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FCP X Update - When?

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Gerry FraibergFCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 3:22:53 pm

So here it is September 15th and in eastern Canada the leaves are starting to change colour. I wonder what is happening in Cupertino as we await the promised updates to FCP X? Earlier this week I called Smart Sound Software to inquire about the plug-in for Sonic Fire Pro. I was told they are still waiting for Apple to release the required information. I assume that would mean the APIs. Of course all we can do is speculate until the "New Software Is Available" message pops up on our screens.

Cheers,

Gerry



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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 5:35:16 pm

Apple mentioned "summer" so that would give them one more week.
Several people are saying they've heard about a couple of updates between now and November.
Apparently lots of developers are waiting for APIs. I believe RedGiant and others have said as much as well.

Given the pressure on Apple, the update might be delayed because anything less than a pleasing update with some improvements, it likely going to get another round of wrath and people finalizing the purchase decisions in different directions. In other words an update that might have been minor with bug fixes and a couple of improvements, may well be more major (and hence longer to debug.



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Gerry FraibergRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 6:04:20 pm

I would like to think that any update will be worth waiting for. And, yes, it's better that they get it right. I can only imagine the thousands of lines of code "under the hood" that make it work.



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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 6:14:44 pm

[Gerry Fraiberg] "I would like to think that any update will be worth waiting for. And, yes, it's better that they get it right."

I agree but there's a lot of people complaining that it's been nearly three months than nothing. Someone hypocritical when people complain FCPX was released "unfinished" and then they complain that Apple doesn't rush out an update.

Of course if Apple had waited until early 2012 to get out a more feature complete FCPX, they'd be complaining about how Apple doesn't care about the "pros" because they're taking too long.



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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 6:41:43 pm

[Craig Seeman] "
I agree but there's a lot of people complaining that it's been nearly three months than nothing. Someone hypocritical when people complain FCPX was released "unfinished" and then they complain that Apple doesn't rush out an update.

Of course if Apple had waited until early 2012 to get out a more feature complete FCPX, they'd be complaining about how Apple doesn't care about the "pros" because they're taking too long.
"


you've kind of got their back covered in both directions there craig.


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Marvin HoldmanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 6:53:24 pm

Hmmm, already had an update to Lion, and it was released after FCPX. Because Apple is stubbornly mute on the issue, I think most take the lack of even a minor incremental release alongside the near immediate bug fix for Lion as the closest thing we can use to determine their regard for the importance of their FCPX users.

I think the inference from the FAQ was that MANY of the problems that plague this program would be addressed by now. Hell, we aren't even seeing a START at this point. I say that because of the emphasis placed on "third party developers" to alleviate many of the problems. Perhaps they are allowing a head start for select vendors, but I don't see that as pulling them out of this tailspin, as there really isn't the diversity of third party development needed to get this application even CLOSE to the functionality it's EOL'd predecessor.

It would appear that FCPX has all the indications of a program that is dying in the starting block. As many have pointed out, competing NLE's are moving forward with their development cycles as well and it's only logical to believe they will take the "awesome" parts of FCPX and incorporate them into their products. One might assume that by the time Apple gets around to fleshing out this app, the other NLE's will be use that much father ahead.

Wish it wasn't so, but every day that goes by seems to render FCPX that much more inconsequential... other than it being a stellar example of how to ROYALLY tarnish brand image. In that regard, it's an "awesome" success.

Marvin Holdman
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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 7:18:32 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "I think most take the lack of even a minor incremental release alongside the near immediate bug fix for Lion as the closest thing we can use to determine their regard for the importance of their FCPX users. "

Different development teams, different issues and, yes, Lion impacts far more people than FCPX.

[Marvin Holdman] "here really isn't the diversity of third party development needed to get this application even CLOSE to the functionality it's EOL'd predecessor. "

It seems nearly all the third party developers have announced continued support of FCPX . . WHEN the APIs are ready.



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Marvin HoldmanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:18:58 pm

[CRAIG SEEMAN] "Different development teams, different issues and, yes, Lion impacts far more people than FCPX."

Sadly, this re-enforces a point that was made MANY months before they released FCPX. I can remember when they announced a major staff cut to the FCS team. At the time, many said it was a sign of "end times" for Apple and NLE's. Although I didn't want to believe it, I would say those folks were right now.

