Creative COW SIGN IN :: SPONSORS :: ADVERTISING :: ABOUT US :: CONTACT US :: FAQ
Creative COW's LinkedIn GroupCreative COW's Facebook PageCreative COW on TwitterCreative COW's Google+ PageCreative COW on YouTube
RED CAMERA:Red Camera ForumRed Camera Tutorials / ArticlesHD TutorialsHD High-End Forum

Workflow workflow workflow

COW Forums : RED Camera

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Share on Facebook
Sean DavisonWorkflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 30, 2008 at 11:45:33 am

With Red Cameras starting to pop up here in the UK We are trying to get our heads around how we can best integrate them into our 1080i, 1080p workflows.

From what I understand the Cameras shoot at either 4k or 2k in Raw data The cameras also generate quicktime proxies (1080p which reference the original 4k files) These proxies are what you import into a 1080 ProRes 422 HQ 10 bit timeline and offline (at full 1080p res)

These can be treated as if they were the result of a Digitise process - can be graded in Color (new quicktimes created!) and rendered and played out as normal.

Please correct the hell out of me if I've got this wrong and is any one doing this?


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Ramona HowardRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 30, 2008 at 6:44:31 pm

Sean,

I can give you a little insight (not much) as to what's going on with parts of the workflow process.

Red to Scratch and or the RedCine app on a MAC/Windows System. From either of these the processed frames (DPX) are written directly to a RaveHD whereas color can be done on any number of solutions, davinci being the choice of the group I know but not limited to this. There are also other solutions that the DPX frames can be passed of to.

The DPX frames on the RaveHD can be turned into a number of formats, including QT, AVI, MPEG4, DNxHD and soon DVCproHD. There are also other apps out on the market that do this also.

With the EDL a conform back to the RaveHD, where again you can go thru a conversion process, dump the frames off for a film-out, bring into final color, feed a projector or print to tape.

The DPX workflow has been one in the mix for many years and is working very well. Many shows are being done this way and the time savings is tremendous and keeps the images uncompressed and pure all the way thru.

Here is a article that mentioned this a bit.
http://www.spectsoft.com/RaveManual-Company-PressandNews-SpypostMarkee.html

Hope that helps,
Ramona



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Arnie SchlisselRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 30, 2008 at 9:40:51 pm

As I understand it (and I have no hands on experience), the camera shoots 4k or 2k. You then use RedCine or Red Alert to make 1k or 2k proxies, not 1080 proxies.

If you need 1080 output, and you have a Kona in your FCP system, this may not be a big deal, you just set the Kona to output 1080i. And you can export your FCP timeline to QT uncompressed 8 bit or 10 bit, or ProRes or to a .dpx image sequence to grade in Color.

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Russell LassonRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 31, 2008 at 5:38:29 pm

As of last time I worked with a camera (Decemeber) RED shot 4K. If you shot 2K, it just cropped the image down to 2K, but still recorded it as a 4K file with black around the image to make up for the cropped file. You would only shoot 2K for speed fx, otherwise, you're just cropping the image. RED was working on changing this, but I haven't heard the latest.

Your workflow is really going to depend on what you're finishing to.

A basic Apple FCP/Color workflow would be to shoot RED and use REDCINE to convert the files to PRORES 1080P. From there, you would just finish using the PRORES files. This doesn't maximize the quality, but it will work well for many users.

There was talk about REDCINE using an edl to coform back to a higher quality format than PRORES, but I haven't tried it. From what I've read, there is a way of doing it though.

I'm hoping that Apple will work through some of these issues and release an update at NAB. My dream list is Color working natively with R3D files and being able to render out to PRORES 444 or PRORES 444 RGB. Even if they only supported 2K, that would be awesome!

-Russ



Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

gary adcockRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 31, 2008 at 5:49:31 pm

[Russell Lasson] "f you shot 2K, it just cropped the image down to 2K, but still recorded it as a 4K file with black around the image to make up for the cropped file."

not true anymore- 2K is 2K....


"A basic Apple FCP/Color workflow would be to shoot RED and use REDCINE to convert the files to PRORES 1080P. "

however on a top of the line machine- that is about a 25x realtime conversion from 4K. ( that is 25 times longer - NOT faster)

"Even if they only supported 2K, that would be awesome! "

a better workflow is to do what film pdeople have done for 10 years, convert the R3D files to 2K dpx and finish that way- also solves Color's YUV >RGB failings.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Sean DavisonRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 31, 2008 at 5:57:31 pm

DPX is just not an option for us here in docco land! I need a way to take footage from the San Disk/Red Drive and get it en masse into FCP where it is Offline edited media managed to Online (keeping ProRes422 codec, graded in Color, sent back to FCP and played out to HDCam SR.

Hows this for an idea? - Take the hi res proxies and run them through Compressor converting to 1080p 10bit

Red Cine doesn't seem to want to do batches and after a 3 week shoot which would normally generate 10 hrs of footage doing each clip individually is a nightmare.

