate from them having wedged the events DAM from a totally different application in in the first place.

I think its a mess and I don't think they can fix it because its burnt in at the AV level. the kind of project container we had isn't possible anymore I don't think..


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Gerald BariaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:52:47 am

Hmm..as much as I observe. Your issues with FCPX are purely personal fetishes/preferrences. It is irrelevant to "how an editing suite should function in today's world" idea, rather its all just nitpicking.

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kim krauseRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:28:00 am

actually i am fascinated by technology and how we can use it in creative ways...it's not a fetish just curiousity. do me a favor and save this message. in 2 years time mail me back with an apology if what i've observed doesn't come to pass. i don't know why people get so upset with me when i mention that things are changing...check out gary adcocks blog and you'll see that i'm not that far off! no go do something constructive with your time....


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:39:43 pm

[kim krause]do me a favor and save this message. in 2 years time mail me back with an apology if what i've observed doesn't come to pass.

I think you meant to say that we should e-mail you with an apology if you're correct. I don't think anyone will care one way or another.

[I] don't know why people get so upset with me when i mention that things are changing.

Kim, here's a helpful life hint for you: don't toss around the idea of people getting "upset" simply because they don't agree with your assessment. If they call you names or pull their hair out or start typing in all caps, then you might be correct in referring to it as that. But if you say, "I think the sky is red." and someone says, "No, Kim, I think the the sky is blue." and your response is along the lines of, "Why are you upset with me?!?! Is it because you know I'm right and don't want to admit it?!" then that makes you look like a tool.


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kim krauseRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:06:44 pm

thanks gary...i'll take that as a compliment...after all a tool is useful...and as for my typing mistake earlier, i think you got the drift. all i'm saying is i have a strong feeling we are in for a lot of change. every time i bring it up i get shot down by so called professionals who think they know better..and i have been insulted a few times but i could care less. one idiot on this forum even went so far as to tell me that because i was a female i was reacting way too emotionally....he didn't even bother to ask if i was male or female (not that it matters but i'm a guy) i am merely trying to get people to see that change is coming and it's gonna be alright. instead i get attacked by arrogant people telling me that what do i know! guess i shouldn't care so much and just leave them alone to find out for themselves and quit trying to be like noah herding all the animals on the boat before the rains hit. and stop insulting me with your life lessons. i learn from life and after 55+ years i doubt there is much you could tell me!


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:23:22 pm

[kim krause]every time i bring it up i get shot down by so called professionals who think they know better.

A professional is someone who make their living primarily by their work in video production, not as to whether or not they agree with your opinion.

and i have been insulted a few times but i could care less.

Yet you keep bringing it up, so it obviously bothers you.

one idiot on this forum even went so far as to tell me that because i was a female i was reacting way too emotionally.

I guess taking the high road was too much for you, eh?

instead i get attacked by arrogant people telling me that what do i know!

Again, your definition of "attacked" is really stretching things. I haven't seen anything of the nature you're talking about, besides the comment about you being female. Persecution complex much?

guess i shouldn't care so much and just leave them alone to find out for themselves and quit trying to be like noah herding all the animals on the boat before the rains hit.

Oh, so now your opinion is so correct that people who don't agree do so at the risk of their own financial peril. I see.

and stop insulting me with your life lessons. i learn from life and after 55+ years i doubt there is much you could tell me!

Arrogant, aren't you? Let me tell you something. I know plenty of men and women who have gone through life without apparently learning much of anything. Just because you've lived for a certain amount of years doesn't mean you have an ounce of wisdom in your head. You live and die by what you say and do, not by how much supposed experience we should automatically grant you to have once you've reached a certain number of years.


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kim krauseRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:41:39 pm

who's the arrogant one....i hear you talking but i think it's all ego....you can't seem to take criticism yet you find joy in pointing out my flaws...and it does bother me that someone (your friend mr weiss to be exact) has the attitude that females are all emotional..only a sexist pig would say something like that. what makes you think you are so damn superior anyway and that you have all the answers...talk about cocky and full of himself .and one more thing.. learn to respect your elders you little brat!


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:57:05 pm

Guys, can we not ruin another perfectly good discourse? Please?


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 12:18:16 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Guys, can we not ruin another perfectly good discourse? Please?


"


Seconded.


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Gerald BariaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:12:19 pm

I was replying to Aindreas posts back there.

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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 1:31:27 pm

[Gerald Baria] "personal fetishes"


mmokay.


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Gerald BariaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 6:41:47 am

;D

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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 9:56:56 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I personally think there are massive problems with this software. Big ol' cracks running up all the supporting walls."

That's interesting. Just out of curiosity, you think FCP7 was much better? I guess I see it as opposite. FCP Legacy's database was full of holes, as was XML. It allowed things, but you couldn't get too deep with it.

The problem you mention of showing all events, is easily solvable. Yes, it might not be "convenient" right now to drag the event folders out of the FCP Events folder at this time, or pay $4.99 for an App that does, but to me, this is simple programming. What is more important is how strong that database is in terms of keeping track of media, and knowing what to do with it, and how fast it can be accessed and flipped, or whatever you need done.

It is true that Apple perhaps should not have released it in this state. Apple releases features slowly, they always have. They build a "platform" test the waters, see how it goes, garner feedback, build and shore up that platform, then add features. Remember, iPhones only had WebApps to begin with. It is no question that FCPX represents a departure from what is becoming the past (FCS3).

I think the entire language of FCPX is not apparent in the design yet. I do believe there is good reason for what we see now, we just don't have the whole picture.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 10:23:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just out of curiosity, you think FCP7 was much better? I guess I see it as opposite."

interesting. yes, yes I think FCP7 with all its faults is a superior editing system.

tell me this much - do you prefer editing in the FCPX timeline or the FCP7 timeline?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 12:48:33 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "tell me this much - do you prefer editing in the FCPX timeline or the FCP7 timeline?"

There are things I love about the FCPX timeline. Truly. After editing in FCPX for a while, then going back to FCP7, I start to realize just how much clicking and moving and sliding is happening in FCP7 to manipulate the timeline. With FCPX, I think less about that and the trimming is so much more convenient and fluid. An example of the inefficiency, in FCP7, if you need to do an insert edit in V1 underneath something in V2, FCP7 will split the V2 clip. This doesn't happen in FCPX, things just move out of the way and adjust, and most of the time it's what you want it to do. If you could prioritize the hierarcy of the timeline in FCPX with some sort of target system, or sort system, it'd be even more powerful, and no, I don't mean tracks.

The lack of audio tracks in FCPX is getting to be less daunting. Roles aren't completely fleshed out, but once they get a bit more control, I can see how they will be very useful and in some ways better than audio tracks. I think it's an excellent start and I look forward to what happens next.

The lack of a viewer isn't a deal breaker for me, but there are times when I do miss it. I used the Gang function sometimes and when I did, it is very useful. That functionality is simply non-existent in X.

I do not mind trying new systems and watch them get better. If I had video out, I'd start doing real jobs. Not all jobs, but some.


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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:48:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Are you in the camp where simplicity and ease means "unprofessional"?"

I know you asked Aindreas, but I'd love to jump in here.

I think the phrasing here is a bit too reductive. I think a professional application should offer deep nuance, immense flexibility and total control. Simplicity and ease do not make an application unprofessional; the lack of these other qualities do.

The Holy Grail of professional applications combines all these things perfectly; in the real world, though, I think applications tend to tilt one way or another (and on the extremes, end up with "consumer" or "professional" labels).

Walter Soyka
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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 10:09:00 pm

[Walter Soyka] " I think a professional application should offer deep nuance, immense flexibility and total control. Simplicity and ease do not make an application unprofessional; the lack of these other qualities do.
"


Bazinga!


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Aindreas GallagherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 10:11:28 pm

yeah, thats really well put.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 10:17:40 pm

[Chris Harlan] "[Walter Soyka] " I think a professional application should offer deep nuance, immense flexibility and total control. Simplicity and ease do not make an application unprofessional; the lack of these other qualities do.
"

Bazinga!"


As I have mentioned before, when it comes to interface, making things simple is a really hard task. In my opinion, we are watching the growth of the application instead of getting what is supposed to be "finished".


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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 1:46:58 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "As I have mentioned before, when it comes to interface, making things simple is a really hard task. In my opinion, we are watching the growth of the application instead of getting what is supposed to be "finished"."

I agree. Simplicity doesn't come easily at all. I think that's at the root of the misunderstanding around the "pro apps must be complex" argument. An app doesn't have to be difficult to be professional, but it does have to handle complex functionality -- which makes it even harder to be simple.

What specifically do you mean by simplicity? An application can be easy to learn, easy to use, neither, or both. I think most pro apps are willing to be hard to learn, but strive to be easy to use and offer all the functionality that their user base expects.

FCPX will certainly grow and evolve, but I'm not sure how much fundamental interface change we'll see. As Aindreas and Craig have noted, FCPX's design is very consistent with other Apple applications. As David noted in the Digital Rebellion XML thread, the user interface actually reflects the internal data structure perfectly.

What would you like to see changed in the interface? To keep it on topic, would the changes you'd like to see make the application more suited to portability or a fixed system?

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 3:55:27 am

*edited for further clarity, sorry about that first pass*

[Walter Soyka] "What specifically do you mean by simplicity? An application can be easy to learn, easy to use, neither, or both. I think most pro apps are willing to be hard to learn, but strive to be easy to use and offer all the functionality that their user base expects."

It's hard to sum up as there are so many aspects, but I have read on this forum how X's interface is "dumbed down" and therefore by that definition must be inferior. While I don't think it's ready for primetime, I do not think it is dumbed down, actually I think it's more complex because it is "doing more for you" even though that control is limited at the moment. At it's core, FCPX is managaing massive amounts of data, which is fine by me, as massive amounts of data is what is coming through the shop. After a while, FCP7 chokes with even decent amounts of data forcing us to break up things in separate projects which have zero relationship to each other according to the computer, and FCP itself. With this notion, having all events available at all times starts to make more sense.

[Walter Soyka] "FCPX's design is very consistent with other Apple applications"

Call me crazy, but I like iTunes. Is it bad that I'm okay with FCPx being a little like iTunes? Mail sucks and I'd not use it (accept an iOS devices). I will admit that. FCPX I is more complex than both of those combined.

[Walter Soyka] " the user interface actually reflects the internal data structurey perfectly."

Perfectly is a pretty strong word. If the timeline is a database, it should be more "sortable" than it is now. Roles, I think, is the foundation of this. Tracks are a visual organizer which locks a user in to certain layer/stack order and also limits data processing. What if Roles could be sortable in the timeline with a click of a button so that the FCPX audio layers stack in the order you want in order to make visual sense? Or first sort by "this" parameter then by "that" parameter like any other database? All of a sudden, compound clips, secondary story lines, and other FCPX editing devices start to make more sense. With this notion, you could then sort at least the audio portion of the timeline if not video as well, visually, in any manner you want but keep the nature of the edit the same. This might begin to explain the seemingly FCPX oddities such as why dissolves go on story lines only, layer stacking ease in compound clips, the very nature of the primary storyline and what goes in it. This means no matter how the timeline is sorted vertically that it will play as intended without the 'top layer' being necessarily on top, however the timeline is sorted visually. Time (I think) would be the only constant of the visual timeline (or I guess it doesn't have to be with the timeline index). Why else would there be a transfer mode that layers clips with alpha channel information "on top" when the alpha clip is actually underneath the clip you are trying to composite over? Down is now up. It might also explain why horizontal clip relationships are now user denied instead of track defined.

All of that is pretty damn complex, and also does not resemble any Apple app that I am aware of. It also attempts to explain a trackless timeline, and the parent/child relationship in the new XML. If all of this is what is ultimately intended by Apple there is probably really good reason that Apple did not unleash this level of complexity at once. Mostly, it protects them as they release functions little by little to make sure they are working, and perhaps wait for certain Operating System functions to complete. As a result, it allows users to learn the language step by step before total immersion.

[Walter Soyka] "What would you like to see changed in the interface? To keep it on topic, would the changes you'd like to see make the application more suited to portability or a fixed system?"


Yes, back on topic, but first. I'd like to see more control over Roles, but I think I explained that. I'd like the massive amount of pre added metadata that is viewable in fcpx to be searchable in the Browser. I'd like to be able to spawn another viewer if I want for gang functions. I want a little more talking from the event to the timeline (change data in event, it updates in timeline, and vice versa; add compound clips from timeline to event, add other projects as a compound clip). I want more freedom in where my scopes go. I want an Effects index added to the timeline index. I want user defined color coding. I want custom masks to be able to be drawn in the viewer. I want the range tool to be a bit more precise and smart. Basically, more control of what's already there.

As far as portability, since FCPX has virtual " one click" proxy creation, a 15" (or whatever) Thunderbolt iPad sounds pretty good. Let's not forget that Thunderbolt is a display protocol as well, if you need more space you can add a monitor even if it was mirrored. So, after creating proxies on a more capable machine, I could take my work with me, work on a convenient device for where ever I am, then simply send the necessary data (via FCPXML, Project, Event, whatever I need) via email so when I get back to the main machine a simple refresh brings it all back online. Thats a tall order and certainly not easy. At the same time, I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

I have used a laptop as part of my editing toolset ever since the first AJA io came out. AJA already has a Thunderbolt capable device, therefore, a Thunderbolt iPad with "for real" 709 video out, and Thunderbolt storage? Hell yeah.