The point is, even though the teams are different, if Apple deemed this an important project, they would commit resources to support it. By all appearances they have not. Yes, Lion is a much broader user base, and it's a MUCH more complex program. If Apple were serious about building an enterprise level NLE product, they would have committed the staff to make this happen. Apparently, they have not.

My point is, while there certainly is promise to the framework the commitment to follow through in a timely manner is not indicative of a company serious about supporting this product as anything other than a "toy". I would imagine you might say, "they are on their own timetable, look at other product developments like iPhone". I wouldn't disagree, except before iPhone there wasn't an established user base. Perhaps it will SLOWLY evolve into something one day, but other companies that stake their livelihood on building enterprise solutions will incorporate all of this "good framework" into their products too. In the end, the time you spend working with functional "today" products seems like it will pay off better than any investment in the "future" of this thing.

So why would anyone stick around and argue the point? I'm only here playing devils advocate to see if maybe, just maybe Apple will get their head out of their collective tush and create something that might be viable. It's just that as more and more time passes, it becomes clearer and clearer that this is going nowhere. My only question at this point is how much longer is it worth even talking about all this? I hit this forum with less and less frequency only to find that nothing has changed, and there doesn't seem to be any real follow up to Apple's FAQ's. Will they come? Sure. But when they get here, will they even matter any more?

Marvin Holdman
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8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
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phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:38:15 pm

[Marvin Holdman] " If Apple were serious about building an enterprise level NLE product, they would have committed the staff to make this happen. Apparently, they have not. "

It's hard to even speculate about this. We don't know what resources they're using or what issues they're running into. Perhaps it depends on what "more resource" they need. It may be time. More people don't necessarily make things go faster if the lack of people isn't the issue. It may well be that development in a couple of problem areas have slowed the rest of the teams. Adding more cooks isn't going to help if the farm isn't yielding enough crops. Adding more farmers isn't going to improve a bad weather situation. We simply do not know why things are taking longer.

Assuming Apple wants to use FCPX to generate hardware sales, it'll get the resources it needs. Unlike AppleTV, Apple hasn't declared FCPX a hobby and whenever there's a report of a meeting Apple keeps insisting they're serious about supporting "professionals." Even if their definition of "professional" is "different" they still intent in investing to support some group they think of as "professionals."

[Marvin Holdman] "It's just that as more and more time passes, it becomes clearer and clearer that this is going nowhere. My only question at this point is how much longer is it worth even talking about all this? I hit this forum with less and less frequency only to find that nothing has changed, and there doesn't seem to be any real follow up to Apple's FAQ's. Will they come? Sure. But when they get here, will they even matter any more?"

There's market deadlines and there are the issues that impact development. As per Keycode Media presentation if they don't have something that shows promise before November, budgets for next year are going to be locked into transition purchases. Of course rushing out an unfinished product is, in part, what got Apple into this mess.

I agree that there's less reason to discuss FCPX as time goes on . . . until the update . . . at which point we'll all be fighting over whether there's promise in it. They probably won't add everything people are asking for yet. To me, I think the APIs are critical because if they can't support the third party developers that pretty much sinks the ship IMHO. People love their plugins as productivity/creativity boosters and FCPX doesn't do it all by itself. If NoiseIndustries, Boris, RedGiant bale out that's going to be the most serious damage.



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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 7:14:53 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "you've kind of got their back covered in both directions there craig."

Personally I think they should have taken their time and gotten it right the first time. The sneak peek should have been enough to show a "work in progress" and then maybe followed up with an updated peek or maybe an actually legit announcement at IBC so they could have released a viable 1.0



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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 7:42:35 pm

well yes sure, but a lot of the stuff a lot of people think is very wrong with this software would have been the same even if they had held off to quash the rampant bugs.

It would be interesting to know what they think of the sales and usage of this thing internally - whether they will feel in hindsight that they did in fact get it strategically wrong.

