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Why does Premiere suck so bad??

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Zack YoshyaroWhy does Premiere suck so bad??
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:09:12 pm

Why does premieres media encoder suck so bad? It is by far the worst flash encoder I've ever used. I have tweaked every setting possible, but unless you max out the bitrate, the thing looks like absolute crap. So many, many artifacts.

In camtasia, I can export the same video at a VASTLY lower bitrate and it comes out fine. The artifact are essentially non-existent.

Is there a way around this? Is this just me? Am I doomed to edit in premiere, wait the ages it takes to export as avi, wmv, etc.. then import into camtasia or flash just to convert it?

This is driving me insane.


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Jeff Burford How about some Constructive Subject Titles ???
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:15:14 pm

Wish you luck, just hate seeing s....d Subject Titles like this all the time, no other way to professionally request assistance?


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Zack YoshyaroRe: How about some Constructive Subject Titles ???
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:34:03 pm

I'm taking the fox new approach. Hyperbolic title for views.

I tried a nice simple post about a month back, but that got me nothing.



Your post is as useful as my title.


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Dan Herrmannwhat does premiere suck
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:40:32 pm

Adobe's problem is that the list a minimum system requirement that is for basic DV editing.
when editors try and use their program on inferior hardware and start messing with multiple stream or use HD content they run into problems everytime.
I edit on a dual quad-core xeon machine with 16GB of ram and a high end video card.
I never have had a crash that I can recall.
I also do not have other programs trhat are not compatible with Premiere on the same machine.
People love Final Cut and their Macs because final cut was made for the Mac.




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Zack YoshyaroRe: what does premiere suck
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 4:50:40 pm

I have no problems with crashing. I edit on a Dual-core, 2.53GHz, 4 GB ram, mid-level video card.

I'm not editing HD content. I'm not doing giant projects. I'm editing a 640x480 video from a frame grabber.


My post is about Adobe Media Encoder's non-ability to export as a FLV. Crashing is not an issue.





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Alan LloydFlash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:34:27 pm

What sort of Camtasia output are you editing and Flash encoding? File format? Bitrate? Project settings? Encode settings?

If you don't start with good material you won't end up with it.

And your original post title has nothing to do with Premiere, it has to do with Adobe Media Encoder.


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Vince BecquiotRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 6:05:55 pm

Flv is no where near the best format out there. In fact many of us now us h.264 from Sorenson (so does Youtube).

As far as comparing Premiere's output to Camtasia, are you comparing with an uncompressed output from Camtasia brought into Premiere. Recompressing a Camtasia export is going to get ugly.

Are we also talking about the same type of motion?

Remember, compressing screen capture is easy, there is usually very little motion on screen so all the encoder has to do is repeat most of the pixels on every frame to save space. When it comes to camera foorage and motion graphics, these days a minimum bitrate of 800-900 kb/s is becoming the norm for SD encoding.

Vince Becquiot

Kaptis Studios
San Francisco - Bay Area


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Zack YoshyaroRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 6:24:04 pm

I guess I should clear up exactly how I'm comparing the two. The camtasia outputs the AVI. I don't do anything else to the file. I can import it into premiere, then export it with AME to flash video, and it suddenly looks like crap. Or I can do the same thing with camtasias encoder and it looks just fine.

Same file. Same motion. That's what's confusing. I mean, they only change slides every few minutes, so it's mostly just a static image the whole time.

I'd like to use the h.264 codec, but these are all being delivered through a flash projector file that is set up to load FLVs..



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Zack YoshyaroRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 6:16:51 pm

What sort of Camtasia output are you editing and Flash encoding? File format? Bitrate? Project settings? Encode settings?

If you don't start with good material you won't end up with it.

And your original post title has nothing to do with Premiere, it has to do with Adobe Media Encoder.


Camtasia capture settings: AVI, 24fps, Techsmith screen capture codec.

The recording from camtasia is great. Nice and crisp. I would describe this as decent source material.

Camtasia's FLV encoding settings: 15fps, keyframe every 5 seconds, 13kbps. I have matched these exact settings with premiere and it looks absolutely like shit.



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Vince BecquiotRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 6:33:55 pm

I'm not sure what process/encoder is used in Camtesia (there are many different encoders out there). But I'm sure it's customized to take advantage of the low motion and sudden scene changes. Try really increasing the keyframes interval in your AME settings. 13 kb/s needs some drastic setting changes from standard type motion encoding.

Vince Becquiot

Kaptis Studios
San Francisco - Bay Area


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Zack YoshyaroRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 6:56:12 pm

Here's what it looks like after AME has touched it.




It doesn't look as terrible as I'm describing in the picture, but all of those little distortions are pulsing around the image constantly. Which makes it look awful..



I feel like I've tweaked every setting possible, but I just cant get it be be even close to clear with out extreme setting which yield a giant file..




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Vince BecquiotRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 8:20:02 pm

Those are typical compression artifacts. Again, keyframe interval I'm sure has a lot to do with it on the Camtasia side, so give that a shot.