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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:11:05 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "This means no matter how the timeline is sorted vertically that it will play as intended without the 'top layer' being necessarily on top, however the timeline is sorted visually. Time (I think) would be the only constant of the visual timeline (or I guess it doesn't have to be with the timeline index). Why else would there be a transfer mode that layers clips with alpha channel information "on top" when the alpha clip is actually underneath the clip you are trying to composite over? Down is now up. It might also explain why horizontal clip relationships are now user denied instead of track defined."

This sounds completely unusable to me. Maybe something like this makes sense in a nodal compositing system but I don't see any value in a time-based system. What would the benefit be? How would editors be able to share projects and have any idea what they're looking at?

[Jeremy Garchow] "All of that is pretty damn complex, and also does not resemble any Apple app that I am aware of. It also attempts to explain a trackless timeline, and the parent/child relationship in the new XML. If all of this is what is ultimately intended by Apple there is probably really good reason that Apple did not unleash this level of complexity at once."

I agree that it's complex. I think that's one of the main reasons it's difficult to use. But I'm not so sure there's a grand yet-to-be-revealed plan. A simpler explanation is that it's just bad design. Remember, Apple doesn't always hit home runs (Ping, MobileMe, hockey-puck shaped mouse, etc.) Keep in mind the team that brought us this UI is now apparently having heated debates on whether persistent in/out points are a good idea.

I mean seriously -- they're debating the value of persistent in/out points in a professional NLE... and we're supposed to believe they've got a well-thought out plan for this thing? Seems like quite a stretch to me. I'd love to be proven wrong.

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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:44:29 am

[David Lawrence] "This sounds completely unusable to me."

Ok, maybe it was one step too far. Let's let time be a constant on the timeline and maybe the index can be sorted out of chronological order (to be able to select clips of all of the same parameter easily, for one example).

You don't see any use for a role based vertically sortable timeline? Meaning for any given primary storyline clips and everything connected to it, if you want your audio to always stack as dialogue, then effects, then music? I can think of some really practical reasons, especially when there's no tracks.

Also, if you sort layers vertically for organization that don't necessarily correspond to composite order, the clues are in the timeline. Compound clips, secondary storylines and primary storyline already have visual indicators of what they are. I would think anyone who understood FCPX could look at the timeline and get it.

[David Lawrence] "How would editors be able to share projects and have any idea what they're looking at?"

You could sort it back to "normal". It's a sort, non destructive.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 3:32:26 pm

"You don't see any use for a role based vertically sortable timeline? Meaning for any given primary storyline clips and everything connected to it, if you want your audio to always stack as dialogue, then effects, then music? I can think of some really practical reasons, especially when there's no tracks."

Or you could just actually have tracks, which would negate the need for any of this. It's the perfect FCPX concept -let's create an editing system so so screwed up that only we have the metadata to fix. Once again FCPX can show it's brilliance by fixing a problem that no one else has.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:12:08 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Once again FCPX can show it's brilliance by fixing a problem that no one else has."

I don't think tracks are problem. I don't think Apple sees tracks as a problem. I do think they see a different way to do things that eventually will be better. Yes, better.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:49:26 pm

"I don't think tracks are problem. I don't think Apple sees tracks as a problem. "

Apple did see tracks as a problem, and that's why they got rid of them. And now they have to come up with all sorts of work arounds to replace the functionality they got rid of.

I guess what you meant was that Apple doesn't see the lack of tracks as a problem. Obviously not. And Adobe is getting a lot richer on that lack of vision.

One year ago PPro had zero presence in the CWE (complex workflow environment), at least in NY and LA. None, nada, zilch. I never heard of a single facility that was even considering using it as the mainstay of their editing work. Now CS5.5 is ALL I'm hearing about. Apple kills color, kills FCP7 and releases FCPX. Adobe buys Iridas and Automatic Duck, lets everyone know they are incorporating as much FCP workflow as possible into their next release, and are basically taking over the Non-Avid side of the business. I've never seen anything like this, where a product leader just absolutely abdicates it's position and hands it's entire business over to a rival. Amazing.

So yeah, sure, Apple is the company I'm definitely going to follow.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:15:03 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Apple did see tracks as a problem, and that's why they got rid of them. And now they have to come up with all sorts of work arounds to replace the functionality they got rid of."

Perception is everything I guess. I just don't see it this way. I think I have explained why I think the tracks have gone away. These are not work arounds, but choices.

[Herb Sevush] "I've never seen anything like this, where a product leader just absolutely abdicates it's position and hands it's entire business over to a rival. Amazing."

Again, looking at the positive, maybe they know something that we don't. They certainly know their plan while we don't.

It's interesting times and we have choices. I'm all right with all of that.

[Herb Sevush] "So yeah, sure, Apple is the company I'm definitely going to follow."

So you are one of the ones simply dumping Apple as a platform too?


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:30:31 pm

"So you are one of the ones simply dumping Apple as a platform too?"

I think Apple is a brilliant consumer hardware company. Application software and business hardware - not as impressed.

My original plan was to upgrade my Mac Pro this year. After this past June's debacle I delayed that purchase. I am currently investigating every possible NLE option - Mac, PC, Linux - whatever. I will let my software choice determine my hardware platform. If FCPX is the best multi-cam editor out there next March, then I guess I'll be getting a new MacPro. By all accounts PPro runs much faster on a properly configured PC - if that's the way to go, then it will be a PC. I have no preference about hardware platforms - they both work fine, it's the software that interests me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:53:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]I don't think tracks are problem. I don't think Apple sees tracks as a problem. I do think they see a different way to do things that eventually will be better. Yes, better.

How exactly? How will it be better? How will it be faster?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 7:10:02 pm

[Gary Huff] "How exactly? How will it be better? How will it be faster?"

I wrote about it last night in this thread. It boils down to data processing, as no matter what, our video is data. Imagine being able to sort the timeline as you want and being able to add/remove effects as you want, export only what you want (by Role, or whatever), arrange Roles in the order you want to export to other programs. All within a click of a button and no drag and drop. I should also mention the speed increase in editing.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/16517

Jeremy


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 7:58:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]Imagine being able to sort the timeline as you want and being able to add/remove effects as you want, export only what you want (by Role, or whatever), arrange Roles in the order you want to export to other programs.

I already do this.

I should also mention the speed increase in editing.

I've edited in FCPX. It's different, not necessarily faster overall. But, then again, that's simply your opinion and there's really no way to verify that one way or another.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:03:37 pm

[Gary Huff] "I already do this."

In what program?

[Gary Huff] " But, then again, that's simply your opinion and there's really no way to verify that one way or another."

And it's not there yet. Roles are just the beginning the jumping off point, of how a database driven design will help manage data.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:25:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]In what program?

Adobe Premiere CS5.5 primarily.

Imagine being able to sort the timeline as you want

I never really need to "sort" a timeline in the way FCPX does it, but under Premiere/FCP7, I'm currently editing a mini-doc (in FCP7) and I have different segments of the interviews as nested sequences. I've been playing with the order and the clips that bridge them with ease. There's not been another way I've wanted to sort the timeline outside of what I can already do.

being able to add/remove effects as you want,

Do this all the time. Click on a clip in Premiere's timeline, select the "Effects" tab, I can delete it, adjust it, copy it or even turn it off temporarily if I need to speed up the response time of the NLE and it's a CPU-heavy effect. I find Premiere is easier in this regard than FCP7, though about the same with FCPX (except for the copying aspect which is much quicker in Premiere as you can copy only selected effects).

export only what you want (by Role, or whatever)

I haven't played around with Roles in FCPX yet, but I've constantly had to export either a screenshot of a frame, isolated audio, video segments, ect. Just select the range, go to export and adjust for the right format that I want. I fail to see how it could be substantially faster than what I already do. Only difference is that I do have to be organized if I want to, say, export only video or only motion graphics or whatnot, but I'm organized and so I can just turn off and on tracks to get what I need. I wouldn't be surprised if assigning the Roles in the first place evens out the time spent with assigning by tracks.

arrange Roles in the order you want to export to other programs.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Off the top of my head it doesn't sound like something I've needed a solution for.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:34:14 pm

Cool. Then good luck to you on Adobe.

[Gary Huff] "I never really need to "sort" a timeline in the way FCPX does it,"

Let me be clear, FCPX does not do this yet. I imagining some day it will and I will like it.

[Gary Huff] "There's not been another way I've wanted to sort the timeline outside of what I can already do."

Yes, but you have tracks, FCPX does not. I know what your response to this is going to be, and that's OK.

[Gary Huff] "Click on a clip in Premiere's timeline, select the "Effects" tab, I can delete it, adjust it, copy it or even turn it off temporarily if I need to speed up the response time of the NLE and it's a CPU-heavy effect."

If you have 25 clips of "Gary" spread out all over the timeline, can you, with a click or two, find those clips of "Gary" and turn off or remove or add an effect(s)? This is how I envision the Index eventually being able to work. I am not talking about one clip at a time, that's easy in any program. In FCPX, you can even turn off effects by copying and pasting a turned off/empty effect. This is not easy or very convenient. FCP Legacy allows you to remove all the effects from a clip. It does not allow you to remove only one effect from a stack of effects.

[Gary Huff] "I haven't played around with Roles in FCPX yet, "

Oh. Got ya. Then I will leave you to check it out before I comment any further. If you don't check it out, I understand. Good luck with CS 5.5.

Jeremy


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:44:29 pm

Wait...so all those benefits you touted are where you see FCPX going and not anything you're able to actually do yet?

Let me be clear, FCPX does not do this yet. I imagining some day it will and I will like it.

Yeah, and the NLE I can imagine that we might have one day is awesome too.

If you have 25 clips of "Gary" spread out all over the timeline, can you, with a click or two, find those clips of "Gary" and turn off or remove or add an effect(s)?

At first glance, that sounds impressive. But then:

This is how I envision the Index eventually being able to work.

Ah, yet another instance of a feature you're touting in FCPX that doesn't actually exist yet?

Wow.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:52:00 pm

[Gary Huff] "Wait...so all those benefits you touted are where you see FCPX going and not anything you're able to actually do yet?"

Did you read the posts?

[Gary Huff] "Ah, yet another instance of a feature you're touting in FCPX that doesn't actually exist yet?"

Relax, eh? I think I was very forthcoming in saying this is what I see being capable in FCPX very soon as evidenced by what is in the program today and right now, and possible explanations of the trackless timeline. I did not tout everything as being available today, although one click export of roles/tracks is available today, albeit with limitations. Sorting the timeline is not available, you have to do it by hand for now. The Effects Index is not available, but you could see there's room for it. Where would that be in CS5.5? It certainly isn't built in and it's already on v5.5. :P

I also mentioned a 15" iPad with Thunderbolt. That's not here either.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:59:11 pm

You're right, you were touting these "future" abilities of FCPX that currently don't exist. However, I can do that now.

Why should I wait? Why should I even care?

I also mentioned a 15" iPad with Thunderbolt. That's not here either.

And may never be. Not everything is a given.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:03:41 pm

[Gary Huff] "However, I can do that now."

Select and remove effects from certain clips all at once? You just said you couldn't. I have also been playing with CS5 and I don't see that functionality.

[Gary Huff] " Why should I even care?"

Good question. There is an unsubscribe button on this thread if you don't care?

[Gary Huff] "And may never be. Not everything is a given."

WHAT??? Crap.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:17:14 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]Select and remove effects from certain clips all at once? You just said you couldn't. I have also been playing with CS5 and I don't see that functionality.

You're right. It's not there in CS5 or CS5.5. Might be in CS6. Just as it might be in FCPX2.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:16:54 pm

"The Effects Index is not available, but you could see there's room for it. Where would that be in CS5.5?"

It doesn't exist in PPro 5.5 but it might exist in ver 6 which is coming this spring.

The problem with dealing in future possibility's is that anyone can play that game; the buy in is zero and the skies the limit. I can foresee an incredible future for Lightworks, my personal dark horse favorite in the NLE sweepstakes - trackless and tracked switchable, unlimited multi-cam, auditions - whatever you can dream of, I can dream as well, only it's free.

But in the mundane world of the now you keep comparing FCPX to the present, which has already past. FCPX's competition is not Adobe & Avid version 5.5, it's version 6 of both FCPX will have to match come 2012.

As for roles, at the moment it seems a cumbersome way to try to regain the functionality that tracks currently have. In a tracked program you don't have to open a menu and assign a role to a clip, all you have to do is edit it into a timeline and the role already exists. Which sounds quicker and more intuitive to you?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:19:18 pm

[Herb Sevush]I can foresee an incredible future for Lightworks, my personal dark horse favorite in the NLE sweepstakes - trackless and tracked switchable, unlimited multi-cam, auditions - whatever you can dream of, I can dream as well, only it's free.

With both Apple and Microsoft lining up to guzzle from the tablet trough, it might be that the future of workstation video editing is in the hands of Lightworks on Linux.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:30:25 pm

"With both Apple and Microsoft lining up to guzzle from the tablet trough, it might be that the future of workstation video editing is in the hands of Lightworks on Linux."

