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RED workflow, film out questions

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Jonathan AlbertsRED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 4, 2009 at 12:09:56 am

Hey there--

I have a couple of questions regarding a RED workflow for a feature film that will be shot 4K 16:9 to be finished as 35mm film out. I'm putting the entire system together but not yet sure if we're going Avid or FCP. I like either flavor but I pretty much have to come up with specs for both systems.

I've read Noah's book back to front (twice...excellent resource! and super informative, great work Noah.) I've also researched things on a ton of boards but a couple of questions linger.

1. The plan is to transcode footage (to ProRes Proxy) with Red Rushes and scale the 4K footage down to HD res. 1920 x 1080 for ease of outputs/screeners while we're cutting. Is this a smart idea? Am i going to be sacrificing *much* resolution going this route instead of sticking with 2K? I was told scaling won't add much time to the transcoding process and it would make outputs for screeners etc. much easier.

2. I got the minimum requirements for both systems (seems we'll need two, one dedicated to transcoding/prep for the assist. And one for me for cutting. Though, it seems with ProRes Proxy I'll have plenty of room on my internal drives for 20-40 hours of footage. Anybody see a disadvantage with this?

3. Capture Cards...If I want to be able to simply monitor footage on a broadcast monitor is there a reason the Kona3 vs. decklink is a better option? I mean decklink is so much cheaper and I'm not finishing on this system i can't quite figure out why we should pay so much more for Kona3. Is the Kona3 gonna give me something else that I'm not quite understanding here?

4. Finishing...As much as I've read I'm confused about the real difference between doing a 2k film out and a 4K film out. Is there a big difference in seeing a 2K vs. 4K film out projected? And how common are 4K film outs now? Are they prohibitively expensive for indie-finishing with budgets under $2m? I know a few years ago they absolutely were but now?

thanks a lot,
jalberts


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Noah KadnerRe: RED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 4, 2009 at 6:14:59 am

1-3 are fine- I'd suggest test but basically you sound like you're doing fine.

4- Nearly every filmout done today in 2009 is done at 2K so personally I think there's no reason to go the extra expense of 4K.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera! Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II, and Panasonic DVX100.
http://www.callboxlive.com
DSLR Cinematography Blog


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Uli PlankRe: RED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 4, 2009 at 11:02:04 am

I sesond this:
4K is unnecessary, expensive and, after all, the RED is not delivering true 4K resolution, just about 3.2 optical. Film in theatre can resolve only around 1K (even if neg is much higher)!

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Arnie SchlisselRe: RED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 6, 2009 at 1:34:47 am

4k is very rarely used for filmout. Very few film recorders even have that much resolution. 4k scanning is mainly used for VFX plates, final conform and DI is typically done from 2k scans for big budgets or even 1080 for lower budget features.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Jonathan AlbertsRe: RED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 6, 2009 at 3:00:11 pm

thanks everyone. very helpful information.


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Neil AbeynayakeRe: RED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:52:24 pm

Jonathan,

The question is not which format(2k or 4k) is best, but rather, which format is best for your project? The answer, of course, is based on a balance between aesthetic and budgetary considerations.

In your post there is a reference about transcoding. Have you considered all available options than staying with Avid and/or FCP? In case you did not, there are other viabilities to ingest REDcode (.R3D) files, edit, color correct and conform without transcoding. Assimilate Scratch will do all these in real-time (with most modern PC computers). All what you have to do is to transfer REDcode files to a local SATA RAID, e-SATA JBOD or to a SAN array. We do this process with a PC (Dual Intel W5590 @3.33 GHz CPUs, Tyan S7010 motherboard, (2) ATI Radeon™ HD 5870 X-Fired, 48GB Kingston KHX1600C9D3K3/12GX, Non-ECC DDR3-1600 SDRAM [4 Kits]). Please note that we do real-time playback of 4K REDcode files with Assimilate Scratch, all day long with the above system.

http://www.assimilateinc.com/pdfs/ASSIMILATE_white_paper_the_red_color_work...


Unless you ARE planning to open a post-house or you have people lined up with projects ready to go, there is no point in allocating funds slated for the movie production in purchasing computers for post work. With computers and specialized hardware/software applications opens another issue for discussion. "Experience". Experience to perform what is needed to be done, using the hardware/software that you have at hand. Some folks assume that just by purchasing the latest and the most advanced equipment will solve all their problems (at least, for that project). And when they cannot get favorable and timely answers to "their" specific question(s), they panic and do speed reading, rushing to every tech forum looking for solutions. Even though, we are students of the world, one needs to acquire knowledge required for the job before hand. People who run this forum are busy professionals of their own accord. If you happen to ask them, they would say, nothing came easy for them. They had to shed blood, sweat and tears for every bit of experience they received. I am sure they had to sacrifice a lot of time and energy to get to where they are today. They are doing a great service by sharing their professional experiences without any form of compensation. I am truly grateful to each and every person who contribute to this forum by sharing their knowledge and experiences. Thank you gentlemen! After all, there is a saying that "No person is an island".

Outsourcing is a good way to start. If you actively participate in the workflow, you will learn the process, associated workflow aspects, how and what works etc. Once you've acquired this knowledge, you would be able to setup your workflow/post-house without much of a hassle.



That being said, let's get to the issue at hand. Here are some links that might help you.


Does 4K really make a difference?

http://www.cameracinemas.com/content_etc/Why4K.pdf


-----------------------------------------------


Sony 4K: Resolution and determination
Aug 24, 2009

The industry debate over the value of resolution in digital-cinema formats reached a turning point this past June, when Texas Instruments’ DLP Cinema division and its three projector manufacturing partners, BARCO, Christie and NEC, announced that they were developing new 4K technologies. The news came within a few months of top theatre circuits Regal and AMC signing a deal to install thousands of Sony 4K systems, which offer a resolution of 4096 x 2160 pixels, compared to 2K’s resolution of 2048 x 1080 pixels.

For our annual special section on digital cinema, Film Journal International went directly to the manufacturers to get their vantage points on 4K vs. 2K.


http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-
features/features/technology/e3i7bf40443797a443d6b676b97cfa76e62


-----------------------------------------------


How Many "K"s Do I Need

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.com/downloads/HowManyKsDoINeed.pdf

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how many 4K Digital movie theaters in the US?

As of October of 2009, around 2500. That is approximately 50 theaters per state (and growing rapidly).


-----------------------------------------------

And here is an excellent article about "The Quest for Ever-Higher Resolution"

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/77702

-----------------------------------------------




Good luck,


Neil



"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else".

Confucius


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Jonathan AlbertsRe: RED workflow, film out questions
by on Oct 7, 2009 at 4:47:43 pm

Neil--

well, thanks for your detailed reply. To be honest I'm really not considering other systems other than FCP & Avid. I can see there may be benefits to that route but what's best for our workflow for this project is FCP or Avid. Working at 4K would certainly be overkill for this feature and I know the producers would never support such a workflow. Still, the fact you're doing it is pretty cool.

Thanks for the links (though, one was broken). They're great information tools and I read all the .pdfs. which helped to educate on the 2k/4K dilemma. As a busy professional myself, these forums *are* a great help and your contribution is much appreciated.

thanks greatly.


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