OK, so here we have the long awaited Vegas Pro 8.0c. It was supposed to bring a myriad of fixes, including better support for AVCHD, including, among other things, the ability to export to 1920x1080 AVC to import into DVDA 5. Well, I can tell that the timeline playback has improved a bit, although it's still far from the smoothness of HDV. Sometimes it plays at 29.97, then for no good reason it drops down to 14 fps, then goes back to 29.97. This is in Preview quality, full size.
But the AVC export module is a bad joke. You can now export to 1920x1080, but you're constrained to a maximum of 16 Mbps. And no, I'm not saying that because it's the maximum bitrate in the bundled presets, but because if you select anything bigger than that, it will give you an error and render nothing. So what's the big advantage of 1920 at 16 Mbps when compared to 1440 at 15 Mbps? Probably nothing. I would have to do the math and my brain is too tired for that, but I'm guessing one more Megabit per second of data is not enough to make up for the increase in frame size, and it might be probably worse.
But that's not even the worst part. I started a new project, imported a few AVCHD clips that I had on my hard drive from my Canon HF100 camera, and selected a one minute loop. I started rendering it at 1920 16 Mbps AVC, using the bundled preset, not modifying anything. I was happy at first seeing that it used about 70% of my processor power, better than the 45% average that DVDA 5 uses. However, when it finished rendering, one of those nasty Microsoft Visual C++ error dialogs poped up, and goodbye Vegas.
Second try, also selected a one minute loop and rendered using the same preset. This time, when it finished rendering, it didn't even give me a BSOD. It simply crashed Windows so bad that it rebooted without warning, same as if I had pressed the reset button.
The third try I selected a 30 second loop . This one worked. The only render in 8.0c that worked so far.
Fourth try. I started a new project, imported files from a different card, and selected a one minute loop. Again rendered using the 16 Mbps AVC preset. It didn't even get to the end of the render. It rebooted the computer in the same way as the second time.
So after seeing this it's obvious to me that Sony and the people at Sony Creative Software don't see this as serious work. It's just a joke for them. Because don't tell me that they tested this thoroughly and their
computers didn't crash at all while rendering to AVC. I have an Intel Extreme series motherboard retail, an Intel Core 2 Quad also retail in box, OCZ Platinum RAM, so I would say I have a reliable computer, and in fact it is for everything else. Even if Vegas couldn't render to 1920 AVC in version 8.0b, I rendered about 90 minutes of footage from an MPEG-2 TS to 1440 AVC at 15 Mbps and it took forever, but it did not crash, and I rendered several other things to 1440 AVC 15 Mbps without a hitch.
And how is it possible that DVDA 5 can encode AVC at 20 Mbps in 1920x1080 but Vegas cannot? Shouldn't they be using the same dll or module or something? Shouldn't the encoder be shared? I was hoping that version c would spare me from having to render a long project to Huffyuv to then import into DVDA 5 and wait forever for it to encode to 1920 20 Mbps AVC, but obviously I'll have to keep waiting.
Then there is one very important issue for me, which is the absence of AVCHD smart rendering. I still don't get how is it possible that a toy editing software such as Pixela Imagemixer 3, which comes bundled with Canon AVCHD camcorders, does an excellent job at smart rendering AVCHD video and audio, and Sony Vegas doesn't provide that capability. Pixela is a small company, while Sony is a huge multinational that along with Panasonic created the AVCHD specification. So how is it possible that a tiny company like Pixela provides a basic capability such as smart rendering, and Sony doesn't? You can give me all the excuses you want, but to me there's no valid excuse for that. When I just shoot home videos, or videos from places I go as a tourist, instead of editing in Vegas, which I would find much more enjoyable, I'm forced to edit in Imagemixer, which is close to torture. Why do I have to do that? Because Vegas, the suposedly professional NLE, doesn't give me smart rendering, so if I have to render a one hour video to AVC again, it would take me about 4 or 5 hours, and the picture quality would be degraded. But with Imagemixer, while a torture to edit in, I render the whole hour in a few minutes, and the resulting video has the exact same quality as the original, except maybe a few frames around cuts, but to be honest, I have never spotted lower quality in the frames that are supposed to be recompressed.
But going back to the actual bugs, I think that this is downright pathetic. They wasted time including new features such as the trimmer monitor, that while it may be nice to have, took time from fixing bugs, and we keep having a product that we paid money for, but it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. To see one simple example of their lack of care and testing, go no further than selecting the AVC export module and then the Blu-Ray 1920x1080 60i at 10 Mbps preset. Then go into the preset itself and you'll see that even though the title says 60i, the preset has PAL 25 fps preselected. The same preset, but at 16 mbps, has 29.97 correctly selected. How can you release a update to the public without checking each and every export preset of every module to make sure that the settings are correct? I doubt that I would ever use that bitrate, but what if I needed to use it and didn't bother to actually check inside the preset itself? Then I would end up with a useless PAL video.