I cannot tell you how happy that would make me. Years ago, when discreet *edit was EOL'd many of the users on the COW forum got together to discuss a way that we, as a group, could buy the code from Autodesk and run it as a subscription co-operative. We had our own web site, got some of the *edit software designers in on it and held some preliminary talks with Autodesk, and then of course they told us to take a hike.

I have been EOL'd too many times, and BOGU'd by too many software vendors not to dream of a Wikipedia of NLE's. Currently Lightworks is the only contender. I would trade in a lot of features for the ability to work without fear of a vendor holding me hostage yet again.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:28:01 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It doesn't exist in PPro 5.5 but it might exist in ver 6 which is coming this spring. "

But FCPX already has an index, right now. Today. Ya see? PPro does not. FCPX does. PPro does not. FCPX does.

[Herb Sevush] "I can foresee an incredible future for Lightworks"

Have you used it? Is there evidence in the program of those features? The screen grabs I see are a mess of floating windows. Reminds of M100, which in my opinion was a pretty inefficient interface. i am interested in Lightworks though.

[Herb Sevush] "Which sounds quicker and more intuitive to you?"

OK, let's do it. You can add roles en masse in the browser, think of it as preassigning your video and audio assignments before you even edit. Then when editing, I don't have to stop and think and click which Video and Audio tracks of the incoming clip are mapped to which tracks in the timeline. If roles are preassigned in FCPX, I simply select the in and out, and hit the appropriate one key keyboard shortcut to add the clip at either the skimmer or playhead, end of timeline, whichever I have setup/desire. I am going to go with FCPX on this one. Are you shocked at that conclusion? You still haven't used FCPX, right?

This process of patching the a/v in PPro is convoluted by the way, why do I have to patch it "twice"? Takes longer than it does in FCP7.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:34:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]You can add roles en masse in the browser, think of it as preassigning your video and audio assignments before you even edit.

It's easy to say this, but probably won't be as easy to do. What do you mean by "en masse"? Let's say I import a bunch of clips (audio and video) into FCPX. It will "sort" them in the most basic way possible and then I have to still select groupings of clips to assign them. I.E. I may have imported video b-roll, video interviews, music, audio clips, ect. There is no "en masse" way to assign anything to this because FCPX has no way of knowing itself what each clip is until I assign it personally. So, before I can edit a single frame of footage, I have to click on or otherwise select a grouping of clips, and assign them that role.

Then when editing, I don't have to stop and think and click which Video and Audio tracks of the incoming clip are mapped to which tracks in the timeline.

But you haven't really saved any time because you had to spend it all at the beginning prepping footage...and again every time you have to import some new asset.

Are you shocked at that conclusion? You still haven't used FCPX, right?

And neither have you...at least not the FCPX you're talking about.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:47:06 pm

[Gary Huff] "So, before I can edit a single frame of footage, I have to click on or otherwise select a grouping of clips, and assign them that role."

You start simply. Dialogue, music, SFX, broll, whatever. When I mean en masse, meaning I can select as many clips as I want, and assign a role, before they hit the timeline. Some roles are assigned. FCPX knows what video is, it knows what music is, it knows what titles are. So some of the work is done for you generically, but you might need to customize it.

If you need to change them later, you can do that too in no less that three places.

If you add up the time it takes to assign a role (which can be done with a keyboard shortcut) and the time it takes to arrange your timeline in tracks over the course of the edit, my money is on roles.

[Gary Huff] "But you haven't really saved any time because you had to spend it all at the beginning prepping footage...and again every time you have to import some new asset."

I guess oyu don't understand how fast this pricess can be.

[Gary Huff] "And neither have you...at least not the FCPX you're talking about."

But I have used Roles, which is a feature that is in FCPX today. I can see further use for them that won't be that hard to implement as the foundation is already built. I think I can say this without sounding like a moron. Sure an Index might come in CS6, but that is more of a stretch as it's not in there today. The FCPX Index was in v10.0.0. As I mentioned earlier today, i have no idea what Apple is thinking, I can only go on the evidence of what is in the program today.

Also, if FCPX never turns out to be anything like what I think it might be, then at least I have choices, and I won't be mad at myself for trying something completely new.

Jeremy


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30:00 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]If you add up the time it takes to assign a role (which can be done with a keyboard shortcut) and the time it takes to arrange your timeline in tracks over the course of the edit, my money is on roles.

I'm not just trying to be contrary, but nothing you have said conceptualize in my head how of this would ultimately be any faster, at least not in a meaningful way. And I don't feel that I'm alone in this.

I guess you don't understand how fast this process can be.

Well, you are either not explaining it well enough, I simply need to use the program, or you are so intent on seeing FCPX become the standard that you are convinced already without the slightest shred of evidence. To be honest, all three of these have equal weight at this point in time.

Sure an Index might come in CS6, but that is more of a stretch as it's not in there today. The FCPX Index was in v10.0.0.

Apple has a track record that tells me that nothing is a given with what will happen with future revisions of FCPX all the way up to FCPX2 (if that comes out). Right now, I'd say the two have equal weight as well. We have no idea as to the extent that CS6 will be like, but I would argue that we have a far better idea of that then we do of FCPX.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:55:27 pm

[Gary Huff] "Well, you are either not explaining it well enough, I simply need to use the program, or you are so intent on seeing FCPX become the standard that you are convinced already without the slightest shred of evidence."

I would like to use it. Yes. This is an FCPX forum right? As far as evidence, I mentioned an example of the fast and meaningful sorting in my article.



[Gary Huff] "Apple has a track record that tells me that nothing is a given with what will happen with future revisions of FCPX all the way up to FCPX2 (if that comes out"

Hmm. In my view, Apple's record with X updates is spot on. They provided bug fixes and features in just 3 months and announced more features for the near future. That never happened with Studio. Roles weren't announced, but there they were. Only Apple dignitaries know what unannounced features lay ahead.

[Gary Huff] "Right now, I'd say the two have equal weight as well. We have no idea as to the extent that CS6 will be like, but I would argue that we have a far better idea of that then we do of FCPX."

Equal weight, fair enough I guess. What do we know about CS6 exactly?


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:57:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]Equal weight, fair enough I guess. What do we know about CS6 exactly?

It will be awesome.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:58:39 pm

"What do we know about CS6 exactly?"

That it will be backwards compatible with CS5.

I had to jump in, the setup was too good.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:03:45 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I had to jump in, the setup was too good."

Yep, you're right about that. Another good one.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:50:42 pm

"But FCPX already has an index, right now. Today."

I thought you said the effects index was something you could foresee but didn't exist.

"Have you used it? Is there evidence in the program of those features?"


Like I said, dreams are in the eye of the beholder. Have you used your audio sorting yet?

"You can add roles en masse in the browser"

I work a lot on cooking shows. I never know, until I lay it in the timeline whether a piece of audio is dialogue or effects. I then often break up and change parts of the tracks as I refine the edit. How am i going to tag that in the browser.

And how do I look at your trackless timeline (because FCPX has tracks, they are just visually meaningless and inconsistent) and automatically know which track is which:

Say I have 2 audio elements, neither in sync to the video - one is a vo, the other is frying sounds. Later I decide I want to move the vo - with tracks I know, without clicking on anything, exactly which clip is which. How would I know which is which in FCPX - how would roles help me here without my having to click on something?

"You still haven't used FCPX, right?"

Still haven't hit myself in the face with a hammer, but I can guess it's gonna hurt.

"This process of patching the a/v in PPro is convoluted by the way, why do I have to patch it "twice"? Takes longer than it does in FC"

There are many things I don't like so far about PPro which is why I'm still cutting on FCP7. 2012 awaits.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:47:49 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I thought you said the effects index was something you could foresee but didn't exist."

Yep, it's a hope at this point, but the infrastructure is there, so it's not a huge leap of faith.

[Herb Sevush] "Have you used your audio sorting yet?"

When putting the timeline to view clips as Roles, you have to do it manually. So there's a version if it already in place, more control is needed for sure. Again, based on what's in the program at this time, not a total pipe dream.

[Herb Sevush] "How would I know which is which in FCPX - how would roles help me here without my having to click on something?"

VO would be labeled VO (as you can view roles on clips in the timeline today) and frying sounds would be labeled something meaningful to you. This is without clicking. You then grab what you need.

[Herb Sevush] "Still haven't hit myself in the face with a hammer, but I can guess it's gonna hurt."

Nice one.

[Herb Sevush] "2012 awaits."

Indeed.


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 10:55:20 pm

VO would be labeled VO (as you can view roles on clips in the timeline today) and frying sounds would be labeled something meaningful to you. This is without clicking. You then grab what you need.

Lets see if I get all of it though -

Because I don't know what the audio is to be defined as till I actually make the edit, does this do away with the "mass browser approach" ?

I would have to label the clips after I laid them in the timeline?

Then if I wanted to change something from dialogue to EFX I would have to re-define it's role ?

If I'm correct here, I still don't see anything but a time drain. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:02:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Because I don't know what the audio is to be defined as till I actually make the edit, does this do away with the "mass browser approach" ? "

You start simply and adjust.

You wouldn't know VO is VO? As I mentioned, you can edit the role at anytime in three places, very easily. No moving to another track, or making new tracks and moving, or perhaps rearranging your whole audio track array to make room forba 2 second clip.

[Herb Sevush] "Then if I wanted to change something from dialogue to EFX I would have to re-define it's role ?"

Yep. As for time drain, see above.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:13:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]You wouldn't know VO is VO? As I mentioned, you can edit the role at anytime in three places, very easily. No moving to another track, or making new tracks and moving, or perhaps rearranging your whole audio track array to make room for a 2 second clip.

Jeremy, this is part of the reason I don't believe you really know how much "faster" FCPX is in this regard. Moving audio to an entirely new track is just as fast (if not slightly faster) than re-assigning a role.

Do you know how to create a new audio track? Click and hold on the clip you want to move to the new track, pull down to below the last track, and release. 1-2 seconds max. How much faster do you think this can get?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:39:58 pm

[Gary Huff] "Jeremy, this is part of the reason I don't believe you really know how much "faster" FCPX is in this regard. Moving audio to an entirely new track is just as fast (if not slightly faster) than re-assigning a role.

Do you know how to create a new audio track? Click and hold on the clip you want to move to the new track, pull down to below the last track, and release. 1-2 seconds max. How much faster do you think this can get?"


You are assuming there is room for this. What if the tracks above and below are not effects tracks or aren't empty? Then you have an effect dangling that screws up your whole export, right? I guess I am assuming greater than a simple stereo export.

You can not believe me, that's fine. I am not saying all this because I am trying to trick you, or convince you, or tell you what's best for you. I am simply reporting my findings after having using both devices. I guess you can only take me at my word, on a forum it's really all I have. In FCPX the audio stack order simply doesn't matter, you can put it anywhere. I find this method, in the whole of the edit, much faster from input, organization, edit, to output. I spend less time managing, more time with the edit and eventually I hope more power will come with more control.

When going back to FCP7 from FCPX, everything is way more slow, more mechanical, and more importantly, less creative. That is important to me, maybe it isn't to other people.

Sorry if I'm not explaining it well enough, perhaps I should never go in to sales.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 12:03:32 am

[Jeremy Garchow]When going back to FCP7 from FCPX, everything is way more slow, more mechanical, and more importantly, less creative. That is important to me, maybe it isn't to other people.


I don't disagree with you on this though. FCP7 is not a modern NLE. I'm primarily a Premier editor (though I have no problems rooting around in FCP7) and that's what I'm comparing FCPX to. And I've gone back and forth with each and I'm so much faster in Premiere CS5.5.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 1:15:31 am

[Gary Huff] "And I've gone back and forth with each and I'm so much faster in Premiere CS5.5."

This does not surprise me at all. FCPX is different.

Are you faster in Premiere than Smoke?


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 2:22:25 am

[Jeremy Garchow]Are you faster in Premiere than Smoke?

I don't use Smoke. But going to After Effects isn't difficult. Even when I was first one FCP7 it wasn't that much of a difference. But FCPX irritates me every time I'm in it. For me, it's one step forward and two steps back.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 2:37:39 am

[Gary Huff] "Even when I was first one FCP7 it wasn't that much of a difference."

Yes, the key framing is similar across all 3 apps, as well as the tabbed design, that's about it across all three of them together. I'd be curious to see how you felt with something that's completely different. My guess is you aren't as fast at first.

[Gary Huff] "For me, it's one step forward and two steps back."

I have to ask, man and I seriously mean this with all due respect. Why do you waste your time around here if there's seeming nothing for you?


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 1:28:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]I have to ask, man and I seriously mean this with all due respect. Why do you waste your time around here if there's seeming nothing for you?

This really comes across as, "If you don't like it, then why don't you just shut up about it?"

Just because it's broken now doesn't mean it always be. Plus, it has prompted some interesting discussion about where the industry is going. And Apple may not have a place in that future. It's not an automatic given that they will.

Apple Inc. is just a company and FCPX is just a piece of software. Don't take it so personally.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 2:31:52 pm

Gary-

I will have a longer response *for you later, but that is certainly not what I meant.

My apologies.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 4:41:33 pm

[Gary Huff] "This really comes across as, "If you don't like it, then why don't you just shut up about it?""