If as you say this software is a driver for hardware - which being OSX only, it certainly is - if the prosumer market say, aren't biting in anything like the volume they might have hoped, well, then, it would be pretty interesting to see if Apple, in the updates to november, are going to give some feature re-introduction sops to the hardware market they had locked up before this whole mess started.... a re-introduction of some noteworthy element or other from FCP7, maybe not the source monitor, but something?
that would be a signal. And well, a total lack of what I've described would be a bit of a signal too mind you.


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Chris HarlanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 7:57:13 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple mentioned "summer" so that would give them one more week.
Several people are saying they've heard about a couple of updates between now and November.
Apparently lots of developers are waiting for APIs. I believe RedGiant and others have said as much as well."


Actually, the APIs weren't about a summer deadline. From the FAQ:

We will release a set of APIs in the next few weeks so that third-party developers can access the next-generation XML in Final Cut Pro X.


How long ago was the FAQ published? Two months? So, it ain't like they got a week to go. It's more like they are six weeks behind.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:22:25 pm

Software development behind schedule after a controversial release?

No way.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:36:08 pm

I'm not sure I understand, what has the controversial nature of the release have to do with the API's being MIA?

The API's had to have been in development throughout the course of development. When apple released the statement, they said weeks, and well, its months.

Why are we putting the delays down to the controversial reaction to the software release?


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:23:55 pm

[Chris Harlan] "How long ago was the FAQ published? Two months? So, it ain't like they got a week to go. It's more like they are six weeks behind."

Yes they're very far behind based on the FAQ implications and that has me concerned. I don't think they're ducking it, I think they're finding far more problems then they expected. The thing about APIs is that they really have to be locked down for a very long time or you end up breaking compatibility as you try to fix things.



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Chris HarlanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:51:42 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't think they're ducking it, I think they're finding far more problems then they expected."

I can see that. It suppose it might even be taken as a sign that they've realized a major re-think is in order. Of course, it could also be seen as "yawn." What people inside Apple are probably saying about the FAQ currently is "See! That's why we never say anything. Because if we say something people expect us to hold to it." I understand that some folks think Apple's passive/aggressive non-comunications policies are quaint, but I find them totalitarian.


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Marvin HoldmanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:25:39 pm

"Few"

Apparently it means many things to many people.

As in... we may have lost a "few" customers in this FCPX transition thing. Transposing that ratio, they're still weeks ahead of schedule.

Marvin Holdman
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Marvin HoldmanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:41:09 pm

I really can't help but wonder if they are taking their time to try and decide which course to take with this product. Perhaps we'll see another MAJOR course change? Would certainly make sense if they are taking the "let's throw it out there and see what happens" approach to this product. That being said, I really wonder if some of the delays are simply them deciding if there is any future in this particular application?

Sure the framework is enticing, BUT they've sullied their credibility with their customers and the new ones that are coming on probably aren't going to have any more potential than they would have if they simply made this a iMovie Pro product. One would have to wonder why they didn't just put this out that as just that, and simply abandon their pro applications division completely? For most, a few of the features from FCPX incorporated in the existing iMovie would have provided much more enticement for the casual user to buy into. The thought that they can somehow "merge" the framework from iMovie/iPhoto/Garage Band into a "professional" product seems to be wishful thinking from some very naive decision makers.

Perhaps they are now thinking of EOL'ing FCPX? Going the route of Newton, Next and The Cube? Never widely accepted and quietly taken off the market? Some of the "awesome" parts of them re-appearing later in a more viable product? Actually, this kind of gives some hope.

Marvin Holdman
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phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
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Chris HarlanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 9:03:23 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "Going the route of Newton, Next and The Cube?"

To pick an off-topic nit, "NeXT" was not an Apple product, but a separate--and for a time rival--company whose OS, when ported to NeXTstep, became OSX after Apple acquired NeXT and required Steve Jobs. So, NeXT was hardly an abandoned mistake.

For what it is worth.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 12:05:39 am

neXt was a quite an amazing software platform too no? youtube watching jobs demo and delineate the market at the time is a really, really nice way to kill time.
It's mid-bottle vintage jobs.


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Chris HarlanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 12:44:09 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "neXt was a quite an amazing software platform too no? "

NeXT was amazing. I remember seeing it at the student union and thinking, now THAT's a computer! Couldn't afford it though. I remember they had little clips from Star Wars to demonstrate its video capabilities.