Vince Becquiot

Kaptis Studios
San Francisco - Bay Area


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Zack YoshyaroRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 8:37:36 pm

I set the key frame everywhere from 1, all the way to 2000+..

I guess I'm screwed...


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Vince BecquiotRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 8:44:22 pm

You could get a copy or GSpot or Super to analyse the file and see how it was encoded as well.

Next is using h.264 instead.

Vince Becquiot

Kaptis Studios
San Francisco - Bay Area


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Jeff BrownRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 8:44:51 pm

Have you tried differing bitrates? (I might have missed that in your posts). Also, in CS3, there are 2 different FLV compressions: On2 and Sorenson. On2 has always worked better for me. I typically use a bitrate of 800 - 1600 Kbps, depending on the image size.

One question would be: why are you using FLV video at all if most of the content is slides? Would it be possible to use FLV audio-only with cue points to trigger still-image slides?

-jeff



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Alan LloydRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 9:52:01 pm

Why are you capturing 24 fps to begin with? Especially to go to 15 fps in your Flash encode?

There's simply no reason to do 24 fps for something like this, first off.

I do regular 720 x 480 DV, encode it at 320 x 240/350K in AME, and it works just fine, with real people on camera. To tell me a screencap won't work strains credulity. Then again, 13K is barely enough for tolerable audio, let alone video. Why this datarate? How are you delivering?

Also, I have seen strange things from Camtasia captures when some types of overlay are happening.



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Zack YoshyaroRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 11:25:57 pm

You could get a copy or GSpot or Super to analyse the file and see how it was encoded as well.

Next is using h.264 instead.


Ah! These might shed some light. I'll check them out.

Have you tried differing bitrates? (I might have missed that in your posts). Also, in CS3, there are 2 different FLV compressions: On2 and Sorenson. On2 has always worked better for me. I typically use a bitrate of 800 - 1600 Kbps, depending on the image size.


Yeah, I've tried various bitrates, and both sorenson and on2 codecs. They all produce similar results. Unless, of course, I slam the bitrate to the top, then yeah it looks fine.


One question would be: why are you using FLV video at all if most of the content is slides? Would it be possible to use FLV audio-only with cue points to trigger still-image slides?


FLV is the format that we're asked to deliver in. I guess the clients site is set up with them in mind.


Why are you capturing 24 fps to begin with? Especially to go to 15 fps in your Flash encode?

There's simply no reason to do 24 fps for something like this, first off.


You're absolutely right. It's normally set at 15 for frame grabs, the higher settings were from me trying to record an animation on-screen. My apologies.

I do regular 720 x 480 DV, encode it at 320 x 240/350K in AME, and it works just fine, with real people on camera. To tell me a screencap won't work strains credulity. Then again, 13K is barely enough for tolerable audio, let alone video. Why this datarate? How are you delivering?


Man, I completely agree, it's an awful data rate. But I'm a victim of employment. The client wants a specific size, fps, and data rate. They're being delivered as online content and hard media.

If this is an unfixable issue, what is the best format to export out of premiere with so I can later convert it with camtasia?



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Mike CohenRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Mar 31, 2010 at 11:58:25 pm

[Zack Yoshyaro] "The client wants a specific size, fps, and data rate."

For future reference, important information like the above would have been most helpful in the original post, and would have saved you from getting criticized for a vague question.

Granted, everyone at one time or another has posted something out of frustration only to realize later that they were reacting to emotion rather than being thoughtful.

Good luck.

Mike Cohen


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Fernando MolRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Apr 1, 2010 at 2:29:07 am

I had problems with AVI files generated from Camtasia. I captured them on the fly and saved as AVI.

The files had a fluid playback in Media Player, but when imported to Premiere or After Effects the frames were jumping or artifacts showed. I couldn't find a fix.

It's possible that Camtasia AVI files had a buggy codec, or maybe some settings should be tweak before you capture them.

Just sharing.

*Always share a link to your site and rate the posts. This is a free service for you and for us.


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Alan LloydRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Apr 1, 2010 at 4:01:57 am

[Fernando Mol] "I had problems with AVI files generated from Camtasia. I captured them on the fly and saved as AVI.

The files had a fluid playback in Media Player, but when imported to Premiere or After Effects the frames were jumping or artifacts showed. I couldn't find a fix.

It's possible that Camtasia AVI files had a buggy codec, or maybe some settings should be tweak before you capture them."



Likewise. I am not really a fan of Camtasia. It's useful enough for what it does - sort of. The real problem is, better solutions cost more.


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Fernando MolRe: Flash encoding in AME
by on Apr 1, 2010 at 4:35:07 am

I found that instead of the TSCC (the codec from Camtasia) you can use uncompressed full frames for the AVI file.

I just made a test and guess what? Works smootly.

*Always share a link to your site and rate the posts. This is a free service for you and for us.


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Tim KolbRe: why don't you include some more info?
by on Apr 1, 2010 at 3:08:29 am

What frame size are you outputting too?