This is not what I meant, I'm sorry.

[Gary Huff] "Just because it's broken now doesn't mean it always be."

It's broken? Sure there are features that aren't there, but is it really broken? I think it does what it says it's going to do and nothing more.

[Gary Huff] "And Apple may not have a place in that future. It's not an automatic given that they will."

Of course not. I for one, don't see the actual software as a failure, but rather a stepping stone. There's a lot more climbing to do before getting to the base of the mountain.

The stunts pulled before and during release, are certainly a fail.

[Gary Huff] "Apple Inc. is just a company and FCPX is just a piece of software. Don't take it so personally."

Absolutely, but take what personally? I take what I do and the tools I use seriously, but not seriously enough to talk shit to others. Is it OK for me to look at what's there instead of what isn't, just as it's OK for you to look at what's not there instead of what is? I don't care for Avid MC5. I don't go hanging around the Avid forums stirring up noise. I am not talking directly about you, I am just making an observation about the types of side bars that have been happening for the past three months (!), in the midst of the "interesting discussions" you mention.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:32:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]I don't care for Avid MC5. I don't go hanging around the Avid forums stirring up noise. I am not talking directly about you, I am just making an observation about the types of side bars that have been happening for the past three months (!), in the midst of the "interesting discussions" you mention.

If you dropped into the AVID forums to stir up noise, you'd be trolling. But, Jeremy, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but the thread topic is titled: Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate. If you'd prefer to hang out with people who just want to talk about the program, and help out those who are having issues working with it, then may I suggest you spend more of your time here? There's where you should be if you don't like the discussions taking place.

Otherwise, myself and others like me will continue to use this place to hash out what we think about FCPX and even the industry as a whole.

Thanks.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:36:51 pm

[Gary Huff] "There's where you should be if you don't like the discussions taking place."

Oh, I like this. I don't like the personal insults.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:40:15 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]Oh, I like this. I don't like the personal insults.

Is this sarcasm?


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:37:22 pm

"You wouldn't know VO is VO?"

I have 2 chefs talking about the proper cooking temperature for scrambled eggs as they crack the egss and then start frying them in a pan. In my first pass it's sync dialogue. In my next pass I use the sync of them talking as VO behind the sound of the eggs frying in the pan. Now it's VO and the actual frying sound, which had been sync at one point, is now EFX as I use it over a later shot of the eggs frying. A clip started as sync dialogue, then became part vo, part EFX. How often do I do this? All the time, maybe 30 - 40% of the show ends up like this depending on how much I have to compress time. The problem with roles is I never know which part will remain sync dialogue and which will end up as VO plus EFX. Which is easier, constantly changing roles after I move the clips, or just moving the clips?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 1:13:05 am

[Herb Sevush] "The problem with roles is I never know which part will remain sync dialogue and which will end up as VO plus EFX. "

Well, I can't tell you what's best for you. I think we have different definitions of VO. That's cool. I guess I dont see at as constantly changing. FCPX does not take away the duty of the edit. I guess I can't explain well enough for people who haven't tried it to understand. Sorry. For me, as the edit gets more complicated, it's easier and faster. It's my opinion, obviously.

[Herb Sevush] "Which is easier, constantly changing roles after I move the clips, or just moving the clips?"

You tell me, you've tried it, right?


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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:32:31 am

"You tell me, you've tried it, right?"

Still waiting for multi-cam, which should be a great opportunity for FCPX to flex it's metadata muscle. Except for that single viewer thingy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 4:44:35 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I guess I can't explain well enough for people who haven't tried it to understand. "

You're doing a fine job explaining, and I think we get it. The problem is roles are a work-in-progress, so whether or not they wind up being more efficient in scenarios like Herb's depends on features we don't even know will be implemented. What we do know is that tracks have worked well as a common language for representing multiple channels of related, time-based information for decades. So the burden is on Apple to demonstrate that their new paradigm is actually better.

Let me ask you this - assuming you're correct and a trackless, metadata driven, timeline paradigm is actually a better UI for multi-channel, time-based object manipulation, how long do you think it will take for the audio industry to adopt it as a standard for DAWs? Do you expect the next release of Logic X will be trackless?

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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 1:43:11 pm

[David Lawrence] "how long do you think it will take for the audio industry to adopt it as a standard for DAWs? Do you expect the next release of Logic X will be trackless?"

Let me clarify that I don't personally use DAWs professionally, but I do send our audio for post frequently. So this will be some conjecture on my part.

Great question. Trackless? Sure. Why not? Assuming that a trackless environment would be more efficient, all that matters is that the files get exported to the proper channels, right? If tracks don't make sense to an audio mix, then so be it. If assigning outputs to clips via metadata to "channel 1" is easier, then yes, go for it. But I don't think a magnetic timeline would make sense when working on the audio of a video based project as there's no reason for the timeline to fluctuate that much during a locked edit.

I think video editing and audio post are two totally different processes and therefore might require different interfaces, but if the software is smart enough, I don't see why tracks are totally necessary. Really, I'd leave that to the audio folks.

Here's a silly and probably stupid analogy: V8 engines have been working for decades, and still work swimmingly. Do you think that's the best and most efficient way to move forward? FCPX still needs work, obviously, but under the surface I really appreciate what is trying to be done, and that is catalog and manage a massive amount of data, have it follow you through the post process, and then use it to your advantage on output. There is not one NLE that I know of on the market today that is attempting this inside the editor. People claim Adobe supports metadata, and yes there is a ton of shit in there, but like FCP Legacy, it's an after thought, not really useful and stuck over in another tab out of sight. What that says to me is that its not important to Adobe. FCPX still has some work to go on the camera based data, but there's already some cool things that are in place today, such as being able to name your clips with the UserClipName from p2 data by clicking a button.

I think Roles are very smart and free me from track limitations. I can "see" where it might be some day, and I like what I see. I have had this notion of our video data stored in a "pool" rather than hallways and shelves for a long time, ever since I have been giving feedback to a little known app called P2 Flow. P2 Flow, it should be no surprise, is a p2 metadata creator/editor. Combined with MXF4mac it elevated our p2 workflow immensely and was eons faster than Log and Transfer could ever be by it's very design. This is where I'm coming from with a metadata based workflow in FCPX. It is attempting these concepts by it's very design. I welcome it, and makes complete sense to me. I just hope Apple will listen and implement suggestions. Again, i have no idea what Apple is ultimately going to do. I can only go off the information I have and what I can formulate from what is already in FCPX.

So far, Apple has done exactly what they said they are going to do. They released what they said they were going to release, they listened to suggestions and made a few fixes. They have been saying publicly that since theres no more physical media, they we be able to make major updates more quickly. They've only had one opportunity so far to prove that, but they did it. Call me naive, but since they've backed up what they said, I can only believe them. So maybe when they say they are still interested in the Pro market, I should tend to believe it? Eventually (and I'm talking years) all of our FCP7 projects will be dead, just as all of our m100 projects are buried from the 90s and early millennium. Fcp 3 was the right choice at the time, and I'm glad I did it. FCPX certainly can't be the right choice for me right now, but I like the foundation. As of now, after trying other programs, nothing else really has my attention. I am doing the opposite of most and that is playing with X and watching Adobe (and Lightworks).

Yikes, sorry for the diatribe.


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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 5:52:13 am

Great post, Jeremy. I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I think I finally understand why you and I have such a different POV on the value of tracks:

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't think a magnetic timeline would make sense when working on the audio of a video based project as there's no reason for the timeline to fluctuate that much during a locked edit.

I think video editing and audio post are two totally different processes and therefore might require different interfaces, but if the software is smart enough, I don't see why tracks are totally necessary. Really, I'd leave that to the audio folks. "


That's our key difference, right there. I think of video editing and audio post as one and the same.

Even though my primary work involves video post-production services, I have a background in music and sound design and sound is the foundation for everything I post, whether a music video or documentary style interview. In effect, I use the NLE as both an NLE and a DAW in a fluid, back and forth process to create rhythm, pacing and beats with both picture and sound interchangeably. For me, it's all the same during the editorial phase.

Now I know your thoughts on FCP7's audio capabilities ;) and for the most part I agree. But here's an example --

On the project I just finished, I posted a four and a half minute segment cut from a ~1 hour interview with a single subject. The speaker is interesting and engaging, but his speaking style is full of pauses and tangential thoughts. His final ~4 minute actuality has close to 300 edits. I craft the pauses, add or pull breaths and even construct entirely new sentences to make him succinct and editorially on point. It sounds perfect. You accept it as his actual speech without question. This is pretty typical of the work I do.

I usually go thru this audio workflow before I even begin to think about picture. My efficiently is high because I checkerboard and use FCP7s timeline tools with surgical precision. Often, the difference of a single frame will make or break the transparency of a constructed acutality. If I need even more precision, I use volume curves to get sub-frame accuracy, or two frame audio dissolves with start, center, or end positioning. This gets me about 80-90% done with audio. I don't need the real-time effects at this point. After locking picture, I round trip to STP to do any final tweaks, sweetening and mix. Everything is organized because I've been organizing track layout as I go. It's fast and efficient because I've already done most of the work in FCP.

This is why I need tracks -- they are my scaffolding. I build on top of them and need them to be stable as I edit. Working on the trackless magnetic timeline (especially with audio) with everything rippling and moving up and down by itself whether I want it to or not, it feels like trying to build a house on quicksand!

For me, it's a very musical process, like scoring a symphony. That's why when I look at something like Shawn Federline's timeline, I don't see clutter, I see a musical score built on a common language that can easily be read, understood and shared across a range of applications and disciplines. And with audio especially, track arrangements, waveforms and clip patterns often make it possible to identify audio type instantly, just by looking. This at-a-glance feedback is a huge timesaver when sharing projects.

On the other hand, if I wasn't thinking in terms of audio, I can easily imagine why tracks might not seem so essential and even appear as clutter. As long as playback is correct and you can output what you need, what difference would the vertical positioning make? It wouldn't. Makes sense.

I think I finally get where you're coming from on tracks. Thank you! I hope this gives you a better understanding of my skepticism and problems with the trackless, ripple-only timeline.

[Jeremy Garchow] "FCPX still needs work, obviously, but under the surface I really appreciate what is trying to be done, and that is catalog and manage a massive amount of data, have it follow you through the post process, and then use it to your advantage on output. There is not one NLE that I know of on the market today that is attempting this inside the editor."

On this point we're in complete agreement. The database driven, metadata engine under the hood is impressive and filled with potential. It's why I'm investigating FCPX as a DAM even if I don't ultimately use it to cut.

That's the most frustrating thing about this whole debacle. All that power under the hood and no clear way for editors who work like me to take advantage of it. I hope Apple will address our needs in future updates but I'm not counting on it. Time will tell.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting conversation!

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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 5:58:47 am

[David Lawrence]On the project I just finished, I posted a four and a half minute segment cut from a ~1 hour interview with a single subject. The speaker is interesting and engaging, but his speaking style is full of pauses and tangential thoughts. His final ~4 minute actuality has close to 300 edits. I craft the pauses, add or pull breaths and even construct entirely new sentences to make him succinct and editorially on point. It sounds perfect. You accept it as his actual speech without question. This is pretty typical of the work I do.

I do this a lot too, even on videos that, to someone ignorant of what was actually shot, seem simple enough. And this is also why FCPX is slower for me than using track-based NLEs.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 4:48:23 pm

[David Lawrence] "Great post, Jeremy. I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I think I finally understand why you and I have such a different POV on the value of tracks:"


Thank you David, for listening to my unpopular craziness.

[David Lawrence] "This is why I need tracks -- they are my scaffolding. I build on top of them and need them to be stable as I edit. Working on the trackless magnetic timeline (especially with audio) with everything rippling and moving up and down by itself whether I want it to or not, it feels like trying to build a house on quicksand!"

I totally understand all of this. I work mainly in dialogue based stories as well. Often times clients want to edit the dialogue so that the interviewee says what they want them to say, not what they said on tapeless. Forgive my less eloquent description as your description is much more poetic, but we constantly frankenstein clips together, add breath and pause where they aren't, basically, editing.

Let me ask you this. Do you think FCPX will ever get tracks? Do you think they will work with the trim tool? By adding tracks, don't you think we will lose some of the editing efficiency?

Also, do you think that this style of editing simply is impossible in FCPXs timeline? I'm just curious, I am not attacking (and I'm sorry I have to say that). I really want to try and understand why this can't be done in FCPX. Also, let's make the huge assumption that Roles to OMF created the tracks and order that you need in a DAW. Maybe a screen grab of a typical timeline if you can? Help me understand what I seem to be really missing.

[David Lawrence] "I round trip to STP to do any final tweaks, sweetening and mix. Everything is organized because I've been organizing track layout as I go. It's fast and efficient because I've already done most of the work in FCP. "

With FCPX's audio filters, do you think you will need STP anymore? Again, just an honest question.

[David Lawrence] "This at-a-glance feedback is a huge timesaver when sharing projects."

