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ALEXA vs. RED?

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Pat McGowanALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 11, 2010 at 1:27:11 am

Anyone?


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 11, 2010 at 5:22:08 am

Since Alexa is not shipping yet don't you think this a little premature?



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 11, 2010 at 1:52:25 pm

Too early? I'd say it's never too early to share reliable information about new tech. I run a small shop that wants a big look and I can't afford to play around with 2 or 3 approaches. So if and when I do invest in either a RED or an ARRI this year I am going to need to do a ton of research.

The ARRI release site has some nice packaged reels plus a few clips from Hollywood DOPs that are very interesting.

However there is very little on the tech side. Given that RED EPIC has just released to existing RED customers and the ARRI has pre-launched I'd say this is a very good time to get the knowledge sharing going.

Isn't that why this forum exists and isn't that why you are a moderator here?


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Steve WargoRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jun 21, 2010 at 7:10:54 am

[gary adcock] "Since Alexa is not shipping yet don't you think this a little premature?"

Let's see. The RED fanatics were getting RED tattoos two years before ship date, which equates to 5 years before the camera actually worked properly (which I still don't buy).

I will be getting my Alexa tattoo in July.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .

Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jun 21, 2010 at 2:17:01 pm

I will be getting my Alexa tattoo in July.


Yeah, got mine last month at Cinegear.. It was more fun than the branding I got from an overheated f900



gary adcock
Studio37

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Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael BravinRe: ALEXA
by on Apr 11, 2010 at 3:47:50 pm

Pat

What sort of information where you looking for that does not appear on the ALEXA website http://www.arridigital.com/alexa ? I'd be happy to fill you in.


Michael Bravin
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc.


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 2:39:13 am

A side by side feature comparison versus RED EPIC would be good. Also, information regarding sensor upgrades etc.. Anything that makes the case for choosing the ARRI solution given that RED has the dominant market position and is releasing a 5K sensor whereas ARRI is releasing a 2K sensor. That kind of thing. More in-depth field stories citing real-world reasons for choosing ALEXA...

Yes, I know it's early in the game but things are moving at lightspeed.


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Tim KolbRe: ALEXA
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 8:07:36 am

[Pat McGowan] "given that RED has the dominant market position"

In what market?





TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 4:18:15 pm

What do you mean Tim? RED has a large installed base for digital video cams, ARRI does not. Or do they?



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gary adcockRe: ALEXA
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 1:09:38 pm

[Pat McGowan] "makes the case for choosing the ARRI solution given that RED has the dominant market position and is releasing a 5K sensor whereas ARRI is releasing a 2K sensor."

Well lets start there,
the Alexa sensor is 3.5K, thought that frame size in the first release of the camera will be limited to the Arriraw format. Currently on high end disk recorders can handle that format, but changes will come quickly to the others.

I am confident that there will be many side by side comparisons now that the camera has been launched and access to working models will be less stringent than the pre-release versions.

Having seen both Alexa and Epic models (don't forget Phantom Flex and Penelope) in the Last 2 days in my role as Tech Chair for the Dir. of Photography Conf. at NAB, I can assure you that I will be hands on with both.

Alexa is built and designed with the ergonomics considered as much as the imaging tools needed for mainstream production with diligence given to placement of camera controls for both the operator and camera assistant. The update to ArriRaw will be impressive, I have worked in Arri Raw from the D21 and the dynamic debayer that they will do incamera to output to ProRes internally.

I have seen and held the Epic Prototype and RED too has quite the camera, but i will not say more until the Wed announcement.

I am just as interested in the Alura Zooms announced. I am a big fan of Fujinon glass and I cannot wait to get my hands on one of those.

Its going to be a fun summer.








gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Fred JodryRe: ALEXA versus RED
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 2:59:02 pm

Pat, both cameras have plenty of resolution and at least reasonable sensitivity. After that, one`s a Panasonic and the other`s an Arri. The Arri Alexa attempts to take in colorimetry and half tones as close to film`s quality as possible. The Panasonic Red does not. Other than that, the differences between the cameras will mostly be dependent upon how your camera operators and parts suppliers and builders handle your business. For instance, I haven`t reviewed the viewfinders, you`ll have to, and in my case, my custom lenses builder guy won`t offer to make lenses with coatings matched to the colorimetry of the Red. "Film" or "high efficiency HEC" is more predictable and less odd, and he certainly doesn`t have to take extra orders from me!


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA versus RED
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 4:18:55 pm

Panasonic owns RED?


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 4:20:05 pm

Anxiously awaiting your reports Gary.


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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 5:41:25 pm

Alexa isn't out but D-21 is. I've been through tons of footage from both over the last several month. If you're after the picture quality it is Arri. If you want projects go faster through your shop it is currently RED One. There is a variety of software utilities making R3D workflow smooth. There isn't much to help ARRIRAW. In my estimate it's about three to six month until we see some relative software parity. Also R3D is relatively easy on storage but ARRIRAW needs truckloads of it. It is more expensive to shoot and post ARRIRAW. Very different markets.



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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 12, 2010 at 6:07:58 pm

According to pre-release info Alexa will be supporting ProRes encoded to SXS cards.


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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 12:58:43 pm

ProRes is good for jobs ending up on video. If go to the big screen you'd want RAW. ProRes is good as a dailies format and having a camera to output both "digital negative" and "digital dailies" speed things up considerably.


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 1:53:00 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "ProRes is good for jobs ending up on video"

Look, that is a short sited look so then you have not properly worked in ProRes 4444.

[Michael Aranyshev] "If go to the big screen you'd want RAW. "

So what about Avatar being shot on Sony 950s? what about all of the films shot on Genesis, Viper, f35s....

95% of the RED stuff I see never makes it to the big screen anyway.

You seem to want to bash everything about this, and you keep speaking as if yours is the only point of view. I see things differently. I do NOT own either camera and I work on D21s, RED, Phantom and SI cameras often.

Its a tool nothing more.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 2:15:40 pm

[gary adcock] "You seem to want to bash everything about this, and you keep speaking as if yours is the only point of view."

The fact RAW workflow is discussed, offered by manufacturers and used by post facilities shows it is not exclusively mine point of view.


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 3:52:40 pm

Are you guys fighting?

Pat McGowan
President, inMotion DVS Inc.
Ottawa, Canada
Sony PMW350K, Sony EX-3, Sony EX-1
Final Cut Pro (6 seats, CS5 (4 seats), C4D
Small-Tree GranitSTOR 32TB RAID


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 14, 2010 at 2:22:17 pm

[Pat McGowan] "Are you guys fighting? "

just different points of view


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael BravinRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 1:57:30 am

Michael

Apparently you arent at NAB. :-(

There is now REALTIME ARRIRAW Playback, and Debayer In GPU Assimilate, Invidia and Glue tools have new products.No hardware acceleration needed. We announced Pro Res DTE Direct to edit proxy and edit recording. This stuff changes at NAB, Workflow is realtime. And this is all before we have even shipped a camera.



Michael Bravin
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc.


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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 8:04:53 am

Playback isn't workflow. The ability to pull out of forty hours of footage exactly two hours that went into your cut is. With R3D you can do it. With ARRIRAW right now you cannot. As far as I know the required tools will be available some time this summer. By the way when Red One was out it didn't come with a clear workflow.


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Robert MonaghanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 4:23:56 am

I am working on a workflow for ARRIRAW (and Phantom Cine raw.)
You should be able to do a number of things in FCP very easily.
(Online/Offline conform, Realtime Color/EI/White Point changes, and ARRIRAW playback.)

I am going to try to have a version ready for the Alexa release.

bob.

Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United States

tel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998

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Steve WargoRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jun 21, 2010 at 7:18:27 am

[Michael Bravin] "And this is all before we have even shipped a camera"

So, what you're saying, Michael, is that ARRI will actually present a camera that is ready to go to work as opposed to releasing a prototype on build 1 that will take years (Build 24)to never actually finish. Hmmmm

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .

Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards


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Fred JodryRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jun 21, 2010 at 6:25:20 pm

Fortunately Steve, it looks like Alexa`s going to become deservingly a relatively unmoving item of engineering while the software brings most changes. Arri`s going to feel a little loopy when some new customers try to hook up 5 or 10 Alexas in parallel on a live mixing board while others try to upgrade their D20 or D21 into an Alexa. I can just see all those Alexa camera bodies drying their enamel paint in ARRI Manufacturing`s driveway while they wait for the decreasing volcano dust to mercifully let them restart making circuit boards and those little layer cards. -And I can just hear your sigh of relief when you can slow or stop buying those annoying Sony cables.

[Michael Bravin] "And this is all before we have even shipped a camera"
So, what you're saying, Michael, is that ARRI will actually present a camera that is ready to go to work as opposed to releasing a prototype on build 1 that will take years (Build 24)to never actually finish. Hmmmm
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!