Here's another example of this train wreck, at least when it comes to AVCHD. I wanted to see if it behaved any better when using the new module to import files directly from the AVCHD camcorder, so I connected the HF100 and used the new importer. After it finished importing I dragged two clips onto the timeline. I began scrubbing over those clips, and one second later the system crashed, again doing a straight reboot, not just a program crash, but the entire system. That's the quality of this software. I don't know what it may have been in the past, I heard lots of good things about it, and after I started using I liked the interface a lot, albeit not everything in it, but many things of it, enough to make it my favorite NLE if it had a lot less bugs. But as it is, it's useless for anything serious, at least when it comes to AVCHD. I really wish it wasn't, because I really like editing in Vegas when it works. But then we wait several months for the update that suposedly it's going to make it better, and when it finally comes, it crashes worse than Windows 95 when it just had come out. I might even have to go back to 8.0b just so I can edit AVCHD that I can output to DVD!!!
I think that I will start putting money aside to buy a good Mac Pro with Final Cut Studio on it. At least Apple takes their software more seriously. I don't like the company too much because they sell hugely overpriced hardware with few choices and they have a big head, but at least when it comes to software, they are more serious. I've used Final Cut Pro at different stages in the last few years and I've had a few crashes here and there, but for the most part, it works. It allows you to do your job. Vegas just doesn't.
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Sep 12, 2008 at 3:20:08 am
Great rant.
I've been using it for a couple months almost exclusively with AVCHD, both long and short form, and no hitches that you report. The worst hitch there has been was a bug with the trimmer and new tools.
Perhaps your system has flaws? My Macbook Pro, several desktop systems, and an older VIAO dual core are all/have all been running AVCHD on them. SR12, CX7, CX12, Panasonic SD5 footage.
Not doubting your issues, but at the same time, it seems like there is more to it than what you're presenting.
Perhaps we're really lucky. We have 7 editors all working on 8c...that have been for a while now.
And...when you find *anything* that edits AVCHD "like HDV" or any other format...you let the world know, K?
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Sebastian Alvarez on Sep 12, 2008 at 3:29:11 am
Fine, let's suppose for a moment that my system actually has flaws, even though it's an Intel motherboard, Intel CPU, OCZ Platinum RAM, Western Digital hard drives. Then why didn't 8.0b crash at all when scrubbing AVCHD timelines, or when rendering said timelines to 1440 AVC? Why did 8.0c crashed my whole system about 7 times already, when 8.0b and 8.0a, when they crashed, only crashed Vegas but not the rest, not even one time that I can recall?
And yes, I know AVCHD editing at this point is well inferior to HDV editing on every pro NLE, but at least neither Apple nor Adobe wrote the AVCHD spec. Sony and Panasonic did. That gives Sony an advantage, doesn't it?
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Sep 12, 2008 at 3:47:09 am
Apple nor Adobe wrote the AVCHD spec. Sony and Panasonic did. That gives Sony an advantage, doesn't it?
not in the *least.* Not at all.
It's that sort of assumption that seems to be driving your points in the post, Sebastian. Not only would it be illegal for Sony/Panasonic to have that advantage, but it's a mistake to think that whatever says "Sony" communicates with other Sony gear. Why do you suppose Sony Vaio's have Adobe Premiere on them, and have had for years? Because Sony can buy Premiere cheaper as an OEM from Adobe than from Sony Creative Software.
They're completely, utterly, totally unrelated. As are most corporate umbrella corps.
Back to your 'puter.
Couldn't tell you why your system crashes with AVCHD with c vs b.
You open a b project in c, and it crashes?
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Sebastian Alvarez on Sep 12, 2008 at 1:03:33 pm
No, I still haven't opened any B projects in C. I wanted to try it out as cleanly as possibly first, to the point of even uninstalling B and then installing C, and I started a 1920x1080 60i project and dragged a few AVCHD files onto the timeline to play around with them. That's when I started scrubbing, and then selecting a one minute loop, and then the rest that I already described.
If I knew, for example, that maybe my Nvidia card is to blame, I would buy an ATI, but I have no way of knowing that for sure unless I actually buy the ATI, and if I do, and it's not, then I would have to pay a restocking fee to return it. However, since version B wasn't crashing much at all, I have to assume that these are bugs caused by version C.
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by John Frey on Sep 14, 2008 at 7:27:10 pm
Just opened a B project in C on two different workstations with no problems whatsoever. In addition, render tests in C compared to the same project in B showed a 15% decrease in render times.
John D. Frey
25 Year owner/operator of two California-based production studios.
Digital West Video Productions of San Luis Obispo and Inland Images of Lake Elsinore
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Mike Hall on Sep 28, 2008 at 10:08:06 pm
I have completed my first long form edit in AVCHD 1920 x 1080i 50Hz. Originally I started out with 8.0c and had the similar stability problems as described by Sebastian, many Windows exception errors when previewing the time-line. This crashed Vegas but not Windows (XP). I also notice 8.0c was much slower in previewing AVCHD compared to 8.0b. So having reverted back to 8.0b, the crashing and stability problems have gone and the preview speed is now very close to DV preview speed. My system is a quad processor PC and is very stable with 8.0b and all other programs. At this stage, my confidence in 8.0c is low, I will stay with 8.0b until 8.0d arrives. Vegas has been an extremely stable editing environment until 8.0c arrived.