I hear that, loud and clear. We have three people that touch some aspect of almost every project in editorial over here, then we send it out to audio, so at most it's 5 people that could work on any given project. There is no question that Apple is asking a lot, as we all know. The timeline is a different language, and I think it might be more visual than what people give it credit for. In my earlier post about "up being down" and a scenario of being able to sort the timeline for one's specific needs, and of course the ability to sort back, I do think that some of the editing devices that people are really confused by (the primary/secondary storylines/clip connections/compound clips) are visual cues. Perhaps after more practice, that language will become more apparent. For instance, I just whipped this extremely simple example together. Can you not tell what's going on here? I even threw in an easter egg:



I would love to be able to color code Roles, then it would be even easier.

[David Lawrence] "I hope this gives you a better understanding of my skepticism and problems with the trackless, ripple-only timeline."

Absolutely. Although, I don't see the timeline as ripple only, so much as ripple default. The P key takes you out of ripple.

[David Lawrence] "That's the most frustrating thing about this whole debacle. All that power under the hood and no clear way for editors who work like me to take advantage of it. I hope Apple will address our needs in future updates but I'm not counting on it. Time will tell."

Yes. I do think that Apple is the only one that could have released a product in this way. There is virtually no other entity that has legacy interfaces would have taken this kind of risk. When viewing one of the web presentations that were flying around the internets after the release of X, there was an Avid exec who got up and said (and I'm paraphrasing) that they won't change the basics of their interface. Ever. I do not adhere to that style of thinking and saw it as a huge disappointment. Change hurts in the beginning. Pain is temporary.

Of course, the other side of that argument is that driving controls haven't changed much since the Model T.

Don't get me wrong. There needs to be some interface tweaks and definitely some more precision added to the interface as FCPX is far from perfect, but I see those as programming efficiencies that can and will, get fixed. One idea I think would help is some sort of layer target system. If I am adding an audio only clip to the example timeline above, I'd like to be able to select a clip in the timeline and by hitting a modifier + Q, that new clip would go above or below the selected clip in the timeline. Perhaps Shift Q is above, option Q is below, or something like that (up arrow-Q or down Arrow-q). That would prevent me from adding the clip and then dragging it to the order in the stack that I intend. Also, your suggestion of being able open compound clips in context of the main timeline is simply great. Basically, more control without tracks.

Again, thanks.

Jeremy


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 5:41:25 pm

[David Lawrence] "Even though my primary work involves video post-production services, I have a background in music and sound design and sound is the foundation for everything I post, whether a music video or documentary style interview. In effect, I use the NLE as both an NLE and a DAW in a fluid, back and forth process to create rhythm, pacing and beats with both picture and sound interchangeably. For me, it's all the same during the editorial phase.
"


My experience as well! David, you could be describing my work exactly.



[David Lawrence] "On the project I just finished, I posted a four and a half minute segment cut from a ~1 hour interview with a single subject. The speaker is interesting and engaging, but his speaking style is full of pauses and tangential thoughts. His final ~4 minute actuality has close to 300 edits. I craft the pauses, add or pull breaths and even construct entirely new sentences to make him succinct and editorially on point. It sounds perfect. You accept it as his actual speech without question. This is pretty typical of the work I do.
"


Wow. Me, too. I do a whole lot of sentence restructure and rhythm work. On every piece.



[David Lawrence] "For me, it's a very musical process, like scoring a symphony. That's why when I look at something like Shawn Federline's timeline, I don't see clutter, I see a musical score built on a common language that can easily be read, understood and shared across a range of applications and disciplines. And with audio especially, track arrangements, waveforms and clip patterns often make it possible to identify audio type instantly, just by looking. This at-a-glance feedback is a huge timesaver when sharing projects.
"


Again, constructing a trailer or promo is, for me, very much like scoring. Not just music and SFX, but speech patterns and rhythms, VO breaks and bridges. All very musical. David, we definitely think alike in our editorial approaches.


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 6:09:15 pm

The music analogy rings very true with me as well. Music and editing share that they are part organizational and mathematical, and part inspirational. Not eloquently stated but my phone is ringing.

bigpine


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 6:28:45 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Music and editing share that they are part organizational and mathematical, and part inspirational. Not eloquently stated but my phone is ringing."

:) Yes, editing/music/comedy/emotion/life. It's all timing. How does FCPX hinder your editing timing? That's what I am asking, I guess. I won't accept "because there are no tracks!" for an answer. :)

And for those that are still paying attention to the subject line, how does the Macbook Air portability factor fit in to your backpack factor, factually? Discuss.


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 6:52:07 pm

Well, as I have stated before - if not here then elsewhere - I find FCP X to be great for rough, broad strokes. I find it much more difficult to work with when demands become more precise. Admittedly this may just be my perspective but just consider if you were a musician in a symphony orchestra and one morning you came in to work and someone, completely arbitrarily, mandated that the conventions you had been used to all your life, the conventions that everyone else in your profession knows - conventions that in the case of music have been around for the last thousand years or so (and have worked fine during that period) all had different names and they all functioned a bit differently and - wait - some of them just didn't work at all anymore and they never would. What would be your thoughts this?

bigpine


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 6:55:18 pm

Q[TImothy Auld] "What would be your thoughts this?"

The synthesizer


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:01:36 pm

Jeremy that does not address even in the simplest way what I was talking about. Come on. The synthesizer? Do you think these guys read different music? It's a different tool to be sure. Does it change how music is notated and understood? No. If I hire a musician and he/she can't read music then that game is over. Forgive me but what the hell are you talking about?

bigpine


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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:24:36 pm

Hey All,

This is a super interesting conversation! How about we move it to it's own topic? I feel like there's a lot of rich ground we're just starting to cover and we're way way off this thread's original subject. Wouldn't want people to miss out!

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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:33:12 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Forgive me but what the hell are you talking about?"

Yikes. Slow down. It was a joke, kinda. I guess I shouldn't be a comedian, either. I guess everyone is claiming that FCPX is dumbed down, I was likening it to an orchestra in a box (like a synthesizer). Never mind, bad joke.

I guess I didn't get your analogy and it didn't answer my question.

Yes, the language of FCPX is a bit different, this is true. Did you look at the timeline and not understand it? It's an oversimplified timeline, but it's an example. Here's a direct link: X Timeline

I used to play instruments. I don't anymore, but I can still read sheet music, (although only in the treble clef).

So to take this out there, I guess you are asking what would I think if I came in to work and the sheet music was different? Instead of notes on the staff it had letters in a stack, but bflat was still bflat? The tempo had to be adjusted by choosing a different key instead or writing Andante at frame zero? But I wouldn't have to blow as hard for as long, I wouldn't have to soak my reed for as long, my 18 keys just went to 2, the timbre of the sound improved, and the end result is still wonderful music?

I guess I would decide if it's worth it, if not go to another orchestra that supports sheet music. Better?


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:43:14 pm

No, not sheet music. Music theory is as it has been notated for more than an thousand years. I am not really sure what you are getting at about this.

bigpine


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:47:42 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Music theory is as it has been notated for more than an thousand years. I am not really sure what you are getting at about this."

Help me understand.

This is your quote, it's kind of vague:

"Admittedly this may just be my perspective but just consider if you were a musician in a symphony orchestra and one morning you came in to work and someone, completely arbitrarily, mandated that the conventions you had been used to all your life, the conventions that everyone else in your profession knows - conventions that in the case of music have been around for the last thousand years or so (and have worked fine during that period) all had different names and they all functioned a bit differently and - wait - some of them just didn't work at all anymore and they never would. "

Please clue me in to the conventions of a symphony orchestra musician, that's all I need. We had been talking about tracks as sheet music before, so I took it there. Is that not what you are saying? Or are you talking about classical music as a convention or not just the musician as you mentioned here?


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:53:21 pm

You responded to something way down a thread. But if you don't get it by now then music has had conventions for a thousand years. Any musician understands them. No one is changing them. No one has changed them for a very long time. What part of that do you not understand?

bigpine


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Christian SchumacherRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:19:43 pm

We are just scared.

In the future, we won't be gently riding the wives through

Eastern Europe and chasing ancient ballets playing in old houses...


Instead we'll be wildly riding in the back of Tuk-Tuks and

watching HD files of a plagiarized Blue Men's concert!


Boy, that's scary!


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 9:08:39 pm

[TImothy Auld] "You responded to something way down a thread. But if you don't get it by now then music has had conventions for a thousand years. Any musician understands them. No one is changing them. No one has changed them for a very long time. What part of that do you not understand?"

I guess I just don't get what you are trying to say, and for that I apologize. All I get from it is that music conventions haven't changed in 1000 years, and no one wants to change them. I can't believe that and would doubt that it's true, but I don't have the exact knowledge to back it up. Unfortunately, I'm the loser.

Can I ask, what about electronic music (no instruments), and the musicians that create it? Do you think that might have an effect on musical conventions?

This started by a question I asked to David Lawrence, that I have edited here:

Also, do you think that this style of editing is simply impossible in FCPXs timeline?


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:30:38 pm

I noted in another response to Timothy, intonation has changed over the last few hundred years and certainly there are musical instruments and systems of composition that require different notation.

Conventions themselves have changed and it is true that some are niche but some are major. Intonation has changed and the same note on a sheet of paper in 1500 may not actually be the same tuning today.

Both Brian Eno and Philip Glass get work scoring film/video.
One can only imagine what the score of Forbidden Planet looked like (by Louis & Bebe Barron).

The real question is that can different methods of tuning and notation and sound creation tell a story conventionally understood (lets not talk about non conventions).

FCPX may start a new convention or just be a niche (only time will tell) but can you use it to tell the story you want to tell and can people viewing that story understand it? I'd say yes.



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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 9:08:50 pm

From the point at which well tempered tuning was established, back in Bach's days, I am not aware of any sudden changes in orchestral playing. Intonation has evolved slowly. Tim's point was not that music and musical instruments haven't changed, but that an oboist in Paris in 1840 could sit down in a recording session in LA today, look at a sheet of music, and play along with a bunch of modern musicians because of a shared set of conventions. Yes there have been changes in music since then - that same player would be lost playing with Brian Eno, the Ramones, or Miles Davis (especially Miles because he's quite dead.) However he could get by in most situations because our music notation is still based on those ancient European conventions.

This is about the value of shared conventions and the inefficiency of changing them.

Back to car analogies - It doesn't really matter whether you drive on the right side or the left, as long as your going in the same pattern as everyone else. The inefficiency of sudden change can really be felt the first time you rent a car in England and take it for a spin. So the question is whether the value received for breaking these conventions is worth the inefficiency of the change.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 9:58:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "an oboist in Paris in 1840 could sit down in a recording session in LA today, look at a sheet of music, and play along with a bunch of modern musicians because of a shared set of conventions."

And an Avid Media Composer editor from 1989 could sit in front of a Media Composer in 2011 and get comfortably pretty quickly as well. That can even describe me (used MC from 1989-2001) but if the same editor sat in front of the new instrument with new conventions (FCPX) they might find it easier to tell a story (in this case that would be me as well). I may well chose to be fluent in the new instrument.

I see no reason to be stuck in a convention which actually is still new enough to undergo radical changes.

[Herb Sevush] "This is about the value of shared conventions and the inefficiency of changing them. "

I may find the new way of doing things more efficient even if others don't.


If you're talking about simultaneous collaborative effort, such as musicians playing together, I may just the best collaborative instrument because convention may be important. If I'm a soloist in front of an instrument or NLE, the choice is mine.

If I choose to play the base with a traditional base guitar or a Chapman Stick and the base is conveyed to the listener than that's my choice of instrument.

As FCPX improves it's collaborative abilities then the choice of instrument is not an issue as long as the sound is achieved.

Some people are uncomfortable moving outside of convention and others aren't. There's no reason for FCPX to use the same conventions as Avid and Premiere (and others) if one feels they can play FCPX better.

The story told is the convention, the instrument played is wide open. XML is a notation and it seems third parties are willing to work the FCPX's notation.



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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 11:11:47 pm

If you see yourself as a soloist and you like the way FCPX works, it is indeed a good match. I don't see myself as a soloist however, I often play in an ensemble in which new members often sit in at a moment's notice. In my setting, shared conventions help.

For me it's about financial efficiency. When X comes out with multi-cam and if it's implementation of it seems more valuable to me than the inefficiency of it's iconoclasm, then I'm not too hidebound to switch.

Multi-cam seems to me a perfect use of the metadata strength of X so I'm curious to see what they come up with.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 11:19:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I often play in an ensemble in which new members often sit in at a moment's notice. In my setting, shared conventions help."

My clients are more concerned with my output. They'd primarily focus on my output monitor (well they will when Apple does that early next year).

Sound and Colorists would only be concerned with being able to read my XML. That's going to happen very quickly now that Apple has included that. SAN support is a start for facility use.

So who else has to care about what I sit in front. They may care if I can deliver faster. I care if I can get done an hour earlier.



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Herb SevushRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 30, 2011 at 2:40:05 pm

Craig -

I oversee the post for a 26 episode series. I cut about 8 shows myself, the others are cut by a diverse group of freelancers, working at home on their own gear. When they finish their cuts I spend about 2 days polishing and finishing on mine. Up till now I've standardized on FCP7. Most editors can switch to Avid or PPro very easily because of the shared conventions. The pool of these similarly trained editors makes my kind of workflow possible. The time savings from a new type of insular editing approach would have to be very large to offset the advantages I get by being in the mainstream.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:48:46 pm

And yes, Ace, I understand the timeline. It is not that difficult to figure out;

bigpine


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:04:12 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Does it change how music is notated and understood?"