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Steve WargoRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jun 24, 2010 at 9:11:05 am

RED fanboys turn my stomach.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .

Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards


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Michael YoungRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jan 17, 2012 at 11:16:03 pm

James Cameron- RED fanboy


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Steve WargoRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Jan 20, 2012 at 5:54:08 pm

There are RED users - James Cameron, Peter Jackson and many more

There are RED fanboys - Pathetic individuals who have a propensity to talk how great RED is while constsntly telling us that everything else is junk. Most RED fanboys are not camera owners, just people who are interested in talk, talk, talk. I am completely sick of bashers.

Now that it's January 2012, we're seeing many episodic TV programs shoot an Alexa and Sony buy very few on RED. Why is that? Desperate Housewive switched to Alexa for their 8th and last season from 35mm.

Some of the most beautiful footage on television is the TV show Grimm. The first night that show was on, my wife, "Wow. I'll bet they shot that on an Alexa". Even she can tell the difference. And while I'm talking about her, When we sat down in the theater to watch "District 9" and "The Book of Eli", she said "What piece of crap was this shot on?" Both shot on RED.

Yeah, RED shook the industry for sure but ARRI rocked the world.

Me? I own a SONY F3. It's a great tool. It works. It makes beautiful pictures and it makes money. End of story.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .

Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 1:02:51 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "If you're after the picture quality it is Arri. If you want projects go faster through your shop it is currently RED One."

I have to disagree Michael.
With the D-21 you are able to handle the RAW content output of the camera into a variety of devices, Stwo, Codex and Clipster with many of the finishing tools all handle ARRIRAW and with the GlueTools plugin on the Mac IMHO I believe the workflow to be simpler than handling R3D files for many people.
On the other hand, with the D21 there still exists a straight forward simple DPX or HDSR workflow for those people wanting to merge into existing workflows possible.

"There is a variety of software utilities making R3D workflow smooth. There isn't much to help ARRIRAW. "
Commitment to a RAW workflow for ARRIRAW requires no more effort than working in R3Ds, are there more "roll your own tools" yes, thats because Arri made a choice before RED was released to fit into the known, existing workflows that were being used for tools at that level.


"Also R3D is relatively easy on storage but ARRIRAW needs truckloads of it. It is more expensive to shoot and post ARRIRAW. Very different markets. "

Storage is cheap- so skip that argument.

For someone that is committed to a RAW workflow I find no difference in the cost of handling R3Ds vs ARRIRAW


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 1:27:21 pm

[gary adcock] "Storage is cheap- so skip that argument. "

Sure. Just calculate how long will it take to load 40TB of ARRIRAW's to your grading suite array vs. how long will it take to load 4TB of R3D. And right now you must have all the footage online before finishing tools you mention can be used.

Again, I'm talking about what we have right now. In three months Pomfort will release Silverstack 2.0, hopefully.

[gary adcock] "Arri made a choice before RED was released to fit into the known, existing workflows"

R3D fits into the existing DPX workflow just fine.


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 1:45:29 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "R3D fits into the existing DPX workflow just fine."
Never said that it didn't.
But at the time that the originial D20 was announced and shipping Red was not yet a product so it was designed with the existing tools at hand. That world has changed in 5 years.

"Just calculate how long will it take to load 40TB of ARRIRAW's to your grading suite array vs. how long will it take to load 4TB of R3D."
I think a 10-1 difference between the Raw formats is a bit much, my numbers indicate the it is closer to a 3:1 size difference between the 2, but yes the older format is larger, but if we are talking Scratch, Nucoda, Baselight those tools are geared to be handling that much data regularly.

With tools from Stwo, Codex, Cilpster or Rave HD you take the ARRIRAW capture directly into the grading suite and use the device as ONLINE and there is no loading as you are accessing the material in the same manner as it was shot.

I am Acquisition Agnostic,

There is not just one way to do these workflows, but I am here at NAB and I see the buzz around Alexa and Epic ( which will be shown on Wed) I will be in the 3Ds room at the RedUser Event Wed because I was part of a Technology demo shoot with some of the first MX models that OffHollywood has.

Its all about the tools, and like many RED users, ARRIRAW users will have to suffer some pain somewhere but I am not worried.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 2:09:40 pm

Gary, the issue is so simple it probably gets below the radar. With R3D you can feed an EDL to a simple utility that will pull all the shots used out of any number of attached disks and nicely put it in a single folder. With ARRIRAW there is no such thing.


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 3:57:14 pm

I would amazed if there were not 3rd party utilities available by summer for the ALEXA workflow. If this camera is a popular as I think it will be this will not be an issue. Anyone?

Pat McGowan
President, inMotion DVS Inc.
Ottawa, Canada
Sony PMW350K, Sony EX-3, Sony EX-1
Final Cut Pro (6 seats, CS5 (4 seats), C4D
Small-Tree GranitSTOR 32TB RAID


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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 5:19:06 pm

Didn't I wrote there will be such an utility around this summer right in this thread and even mentioned its name?

:)


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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 5:23:11 pm

So, back to my original post - ALEXA vs. RED EPIC?? Pros and Cons from a technical, aesthetic and marketing perspective....

Pat McGowan
President, inMotion DVS Inc.
Ottawa, Canada
Sony PMW350K, Sony EX-3, Sony EX-1
Final Cut Pro (6 seats, CS5 (4 seats), C4D
Small-Tree GranitSTOR 32TB RAID


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Fred JodryRe: ALEXA vs. RED?the proof is in the edit
by on Apr 13, 2010 at 7:23:17 pm

Pat, do this:
buy all the cables and software you need to use and edit the digital Arri. Now, (optionally) buy all the cables and software you need to use and edit a Red. (I say optionally, I`m a little prejudiced on this one.)
do this:
Look- at- the- stuff. You don`t have to ask many more questions. If you can`t get one or the other, you already have your answer for the present months. You have just spent less than $5,000 and already have the answer within pretty good reasons, mostly better reasons than we can give you. You haven`t bought the big expensive thing, the camera, and you haven`t bought the littlest things, so no distraction.
now look at this:
CreativeCow.Net...RedCamera..."THE END OF THE WORLD (as we know it) IS HERE!" (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/davinci/resolve/) Here we are looking at a beautiful new Resolve, DaVinci color corrector console. Just what a RED needs. I wouldn`t mind if someone put one in my hands, you neither. But do you know what? A RED needs one, it lives on one, it can`t do without one. You can`t take your hands off it! Computers (machines) are cheap, people are cheap, but when you put them together and make them editors, they`re expensive. [Michael Aranyshev] said you`d be in a pinch if you have to edit 40 GB of original takes into 2 GB of sendoff. He also considered this his and your average. If you are recording the mating habits of a Humming Bird, or maybe your usual nightmare wedding job, you`d starve to death in your own business. That`s why I wouldn`t be caught dead using an Arri digital nor my own equipment for this. Nor would I do these for a living. Just to make fun of that inefficiency I`ll remind us all of the days when we used to put some shows on the air by multiplaning a single camera and having a stage, a black curtain, and lighting in front of us, another stage and black curtain and lighting behind us, and a titles- roller too. Shows or acts had to set up or break down behind the curtains with the lights still off, the audience if any had to turn their chairs around at the change, but it worked "real time", on time. When I started working in post- production it nauseated me a little that it averaged 3 hours of logged time to make 1 hour of sendoff time. Employees used to moan when they had to use more VPR2B VTRs and fewer VPR3 VTRs in the suites because some heads or a capstan belt went down and the VPR2Bs slowed the flow to worse than 3 hours per. Then I had to laugh at myself when I had to edit on my own equipment and it took me 8 hours to make one sendoff hour. One of my definitions of my own business is that I`d (in theory) fling and fire any of my employees or talent who`d be poorer and slower at making video than at making audio or Radio. Basically this was true. My TV production equipment almost never let me down, nor did it work as poorly as my Radio shows making equipment. I really don`t know how the Radio- only people make a get- by living on the junk. Now look at the color corrector again. One doesn`t mind having one, but I`ve never used one myself. When I shoot on my own cameras, whether the portable which can be run by just me, or the "studio", where the Camera Operator can drop the brightness control on the viewfinder then push red, green, and blue push buttons while observing the threshhold on the viewfinder tube while the camera is aimed at reference white, the results have been that I never brought back an approved take from a shoot that needed color or brightness correction at all, except for a little black level touch- up, which was not exactly hard to mix into an edit. Audio was harder than video. Naturally the man on the setup box would always say a few unwelcome words in the headphones of the man on the "studio" camera but we brought back perfection. I wish you the same luck. That`s why the colorimetry and halftones (and mixed results) of the Arri seem importantly better to me than the RED. In regular TV we think of it as good color versus unsatisfactory color, which requires re-do time, whether at the take, or whether in the edit.
now write down software, flow, and cabling/ storage notes that are presently available before going on:
Michael Brevin said, "There is now real- time Arriraw playback, and debayer in Gpu Assimilate, Invidia, and Glue tools have new products No hardware acceleration needed. We announced ProRes DTE Direct- to- edit proxy and edit recording." "Workflow is real- time." Oops, Michael, some of this ignores editing for playback. Personally I never put playback software on my editing computer. It gets in the way of the editing software, still we`ll take notes from a friendly salesman and go on. (Michael Aranyshev: "Playback isn`t workflow.")
Gary Adcock said,
"I have to disagree with Michael (Aranyshev).
With the D-21 you are able to handle the RAW content output of the camera into a variety of devices, Stwo, Codex and Clipster with many of the finishing tools all handle ARRIRAW and with the GlueTools plug- in on the Mac in my humble opinion I believe the workflow to be simpler than handling R3D files for many people." (etc)
Gary too:
"[Michael Aranyshev] "R3D fits into the existing DPX workflow just fine."
Never said that it didn't.
But at the time that the originial D20 was announced and shipping Red was not yet a product so it was designed with the existing tools at hand. That world has changed in 5 years.

