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DPX transcoding for grade and VFX

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stig olsenDPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 26, 2012 at 9:54:14 pm

Hi,

How do you deal with transcoding Red Raw files to DPX for VFX department?
I want to have the opportunity to change the raw settings, and that is not possible after the DPX is made.

The workflow I can think is as following:

EDL of final edit into Resolve
Relink to the original r3d-files
Set the red raw settings (red log, red gamma etc)
Export DPX for both VFX and grading

Is this the way you work?
I guess this makes sense but it limits the ability to change the raw settings in the grading process as it has to be done before grading.


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Juan SalvoRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 26, 2012 at 10:07:34 pm

Yeah. Some vfx software can accept r3d native. But a good flat dpx will give you all the latitude of the r3d, it just won't have the camera tab options.

online editor | colorist | VFX | BD author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Sascha HaberRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 6:38:57 am

ACES or True Linear in EXR

A slice of color...

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.2
MacPro 5.1 2x2,4 24GB
RAID0 8TB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Extreme 3D+

ICA Instructor
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Margus VollRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 6:43:44 am

Or you could run your pipeline so that you replace earlier version.

Depends on how you handle the files. If in the same building or town etc
then it is rather simple to make some adjustments and replace your output to vfx.

In some cases i like the idea that you have the whole chain in your hand and re adjust
and re export what ever you like when ever you like. It may generate more steps to complete
but some times gives you more control. You just have to adjust all with your needs.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.3
MacPro 5.1 2x2,93 24GB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Multibridge 2 Pro


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stig olsenRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 7:49:16 am

Thank you.

I think I was a bit unclear... As you can see from my post, my concern is that I have to decide which color space and gamma curve to apply BEFORE exporting the DPX.
Because I need to send the DPX-files to the VFX-guys before I start grading.
Isnt this correct?

For instance if i choose RedLogFilm, export DPX, and having the file back - I cannot change from RedLogFilm to RedGamma if I want to. It means that Im stuck with the choice I made before exporting the DPX to the VFX-guys.


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Jack JonesRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 9:11:12 am

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?74001-REDgamma3-and-REDcolor3-u...

"DI will typically still start with REDlogFilm and REDcolor3."

Many DI colorists out there don't have access to the Red settings in the grade. The Red footage is prepared to fit into a Log pipeline for film outs. VFX can then work linear to light using a standard LUT so everyone is playing the same game.

Obviously depends on everything from budget to color pipeline to workflow.

Jack Jones
Freelance Nucoda/Baselight/DaVinci Colourist
--
http://www.jackjonescolourist.com


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stig olsenRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 9:54:03 am

Hi Jack,

From your website - "Once the project was conformed I went through and adjusted all my RED RAW settings. I tend to setup RED footage as REDLogFilm and REDGamma2 as I feel it gives me the best starting point available from the footage."

This is the same settings I work with. Do you adjust the raw settings for THEN to export DPX to the VFX-guys?

I cant find a way to do it the other way around (export first and make changes after the DPX brought back from VFX)
It forces me to decide the Raw settings before grading, because we usually export DPX before grading.


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stig olsenRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 11:21:42 am

As you understand, if I do export the DPX with the raw settings changed to redlogFilm and Redgamma2, it is complicated to paint or do whatever VFX because there will be need for some serious gamma adjustments in the VFX tool.


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Dan MoranRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 12:25:56 pm

Hey Stig,

I think you need to take an old school approach on this and do a firstlight and then a bestlight type grade.

In my head the firstlight would be when you grade the original files to a very basic level. So make sure your happy with all your exposure, color temperatures and other bits that you want to adjust from the raw file but not any "creative" grading.

Render everything redcolor and redlogfilm to dpx.

Then when the VFX are finished you can go back into Resolve and do a "bestlight" this is your final grade off the DPX files and hopefully you wont need to worry about any of the red settings and grade happily.

Makes sense to me and I hope it helps!

D

Dan Moran
DaVinci Application Specialist
Blackmagic Design EMEA


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stig olsenRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 12:49:59 pm

Thanks Dan!

So this is the way you all do this? It takes away a lot of flexibility.