Have you followed some of the debates over the tunings for original chamber music. The intonations (tuning) may have been significantly different. The modern tunings are not what they were using. To pout it another way, tuning itself has changed. Yes the "understanding" has changed.

[TImothy Auld] "The synthesizer? Do you think these guys read different music?"

Not all synths are keyboard synths. Serge Modular is one example that's been around for over 30 years. Eric Drew Feldman (of Captain Beefheart) used one (and his day job was as a technician at Serge)

Also listen to many of Brian Eno's pieces.

Maybe FCPX is a "different" instrument but it may be quite capable of telling a story that can be conventionally understood.

Maybe another example is the ground broken with midi sequencers which allowed one to go beyond traditional scoring techniques. Think of Dr T's KCS (Emile Tobenfeld who I think works at BorisFX now)

Breaking away from "traditions" may become niche or may develop into new standards. At some point someone risks breaking away.



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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:16:58 pm

First and foremost it is not about the individual instrumentation it is about the orchestra. And point me toward any scholarly discussion about chamber music or any other kind of music that diverges significantly from current (and I mean right now) music notation. This is all about a language that everybody understands. Tell me definitively that what Mozart wrote over two hundred years ago should be played any differently now.

bigpine


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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:20:00 pm

And just by the way, tuning is a very personal pursuit.

bigpine


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:48:30 pm

[TImothy Auld] "And point me toward any scholarly discussion about chamber music or any other kind of music that diverges significantly from current (and I mean right now) music notation."

http://www.the-compound.org/writing/classicaltuning.pdf

http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html

http://cnx.org/content/m11639/latest/

Tunings have changed over time and there are tunings based on culture (types of music).
An "A#" may have been very different and the relationship between the notes which impact both the sound melody and chordal movement have changed.

To even assume there is "one standard" is very "western"
The notes meaning to a European orchestra might mean something different to that hundreds of years ago, may vary by region and may vary radically by culture.

And notation itself has changed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music
During the period, composers and performers used more elaborate musical ornamentation, made changes in musical notation, and developed new instrumental playing techniques.

and
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1571989

If fact that may be the very root of the problem in that FCPX is breaking with a "tradition" that is only very recent and is absolutely not immune to change.



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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 9:04:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And for those that are still paying attention to the subject line, how does the Macbook Air portability factor fit in to your backpack factor, factually? Discuss."

Hey All,

I've started another thread where we can continue this discussion and be on topic ;)

Please join me here:

NLEs, DAWs, Tracks and Audio-centric Workflows -- Continuing the Conversati...

I'll be quoting from this thread as needed. Looking forward to getting deeper into the many interesting questions and points we're discussing.

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TImothy AuldRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 30, 2011 at 12:15:34 pm

There has been a treble clef, a bass clef, a staff, and a time signature for centuries. No one has repurposed the clefs, eliminated lines of the staff, or changed the value of the notes.

bigpine


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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 6:59:14 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Again, constructing a trailer or promo is, for me, very much like scoring. Not just music and SFX, but speech patterns and rhythms, VO breaks and bridges. All very musical. David, we definitely think alike in our editorial approaches."

Chris -- you, me and thousands of others in our industry. Think about the branding for Avid's flagship NLEs... They're named that way for a reason :)

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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 7:13:06 pm

[David Lawrence] "Think about the branding for Avid's flagship NLEs... They're named that way for a reason :)
"


LOL. True.


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Simon UbsdellRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 8:24:16 pm

Thanks, David. Someone has finally articulated perfectly my own workflow as regards audio - or rather has pointed out that for some forms of editing there can be no separation between the video and the audio processes.

As someone who works equally in sound and picture, I can say that DAWs are not going to be adopting a trackless model any time soon (please let this be true!!!!) - so many fundamental mixing processes depend on the track paradigm that any attempt to change this would be substantially more disruptive (to say the very least) than what has happened with FCPX and video editing.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:47:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This is how I envision the Index eventually being able to work. "

The index is kind of a cool thing. At least the idea of it. I haven't played with it yet enough to know how I'd currently rate it. But of all the new thoughts in FCP X it is probably the thing I find most interesting.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 2:09:30 am

[Chris Harlan] "But of all the new thoughts in FCP X it is probably the thing I find most interesting."

I agree. To me, it is the very hub of what FCPX is about, or the foundation from which all things in the timeline stem. Obviously, I am excited about it. In my mind, it's an interesting differentiator.


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David LawrenceRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:39:56 pm

Interesting sub-thread, really enjoying the ideas here.

[Jeremy Garchow] "
You don't see any use for a role based vertically sortable timeline? Meaning for any given primary storyline clips and everything connected to it, if you want your audio to always stack as dialogue, then effects, then music? I can think of some really practical reasons, especially when there's no tracks. "


[Jeremy Garchow] "And it's not there yet. Roles are just the beginning the jumping off point, of how a database driven design will help manage data."

Agree that roles have a lot of potential, especially for data management. What I don't see is how they make it easier to edit. Cutting and data management are two very different tasks. They may be related, but the actual work and the tools I need to be efficient are completely different. One of the thing I need is structured visual organization, something that tracks intrinsically provide.

It might eventually be possible to assign a lane index to roles to simulate tracks, but I think things things will start getting messy fast. I'd be happier if the limit on a single primary storyline went away and became user definable. Let me set up my sequence to fit my organization needs, then add data management tools to that.

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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:59:36 pm

[David Lawrence] "One of the thing I need is structured visual organization, something that tracks intrinsically provide. "

And if I think how Roles will evolve, something that they can provide as well, but not limiting the user to limitations imposed by tracks. It will be non destructive and sortable. Sort by roles (or for ease of example, this could be like by track) or sort by the normal FCPX way, which is to say, the normal vertical clip priority.

I am not simply talking about the relatively simple and physical act of placing a cut, I am talking about overall project management. That is certainly part of every editor's job to keep things organized. Editing is organizing with effects, after all that's why everyone is so upset that tracks are gone, right? It forces a certain way of organizing right away.

In the database driven architecture that might be in FCPX (Yes, Mr Huff, this is still theory), when you can start to sort the timeline by Role, or whatever other parameter yet still have the timeline playback in the vertical clip priority nature it was intended, the FCPX editing devices might start to work and make sense in a trackless environment. This will give you visual organization however you might see fit. It might be a "way out there" idea, but whatever.


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 2:18:49 pm

[David Lawrence] "Remember, Apple doesn't always hit home runs (Ping, MobileMe, hockey-puck shaped mouse, etc.)"

And, they tend to stick with them. How long did it take Apple to concede that there might actually be a use for a second button on a mouse?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:41:42 pm

[Chris Harlan] "[David Lawrence] "Remember, Apple doesn't always hit home runs (Ping, MobileMe, hockey-puck shaped mouse, etc.)"

And, they tend to stick with them. How long did it take Apple to concede that there might actually be a use for a second button on a mouse?"


David-

You are right, Apple doesn't always hit home runs. Humans actually work there who make mistakes. I think MobileMe is great although it stuttered at first. I do not use Ping, but I think iTunes will survive without it. The computers that were attached to those hockey-pucks brought Apple back from the brink.

Chris-

The control key solved that. And to be fair, their latest "two button" mouse still only has one "button".


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:44:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow]The control key solved that. And to be fair, their latest "two button" mouse still only has one "button".

The control key was a completely asinine solution to an incredibly simple "problem."

And no matter how you slice it, Magic Mouse does have two buttons because I use that all the time. Throw all the semantics out you want.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:01:11 pm

[Gary Huff] "And no matter how you slice it, Magic Mouse does have two buttons"

No, no it doesn't. The mouse is a button. It has multiple areas of function, just like the trackpad has one button, but it has multiple functions.

As far as the control-key argument, we can stop right? That was years ago and hasn't been a problem for the same number of years. OSX has a right click and has for a very long time.


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:31:14 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think MobileMe is great although it stuttered at first."

iDisk is great for getting and receiving files from clients. If only they'd continue it and allow for larger files and protected folders.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I do not use Ping, but I think iTunes will survive without it"

Like any other feature, unless one is forced to use it, one doesn't have to. For example, I know some people are under the impression they have to go through and log all the clips with keywords. There are those who think that one must tag a file first to create a keyword collection. It's just as easy to create an empty keyword collection and just drag a bunch of clips and drop them in, much like bins.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The computers that were attached to those hockey-pucks brought Apple back from the brink."

The hockey pucks didn't damage the OS or the computer's core abilities. It's great how Mac USB ports allowed us to chose other mice as desired. Reliance on third party support is not a bad thing. It adds flexibility. There may be many ways to input or output to tape when needed. There may be many ways to move around FCPXML.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The control key solved that. And to be fair, their latest "two button" mouse still only has one "button"."

And there's the trackpad with gestures as another option.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You are right, Apple doesn't always hit home runs. Humans actually work there who make mistakes."

And providing resources to third parties will allow a broad choice of pinch hitters and relief pitchers. Not only do I think FCPX is a move towards more modularity but I think Apple's hardware may head that way as well.



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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:56:21 pm

[Craig Seeman] "iDisk is great for getting and receiving files from clients. If only they'd continue it and allow for larger files and protected folders."

I rarely use mobileme for this as we use a website to transfer files. I do use it to sync all my devices through the air, which is great, and now that will be free.


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 11:41:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Chris-

The control key solved that. And to be fair, their latest "two button" mouse still only has one "button".
"


Now, come on. The ctrl key makes you use two hands where only one is necessary.


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Tim WilsonRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:55:37 pm

[Chris Harlan] " How long did it take Apple to concede that there might actually be a use for a second button on a mouse?"

They NEVER conceded the use for a second-button mouse. Their response to years of criticism was to introduce the ZERO button mouse (the Apple Pro Mouse -- seriously? PRO?), which was intended to change the way mice work. This gotten taken to the next level with the Mighty Mouse - instead of a second button, you got to squeeze the thing.

In general, Apple's mice have been some of the worst tech that anybody ever introduced ANYWHERE, perhaps only exceeded by the Ford Pinto, and that one only wins because it caught on fire -- actually, not unlike the power cord for the Powerbook, and surface of the 17" AV monitor, which shot a long, visible arc so powerful it left me dizzy.

(My brother-in-law was the product manager for that, and they killed it pretty fast. He also killed the Apple scanner. In fact, he became known inside the company for joining teams in order to kill their products. The list of Apple's failures is actually pretty long.)

So what has been the problem with Apple's mice? They appear to have been made by people who don't actually use computers for a living. They try too hard to solve problems that don't exist. They refuse to conform to industry standards that actually work pretty well....

...oh yeah, and then completely discard anything resembling a standard for a new interface (the Magic Mushroom...I mean, Magic Trackpad) that's not all that helpful for professional media production, and only arguably a step forward because of the basic functionality it leaves out -- unless you're willing to climb a meaningful learning curve (Apple actually includes HELP videos to teach you how to use it, all in the name of progress.

Is ANY of this sounding familiar?


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+1

Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:59:21 pm

[Tim Wilson] "They appear to have been made by people who don't actually use computers for a living. They try too hard to solve problems that don't exist. They refuse to conform to industry standards that actually work pretty well. ... Is ANY of this sounding familiar?"

I'll put on my apologist hat and mention that if you want to hit home runs, you should expect a lot of strikeouts.

I'll take the hat back off and ask which one of these FCPX is.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:02:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'll take the hat back off and ask which one of these FCPX is."

I agree. Those are all peripherals. You can choose to use them as part of the system or replace them with something that is better for you. FCPX is much more than a peripheral.


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Tim WilsonRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:32:20 pm

Apologies for me going postal, Walter and Jeremy. I've used Apple mice since Lisa, and I think they are truly hideous for anything but looking at. This has been a pet peeve of mine for 20 years.

And no, I have no life, and yes, I hate it when kids run across my lawn.

I was at MacWorld New York i 2000 when Steve did an Oprah to introduce the PRO mouse. (Which forever tainted my impression of Apple's use of the word PRO, but that's another story.) Behold! The zero button mouse was attached to the bottom of the chair. Admittedly, I only heard from a few dozen people sitting right around me, but the consensus was that guys were going to put them on their desks for show, and never use them. Obviously, plenty of people DID use them, and Mighty Mouse et al, I'm just saying.

Gotta give Microsoft this: they make amazing mice. Some of that is because an awful lot of their customers tend to sit in front of computers for long hours, so MSFT spends millions to develop mice that are comfortable, efficient, and supportive of joint and nerve health. Apple spends that money, and more, on design.

FWIW, that MacWorld event -- the last in NY? -- also introduced the Mac Cube. Absolutely the most beautiful little thing. Gorgeous. One of them sits in the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art.

Its several problems include that it transmitted vibration to your desk so strongly that you could feel it on the keys of the shiny new USB extended keyboard at the show when you put in a DVD. The case also had fine yet visible cracks that you could also feel if you touched the case -- and how could you not? It BEGGED to be touched.

And while it never felt hot to the touch (at least not that I remember), you could definitely "smell" heat inside it. If you've smelled hot electronics, you know what I mean. Not outrageous by any means, but I can't remember another Apple product that smelled hot. Maybe the inside of the 8100?