"Just calculate how long will it take to load 40TB of ARRIRAW's to your grading suite array vs. how long will it take to load 4TB of R3D."
I think a 10-1 difference between the Raw formats is a bit much, my numbers indicate the it is closer to a 3:1 size difference between the 2, but yes the older format is larger, but if we are talking Scratch, Nucoda, Baselight those tools are geared to be handling that much data regularly.

With tools from Stwo, Codex, Cilpster or Rave HD you take the ARRIRAW capture directly into the grading suite and use the device as ONLINE and there is no loading as you are accessing the material in the same manner as it was shot.

I am Acquisition Agnostic,

There is not just one way to do these workflows, but I am here at NAB and I see the buzz around Alexa and Epic ( which will be shown on Wed) I will be in the 3Ds room at the RedUser Event Wed because I was part of a Technology demo shoot with some of the first MX models that OffHollywood has.

Its all about the tools, and like many RED users, ARRIRAW users will have to suffer some pain somewhere but I am not worried.

gary adcock"

Pat, I think of data size the way a Broadcaster does. One gets accustomed to taking a reel off a machine, sticking it all the way up one`s arm to the shoulder, and walking to the next machine or the storage box. There`s also loading some of the data directly. To repeat Gary yet again, WITH TOOLS FROM stwo, codex, clipster OR rave hd YOU CAN TAKE THE arriraw CAPTURE DIRECTLY INTO THE THE GRADING SUITE AND USE THE DEVICE AS online AND THERE IS NO LOADING AS YOU ARE ACCESSING THE MATERIAL IN THE SAME MANNER AS IT WAS SHOT. Personally, Raw Audio Video Editing sounds like an improvement when you`re reaching for "effects quality", even though I haven`t tried it. Storage isn`t no cost but it looks like lunch dimes compared to editing corrections. Albert Einstein said, "Technicians (Engineers- sic?) fix problems, Geniuses prevent them." If your color corrections and levels are harder and more common to fix than your audio problems, then your production workflow has certainly failed the Fred test.



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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 14, 2010 at 2:34:34 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "With ARRIRAW there is no such thing."

have you worked with the current GlueTools ARRI plug in workflow that allows for direct playback of ARRIRaw inside of Quicktime. With R3D files you still need to have the the QT wrapper to open in QT.

ARRIRAW has been supported on the highend tools of awhile. I have worked in ARRIRAW as long as I have worked in R3D. The difference was there were not as many D21's to work with.

The GlueTools ARRIRAW conform tool for FCP is even being updated for the Alexa release and will allow full control of the codec within FCP, and this is something that cannot be done with R3D files with out going into Color or out of FCP into another app.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I like them both and I am lucky enough to friends with the key people in both camps. I do have extensive time working in RAW and I see advantages to both systems depending on your workflow and needs.

I am all about choices.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 14, 2010 at 5:18:05 pm

Gary, are you seriously suggesting to cut a longform with the original footage from either RED One or D-21?

The GlueTools ARRIRAW conform tool for FCP is even being updated for the Alexa release and will allow full control of the codec within FCP, and this is something that cannot be done with R3D files with out going into Color or out of FCP into another app.

I get D-21 from s.two DFR. It is RAW in DPX wrapper. Robert Monaghan explicitly refused to support this format in either ARRIRAW Toolkit or Cineon/DPX Toolkit. But that's not the point. I'm talking about pulling out exactly the frames that went into the cut from the back up storage. There is a choice of tools for R3D right now. There is one promised to be released this summer for D-21.

OK, forget R3D and ARRIRAW. Let's talk about regular RGB DPX. Let's say you have a film edited and scanned, ready for grading or graded already. Then you have a trailer too. How would you pull the 3,000 frames used in the trailer out of 180,000 that makes your film? What software?


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29:01 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Gary, are you seriously suggesting to cut a longform with the original footage from either RED One or D-21?"

Hell No.
I do mostly commercial and corporate work and I do have a couple of clients that insist on working natively at max rez. (one long before it was truly feasible on mac or linux)

"I get D-21 from s.two DFR. It is RAW in DPX wrapper. Robert Monaghan explicitly refused to support this format in either ARRIRAW Toolkit or Cineon/DPX Toolkit."

That was nearly 2 years ago, according to the current release of the ARRIRaw Plug in.

S-Two makes a line of equipment that records ARRIRAW data from the ARRIFLEX D-21 cameras.
Currently, the image data is saved as specially encoded DPX Frames. While these frames are
legal DPX frames, the ARRIRAW image data needs to be decoded from these files. This Toolkit
provides a conversion tool that will generate a new set of ARI files from the S-Two DPX frames.
The STwoARRIConvert.app is located in the Applications/Glue Tools folder on your Macintosh. It
is installed long with the rest of the toolkit. To start the application, doubleclick on the
STwoARRIConvert icon.


I have used it a number of time without issue on the S.two Dmag system. I am going to be doing a project on the OB1 in a few weeks, but I do not expect any issues.

"How would you pull the 3,000 frames used in the trailer out of 180,000 that makes your film? What software?"

that trailer is the length of many of my projects

But Scratch, Baselight, Nucoda, Lustre, Pablo all have the ability to handle a properly conformed xml cut list this is done all the time and has been for a while now. Handling that I/O process is having, maintaining and continually updating the reel, camera, take, frame info on while it was being edited- it is not now and never been an "automated" process.

None of these tools are considered affordable by any stretch of ones imagination.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 15, 2010 at 1:14:08 pm

This Toolkit provides a conversion tool that will generate a new set of ARI files from the S-Two DPX frames.

And double the required storage. I'm happy with Robert's Cineon/DPX Toolkit but I don't have any need for ARRIRAW Toolkit right now. Pomfort Silverstack will chew through a day's worth of s.two footage overnight just fine giving me a nice batch of quicktime dailies with all metadata embedded. When the cut is finished a simple CMX3600 EDL is sent to a colorist along with the original DPX's. The problem is clients buy grading hours not copying-every-take-to-the-grading-station-array hours and moving-files-around hours. That's why I have to pull the shots out. Just like the do with camera negative.


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Robert MonaghanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 4:39:19 am

Hi Michael,

After doing some reading of this thread, it appears that you are a bit a bit out of the loop on some of the products out there. Understandable, as you need to have a workflow that is solid.

- S.Two has yet to support ARRIRAW v3.0 headers. (This is a big deal.. I have been told that they are completing support for this new file format.)
- Codex and Keisoku Giken do support ARI files, and should also support v3.0 before the Alexa is released.
- Several vendors support ARRIRAW now.

I have been building a brand new suite to tools to retrofit Final Cut Pro to do a proper conform. This is regardless of the image format. The tool is designed to work with DPX frames, as well as ARRIRAW and Phantom Cine files.

Specifically for ARRIRAW (and eventually Phantom Cine files) you can apply ARRI's color science to a ProRes movie, to do Exposure and Color Temperature adjustments
---- without Rendering ----
Once you have your choices are made, you can quickly conform to the ARRIRAW files, and have the changes preserved. (The software will even update the ARRIRAW v3.0 file with the new changes.
We have also added the ability to use CDL as well as 1D,3x1D and 3D LUTs on the timeline, too.

I've worked closely with ARRI for over a year to get this built. It will make an ARRI workflow as easy as a ProRes only workflow, but permits the same powerful image manipulation capabilities as RAW.

I hope to have the tool available for the end of June.

A Quick Question..
I know for a fact that 2K DPX is exactly the same data size as 2K ARRIRAW. So if you were to do 2k DPXs, wouldn't your data requirements be the same if you converted your R3D footage to DPX?

bob..



Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
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tel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998

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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 9:40:58 am

[Robert Monaghan] "After doing some reading of this thread, it appears that you are a bit a bit out of the loop on some of the products out there. Understandable, as you need to have a workflow that is solid. "

We are not in the camera rental business. We edit, create VFX and grade. We don't pick a recorder. We work with whatever production hired.