Can anyone see any problems with using Compressor?

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


gary adcockRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 31, 2008 at 6:11:02 pm

[Sean Davison] "Red Cine doesn't seem to want to do batches and after a 3 week shoot which would normally generate 10 hrs of footage doing each clip individually is a nightmare. "

you sure you are not talking about RED Alert???

RedCine will process all of the files on a card or drive and output them with TC, even separating them into individual folders if you ask. I have processed as many as 51 camera clips in one render with RED CINE.

the compressor route is very very slow....




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Russell LassonRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Jan 31, 2008 at 6:22:01 pm

From what I understand (or what I understood at the beginning of December) the QT proxy files don't use a high quality interpretation of the 4K to 2K file. It's still good, but not the highest quality that you can do in REDCINE.

Gary, is there a speed difference between using RECCINE to export to 2K files vs. ProRes?

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Mathieu MaranoRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 12:02:29 pm

If you create 1080 proxies (or use the one created by the camera. , You can bring them in Compressor and use "QMastered" Macs to speed things up. If you get to hook up 25 MacPro...it's gonna be realtime! Typically the conversion time we tried is 24:1.


Mathieu Marano
online editor - motion graphics - Post-prod director
Directeur technique de post-production
Le Bureau de post production

Administrator of the Montreal Final Cut User Group
http://www.finalcutmtl.org


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Sean DavisonRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 12:11:44 pm

Thanks for that - Ill run some tests compressor vs Red Cine when I get a decent chunk of footage!

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Ramona HowardRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 10:40:22 pm

Sean,

You comment:
DPX is just not an option for us here in docco land! I need a way to take footage from the San Disk/Red Drive and get it en masse into FCP where it is Offline edited media managed to Online (keeping ProRes422 codec, graded in Color, sent back to FCP and played out to HDCam SR.

Take a look at Glue Tools for FCP :)

Cheers,
Ramona





Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Graeme NattressRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 12:54:54 am

2k has never been recorded as 4k with a black border. The 2k modes window the sensor thus allowing us to read from the sensor faster, thus getting a higher frame rate. The cropping actually occurs by telling the sensor to read just a smaller area to gain the extra speed.

If you want to record 2k, but have it come from the full sensor, then just record 4k and post-scale as that will produce the best looking results, and gives you the flexibility to go to the 4k shot if needed, say, for a push in. There would be very little data rate advantage to recording 2k from the full sensor over 4k anyway, and you'd loose this flexibility.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Russell LassonRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 5:12:22 pm

[Graeme Nattress] "The 2k modes window the sensor thus allowing us to read from the sensor faster, thus getting a higher frame rate. The cropping actually occurs by telling the sensor to read just a smaller area to gain the extra speed. "

This is what I understood. I believe I used the word crop. And in December, it was "windowed" or "cropped" so the R3D files had a black border out to the 4K files. Regardless, I guess the point is that sensor windows the image down to 2K so that messes with your lenses. As you said, it's really only worth doing if you need the extra frames per second. Otherwise, just shoot native 4K.

Graeme, is the current conversion of R3D files to ProRes really 25x using REDCINE?

One more thing, thanks for the "open" communication structure of the company. There are disadvantages that come with it, but it really helps to build trust with your consumer base and that out weighs the disadvantages in my opinion. I'm personally hoping that after NAB announcements and upgrades that I'll be able to shoot most of our projects with RED.
Anyways, Thanks.

-Russ







Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

gary adcockRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 5:27:14 pm

[Russell Lasson] "is the current conversion of R3D files to ProRes really 25x using REDCINE? "

On the 8core machine that is about right, on a Quad core it is about 35 x


FYI --on the speed issue -- output of 2K DPX frames from the 4K R3D files are handled faster in REDCINE than a 1080 video file is.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Graeme NattressRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 6:39:47 pm

I've never seen an R3D that produces 2k as a centre window in 4k on output..... So I don't know what you saw then back in December.

Speed of export is an issue we are dealing with as we learn more and more about how things work....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Russell LassonRe: Workflow workflow workflow
by on Feb 1, 2008 at 6:46:21 pm

[Graeme Nattress] "I've never seen an R3D that produces 2k as a centre window in 4k on output..... So I don't know what you saw then back in December."

Maybe it was just how it showed up in REDCINE, but then again, if the man who wrote the software hasn't seen it, then maybe I'm off my rocker.

Regardless, we're all looking forward to future advances in workflow.

Thanks!

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Share on Facebook


FORUMSTUTORIALSFEATURESVIDEOSPODCASTSEVENTSSERVICESNEWSLETTERNEWSBLOGS

Creative COW LinkedIn Group Creative COW Facebook Page Creative COW on Twitter
© 2014 CreativeCOW.net All rights are reserved. - Privacy Policy

[Top]