Which is to say, it's likely that the world class designers who created the Cube probably didn't spend that much time using it, or they'd have noticed these issues in just a few days, tops.

This is certainly veering off topic, but I'm not sure quite how far off topic if you know what I mean.


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Bill DavisRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 12:21:33 am

Following the meme of the Edison riff on knowing a thousand ways NOT to make a lightbulb?

We'll likely never know if the iPhone, and iPad could have come out of a shop where everyone was focused on building incremental revisions of "standards" rather than a culture of "try something different and we'll see what sticks."

But I don't think Apple's patent portfolio came about by accident, Tim.

Just sayin.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Tim WilsonRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 1:18:53 am

[Bill Davis] "But I don't think Apple's patent portfolio came about by accident, Tim."

Of course not. My point just that plenty of it is annoying to the point of uselessness, and that there are a lot more dead ends than most people remember. As Walter Soyka observes, home run hitters strike out more often than batters who stroke for average. A series of wobbly steps after a long run of good ones is nothing more than a regression to the mean.

For the record, I don't think that their FCPX release strategy is one of the wobbly steps. I think that they got it exactly right, including the immediate EOL'ing of the old software.

That's how I'da done it. Of course, I'm pretty annoying myself.


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Andy NeilRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:42:25 pm

[Tim Wilson] "...oh yeah, and then completely discard anything resembling a standard for a new interface (the Magic Mushroom...I mean, Magic Trackpad) that's not all that helpful for professional media production, and only arguably a step forward because of the basic functionality it leaves out -- unless you're willing to climb a meaningful learning curve (Apple actually includes HELP videos to teach you how to use it, all in the name of progress."

You know, I was surprised by how well some of the trackpad gestures worked when working on my laptop (I'm new to the laptop world). For a desktop, I could definitely see a new paradigm to the mouse where you use a two-handed trackpad perhaps with a display (like an ipad but larger). Perhaps it even replaces the keyboard as well (although I prefer typing on actual keys).

An industry standard is only an industry standard until it's not. Remember when phones used to have buttons on them?

Andy

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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 1:21:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's hard to sum up as there are so many aspects, but I have read on this forum how X's interface is "dumbed down" and therefore by that definition must be inferior. While I don't think it's ready for primetime, I do not think it is dumbed down, actually I think it's more complex because it is "doing more for you" even though that control is limited at the moment."

I don't think "dumbed down" is synonymous with "easier to use," though I think it is practically synonymous with "easy to learn."

The limited control you mentioned is the problem -- is FCPX sacrificing ease of use for ease of learning?


[Jeremy Garchow] "Call me crazy, but I like iTunes. Is it bad that I'm okay with FCPx being a little like iTunes?"

Agreed! I like that Apple uses concepts and interfaces like smart collections consistently across all their apps. I think that smart collections are pretty easy to use, and since they're consistent across the platform, they're easier to learn. If you learn them in iTunes, you know them in Mail, Aperture, and FCPX.


[Jeremy Garchow] "All of that is pretty damn complex, and also does not resemble any Apple app that I am aware of. It also attempts to explain a trackless timeline, and the parent/child relationship in the new XML. If all of this is what is ultimately intended by Apple there is probably really good reason that Apple did not unleash this level of complexity at once. Mostly, it protects them as they release functions little by little to make sure they are working, and perhaps wait for certain Operating System functions to complete. As a result, it allows users to learn the language step by step before total immersion."

You've outlined some very cool ideas that could be possible with FCPX, but are they really likely?

Aperture has added features, but the core function and interface of the application is largely unchanged since its initial release. Same with Motion, Pages, Numbers, and Keynote.

All of these apps represent Apple's interpretation or re-interpretation of what an app in their category should be. I think Apple already has a very good idea of what they want FCPX to be, and if history is any guide, the feel and structure of the app is already pretty much in place.

As for your feature suggestions, I hope you submit them [link]! Apple would do very well to listen to your ideas.

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:33:42 pm

[Walter Soyka] "is FCPX sacrificing ease of use for ease of learning?"

Maybe for now, perhaps. They are asking a lot of FCPX users that have edited another way in the past. Releasing the flood gates of a totally new language on Day 1 would have been even more distressing then releasing X.0.0 in the state it was in.

[Walter Soyka] "You've outlined some very cool ideas that could be possible with FCPX, but are they really likely?"

I have no idea what Apple is thinking. The only evidence I have is what is available in the application. Roles is just the beginning, in my opinion.

I guess I tend to look at things with a tad more optimism than some, a boy can dream can't he? Apple engineers seem to be pretty smart people. The way I look at it, there has to be really good reason for doing what they are trying to do in changing the way we think about editing, and I don't think it's to simply dumb down the interface, or make more money from the consumer sphere. These are design choices they are making for fit in to the "ecosystem" that Craig mentioned, we just don't have the whole picture. I think they are trying to do what they do best and build a complex system that is quite powerful and might be easy to use for most people, but when getting to more advanced feature will take a bit more thought. I am super curious to see what's going to come out of the camera SDK.

[Walter Soyka] "Aperture has added features, but the core function and interface of the application is largely unchanged since its initial release. Same with Motion, Pages, Numbers, and Keynote. "

I do not think the core interface of FCPX will change a ton, but adding the Roles feature changed the timeline interface quite a bit. It starts to show the power of the database. No one who could speak about it publicly saw Roles coming, so what else is coming that we can't see? More features like Roles brings more power to the application. i do think, just by looking at the structure of how everything is organized on the Finder level, at some point true and dedicated sharing is going to be a big component of FCPX. Perhaps that's not really easy to see right now.

[Walter Soyka] "I think Apple already has a very good idea of what they want FCPX to be, and if history is any guide, the feel and structure of the app is already pretty much in place."

I would agree with that, I am sure Apple has a plan. They have also changed a few things from the user feedback in the first dot release so all of the complaints are not falling on deaf ears. If people are waiting around for tracks to come back, I don't think that's going to happen. I do think at some point, no one will miss them as the trackless system will be more complex, more powerful, and maybe easier to use. Time will tell.

Jeremy


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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:44:32 pm

Jeremy, I always enjoy discussing this with you. I know that we are looking at the same data and reaching different conclusions, but you always make well-reasoned and insightful points. Thank you for the debate!

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:57:41 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Thank you for the debate!"

Thank you, Walter. I like talking these things out, especially when we can really talk about what might be going on based on evidence. There isn't a ton of evidence right now, but there's definitely enough to keep the case from going cold, at least for my editing future. :)

Jeremy


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 4:58:17 pm

I'd just add that I think Apple has things in mind that Tracks would be a hinderance to. For me it's spreadsheet vs relational database analogy. The building out of the database and it's organization and use in the interface is in early stages. I think Roles are just the very earliest indication of where they may be heading... which we can only guess at.

When we read about "debates" over storing in and out points, which upsets some, we don't know the context, nor would Apple reveal that at this point. We don't know the long term database or function implications or how that might monkey wrench some feature or implementation down the road... that they already have in mind.

While I or anyone else, not privy to their discussions, can only speculate where Apple is headed, I'm surprised at how many "creatives" here can't imagine that they have something powerful that at least they (Apple) has in mind.

I personally think one thing is very clear. FCPX is just one part of a developing ecosystem by Apple in post production and distribution of content. To think anything else is shortsighted in my opinion. We can't know whether they will succeed but there is serious, "professional" intent.



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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:51:29 pm

[Craig Seeman] "While I or anyone else, not privy to their discussions, can only speculate where Apple is headed, I'm surprised at how many "creatives" here can't imagine that they have something powerful that at least they (Apple) has in mind."

I don't think a lack of imagination or creativity is the problem here -- I think it's a lack of trust. Apple seriously damaged their credibility with the launch of FCPX. Given this, can you really blame people for wanting to see before they believe?


[Craig Seeman] "I personally think one thing is very clear. FCPX is just one part of a developing ecosystem by Apple in post production and distribution of content. To think anything else is shortsighted in my opinion. We can't know whether they will succeed but there is serious, "professional" intent."

If you had made the same wager on about Apple's intent toward professional photography based on Aperture's release in 2005, do you think you would have won?

There was really nothing like Aperture when it was released. Aperture was modern digital photo management done right. Unfortunately, development was slow, and cool technologies like facial recognition came to iPhoto well before they made it to Aperture. Apple opted not to introduce a companion image-editing companion app. The result? Adobe's Lightroom (offering similar functionality with a more traditional media management model) caught up to Aperture in no time, then quickly surpassed it in some regards.

It's not that I can't see all the potential in FCPX; it's that all I see today is potential, and I have no idea when, if, or to what extent that potential will be realized. I see a lot of potential in competing apps, too, but without the immediate downside that FCPX is currently showing.

It could be that FCPX is part of a developing ecosystem, or it could end up being the video version of Aperture: a cool and quirky in-between application with loads of untapped potential. We'll all know more as it matures.

Walter Soyka
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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:34:14 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't think a lack of imagination or creativity is the problem here -- I think it's a lack of trust. Apple seriously damaged their credibility with the launch of FCPX. Given this, can you really blame people for wanting to see before they believe?"

Different issue then I was addressing but certainly an issue none the less.

Some people are criticizing the feature set or the direction they're taking.

Others are criticizing the introduction of the product. I wont argue that. I think the lack of transition as Apple had done with OS9 to OSX or PPC to Intel is a big business mistake. Even if FCS3 continued for sale with only maintenance releases while FCPX was developed, a lot of facilities wouldn't have been backed into a corner. I still suspect there's an "unseen" business issue they faced but, if that was the case, it still was handled poorly as far as the end user is concerned.

[Walter Soyka] "Adobe's Lightroom (offering similar functionality with a more traditional media management model) caught up to Aperture in no time, then quickly surpassed it in some regards."

And the same may happen with regards to FCPX feature set. It does seem like Apple is moving relatively quickly with FCPX but there's a lot of "catch up" involved in this case. Aperture wasn't catching up with anything that I know of whereas FCPX is catching up with both FCP7 and the competitors.


[Walter Soyka] "It could be that FCPX is part of a developing ecosystem, or it could end up being the video version of Aperture: a cool and quirky in-between application with loads of untapped potential. We'll all know more as it matures."

Personally I think Apple has much more motivation behind FCPX than Aperture but we'll have a better picture at the speed and feature set of subsequent updates. I don't think Apple intended Aperture to sell hardware so much as to be a professional iPhoto (unfortunately). I do think FCPX is being designed to sell new hardware. Of course I have no idea if that will be executed successfully but I do think the intent and motivation behind FCPX is different than Aperture.



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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 7:00:14 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't think Apple intended Aperture to sell hardware so much as to be a professional iPhoto (unfortunately). I do think FCPX is being designed to sell new hardware. "

Craig, you've lost me here. I thought your argument was that all Apple's software, be it iPhoto, Aperture, iMovie, or FCPX, was meant to sell Apple's hardware in order to run it.

Why do you think Aperture was meant to be iPhoto Pro, but FCPX was meant to be more than iMovie Pro?

Walter Soyka
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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:22:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Why do you think Aperture was meant to be iPhoto Pro, but FCPX was meant to be more than iMovie Pro?"

I don't think Aperture sells hardware. I'm not sure if Apple knew where to go with it and it's while Lightroom may have eclipsed it. In fact Lightroom (and Bridge also) are much more of an "ecosystem" tool that Aperture has been. I don't think Aperture has had a clear direction other than being a more feature rich version of iPhoto.

There's a lot of reasons to believe and see FCPX being a device to move hardware. Some are overt such as the need for systems with newer GPUs. Others, although speculative, I think are related to Apple looking to sell more computers of various types. That's why we see discussion on this forum of MacBookAir with Thunderbolt ports. That doesn't mean other NLEs won't take advantage of that but Apple tends not to be reliant on third party software to sell their hardware.

I also think whatever replaces the MacPro as something Apple will want FCPX to sell. I think Apple sees FCPX eventually being a "hub" in both a portable and facility post environment. It's a very long way from here to there though. I don't see any business motive for FCPX to repeat Aperture's current situation.



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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 8:38:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Craig Seeman] "While I or anyone else, not privy to their discussions, can only speculate where Apple is headed, I'm surprised at how many "creatives" here can't imagine that they have something powerful that at least they (Apple) has in mind."

I don't think a lack of imagination or creativity is the problem here -- I think it's a lack of trust. Apple seriously damaged their credibility with the launch of FCPX. Given this, can you really blame people for wanting to see before they believe?
"


Agreed. Craig, it really is not that we cannot "imagine" a more muscular future for FCP X. I think the potential is possibly there, but the big picture is very much a Rorschach test. Some of us look at the inkblot and see the future of video, and some of us see a discarded pro system on a voyage that is purely prosumer. Sadly, Apple has done little to clarify, which some people read as "Apple's way" and others take as there being nothing more to say. So, trust, or lack there of, is really the problem.