[Robert Monaghan] "I have been building a brand new suite to tools to retrofit Final Cut Pro to do a proper conform. This is regardless of the image format. The tool is designed to work with DPX frames, as well as ARRIRAW and Phantom Cine files. "

That's great news. With all its shortcomings FCP will beat any high end software at simple task like comparing an offline cut to the scans assembly. If FCP could actually move DPX around like it can move QT Movies that would save weeks of time.


[Robert Monaghan] "A Quick Question..
I know for a fact that 2K DPX is exactly the same data size as 2K ARRIRAW. So if you were to do 2k DPXs, wouldn't your data requirements be the same if you converted your R3D footage to DPX? "


Only the footage, that goes into the cut gets converted. That's no more than 2TB. As for converting vs working native it is good grading and compositing tools start to support RAW workflow but if I start sending untrimmed takes to the VFX guys they seen will go on strike.

Look, there is some misunderstanding here and I believe it is becvause we don't specify what kind of projects we are talking about. If it is a 30 sec TV spot with 20 minutes of source footage it will fly through any facility at full speed no matter what's the source format. If it is a feature film where footage comes in chunks over several weeks on slow external drives, takes tons of storage space and are not required for any work for month until the picture is locked managing files becomes a serious task.

Let's say you have an editing seat and a grading seat. Both have good DAS arrays, fast and big. Where do you copy the footage coming from the set? You don't. Because it will interfere with whatever current work is going on. You make a "workprint" and give it to your editor. You back up your transfer disk to LTO. And you keep your transfer disk until the picture is locked and it is time to "cut the negative". That's where you need a conform utility.




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Robert MonaghanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 2:46:14 pm

So, if you are only converting the necessary R3Ds to DPX that are being used in your project, you would still have a project the same size as ARRIRAW.

:)

What you describe sounds like a typical of a production. But as soon as you take your select-edit and covert it to DPX, you are using the same amount of space as your ARRIRAW select-edit. 2k RGB DPX is 10 to 12 megs, and 2k ARRIRAW is 9.5 Megs. The DPX frame has its color/EI levels and other info "Baked in", where the ARRIRAW can still be reconfigured to look different. (Realtime, too, as the imagery isn't compressed.)

Anyways, every facility has their own workflow. Yours is no exception. I don't doubt that before long, you will find a sophisticated SAN system that is inexpensive for what it does. Disk Space is really cheap these days -- and it is getting cheaper by the hour. I bought a used Apple 7TB X-Raid for $2000 USD - this is pretty amazing to me! I could network it between a handful of test systems and access the data. Its old and slow. But it gets the job done for a few thousand dollars. Not a production worthy setup, but it does allow me to simulate SAN environments.

I am really really curious to get some feedback. Drop me a note. I will show you what I am building.

bob..



Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United States

tel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998

http://www.gluetools.com


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Michael AranyshevRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 22, 2010 at 6:33:59 am

[Robert Monaghan] "So, if you are only converting the necessary R3Ds to DPX that are being used in your project, you would still have a project the same size as ARRIRAW. "

You are right of course, but the irony is the project size is roughly the same even if I don't convert R3D to DPX before grading. There is no way to trim R3D. Well, The Foundry announced Storm but we haven't tried it yet.

We aren't committed 100% to either pre-debayer or native. We tried both and there is no clear winner. Our colorist is happy to have extra bits but too often there is just noise in those bits.


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Nigel ThompsonRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 25, 2010 at 3:15:32 pm

WOW:

This thread just says to me i need to think long and hard.

On hearing and seeing the Alexa i was really intrigued. I do mostly work for Television. Ads, Music videos, broadcast design, stuff like that. I've been using a RED ONE for about a year and a half now and i love it to death, it has helped raise the bar with my work in so many ways it has been unimaginable. I can do things my P2 & Letus could never do.




(our first RED shoot)

NOW with the Alexa going directly to prores and the Alexa having a 3.5K sensor (which is plenty res if you ask me)and 13 efin stops or DR, it puts me in a kind of tail spin.
AND because of the RED i've been in negotiations to do 2 full length features. The ArriRAW option can be adopted (on an as needed basis)for the features.

My only thing is the price tag of 50K euro, which i do think is a great price but for us in the Caribbean a bit of a stretch.

No i don't own a RED we rent it but its part of our mainstay these days. But i need to make a decision so that we can keep more money in house rather than spending it on rentals

Tough choice. Need some advice and thoughts

And i know there are 2 other versions of the Alexa due out, what are the features of those, sensor wise etc etc.?

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
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Robert MonaghanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on Apr 25, 2010 at 3:30:22 pm

Something to consider:
Green Screen compositing with existing Digital Camera technology requires a fair bit of work after the shoot. Some people ran into problems with low-light subjects and trying to pull a clean key. Judging from what I have seen, this won't be the case with the Alexa. Depending upon the shots that you have to take, the Alexa *could* save you man-hours as far a compositing is concerned.

Naturally, there are tonnes of variables to take into account. But a tool that can deliver cleaner plates, means less time for an artist to do their compositing jobs.

Just a thought..

bob.


Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United States

tel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998

http://www.gluetools.com


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David BattistellaRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 7, 2010 at 3:49:06 pm



Great initial thread.

Getting back to the original question.

RED one changed things. It has obviously made ARRI rethink the D21 and present an offering that is more in line with what RED ONE customers got.

In terms of business, the single most interesting thing will be too see what happens this television shooting season. The ALEXA will be rolled out in june and I am guessing that many TV series will go with a PRORES 4444 workflow, knowing they get all the film style goodies, with a direct to edit, no transcoding, workflow. Thanks to RED, all of the data management for this type of pipeline is worked out. This means that the ALEXA could get a jump on EPIC fore series episodical work, reality TV, MOW and a large bulk of TV production just based on their reputation and PRORES module alone.

Strangely EPIC may end up being in the (perceptively more prestigious) feature film category because their workflow is more lightweight, established and better suited to offline online that the "current" ARRI offering.

DP's are going to like the ALEXA for the optical viewfinder and the WYSIWYG monitoring and look of PRORES 4444.

It's going to be interesting for sure, but ARRI has pointed this camera at the largest and growing section of the marketplace with "options" to shoot feature film.

With RED, the (soon to be rolled out) SCARLET program may have taken a hit with DSLR sales going through the roof and major series experimenting and doing full episodes.

EPIC, with an H.264 module can not match the ARRI SHOT>EDIT claim because as we all know the H.264 is most likely going to need a transcode.

Interesting times.

Strangely, POST may have a bigger impact on the outcome than the camera performance itself.


David


Peace


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Shawn LarkinRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 9, 2010 at 5:36:41 pm

I think the Alex workflow is about 1000x better for either TV episodic work or Film.

Why DeBayer at all?

The offline cutting of ProRes 4444 and linking back / onlining to Arri Raw is perhaps even easier and more efficient than how you must work with RED now.

And the fact that ProRes 4444 could be used as a mastering / filmout format makes it even better to offline from.

Anyhow, we'll see...


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 10, 2010 at 4:01:07 pm

[Shawn Larkin] "Why DeBayer at all? "

because you have too. ALL data on a CMOS sensor must be debayered so you can look at it.

"The offline cutting of ProRes 4444 and linking back / onlining to Arri Raw is perhaps even easier and more efficient than how you must work with RED now."

I would not consider the 12bit 4444 ProRes codec to be used as offline material for most people working in episodic, now if you need to access the larger image that is captured in ArriRaw that would be different.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 10, 2010 at 3:57:28 pm

[David Battistella] "It has obviously made ARRI rethink the D21 and present an offering that is more in line with what RED ONE customers got."

Note that Arri's D20 camera was a working camera with ArriRaw output and a 3.5K sensor a full year before the RedOne was announced.

"the ALEXA will be rolled out in june and I am guessing that many TV series will go with a PRORES 4444 workflow, knowing they get all the film style goodies, with a direct to edit, no transcoding, workflow."

That would be great if the vast majority of Episodic is cut on Avids not FCP. I can assure you that the Avid world in LA is all but stuck in the stone age when it comes to upgrades that may allow ProRes to function in that environment. At the Alexa Launch event, the whining about the lack of DnxHD support was deafening.

"ARRI has pointed this camera at the largest and growing section of the marketplace with "options" to shoot feature film. "


One other thing, other than Panasonic- what other camera company is delivering a professional level tapeless camera that does NOT rely on long GOP processing?
All of the cameras from Sony, JVC and even all of the DSLR's use long GOP encodes when compressing in camera.

IMHO Arri has placed Alexa squarely where old school workflows and tapeless intersect, a mainstream workhorse that fills a huge gap in the camera marketplace.

gary adcock
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David BattistellaRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 10, 2010 at 4:17:50 pm




Gary,

I think we pretty much agree. I still think that RED's workflow is brilliant. If the QT proxy thing was closer to RT or more reliable (as it might be in CS5) then it could really change the whole transcoding thing.

