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Legal values

COW Forums : DaVinci Resolve

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stig olsenLegal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 10:40:31 am

Hi,

I have read a lot on the forum but I need the correct information.

If I click the normally scaled video button, this gives me monitor output that are legalized (64-960). But, this is for me useless as it doesnt apply to the render output.

I need a solution to work within broadcast legal and output legal levels.
My problem is when I do my corrections in Resolve (with normally scaled) applied, it still gives me an full range output. When importing it to Avid, applying a legalizing-filter, its clipped.

How to work with this?

I work with everything from RED to F3-log and I need a solution to output legalized material for avid-import.

And one more thing. How do I read the internal scopes when they are set to 1023, its impossible to do the correct corrections if it does not read 64-960 as is legal for broadcast.


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Ola Haldor VollRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 11:38:34 am

A shot from the hip here, which I forgot to mention last night in our conversation on e-mail.
In the Render window, you should have a choice whether to render with normal or full scale.


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Ingo SchultenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 11:52:13 am

Hi,
would you publish the content of your email conversation regarding legal levels here because other people might be interested in your findings as well;-)
Greetings
Ingo


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 11:53:42 am

I see, that will probably make it happen. I will try, thanks!


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Robbie CarmanRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 11:24:25 pm

I've been through this issue a 100 million times and tested everything. My issue is never with legal luma or chroma values its with RGB Gamut. As far as I can tell (looking at external parade, and diamond displays) Resolve does not do any sort of RGB Gamut limiting and even with LUTs applied we were still getting kick backs from QC.

At the end of the day I gave up. Our current workflow is HD-SDI output from Resolve/FCP through Harris DL860 > Ki Pro for recording to ProRes. This solution works nice as the Ki Pro is seen as a "deck" with FCP through RS422. Of course we're limited to ProRes in that workflow but thats fine as most of our clients are asking for ProRes deliverable files We're planning when the Cinedeck RXs are available to get one of those as they're much more flexible recorders.

Robbie Carman
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kim krauseRe: Legal values
by on Oct 7, 2011 at 7:50:27 am

i had the same problem after 3 days of grading...rgb gamut errors all over the place. i never had this problem in color....i just sent the whole davinci project into color and applied the legalizer to everything and it passed QC.


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Gabriele TurchiRe: Legal values
by on Oct 26, 2011 at 12:51:27 am

[Robbie Carman] "At the end of the day I gave up. Our current workflow is HD-SDI output from Resolve/FCP through Harris DL860 > Ki Pro for recording to ProRes. "

Hi robbie:
one question : The harris DL860 : does it check (QC) the image also in terms of glitches or or stutters etc.. ?

or just luma and chroma level ?

thanks
g

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
MacPro
Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX470+GTX470+GTX285
24GB RAM
HP Dreamcolor
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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 12:03:10 pm

Unfortunately there are no "render normal scale" in the render window on my version (8.01).
That option will probly solve everything.

But even if this will be integrated in the new version I need to read the scope as legal vaules and not from 0 to 1023.


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Andy WinterRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 1:16:57 pm

if you double click on the waveform, you should be able to set the bottom and top values. then you get at least a green line showing you those boundaries...

hope that helps.


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 1:34:51 pm

Ok, thanks!

But do you guys seriously mean that you work this way, it sounds ok for web delivery, but for broadcast (709) - no.


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Gabriele TurchiRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 2:06:06 pm

you can output full range YUV or DPX and be totally done for broadcast , since others system along the line will scale on the SDI like resolve does ,

for example if you render out scaled DPX to a flame system or smoke , flame will scale again on the sdi so it will be double scaled (washed out ) , so there no only 1 way to do it ....

g

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
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Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX470+GTX470+GTX285
24GB RAM
HP Dreamcolor
Panasonic 58PF Plasma


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Kevin CannonRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 2:10:40 pm

Yup, the video monitoring selection of full-range vs. legal only applies to the video outputs from the card - if you want that transform to appear in your renders, use an output LUT that scales to 64-940 (you can create one in just a minute with the soft clip lot generation tool).

Once you add the LUT you will probably want to switch your monitoring to "full range" to avoid doubling up the effect, but you should get an identical image to your displays. I usually use external scopes, but I imagine that you would see the scaling on the internal scopes.

That's what I do in this situation, at least, going to Avid or places that request legal values.

Cheers,

KC

Prehistoric Digital
PhD Grading Suite


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Ingo SchultenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 2:28:56 pm

We had this very discussion here a couple of weeks ago with different answers. For example that Resolve always renders legal when going to a YUV Codec like ProRes. Even without a LUT.
And after applying a 64-940 LUT during Render and going back to FinalCut there where some very washed out blacks and lowered whites.
Could someone from Blackmagic please offer some final answer. There is nothing in the manuals about this topis as far as I know.
Thanks
Ingo


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Wayne ChiangRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 8:02:18 pm

and frist, sorry for my bad English,
I think Kevin Cannon is right , Resolve render YUV code as ProRes is full range that means file oneself is full range , but sometimes , when we view this file ,depending on different decoder(QuicktimeX and fcp Viewer),maybe will looks like washed out blacks and lowered whites on QX.