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Bernard NewnhamRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 2:54:48 pm

"Whether you use iPhoto, Aperture, iMovie, Mail, etc. they want you to have the same interface. Smart folders is a good example. It's a 'unified' approach"

I thought that was the point of earlier generations - all NLEs were growing to work the same way, because that's the way it works bets. Not because one manufacturer said so, but because that's the way users liked it. All that JKLIO SPACE worked on Avid, so rivals decided to use it, and all gradually join in. Very sensible for all.

bernie


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Craig SeemanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 3:20:12 pm

Apple is keeping some conventions and creating some new ones. JKL is still there. They're rethinking the entire interaction/GUI in attempt to make it easier, more intuitive. I don't know if that'll work for some people but I certainly see why a developer would make changes. I've run into enough "odd" interfaces. . . Quantel lives in their own world but certainly their products have done well at times.



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Steve ConnorRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 4:00:11 pm

Apple have clearly decided to go in a different direction, they have a plan,they wouldn't be Apple if they didn't.

I'm glad they have, I may be unusual but on the whole I like the new interface, I am working on a number of projects at the moment including a couple on PPro and I much prefer working in FCPX, despite it not being a "proper edit system"

However if I didn't like it then PPro would be a completely natural upgrade from FCP7, it's a great piece of software.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:07:17 pm

[Steve Conner]Apple have clearly decided to go in a different direction, they have a plan,they wouldn't be Apple if they didn't.

Of course they have a plan. So does Adobe, Avid, HP, Microsoft, McDonalds, ect. ect. ect. You don't become a successful company without one.

That Apple's plan is going to be successful simply because it's Apple is not an automatic given.


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Clint WardlowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 4:02:17 pm

While we are wishing for stuff on the ipad, why not include an Arri-quality HD raw video camera and a Schoepps-quality internal mike. Then all we would need to make movies is an ipad. And instead of just links to Youtube and the like, you could have FCPX link directly to the Sundance or Telluride submission pages.


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Lemur HayopRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 7:50:24 pm

Editing-on-the-go is appropriate or inappropriate, depending on person. For me, opens up a lot of ideas.

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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 26, 2011 at 8:26:22 pm

What about the idea of portable editorial has anything to do with FCPX? We've been editing on laptops for a decade (first with Firewire connectivity, then with ExpressCard, soon with ThunderBolt). What compelling advantage will FCPX on an iPad have over FCPX on a laptop?

I've been trying to pass off the statement "Expectations rise at the same rate as capabilities" as Walter Soyka's First Law of Computer Graphics [link], but this is really basic economics and I think it applies here, too.

Many here are pointing to increased portability as a big new production capability. I'll counter that increased responsiveness and shorter deadlines will be the accompanying client expectations.

There's another side to this coin, too, though. While tomorrow's tablet may compete with yesterday's workstation, tomorrow's workstation will add more processing power, I/O, and storage options. Maybe it'll be overkill for straight HD editorial, but any editorial that requires effects, motion graphics, 3D rendering, compositing, or coloring will see corresponding increases in capabilities and expectations that tablets and laptops won't easily match.

In other words, I don't see the "portable edit bay" (your laptop is surely not a suite) obliterating their desk-bound brethren; I see them complementing them.

One other loosely related thought: improvements in computing are evolutionary, but improvements in video are revolutionary. We have more or less consistently eased from the lowly 8088 to today's Xeons, but we jumped from SD to HD.

Computers' performance relative to video will improve gradually as long as HD is king, but the next quantum leap in video will set relative performance back again, just as we saw going from SD to HD.

YouTube is ready for 4K -- is your iPad?

Walter Soyka
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James MortnerRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 12:00:13 pm

Agreed Walter, it seems alot more likely all these solutions will coexist rather than one destroying all others.

That means lovely new toys for us lot to play with !


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kim krauseRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:25:25 pm

i still can't believe the amount of replies to what was supposed to be a simple observation....fcpx running on a macbook air! one bright spark mentioned that he had been editing on laptops for quite awhile. that wasn't the point actually. what i meant was, that using a macbook and final cut would revolutionize the industry back then. here it is 6 years later and a similar revolution is taking place. a macbook air is extremely portable, and with thunderbolt and a lot more speed than even a macbook pro of 2 years back, we are in for another leap forward. imagine having all your media stored on a server that you could access using a macbook air running fcpx and you have an amazingly compact and fast system for editing. in my mind the next logical step is to replace the laptop altogether with a 5th generation iPad running fcpx version 3......makes you think about where we're heading.......unless you're brain dead and just can't think....for those folks there will always be the traditional edit suites, with all that lovely expensive equipment and monitors and couches and the chain tying your ass to the desk! hahahahahaha


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Clint WardlowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 6:58:59 pm

While the portable nature of an NLE and a laptop (or an NLE and an air or ipad) can definitely add convenience to the editing experience, there are just some instances where a suite is a must. Laptops loaded with an NLE didn't really revolutionize editing so much as add a level of convenience.

Film theaters and TV are not going away. The internet has just added another dimension to the mix. Aesthetically, film editing hasn't really changed much since Eisenstein and Griffiths revolutionized inner-cutting and montage back in the 1910s.

That any piece of software (or hardware) will revolutionize the art of editing is a false assumption in my book. That doesn't mean it isn't cool. It just adds another level of ease and nothing more. And from the vast output of (often very poor) product...I am not so sure that is a good thing. Sometimes I wish just as much emphasis was put on craft as the technology of the thing.


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Gerald BariaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:10:33 pm

^^Totally agree. At the end of the day, editing is just cutting and splicing stuff together. As hard as a lot of you make it seem, that's just what it is. And FCPX's main tagline is to relieve us from all the repetitive tasks that we do (like organizing, and clicking and dragging stuff just to make sure clips don't collide and sync stays where they're suppose to be ) so that we can focus on the most important part - the craft of TELLING THE STORY. Because every single issue above are just noise, distracting us from this more important part. A cut is just a cut. A graphics artists job is much more taxing/demanding. An animator, even more! This is just another cutting software after all, and its the first one that actually tried to make it easier, by "cutting" (pun intended) all the unnecessary noise of editing.

Quobetah
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Walter SoykaRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:34:01 pm

[Gerald Baria] "At the end of the day, editing is just cutting and splicing stuff together. As hard as a lot of you make it seem, that's just what it is... A cut is just a cut. A graphics artists job is much more taxing/demanding. An animator, even more!"

Gerald, was this piece of reductio ad absurdum supposed to be tongue-in-cheek?

If an editor just cuts and splices stuff together, then a graphics artist just rearranges elements in 2D space, and an animator just makes stuff move. It's all just clicking buttons on a computer, right?

All these disciplines require a mix of creative and technical thinking, and they all require a lot of skill and thought to do well. I say this as an editor who has transitioned into design and animation.


[Gerald Baria] "And FCPX's main tagline is to relieve us from all the repetitive tasks that we do (like organizing, and clicking and dragging stuff just to make sure clips don't collide and sync stays where they're suppose to be ) so that we can focus on the most important part - the craft of TELLING THE STORY. Because every single issue above are just noise, distracting us from this more important part... This is just another cutting software after all, and its the first one that actually tried to make it easier, by "cutting" (pun intended) all the unnecessary noise of editing."

I agree that FCPX has rethought editorial, but here's the crux of the discussion: there are many here who contend that while FCPX may make simple tasks simpler, it makes complex task more complex than before.

Walter Soyka
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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:15:03 am

[Walter Soyka] "[Gerald Baria] "At the end of the day, editing is just cutting and splicing stuff together. As hard as a lot of you make it seem, that's just what it is... A cut is just a cut. A graphics artists job is much more taxing/demanding. An animator, even more!"

Gerald, was this piece of reductio ad absurdum supposed to be tongue-in-cheek?

If an editor just cuts and splices stuff together, then a graphics artist just rearranges elements in 2D space, and an animator just makes stuff move. It's all just clicking buttons on a computer, right?

All these disciplines require a mix of creative and technical thinking, and they all require a lot of skill and thought to do well. I say this as an editor who has transitioned into design and animation."


Tall words, huh?

Gerald, maybe you ought to point people to some of your stuff so we can all see just how easy editing is.


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Gary HuffRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 27, 2011 at 9:47:09 pm

[Gerald Baria]And FCPX's main tagline is to relieve us from all the repetitive tasks that we do (like organizing,

Whether you are using FCPX's metadata, or re-naming clips in the bin, the process still involves clicking on a video clip, and typing in information. How does FCPX relieve you from this particular task?

and clicking and dragging stuff just to make sure clips don't collide and sync stays where they're suppose to be )

Do you have a problem with this? I don't.


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Rafael AmadorRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 11:10:37 am

[Gerald Baria] " At the end of the day, editing is just cutting and splicing stuff together. As hard as a lot of you make it seem, that's just what it is. And FCPX's main tagline is to relieve us from all the repetitive tasks that we do (like organizing, and clicking and dragging stuff just to make sure clips don't collide and sync stays where they're suppose to be ) so that we can focus on the most important part - the craft of TELLING THE STORY. "
FCPX will unleash the Spielberg that each of us have inside.
That is the bull-shit that Apple (and others) want the people believe: WE ARE ARTIST. WE ARE STORY TELLERS.
Or you live in Hollywood or you have a too romantic vision of this job.
NLEs are to edit video, even when there is not any story to tell (as happens with 75% of crap that is aired or streamed everyday all around the world).
If you want to concentrate in pure-story-telling, then hire an skilled video-editor to take care of all what may interfere with your creative processes.
Degrading video-editors skills won't improve story-telling skills.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Clint WardlowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:47:47 pm

I don't think it has to do with "degrading editors" skills. It has to do more with very basic elements of editing that were set back in the 1910s (and possibly revised somewhat in the 1930s with the advent of sound).
The aesthetics of editing have changed very little since then...we may have added some bells and whistles...but the way we communicate through film editing is pretty much the same way as when Eisenstein and Griffiths set the standard.
This isn't to say that the editor just follows these rules by rote and is merely a "cut and paste" guy. A good editor brings a lot to the table and can make or break a movie.
However, I think there is a modern tendency to get caught up in the technology of the thing and lose site of the very basic elements that go into solid editing.
And my main concern is that the democracy of modern computer editing --which is great on so many levels--is a two-edged sword in which a glut of product is being produced by those that lack even the most basic skills of editing and obscuring some truly great and often groundbreaking stuff created in this new "democracy".
Maybe it is just because it is new, but frankly most of the stuff I see on internet sites like blip are just short cheap versions of what is already on mainstream television. And frankly, with youtube it is hard to sort through all the crap to see anything remotely decent.


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Bill DavisRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 10:49:22 pm

A piano has 88 keys.

A computer keyboard has upwards of a hundred.

And a mouse and click interface can create a nearly infinate decision tree.

But the essential understanding might be that even on the 88 key piano - humans can bring forth jazz, classical, rock, and everything in between.

No matter how simple or complicated any NLE interface gets - it can't do anything but give you tools that you have to use to create something attractive.

Editing, isn't cutting streams of data OR "telling stories" - both those are both just possibilities along a continuum of many others.

The art is in finding how to use all this and more to connect ideas, motivations and shared experiences in ways that can be shared, stored, and yes, monitized - so that users achieve the results we want.

Editing video is a lot of things. Sometimes even simple. But "simplistic" it is most definitely not.

My 2 cents anyway.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:35:20 pm

Avid has now qualified the 13" Macbook Air.

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=362919

Jeremy


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 11:30:38 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Avid has now qualified the 13" Macbook Air.

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=362919

Jeremy
"


What a trip. Of course, if I don't want to buy multiple copies it will have to always have a dongle sticking out of it.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 28, 2011 at 11:57:13 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Of course, if I don't want to buy multiple copies it will have to always have a dongle sticking out of it."

The dongle dangle. Haven't had to do that for a while.


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Michael HancockRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 12:52:56 am

[Chris Harlan] "Of course, if I don't want to buy multiple copies it will have to always have a dongle sticking out of it."

Avid doesn't use a dongle anymore unless you call Inside Sales and buy one for $300. It's all software activation now - install on unlimited systems, activate and deactivate at will.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Chris HarlanRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 1:28:08 am

Oh yeah, I know, But if you have an older dongle--which I do--I've been told I can have it re-programed, and, if not, $300 is still much cheeper than 3 separate installations. I do hope, however, in v6 that they will have a scheme more like Adobe's that will recognize the laptop/work station relationship a bit better. Watching the recent changes in Avid, I'd imagine such innovation is now possible.


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Michael HancockRe: macbook air and fcpx- the new portable edit suite
by on Sep 29, 2011 at 2:35:00 am

[Chris Harlan] " But if you have an older dongle--which I do--I've been told I can have it re-programed"

Yeah, you just upgrade it and blast your dongle like you did before. Honestly, I never understood why people hated dongles so much - if you move from system to system, they're amazing.

The activation/deactivation I don't care for on Avid though. If you forget to deactivate before you go home it's a hassle, but you can still install it on an unlimited number of systems. You can only run one at at time though (through the server activation "dongle").

I'm sort of ok with Adobe's method - activate on 2 systems, you can't run them concurrently. But if you lose a hard drive and reinstall, god be with you. It's easier to own a license and run pirated software than deal with Adobe's deactivation/activation nonsense.

I imagine Avid will do something to make their activation easier/better at some point, or reintroduce the dongle (or hopefully make it an option without the $300 cost).

But this is OT. This thread was about FCPX running on a Macbook Air. I fail to see how that's so special - you can run Adobe, Media Composer, probably Media 100 and any other NLE on it too. It's not a revolution by any means.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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