I hear you about the AVID whine. I have seen it on REDUSER. It's like AVID is the only editing software on earth.

David

Here is a rather long post I submitted at REDUSER a while back.


Bear with me, this is a long post

I’m writing this post in a public forum because I know the RED team reads this stuff and because I firmly believe that the improvement of REDCODE will have more of an impact than the further improvement of the cameras themselves. I also want to flush out what I don’t know or understand.

With all of this talk about new camera’s and the potential of new cameras, I wanted to take things in a different direction and back toward post production. The most attractive thing to me about the entire RED system is not the Camera. It’s not the RED One, it’s not the EPIC or the Scarlet, in fact it is not any of the camera offerings of RED. What I love about the RED system id REDCODE RAW.

The very idea of RED is fantastic. The whole system, as it is laid out is really intelligent and that is what attracted me and many of the other early adopters to it in the first place. The camera records REDCODE, then through a de-bayering process gives you access to the files through some RED software or you can watch your footage quickly and easily with QuickTime and you can (not really) edit those proxy files in Final Cut Pro, etc.

Shooting RAW gives RED the advantage over many systems, but the disadvantage has been a lack of REALTIME performance of REDCODE. This lack of performance has been the bane as well. The potential is still amazing.

I think that the single thing that will make RED a stronger force in all it’s marketplaces is the improvement and optimization of REDCODE on different platforms.

But REDCODE, the cornerstone of the program and the one that people rely on for the post production half of RED, is not real time. I know that there are those who will say that a scratch system plays back redcode real time but please hear me and read on before you jump all over me on this.

Imagine if the R3D debayering was realtime all the time?

Here is what I mean. I know that REDROCKET helps accomplish this but read on to see how great it could be if it was truly a realtime system.

The Scarlett -
If the fixed lens Scarlett was released with a realtime REDCODE codec I think that would make a much more attractive platform for people who want to go the DSLR route. You’d get RAW motion image in REALTIME instead of a baked in H264 codec that the current DSLR’s offer. Attractive and powerful tool.

RED ONE -
Jim has stated that with the release of EPIC they want to avoid the “beta” problems they faced with the release of the RED One program. I would ask RED to seriously not underestimate how much of those growing pains can be attributed directly toward workflow, post production, the lack of realtime performance and the fears producers had about shooting RED because the post tools were lagging so far behind the camera department. This forced people into complex workflows involving third party software did not match the elegance of the rest of the system.

Having a post background and owning a RED is a major advantage, but we can all agree that the early days of having to transcode footage using Apple compressor, creating DPX files, rendering out of REDCINE or REDALERT, all of which were clunky and unsophisticated ways of extracting images from RED and, dare I say, completely defeats the purpose of shooting RAW.

EPIC -
The high end future is bright, but I wonder about what bringing 5K into post will do and how that will tax existing storage and backup workflows. We all want the best image quality, more latitude and better images. I think there is a great need to push the optimization of REDCODE even further. Why? We are pretty capped out right now in terms of computer speeds, RAM and processors and even a REDROCKET card (a very great move forward) still taxes systems and puts things at their limit. I actually believe that this is exactly what the EPIC program and future camera offering should do.

What I’d like to see:

Release SCARLET with and out-of-the-box optimized REDCODE that is real time. It would be nice if the CORE of the Scarlett program was to give users all of the functionality of P2 or SRS data based cameras but with an optimized REDCODE that works the same way as these systems.
So I would shoot R3D files copy them to my system and edit in realtime in FCS, Premiere. Think of it as the high end DV codec of the future, offering RAW in Realtime would widen the use of the RED system.

For RED ONE and EPIC owners release a version of REDROCKET that works with all of our existing tools. This means that if I shoot on my REDONE and have a REDROCKET, I can edit R3D natively in FCP or premiere, etc. FCP has over a million legal licenses sold. The ability to interact directly with these applications in REAL TIME would be a giant leap forward.

Release CAMERA builds and post tool, QT updates less frequently and simultaneously.

Make transcoding OBSOLETE. I want to shoot the footage, back it up, edit the footage in R3D in FCP and finish it right there or send and XML and the r3d files to any high end system from discreet systems, Flame, Smoke, etc. to baslight, Apple Color, or any number of finishing solutions.
Transcoding to DPX is a major drawback. Do everything to encourace the use of R3D from shoot to finish. Make it the number one priority of the SDK program to ensure R3D implementation is as many systems as possible. Be on top of this as much as you are at releasing camera firmware builds.

Along with MAX mode, introduce a MIN mode that would allow for more realtime performance if I want it.

I know that these are things that many people have asked for but I think it is important to open up the discussion on what kinds of things would repair some of the myths and bad karma put out there about workflow.

As always I am sure this might spark debate. If you agree or want these features please include that too. I am hopeful the RED team will respond.

David


Peace


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Shawn LarkinRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 10, 2010 at 4:20:42 pm

Gary,

I think you misunderstood my post.

You HAVE TO DeBayer with RED. You do not with Alexa since the camera is doing this on the fly to ProRes. That = Better to me.

The ProRes 422 HQ and 4444 Codecs may be "overkill" for offline, but they are small enough file sizes to use in this fashion.

AND if you want to get hardcore, you make sure you have recorded RAW in sync with ProRes so you can online to that for film work. However, iMHO you don't need this much latitude if you work in ProRes 4444.

Regarding Avid, well, they now support QT and ProRes. But I doubt MC5 will be ubiquitous enough and I am sure old Avid Editors will not be able to jump on this bandwagon--especially in broadcast, which has overpaid for Avid boxes, which have a very simple Codec Workflow.

To me Alexa just makes more sense in post. But that's me.


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 10, 2010 at 5:08:31 pm

[Shawn Larkin] "You HAVE TO DeBayer with RED. You do not with Alexa since the camera is doing this on the fly to ProRes. "

Shawn.
you HAVE to debayer your image with Alexa also, just because Arri is doing it for you to record ProRes does not mean that the process is not happening. Just because it is not slapping you in the face does not mean that it is not happening somewhere in the process.

ALL CMOS imagers require some type of debayering to allow you to even see the image even DSLR's

"To me Alexa just makes more sense in post. But that's me."

I am a ProRes guy and have been from the beginning, I could not agree more.



gary adcock
Studio37
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Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
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http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Nigel ThompsonRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 11, 2010 at 11:22:19 am

Pro RES Is the biggest deciding Factor on the Alexa no doubt about it. It actually makes the camera an option the we all wish we had a while now. And you can easily rent a codex portable if your clients ask for that level of acquisition .... but how often will they.

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
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in the Caribbean
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Pat McGowanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 11, 2010 at 2:58:32 pm

which begs the question as to how many other vendors will be able to licence the Pro Res codec moving forward? Does ARRI have exclusivity?

Pat McGowan
President, inMotion DVS Inc.
Ottawa, Canada
Sony PMW350K, Sony EX-3, Sony EX-1
Final Cut Pro (6 seats, CS5 (4 seats), C4D
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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 12, 2010 at 1:19:30 pm

[Pat McGowan] "which begs the question as to how many other vendors will be able to licence the Pro Res codec moving forward? Does ARRI have exclusivity? "

AJA has been doing ProRes with apple for years now.
Matrox and DVS's Clipster now support ProRes capture and playback in hardware now also.

So no Arri does not have an exclusive.

gary adcock
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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 12, 2010 at 1:17:12 pm

[Nigel Thompson] "And you can easily rent a codex portable if your clients ask for that level of acquisition"

Nigel,
One note, currently the only Stwo's OB1 and Kg's UDR100 are supporting ArriRaw capture, the Codex handles all of the UC and DPX so those formats are OK.



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Nigel ThompsonRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 13, 2010 at 10:39:58 am

Thanks Gary:

thanks for the heads up. Lots of possibilities was also looking at the Onboard from codex. Which kind reminds me of a KiPro without the Pro REs and the all the varying inputs

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Robert MonaghanRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 13, 2010 at 11:23:56 am

I believe that Codex is also a ProRes Licensee. I can imagine that there will be some good things from them, before long.

A quick point about ARRIRAW vs. ProRes:
- ARRIRAW will let you change exposure, white point, have a greater dynamic range and assorted debayer algorithm choices. (No one debayer method is perfect for every type of shot.)

- The Alexa ProRes file has its exposure, whitepoint, and debayer mode "baked in". There is also only one debayer method available in the camera. ProRes is definitely quicker for those that find the shot is acceptable out of the camera. Lastly, the imagery is clamped to Rec709 video and Gamma ranges. You won't get a Log output to ProRes, as ProRes is already Rec709.

Each of these avenues has its purpose.