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Marvin HoldmanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 1:19:42 pm

Sorry, you are absolutely correct. I guess the point I was trying to make citing these examples is that each of them had some very good features that showed up in later products that eventually were a success, even though they were regarded as failures from the business side. Although Next wasn't an "Apple" product, I tend to lump it into Apple history because of Jobs association. I appreciate the specifics on it's history.

Marvin Holdman
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Oliver PetersRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:50:51 pm

Just to be clear, since the OP listed SmartSound's plug-in, understand that various add-ins to FCP "classic" used different hooks. If all FCP X exposes is a new public API for a modified XML, then it won't cover everything.

For example, "classic's" filters used both FxScript and FxPlug. DH's Loader connected via Apple Events in the OS. Anything that appeared in the import/export menu required a private deal between the developer and Apple. Audio control surfaces connected via MIDI and then later adoption of the EuCon protocol.

So, if Apple limits the hooks to the new XML and FxPlug, then a lot of the current tools will still require additional development after the update.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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T. PaytonRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 15, 2011 at 11:23:12 pm

Back to the original topic, it was mentioned in another forum that Apple held a meeting at IBC with some Apple resellers, but he was under a NDA and couldn't share details. He only mentioned something "good in the next few weeks."

See the post here.

------
T. Payton
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Andrew KimeryRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 7:12:22 am

I feel like there are multiple examples of a division w/in Apple over what FCP 10 is supposed to be. Whether it's the last minute hijacking of the Super Meet at NAB or the apparent cramming of an F1 engine into a go-kart that is FCP 10 (to steal a phrase from a fellow COW user) it just seems like there are two competing agendas at Apple right now and the product so far has been the very un-Apple-like fiasco over the past few months.

It's come to light over the past few years that Apple likes to keep the teams lean and mean which means taking people off their current projects (such as FCP 10) and moving them onto higher priority projects (such as iOS) instead of hiring on more staff. Leopard was officially delayed to make sure the iPhone shipped on time and maybe Apple went to that well once too often w/FCP? Maybe someone thought FCP could coast a little longer w/o a big update and when that assumption dissolved Apple realized they'd been caught w/their pants down.


-Andrew

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Marvin HoldmanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 3:10:21 pm

I think it's probably safe to say there have been at least a few "WTF" meetings about this in Cupertino and those usually bog a process.

Marvin Holdman
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phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
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Tim WilsonRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 9:12:26 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "I think it's probably safe to say there have been at least a few "WTF" meetings about this in Cupertino..."


You have read this a while back, a reference to an article in Forbes (subscription only, but here via Business Insider.

In response to the MobileMe flop, Steve Jobs...gathered the troops at the auditorium Apple uses on its campus to do demos of small products for the press.

He asked the team what MobileMe was supposed to do. Someone answered, and Jobs said to that person (and everyone else), "So why the f^ck doesn't it do that?"

He continued, "You've tarnished Apple's reputation ... You should hate each other for having let each other down ..."


Then, Steve's email on the subject, via Ars Technica:

Team,

The launch of MobileMe was not our finest hour. There are several things we could have done better:

– MobileMe was simply not up to Apple's standards – it clearly needed more time and testing.


etc. etc.

For all anybody here knows, Steve might think that they knocked this out of the park and that we're all a bunch of whiners. I can imagine a similar response to the exponential amount of rage over iPhone 4's antenna...which still bites, and iPhone 4 is still the bestselling phone in history...but whenever anybody mentions a WTF moment inside the Infinite Loop, I recall MobileMe....


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Chris HarlanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 9:23:24 pm

[Tim Wilson] "For all anybody here knows, Steve might think that they knocked this out of the park and that we're all a bunch of whiners."

I emailed Steve Jobs a week after the NAB event and actually got one of those rare responses. FWIIW, here t is:

ME: There is a great deal of fear in the professional Final Cut Pro community, after last weeks demo, that they have been abandoned. In certain circles, it is bordering on panic. I'm certain that that is not what the demo meant to engender, but, unfortunately, it has.

SJ: The feedback we are getting from the Pro customers is very positive.