BTW The Vegas NAB event was excellent, it would be great to have similar meetings here in Europe.
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Bob Jackson on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:03:54 am
Same problem here on 3 different workstation.
Crash the vegas software after a 3% of a 45 minutes project rendering in avc or mpeg or avi.
No problem with 8.0b and mt2s beta dll.
The avchd videos are taken with an hf100.
Waiting 8.0d or CS4. :(
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Hari Viswanathan on Sep 21, 2008 at 7:11:37 pm
Same problem for me as well. I can render video from a canon HF10 on 8.0b at 1440x1080. However, with 8.0c 1440x1080 and 1920x1080 both crash. The project does not crash at the same point of the render each time. First time it crashes at 10%, second 5% and third 12%. I have restored my vegas to 8.0b since I can't get anything to work on 8.0c. My machine is a dell quad processor with 4 GB ram. Any ideas?
A few questions about the upgrade based on earlier posts:
1. Is the 1920x1080 really an improvement since the bit rate is similar to before?
2. Is the bit rate the main parameter since the 1920 vs 1440 is just a different par ratio? Or is there real extra information in the 1920 render?
3. For 8.0b I'm not sure what audio setting to use. It seems to render a m2ts file, I need to select 5.1 surround under audio options. When I play this m2ts file back with the pixela player on my computer, the audio seems to mostly playback on the right channel. I think the HF10 just records in stereo (not 5.1 surround), however I can't figure out how to get vegas to render m2ts stereo (8.0c has this option but this crashes for me).
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Stan Hearle on Oct 20, 2008 at 8:25:20 pm
Hi there,
You must excuse my lack of knowledge on many aspects of this subject. To be brief, I bought Vegas Movie Studio, started editing videos, had some sucess, upgraded to pro 8, upgraded video to HD and found that I needed Blu-Ray to progress. Then I was offered the download (8.0c) at the weekend. Great. Projects in AVCHD before I make the move to Blu-Ray. Put a HD project together and it crashes at around frame 148 when I render in AVCHD. I notice it crashes when the title starts to switch to the footage. When I remove the titles it crashes immediately. I do question my investment now but maybe somebody can push me gently in the right direction. I have also upgraded my computer system. I am sure I will get there eventually and make a useful contribution to these forums (I am a computer systems validation specialist and I used to design CG systems for the Commodore Amiga). So please anybody out there tell me where to start to solve this issue.
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Hari Viswanathan on Oct 21, 2008 at 1:11:03 pm
Hi Stan,
I'm not an expert with vegas either but I'll tell you what my experience has been. I cannot get vegas 8.0c to work with my canon avchd files. Apparently quite a few people have this same problem but not everyone. I have an intel quad and from reading on the sony forum many with the quad-avchd-vegas8.0c have problems. I wrote sony and they say they have duplicated the problem in house and will most likely release an update. But they won't say when or if they really will.
So what do I do. I went back to sony vegas 8.0b. It renders avchd at 1440x1080 just fine without crashing. I then have successfully been making bluray projects with dvd architect 5.0. They play fine in my blu-ray player. Another nice feature is that I can burn bluray to dvd-r's and still play hd video on my blu-ray player. The dvd-r only hold 30 minutes of hd footage but this serves me fine since I mostly have home movies that are short. Plus they are much cheaper than bd-r's. To do this I followed the instructions on this forum. Hope this helps and let me know if you have more questions.
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Stan Hearle on Oct 23, 2008 at 11:38:52 am
Thanks Hari,
I will try that after I have selected some HD downloaded through the software that came with the camera (Sony) as opposed to the new import from 8.0d. If that doesnt work I will do what you suggest.
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Mike Hall on Nov 15, 2008 at 10:12:48 am
I have has the same issues with 8.0c but the problem might be caused in another area. I recently bought a quad processor 6600. Prior to installing this 8.0c was mostly stable and AVCHD at 1920 x 1080i 50Hz was OK and faster on preview that 8.0b, with my old dual core 6600.
After the quad processor was installed everything changed, Vegas started crashing when using AVCHD files. I have reverted back to 8.0b with the quad processor and Vegas is more stable. I have yet to change back to my old two core processor and reload 8.0c.
This is why, many people including Sony, may not not seen the problems with 8.0c. In MHO it has not been fully tested with quad core processing. It is possible a quad core may not give any benefits over a dual core anyway, but that's a new subject..
Re: Vegas 8.0c. Are you kidding me???? by Tim Neary on Nov 4, 2008 at 6:28:45 pm
Interesting as after some weeks of frustration with the support etc from the principle i have also gone back to V8b as *c simply failes to produce on JVC 720p