If I see one problem with Post users, it will be that people will want "Log" on a ProRes file. It will be like asking why their Mazda Miata can't haul large cargo trailer like a Mack Truck. One is designed for speed (and convenience), the other is designed for Maximum Dynamic Range.

Bob..


Robert Monaghan, CEO
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Nigel ThompsonRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 13, 2010 at 11:58:34 am

Well seeing that Apple have been smart enough to expand the Pro RES line. Lets see if they will drop a Pro RES RAW version sometime in the future which allows for all those RAW features we've grown to know and love.

Things are really getting exciting

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John HeagyRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 14, 2010 at 3:13:54 am

[Robert Monaghan] "people will want "Log" on a ProRes file"

10bit log? No need with ProRes 4x4's 12bit depth. You get the same latitude as 10bit log without a curve... pure linear goodness!

No 12lbs in a 10lb bag.

No denying the Debayer and exposure mapping flexibility though.

John Heagy
NFL Films



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David BattistellaRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 14, 2010 at 3:15:22 pm



Hey John,

To what extend has NFL Films used/adopted RED camera's. Does that workflow work in your pipeline?

When RED first came on the scene I thought it would be a great fit with NFL films, but in the high volume environment you guys work in maybe the Allexa looks more appealing?

David


Peace


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 17, 2010 at 2:04:08 pm

[David Battistella] "To what extend has NFL Films used/adopted RED camera's. Does that workflow work in your pipeline? "

I am going to chime in on this as John and I have talked about this issue a number of times.

While it seems like RED would be a good fit actually offers too many challenges and too many points of failure at this time to fit into the existing workflow that Films uses without offering anything substantially better than the 16mm film they are shooting now.

One of the biggest issues was the slow speed of the sensor prior to the MX versions, but since a good deal of the NFL Film crews operate as self contained shooters the data handling would be difficult at the least, not to mention the turnaround time for R3D conversions into something useable for both Avids and FCP.

I had a wonderful time hanging with Michael Bravin from Arri last week getting the inside scoop and I have got to say I think Arri has hit a home run with Alexa. This camera has been planned from the beginning as a shooters tool, as all Arri products are, but add to that design a logical ease of use side panel for camera assistants and a thorough camera through post workflow that can deliver, ProRes, Raw or uncompressed content in the usual manner.

You can tell that Alexa is from a company that has been building professional tools for over 90 years.

gary adcock
Studio37
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Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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David BattistellaRe: ALEXA vs. RED?
by on May 17, 2010 at 2:25:01 pm


Very eloquently put Gary. You make many very valid points and I think you are correct on many fronts. I thought initially RED would be a suitable replacement for 16mm film workflow, but in the case of NFL films it became obvious that it was not.

It will be nice to see the Alexa up close. I know that there are about 40 on order in Toronto.

David




Peace


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Fred JodryRe: ALEXA vs. RED?/ Demo, where?
by on May 20, 2010 at 2:29:04 pm

Is Arri`s Blauvelt, New York location preparing any Alexa demonstrations? Although e- mails to the Blauvelt location have been kindly answered they always ask Michael Bravin`s location to finish the answer. I`m just hoping that history doesn`t repeat itself like the Nagra- Ampex VPR5 where the salesman in the Nagra showroom in NYC told me that the reason why they didn`t have any VPR5s for sale in the NYC showroom was because no VPR5s had ever sold in the Eastern half of the USA in all of the past years. Maybe scheduling an Alexa demonstration if possible in the hotel Pennsylvania demo a couple of days ago (althought the notification e- mail came late) or a couple of other local haunts would be nice.


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gary adcockRe: ALEXA vs. RED?/ Demo, where?
by on May 20, 2010 at 2:52:55 pm

[Fred Jodry] "Is Arri`s Blauvelt, New York location preparing any Alexa demonstrations?"

Fred,
Be assured that they are preparing to roll out Alexa all over the world in one simultaneous launch.

My good friend Michael Bravin was kind enough to bring one of the Alexa demo bodies to Chicago last week for the Midwest Digital Cinema Society Alexa event presented in association with Fletcher Camera and Lens.

Right now there is a mad rush to complete the camera for delivery starting (I was told) in late June or early July. Currently all of the working units are onset for 2 upcoming films so working units will be scarce for the time being add to that, many of the key people at Arri were trapped in the US after NAB due to the volcano in iceland that is still reeking havoc on European air travel.

I also promise to do my best at keeping the herd at the Cow informed when I receive my unit for tests.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Michael BravinRe: ALEXA vs. RED?/ Demo, where?
by on May 20, 2010 at 3:43:54 pm

Fred

Of course we will have cameras EVERYWHERE, as soon as they start shipping. We have sold MANY ALEXA in NY and CSC will have inventory this summer (soon) and remember, ALEXA will not just be at the big traditional rental houses, we have many owner operators, production companies and smaller rental houses that have decided to buy ALEXA in the eastern US.

Of course Guenter and Juergen will have demo cameras in NY and I will be traveling around and on and on and on...BUT, we still have a bit of time before delivery, first group of deliveries in US is in mid June and we will have more cameras coming its so hard to be patient now that the world knows about ALEXA, but the wait will be worth it.. This will be the summer of ALEXA I promise!

Promise me you wont say "enough already" in the fall :-)

The next chance in US to see the camera will be at Cinegear where there will be 1 working camera. Stay tuned for more info about NY area demos on our ALEXA website http://www.arridigital.com, and here on the COW



Michael Bravin
ARRI, Inc.


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Daniel DávilaRe: ALEXA vs. RED?/ Demo, where?
by on May 23, 2010 at 3:38:20 pm

Just a thought:
RED has a 4k bayer sensor, Alexa has a 3,5k bayer sensor, for a 1080P product I think the resolution difference is irrelevant. But, as it´s been said, both can give you the raw data and, in some point, both need a debayer process.
On the RED, the camera itself does a quick (low quality) debayer realtime for monitoring purposes (and I think Alexa should do the same) but records the raw image for a later and better quality debayer on a computer. We know, even if you need a 1080P output, you must make a full res debayer from your 4K image to get the best possible quality. After the full res debayer, you scale down to 1080P. Even with a big machine, a full res debayer is a very time time consuming process IF you have´nt a REDROCKET card (a very powerful and expensive hardware). So, the basic idea is: the camera records raw and leave the big job for a powerful computer.
The same logic goes for the Alexa if you'll work with the RAW data, but there´s also the prores output module, I think it's a great idea for streamline the workflow, to have a 1080P QT right from the camera. I think we all agree that using the RAW from the Alexa will give you the best quality image and more options for the grading process, that's clear, but I'm afraid the Prores module will give a very good looking image, good enough for a untrained eye (or someone who can't understand the benefits of RAW post) in a far more simple and cheap process than RAW. Ok, you can think of Prores material as proxies, but Prores 442 HQ and Prores 4444 are more likely online quality formats, so I understand the idea behind it is give you a high quality image to work from if you don't want to go for a RAW route (and by the way giving up the "Digital Cinema" power for a more video-style workflow) but if this image is enough for your needs, that's fine. I understand also that the Alexa has a very good sensor so it should easily give you a very good base image.
My concern is about the technical quality of the prores image, not for the video codec itself, but for the imaging process from the 3.5k sensor data to a 1080P size image. What kind of debayer process is used? As it's a real-time in camera process, I tend to think it's not a full res debayer, but if I'm wrong please let me know, but for me it's hard to believe there's so much processing power inside the camera and if may be, it should be a very energy consuming feature.
If the prores image is not finally as full-high quality as the RAW image, it's not a sin. The problem from my point of view (I'm in Santiago, Chile) is that NOBODY will use the RAW image, mainly because it will be more expensive to record and process. You may think that to have a very high quality camera (and very expensive compared to the RED) and NEVER use it in full quality is like have a Porsche and use it just to go to the corner store, but well, it's a Porsche (or ARRI in this case) and there's a lot of fashion around it.
I'll very glad if someone knows the inside workflow of the Alexa camera to get the 1080P image from the 3.5K sensor.

Thanks and congratulations for a great board.

Daniel Dávila

Post-Producer
Santiago-Chile
http://www.kine-imagenes.cl


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Nigel ThompsonRe: ALEXA vs. RED?/ Demo, where?
by on May 23, 2010 at 4:17:36 pm

Well Said Daniel:

this info i would love to know as well.

Michael ?

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Michael BravinAlexa imaging and workflow questions
by on May 23, 2010 at 4:33:44 pm

Daniel

First of all thanks for your keen interest. The process of CMOS imaging with a Bayer mask is discussed a lot with lots of mis-information. Its important to note that a Bayer mask is just a method for color imaging from a single plane sensor and deriving color information using software formulas to decode the information into RGB colors. Each company that uses this imaging technique has their unique way of processing the information to derive what they consider the optimal image.

We do it by carefully selecting the color dyes used in the color filters in front of each pixel, along with a very sophisticated optical filter in front of the sensor and then carefully decoding the color information derived from the Bayer mask.