My gut tells me we are all in the antenna camp, though I guess I keep coming back here because I want us to be in the MobileMe camp.


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Tim WilsonRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 9:45:19 pm

[Chris Harlan] "SJ: The feedback we are getting from the Pro customers is very positive."

Wow, that's amazing. Thanks for sharing that, Chris.

It supports my theory from the beginning, that Apple's intent is to change markets more than serve them, and that they see this as something approaching a complete success.

Which is to say that they haven't abandoned the pro market in 2011, any more than they tried to kill it in 99. This is what they do. I'm sure that they ARE getting positive feedback from the pros they're talking to.

Which of course brings us back to Day One of this forum -- what Apple means by "pro" vs. what WE mean by pro, etc. -- but there you go.


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 9:51:00 pm

Don't forget this was post NAB but before the release.

I've only heard rumors but I heard Steve had a WTF moment after the release. That may not be so much about the product itself but how the release was handled.



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David Roth WeissRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 9:55:19 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I've only heard rumors but I heard Steve had a WTF moment after the release. That may not be so much about the product itself but how the release was handled."

If he didn't have a WTF moment then the state of his health is probably worse than we know.

David Roth Weiss
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David Roth WeissRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 16, 2011 at 9:51:50 pm

[Tim Wilson] " I'm sure that they ARE getting positive feedback from the pros they're talking to."

Well, according to Larry Jordan that's not entirely so. He's also written publicly that Apple completely ignored the constructive input he gave them.

David Roth Weiss
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David Weiss Productions, Inc.
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http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Producing Episodic TV with "24" Producer Michael Klick:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-1_Michael-Kl...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bobby MoscaRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 18, 2011 at 2:23:10 pm

So far, every Larry Jordan type big shot developer, instructor, "I-was-part-of-the-FinalCutPro-1.0-team" guy that I have seen or read has said the exact same thing... "They didn't take my advice." And it may be my imagination, but I think they aren't saying that they didn't take SOME advice, but they didn't take ANY of it. That's the vibe being given off, anyways.

In related news, new rumors on the Mac Pros are popping up... Again.

The sentiments on this thread reflect what my friends are saying: Surely the delay is a reflection of the hole they dug themselves, and the awareness that the more they put off the update, the better it has to be. (As we all know, this is paralyzingly to our ability to meet deadlines.) I've learned FCX and forced myself to put together a few shows with it. (It's rough. The bad cancels out the good, and then some.) But I am holding out hope. I just need a stable program with some missing features, and we're back in business. (Although, it would be nice to be able to author a DVD or BD in Lion. If I'm forced to buy Premeire just to get Encore, they lost me. I'm still on Studio 2, btw.)

I had a point... Oh, yeah... So, Apple is getting some grace from me. I'm not going to defend them because there simply isn't enough to defend. They've messed up, both with the message AND with the product. I'm going to just focus on my work and get better at what I do. When the update does come out, we'll take her for a twirl or two. The problem is, Apple has squandered a decade's work of building reputation and trust in a matter of months. They may only have one shot at this, and if what they say doesn't match what they do to near perfection, i might have to stop listening altogether.

Anyway, here's hoping. Cheers!


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Oliver PetersRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 18, 2011 at 2:49:16 pm

[Bobby Mosca] "But I am holding out hope. I just need a stable program with some missing features, and we're back in business."

Do you honestly believe Apple is going to put back in all the features you used in FCP 7? They have gone a completely different direction with FCP X. It's clear that they have no intention of playing the features game against the competitors. If they did, you would have seen FCP X effectively be an FCP 8 in design.

I personally expect to see very little that adds these features back in. I'm hoping for a more stable application that might at least make it functional in some cases. My guess is the only new features you'll see are an XML SDK (no actual I/O additions), multicam and better handling of split edits and audio mixing. Beyond that - nada. And probably even all that won't be in this coming update.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bobby MoscaRe: FCP X Update - When?
by on Sep 18, 2011 at 10:00:50 pm

"Do you honestly believe Apple is going to put back in all the features you used in FCP 7?"

All the features I use, or all the features you use? I don't use all that is offered, by a long shot, and I suspect far less than most on here. So yeah, I think they could, or at least enough to make the editor efficient to work with.


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