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Jan MartensRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 2:15:00 pm

The green lines are good for scoping your manually adjusted legal videosignal.
If you want an automatic legalizer, you can use one of the output LUTs from the configuration page. The output LUT will be used for your render. To adjust the range of the singnal to be compressed use a self generated LUT & the softness sliders. This scales your signal more in the hi- & lowlights and lesser in the midrange.


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Chris HallRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 2:53:42 pm

Well I can honestly say I've output every flavor of prores from Resolve (from Proxy, to LT, to HQ, to 4444) and every version of prores renders out scaled (as in 64-940, or 16-235 in 8 bit, and yes this includes ProRes4444), and the the DNXHD MXF renders for AVID I've done always scale as well on render. It would be GREAT, to have an option to render "FULL RANGE" (maybe this is an 8.1 option I'm hoping?), but currently you have to render DPX's to get full range and then convert them in something like After Effects or Cineform or whatever to get a Full Range quicktime or something else if you need it. As always, someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but alas, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Chris Hall
Colorist - Basher Films
Pasadena, CA


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Gabriele TurchiRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 2:56:58 pm

yes 8.1 have that function , you can decide to render full or scaled

ps:chris: out of curiosity how do you check if the rendered QT is scaled or full ? because sometimes some system interpret the YUV as scaled but they actually are full....

g

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
MacPro
Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX470+GTX470+GTX285
24GB RAM
HP Dreamcolor
Panasonic 58PF Plasma


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Chris HallRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 3:22:28 pm

Gabriele, I actually checked this by sending a 0-255 grayscale "stepped chart" with gray bars at increasing RGB levels from 0, 16, 35, etc. all the way to 255 (these were true numeric RGB levels). When outputting quicktimes or DNXHD's the grayscale bars clipped at 16 and 235 every time, making the bars to the left or right solid black and or solid white with no differentiation left between the bars (whereas before there was an obvious difference in brightness).It was the only way I could think of to do a true "check" of the scaling.

Chris Hall
Colorist - Basher Films
Pasadena, CA


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Tim FarrellRe: Legal values
by on Oct 6, 2011 at 10:47:36 pm

As I understand it, with the exception of JPEG and JFIF stillframes, there is no such thing as full range YUV ie: it's always scaled.

Perhaps Rohit or one of the other DaVinci team can confirm this.


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 3:01:22 pm

Chris: Without applying a LUT?
I dont think that is possible, you can set it to normal scale for monitoring, but when Im reading the scopes in other applications the rendered files are full range. Also when importing to Avid / AMA.


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 5, 2011 at 3:02:32 pm

Sorry Chris, if thats an opportunity in 8.1 you are probably covered :)


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 6, 2011 at 4:56:49 pm

Hi again,

After some more testing we have come up with a solution that works for us.

1. Create a soft clip LUT (range 64-940)
2. Check the "LUT on waveform"-option
3. Apply the LUT on the overall track timeline (that way it will apply on all nodes)

Then, its not possible to work in ranges under and over 64-940)
It will also be seen on the wave forms.

We have testet these files in Avid MC through AMA and in Flame.
It works perfect!

And, one more thing:
If you read the scopes in Avid (RGB-parade) you will notice that the 64-940-range is not exactly the same as 16-235. That actually makes it possible to stretch the ranges a bit more if you want and still be in broadcast safe.


I just got an e-mail fra BMD who tells me that "When you render out to a YUV based format (all ProRes, all DNxHD), the render is
always at video levels, i.e. 64-940." but thats not what I have experienced.

Looking forward to hear your opinions on this.


Stig


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Oct 6, 2011 at 5:43:07 pm

correction:

render is always at video levels, i.e. 64-940." and that IS what I have experienced, but it means that the highlights and black levels are clipped so you have to make sure to use the output LUT to have control and not to get any surprises when importing the material to Avid or other finishing tools that read "normal scaled" values.


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Donal O KaneRe: Legal values
by on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:17:28 am

for step 3 when applying the LUT to the track ....

do you add it to both input and output format?


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stig olsenRe: Legal values
by on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:16:16 pm

Output


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Christian StoehrRe: Legal values
by on Oct 22, 2012 at 8:01:35 am

Beginner Question here: What about the Chroma levels. I'm not sure how to check for those. I keep reading about a limit of 110 and to use the Waveform Monitor set to FLAT mode, but the Resolve scope doesn`t have that. And with your soft clip LUT when I look at the Vector scope, I can still push it passed the recommended 75% marks.


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