The science and physics that go in to ARRI’s color science are part of what makes the ARRI solution produce such a great image, remember we have a very high end scanner (ARRISCAN) that scans motion picture film and provides very high resolution very precise RGB color images for film DI. The same people and science are part of the development for Alexa’s ALEV III sensor. In short, we have A LOT of experience in very high quality imaging with CMOS.

Also keep in mind that realtime playback of ARRIRAW (uncompressed RAW data from the CMOS imager) does not require hardware acceleration like others, chiefly because we use no compression (thus no decompression hardware needed) and there are several solutions based on NVidia Coda which use GPU (Graphics specific Processors) which are very inexpensive and reside on retail available video cards.

Not to stray too far into the technical, lets just say it this way.

Really smart and experienced scientists and engineers at ARRI developed a sensor called ALEV of which Alexa uses the 3rd generation. This sensor makes very high quality color accurate naturalistic organic film like images. We take the raw data from the sensor and derive (through processing in the camera) uncompressed 1080P HD, at 422 and 444 color spaces and output these streams from the back of the camera. We also encode this information as Quicktime files with ProRes encoding at 220Mb ProRes 422HQ and 330 Mb ProRes 444. We then record these images on SxS cards,

Look at the images we produce and record and decide if they meet your technical and aesthetic requirements. On the high end we offer ARRIRAW for the most discerning applications and we move down from there to uncompressed dual 3G (quad link) or dual link for 444 RGB applications as well as uncompressed 422 HD then ProRes encoded 444 and 422, you choose. Choose based on the application and image quality, not the on paper specs. Everyone I have ever showed images from Alexa to, has commented on their quality and natural film like quality, but you must decide for yourself.

Many (almost everyone) Digital Cinema movies have been acquired at 1080P RGB so there is plenty of image quality and resolution quality available for the big screen if ARRIRAW at 2K is too expensive or time consuming of a workflow.

What makes ALEXA more expensive than a couple of cameras (and far less expensive than most cameras) is the build quality, image processing inside and choices it affords for workflow. I think you’ll find that the cost of the camera is FAR outweighed by the savings in post in terms of time money for whichever workflow you choose. Remember 444 ProRes is still RGB and affords a huge range for sophisticated and complicated keying and compositing along with wide range color correction.

Please see the images and workflow then decide what works for you in Chile. ProRes 444 is a non compromise workflow when it comes to image quality and flexibility.


Michael Bravin
Alexa Jedi
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc.


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Fred JodryAlexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on May 23, 2010 at 11:14:52 pm

Daniel, The light collecting pixel sensors on the Alexa`s photo- sensitive plate look like ships` sails compared to the batches of little transistors that immediately handle their outputs. This is a good comparison just like most digital photoplate cameras are like. In order to reach the best sensitivity with no mentionable color compromise, each pixel actually handles white luminance minus a taking primary color to equal two taking primaries instead of one per pixel. (Twice the sensitivity of the first or quickest imagined way). Each "subtractive" sort of primary on a pixel is then matrixed against the immediately surrounding ones by using zero to a couple of lines, sometimes horizontal, sometimes vertical, delay, the pixel is in the middle of the delay and all mixed (matrixed) after. Some low- pass filtering "midway" in the amplifiers keeps out noise frequencies above maybe 60 MHz (crude guessy math here) to separate cleanly defined signal mixes from relatively strong unwanted seas of rounding, distorting noise. From this made, properly filtered Red, Green, Blue, output it`s then possible to produce signals of which are amplified from equalling around the same strength and frequency as a shortwave radio station, a strong light image into to camera is like a strong radio signal coming in, a weak light signal pouring in is co-incidently as strong (weak) as a weak shortwave radio signal coming in. They are amplified from this weakness in voltage and current, to become maybe 5 peak volts, RGB, side by side, pouring into the gamma corrector, which puts maybe 2/10 of a volt from each color channel into an analog to digital converter which creates most of the correct digital nightmare now hurling side by side out the output cables towards your standalone side by side ProRes and Raw recorders or maybe live Broadcast converter mixing boards and your editing computer too. Codecs, multiplexed sound, timing, and identification also in digital form are all small lunch talk next to this. The camera comes up with the goods, the receiving end is somewhat harder. In order to equal the Alexa`s pictures, you have to use a good moving film camera with fresh and lucky film and processing, then give it to a good telecine. Although the group`s been mostly talking about the digital flow and edit in- between the camera and some made, edited takes, most of the story from the maker`s end is really what it takes to hold the camera and microphone handles, directing them with the appropriate squeezes, then aiming this programming, live or re- used into markets of people. Their attention and return should produce your reward or you`ve failed. I`m going to have a huge laugh when Arri finds out what their new buyers, new customers, are like. It`s my universal business question, "What are Customers, the Customers, like?" The corollary of the matter is, that if the camera, your only Alexa? makes good company with the sock puppets and the Musicians most of the night, then makes news, entertainment, and education, otherwise known mostly as progress whenever it takes it`s breath by day, then you can stay rich and Arri can bust with surprise. Now do it successfully.


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Michael BravinRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on May 24, 2010 at 12:03:26 am

Wow Fred...don't know quite what to say. That's a lot of words strung together. I kinda lost you at the ship sails/photoplate part. What is a photoplate?

For a "slightly more accessible" explanation maybe this will work:

http://www.arridigital.com/technical/bayermask
http://www.arridigital.com/technical/imaging-technology/dte


Michael Bravin
Alexa Jedi
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc.


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Gunleik GrovenRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on May 24, 2010 at 5:47:00 pm

Alexa vs Epic is going to be THE buzz of the next year.
And none of them are publicly out yet.

Except for Jim & co + Offhollywood, Steve Gibby on the RED side, Michael and the Arri Staff + their select beta-testers, very few of us really know what we're talking about here... Even fewer have had long sessions with both systems at this stage, and - if any - they probably are under deep NDA's.

I am in the RED camp, just to be clear. Have a R1, go for Epic and work in RED-centric environments, currently on a TV-series for NRK (nrk.no) recording on two R1s + 5D.

That said. I am looking foreward to play with the Alexa.
I think it will be a great cam, and I see that ACs love the D21 for it's "standard features, OVF and film-camera feel of operation".
Actually I think both cameras will be rather cool to have... -:)

Here's a couple of off-hand thoughts, though.

Prores.
I think RED will have to do it, and it is recently confirmed that they're actually are doing it right now. This feat looks so sweet from the outside, and will be "good enough" for a lot of projects (more on that later... -:)

That said: I deliver 1080 prores HQ files as offlines and 640 h-264 for dailies at the end of the day for the 2-4 camera (depending on day) TVC I am currently on.

Transcoding 5k in realtime will need an upgraded rocket. So I guess we will see an upgraded rocket about at the time we see the first release Epics...

As long as the transcode is realtime, copyspeeds are more of a bottleneck than delivering offline files directly off set.

Even with an extremely small crew (DOP + on-set editor) we managed to set up a workflow without a rocket that gave us 3 copies + offline files @ the end of the day on a feature in Northern Iraq.

The "record prores" argument to me sounds more sexy, than I think it practically is.
Still I think it will be an extremely good sellingpoint. (even when the producers loose the RAW option, because it will be too expensive to practically go for)


Formfactor.
This is a draw - to me.
The compact/lightweight setups possible with the Epic has become more of a dealmaker to me, than it innitially was.

On the show I am curretly on, they've opted for a couple of 5D's in the soup because they fit in "anywhere". The image quality of the 5D is... not good. Pulling focus on it is nigh impossible (the 5Ds are rigged down to a minimum, that's the whole purpose...)

Still a very experienced DP and a - in Norwegian Context - very high end production company opt for the 5D for its size and sensor-size. Line-skipping, moire, jello images, h.264 and all.

The possibility of landing these shots with a good camera with a good set of post-choices is in my opinion a big argument for the Epic.

After dragging my R1 around the world for almost 2 1/2 years, I also look foreward to being able to just "grab a cam and shoot", which will be a lot easier with the Epic.

Alexa will undoubtedly be "like a filmcamera" out of the box. AC's especially love "no-bullshit filmcameras".

Epic will be possible to assemble "film-style", but the out-of-the-box experience of Alexa will probably be very appealing to a lot of customers.

RAW
Not being an engineer, I won't attempt on arguilg which is "better". They probably both will be quite cool.
To me and the settings I've been working in - the "Compressed RAW" has been what has made it all possible, though. There aren't a lot of SR/Codex decks lying around in Norway. And I will never have one. Thus, to be able to work with RAW at all - for most projects - is a clear advantage towards Epic. For me.

Also seeing how the image actually can get better over time as the debayer/developing algorithms gets better, is quite an argument for RAW. For me...