Stig


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Margus VollRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 12:52:44 pm

it really depends if and how much flexibility you need.

it all comes on finical cost or cost in time.

so i think there is not one 100% model and it depends of your needs, budget and workflow.

probably you know your project best and can go from there.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.3
MacPro 5.1 2x2,93 24GB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Multibridge 2 Pro


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Dan MoranRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Apr 27, 2012 at 1:11:19 pm

I don't do that if I can help it but say for example my last job was a short film.

I graded the original files for most of the film but there was about 10-15 VFX shots and for those I did a pre correction grade which was fixing any major issues but no look etc.. rendered to dpx and when I got the shots back from the guys I applied the final look with no issues. Also a 10 bit DPX file should be more than enough for grading.

D

Dan Moran
DaVinci Application Specialist
Blackmagic Design EMEA


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Dylan HopkinRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on May 2, 2012 at 8:47:50 pm

Stig,

Extracting the DPX-files with RedLogFilm / REDGamma3 (or 2 if you don't have 3) is fine. It is pretty common practice for feature film and commercial work. Make sure you use "use meta from each shot / metadata as shot" to retain metadata used in the camera on the shooting day.

I tend not to use RMD / RSX data. Since we do not want to "bake" a look in to the ungraded DPX files.

(Yes I know that white balance, iso etc is tweakable metadata on R3D)

Good DOPs should have shot this correctly / well balanced.

A good safety precaution is to check that nothing "clips" in the histogram. If all the detail is retained, you should have all you need for grading.

I would not recommend pre-grading before VFX.
Most high-end VFX houses have LUTs for RedLogFilm, or at least RedLog.
The LUTs are only used for viewing while comping.
If you want to give the VFX artists some bearing on how the intended final grade will look. You can always make them a custom viewing-LUT so that they have better understanding on the "look".

Basically when the finished vfx-comps come back the colorspace / gamma should be indenticle to the original "plate" you delivered.
Depending on how "heavy" the VFX are of course.
For typical rig-removal-shots the "plate" and "comp" should be exactly the same colorwise. If not, then usually the VFX Artist has exported with their viewing LUT still on.

Use RedCinexPro / Monkey Extract / Da Vinci for R3D to DPX extraction.

And you loose the ability to tweak "RED metadata" when going to DPX.
But this is not a problem!

There are many thoughts concerning how to this type of work, but this works fine for all the VFX-houses I've co-operated with over the years 8.)

--
// Dylan
Online Editor / Colourist
Nordisk Film ShortCut Norway
Showreel: http://www.dylanhopkin.com
IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4104429/
Twitter: drhopkin


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stig olsenRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on May 3, 2012 at 9:57:00 am

Thank you Dylan,

So that basically means that you change to RedColor3/Redlogfilm before the DPX extraction?

And by "LUTs for RedLogFilm" you mean a viewing LUT that is apply afterwards in Flame/Smoke etc, that "converts" the dull/flat redlog DPX-files to something more contrasty that is possible to work with?

If you work in After Effects, do you follow the same procedure with applying an viewing LUT or do you use ICC profiles configuration instead to achieve the same?
If you use a LUT I guess it doesnt matter much what kind of LUT that is used, as long as it gives the VFX-artist a good starting point - since the LUT is disabled when rendering anyway?

Stig


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Dylan HopkinRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on May 2, 2012 at 8:53:20 pm

Stig,

I must correct something:

RedColor3 / RedLogFilm is what I meant, not RedGamma3 / RedLogFilm...... a major typo!

--
// Dylan
Online Editor / Colourist
Nordisk Film ShortCut Norway
Showreel: http://www.dylanhopkin.com
IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4104429/
Twitter: drhopkin


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Philipp MeierRe: DPX transcoding for grade and VFX
by on Aug 1, 2012 at 10:57:19 pm

Very interesting discussion! This is my first time with Resolve and I'm still learning the ropes. I was tempted to export DPX with REC709 and Redcolor3. However, I understand that RedLog(Film) would preserve much more data.

Is there a RedLog(Film) LUT that I can use in Resolve once the VFX shots are returned to me? I dont think I'd be able to grade log footage so that it looks nice again. Just don't have the experience.

Any workflow suggestions once you get those log DPX shots back from the VFX house?

(also would you recommend RedLog or RedLog film? This is for a web/tv production. Not film out)

Thanks!


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