I assume the file is 640x480 square pixel capture?

Give us some more information and less hyperbole.




TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Zack YoshyaroRe: why don't you include some more info?
by on Apr 1, 2010 at 5:47:58 pm


What frame size are you outputting too?
I assume the file is 640x480 square pixel capture?
Give us some more information and less hyperbole.


What more information do you need? I'm pretty sure I've outlined all of my settings previously (asside form pixels. You're right on the square pixel guess). 640x480.

No hyperbole. I stand by my current description of AME's amount of sucking.


I found that instead of the TSCC (the codec from Camtasia) you can use uncompressed full frames for the AVI file.

I just made a test and guess what? Works smootly.


Interesting. I'll check this out. I'd hate to record slide transitions uncompressed and end up with a massive file.. but if that's what has to be done.. I'll test all of the available codecs and see if any of the others make a difference. Thanks for the tip!!


Likewise. I am not really a fan of Camtasia. It's useful enough for what it does - sort of. The real problem is, better solutions cost more.


I'm not super opposed to spending more if it will make my life easier. Camtasia was just the first program we found that was actually semi-usable. Do you have any suggestions for other programs?






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Alan LloydRe: why don't you include some more info?
by on Apr 1, 2010 at 7:27:39 pm

[Zack Yoshyaro] "No hyperbole. I stand by my current description of AME's amount of sucking."

As I - and others - have already told you, if you start with a higher quality file, and use somewhat more forgiving settings, you'll end up with higher quality output. Your bitrate settings are simply too low for decent quality. I think at this point it's a management problem - as in, your management. From your description, they could use a bit of education on quality.

[Zack Yoshyaro] "
Interesting. I'll check this out. I'd hate to record slide transitions uncompressed and end up with a massive file.. but if that's what has to be done.. I'll test all of the available codecs and see if any of the others make a difference. Thanks for the tip!!"


If you're then encoding from that to a Flash file what's the difference?

[Zack Yoshyaro] "I'm not super opposed to spending more if it will make my life easier. Camtasia was just the first program we found that was actually semi-usable. Do you have any suggestions for other programs?"

The really expensive way would involve a high-quality scan converter recording to a digital tape or DDR, then using that file. Something tells me you're not eager to do that.



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Zack YoshyaroRe: why don't you include some more info?
by on Apr 2, 2010 at 4:39:29 am

[Guy who looks kind of like Harvey Feirstein in his pic]"As I - and others - have already told you, if you start with a higher quality file, and use somewhat more forgiving settings, you'll end up with higher quality output. Your bitrate settings are simply too low for decent quality. I think at this point it's a management problem - as in, your management. From your description, they could use a bit of education on quality.





Sigh. I hear what your saying. I do. What I'm trying to communicate is that the quality of the file that AME is outputting at the client specified settings is simply shit. Using these same settings while going through camtasia's encoder, OR even flash 8's media encoder, the results are perfectly acceptable. My frustration and confusion stems from this.

[Guy who looks kind of like Harvey Feirstein in his pic] "If you're then encoding from that to a Flash file what's the difference?"


Well, we tend to do all day sessions. All day being 10+ hours in certain cases. All that uncompressed data quickly starts to add up. So really it's just matter of convenience/laziness. Smaller files take less time to back up/move around.


Anyway, I'll hopefully be able to run some uncompressed tests tomorrow. Hopefully that will solve the problem.

Thank you to everyone for their input!











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Fernando MolRe: why don't you include some more info?
by on Apr 2, 2010 at 5:37:30 am

This are the Codecs Camtasia works with when creating AVI files:

Microsoft Video 1
Intel IYUV
Cinepak
TSCC
DivX 6.8
Uncompressed

As you can see, most of them are very old (the 90's).

I made some tests again with the TSCC and worked OK. I tested adding 1 keyframe every 30 frames and every 1 frame. Both worked, but I used short recordings at 15 fps.

Don't capture 24fps if you are going to use 15fps as a final. Capture either 15 or 30 fps. Also, flash projectors can play a variety of formats, h.264 too. No harm in make a version with it and send it to the guys are going to use it so they can do their own test.

One last thing. I have received request from clients giving very specific instructions on the compression they need. I always give a call to the person that actually is going to transmit the video (not the office guy that has troubles sending an attachment). You'll find that the request most of the time is not written in stone.

Maybe you can use a variable bit rate to improve your image quality without compromising file size. And I can tell you: the 13kbps are probably a misspelling. The first modem I had was 28kbps!

I have being using AME for a long time. It's not as complete as Squeeze, but if you know how to tweak the options it will never let you down.

Good luck with your tests.

*Always share a link to your site and rate the posts. This is a free service for you and for us.


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Alan LloydRe: why don't you include some more info?
by on Apr 2, 2010 at 6:02:54 am

I'm sure you think you're being witty and clever.

You're not.

Inflammatory and insulting, yes. Where a whole lot of people have tried to assist you.

You must be a regular peach to work with.


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