VS DSLRs
Seeing how DSLRs are "good enough" all of a sudden, I think the possibility to put on canon/nikon glass and pull focus on a touch-screen on standard still-glass, is a good move.
It's happening, and I think this is a trend that it will be hard to get rid of.

DR
Seems to aim at about the same goal...

Workflow:
Prores is simple
Simple is good for a lot of applications.
I assume both will record prores @ release...

As for RAW, there just isn't that many options for uncompressed RAW around here. I dig compressed.

Almost anything supports redRAW in some kind of native way by now. FCP seems to be the one getting first in and now being the worst option. Either Apple will fix that, or AVID/Adobe will get a whole new and quite big userbase jumping ship the next 6 months. That is really more of an Apple problem, than a RED problem though.

Online, REDRAW is by now uncomplicated and the options are plentyfull - as they are with ArriRAW (I guess)
Looking foreward to test the new Resolve... -:)

Pixelcount...
I don't really care too much for counting pixels.
But Norway (like Belgium) go 100% digital for screenings within the next year.

As long as it holds up on a 4k screen it is not really an issue for neither commercials nor features.

I actually axpect both to do just fine...

DCMC
To me this is like prores.
It's nice. Not a dealmaker.

OVF
Will be available for both cams at a price

4:3 sensor-option
A smash-down win for the Alexa for anamorphic shoots.
RED has announced - but not shown - a set of anamorphic lenses for the RED. Will be interesting to see...

Economics.
RED has fitted very well into smaller markets where equipmentprices are a big part of the production budgets. AFAIK there's 1 Scratch here, quite a few Nucodas, a couple of pablos, quite a few Smokes.

Let's face it, Norway isn't really Hollywood. The total population is even less than London or Berlin. The RED has fitted very well into the sizes and budgets we're working on here. The Alexa seems to partly address that. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. My guess is that the bigger productions will go Alexa. For conformity. The one D-21 here is constantly rented out. But quite a few of the 60'ish R1s is rolling, too...

Well, these are my 2,5 cents...

Cheers!

Gunleik


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John CummingsRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on May 27, 2010 at 12:00:17 pm

Having made it this far reading this thread, I must say my head hurts a little. My thanks to Fred for making me read his last post three times. Now, I think I'll take De Bayer (aspirin).

Since I don't personally own a pocket protector, I'm not sure I'm qualified to join this conversation. But as a small-time DP, what I want to know is this: Does the Alexa make great images? How will it look on the small screen? Is the camera ergonomically and intelligently designed? Can I pop it off the tripod and run with it?Is it rugged and reliable? Is it noisy? Does it run hot? Are the controls and menus easy to access and understand? Can I easily operate it solo? Does the post path work for a wide variety of clients with different systems?

Considering you can now buy an Arri (for cryin' out loud!) for less than what an F900 cost just a few years ago, I'd say it's pretty friggin remarkable. For the small screen...and let's be truthful, that's where most of us here on the Cow work...who needs Red with all it's baggage and headaches?





J.Cummings
Chicago
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gary adcockRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on Jun 2, 2010 at 9:06:06 pm

[John Cummings] "But as a small-time DP, what I want to know is this: Does the Alexa make great images? How will it look on the small screen? Is the camera ergonomically and intelligently designed? Can I pop it off the tripod and run with it?Is it rugged and reliable? "

John,
After having another close look at Alexa 2 weeks ago my answer to all of the above is
It does take gorgeous images, built like every other arri product, (top quality) and it is intended to fill the needs of a shooter like you.

" Is it noisy? Does it run hot? Are the controls and menus easy to access and understand? Can I easily operate it solo? Does the post path work for a wide variety of clients with different systems? "

It is ultra quiet and the units at NAB that ran for 12 hrs straight were never more than warm to the touch. All Arri products are designed so that either solo or assisted shooting are equally simple and straight forward. The button controls and layout are going to wake up camera interface designers as Arri has brought some of the simple logical button functions that change dynamically as you change functions.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Pat McGowanRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on Jun 8, 2010 at 5:24:27 pm

Great post!!

Pat McGowan
President, inMotion DVS Inc.
Ottawa, Canada
Sony PMW350K, 2 Sony EX-3s, Sony EX-1
Final Cut Pro (6 seats), CS5 (4 seats), C4D
Small-Tree GraniteSTOR 32TB RAID


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Fred JodryRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on Jun 10, 2010 at 6:02:39 pm

You get to shoot your scenes with one ice cube in your mouth, or rain hat, instead of the usual two.


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Adrian BarrettRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on Jul 4, 2010 at 11:49:42 am

Just wondering if there will be Avid AMA support like Red?


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Michael BravinRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on Jul 4, 2010 at 5:11:20 pm

In Media Composer 5


Michael Bravin
Alexa Jedi
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc.


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Fred JodryRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ repeat of some advice.
by on Aug 14, 2010 at 11:07:25 pm

My general same advice with a few different verses and yarns:
Buy all the needed cables.
Buy as much main and supporting types of software as possible.
Make your workforce some editing computers, mixers, and other
hardware that will allow their workflow on the new Alexa to be no
more difficult at all than they are doing now. Surely you don`t think
their work habits will improve for no reason?
If your art department makes differerential color test charts complete
with nested memory color pictures like you`re Vistek encoders itself,
alright to share the results, then GET OVER the testing stage.
Plan some first productions that certainly don`t need perfection.
Advice from the U.S. War Department to the Aerial Photographers in WW II:
"Whatever you do, come back with the handles.".
If you make your first shot some fruit on a table make it a joke not a test!
Alright to steal my words here, I`ll make more. Fred Jodry


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Kirk GillonRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on Oct 17, 2010 at 5:59:42 pm

Nice post... being a Red user its great to see you're open to other cameras... there is so much arguing coming from the Red camp.
Being an Arri user in the film days... also D20 before Red was a Red, I'm partial to Arri.
I have used the R1... camera. The 25K price tag is nice too... until you realize there is not even a viewfinder with it... LOL...
That being said... both Arri and Red are hot items in the cinema world... I will continue to use both...
But if I could buy one camera, I'd go with Genesis... you can't buy those so Arri is next.

Kirk Gillon

http://www.gillonmedia.com


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Andreas SchmidRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on May 9, 2011 at 8:43:26 pm

Hello,
Even if this discussion is now a little bit older i would like to participate. I'm student doing a research for a case study to get to know some details of the cinema camera business.

Maybe you can help me here. I would like to know if there are any informations about market shares in forums/news sites special for film industry or any other numbers about this topic?
Im interested in ARRI, RED and Panavision.
I hope you could help me or even redirect me to a different forum or webpage where i can found more detailed information.

Help is highly appreciated :-D
Thanks
Andi


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Fred JodryRe: Alexa vs. Red?/ Daniel
by on May 9, 2011 at 11:51:00 pm

Andreas, there is a Business And Marketting title in our forums- but I would think that it is a much better question why these businesses exist in the first place. For one thing, these businesses have in some cases been continuously in operation for more than a hundred years, while the newer or new ones just squeeze in to an often existing market without ruffling each other`s feathers whether the oppportunities are crowded or not. Most businesses use their own money not even the banks` money to start or roll whether they are poor or rich. If you are studying the job of Business Manager you would be better off studying the job of Business Controller/ Comptroller (same name) as it is a much more hands on version of the job. See, one of the problems about aiming towards the typical job of Business Manager is that really everything, almost everything, is often rather lacking and has to be made fresh from scratch in order to exist. There`s no market, it has to be made. There are no product or products, they have to be made. For example, when one of my old Engineering jobs aimed me into making some sales time on the telephone, one morning I found myself talking to another TV and industrial Engineer who had a really great product he had on the market for about 4 years. ¨Would you send us our first one to sample and sell?¨, I questioned. ¨Sure.¨, he said. When I got the package in the mail from the middle of the country a few days later openning it produced an unexpected disappointment. The Inventor- Engineer had mailed me his original invention because no made units had ever sold in the distraction that is the real marketplace. Try reading the Art Of The Edit topic. The tales of woe and practical advice are relatively plentiful there. Don`t even worry about new or old technology as long as there`s a market. You can copy or make piano rolls for a living, or for $100,000 more you can use a servo mirrors set on an Alexa to make 3D originals that fill nickelodeon trays with replacement prints, a technological mix, or you can use one of these new cameras to make originals that burn theatre film prints. Make your business, make your choice, make your job. Don`t worry too much about making yourself a name. Famous or not, you were already born with one. Congratulations on studying from the beginning of a topic, it shows how the topic was made.

Hello,
Even if this discussion is now a little bit older i would like to participate. I'm student doing a research for a case study to get to know some details of the cinema camera business.

Maybe you can help me here. I would like to know if there are any informations about market shares in forums/news sites special for film industry or any other numbers about this topic?
Im interested in ARRI, RED and Panavision.
I hope you could help me or even redirect me to a different forum or webpage where i can found more detailed information.

Help is highly appreciated :-D
Thanks
Andi


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