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Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?

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RaidernealDoes rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 17, 2007 at 6:07:49 am

Hello,

I hope this isn't a dumb question (although it wouldn't be the first time)...

I have several small clips that I plan on rendering individually to MPEG2. I then plan to import these clips to a new timeline and then add swipes (a wipe and sound effect) to connect them together. I then will render the whole piece in MPEG2. Does rendering these clips twice cause any loss of quality?

Thanks in advance for your replies.



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Terje A. BergesenRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 17, 2007 at 7:06:02 am

If you render to MPEG-2 and then edit again adding effects, you will see a loss in quality, at the wipes etc, quite possibly a very noticeable loss in quality.

Is there any reason not to add the swipes before rendering to MPEG-2, this seems like a roundabout way of doing things where both work flow and end result would suffer.

--
Terje A. Bergesen : http://terje.bergesen.info/


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FuddamRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 17, 2007 at 7:06:06 am

yes



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DSE/SpotRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 17, 2007 at 12:58:52 pm

To expand on Fuddam's response, the degradation is format-dependent. If you are working with say...DV AVI files, then rendering cuts-only won't affect the format. If you're rendering from MPEG, it's going to be degraded. MPEG to MPEG will lose a lot of information. Try it and see if the amount of loss is acceptable to you.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer


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raidernealRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 18, 2007 at 1:06:32 am

Thanks for the input... Is there a better way to accomplish my task...

I have several interviews that are on my timeline but are out-of-order from where I need them to be for my finished project. This is why I planned on rendering each individually and then importing them in the correct order onto a new timeline.

These clips are in HDV 60i and will be burned to DVD (SD) for my finished project.

Is there a better way to do this where I won't lose quality upon my second render?

Thanks in advance for your replies


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DSE/SpotRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 18, 2007 at 3:43:10 am

More information is very helpful.
Since it's HDV, you won't need to worry about it.
but I don't understand the "order" thing. Why not just take the clips and arrange them prior to rendering? This is exactly what an NLE is for.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer


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RaidernealRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 18, 2007 at 6:22:57 pm

DSE,

Thanks again for your reply. I've heard a lot of great things about you on the web regarding your knowledge of Vegas. It's great to see you on this forum. I'm looking forward to ordering some of your Vegas training DVDs.

Interviews: The problem is that these interview clips average about three minutes long. They have a lot of "b-roll" footage above the actual interview footage and the interviews have also been edited to the point where I would need to move a lot of footage (average of 50-60 clips per interview) around to place them in the correct order on the timeline. Is there a way where I can copy and move the entire segment (all the pieces/clips before they have been rendered) as a whole to a new area on the timeline?

Thanks again for any info you can provide.



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FuddamRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 18, 2007 at 6:33:40 pm

1) press D to change the cursor, until you get the area selection cursor

2) highlight all the A/B roll material in a partic interview, by dragging the cursor over it

3) change the cursor back to the normal arrow cursor, and drag that material to a new location. If you find that a bit iffy, first press 'G' to group it all, then moving it (whether ripple is on or not) will be as a single object

Could also cut/paste it, if you prefer

:)



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DSE/SpotRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 18, 2007 at 8:20:53 pm

This is more or less the method I'd use, or if there is a lot of content to be cut, you might consider opening two instances of Vegas, cutting from one and pasting into the other, building an entirely new project in the second instance, with content from the timeline of the first instance. One instance of Vegas on each screen....

Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Aerial Camera/Instructor
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer


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RaidernealRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 20, 2007 at 3:43:41 pm

Wow! Thanks for the help. That really makes things easier.

How do I create a new "instance" in Vegas where I can post these interviews into a new project? If I open a new project, it makes me completely leave the other time-line.

Again, I really appreciated the info.



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jeditdvRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 20, 2007 at 4:03:15 pm

A "new instance" simply means opening/starting Vegas again. You can start Vegas multiple times allowing you to work on multiple timelines at once.

Edward Troxel
JETDV Scripts


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sameer chemmalaRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Dec 28, 2007 at 6:12:48 pm

download file cutter&joiner (software) to avoid rendering in two times.rename (x).mpg(s) extensions as 01.0001,01.0002.....etc.open the software,click join tab&join.then rename the finished file as 01.mpg and get ur video without any loss of quality.in this way many music and video formats can be joined without any loss of quality, taking an attension upon the 'extensions'.



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Michael UribeWhere is the option to - Selectively Render Multiple Timeline Segments/Regions from a Timeline?
by on Dec 22, 2009 at 1:56:05 am

I'm actually exploring options dealing with the same problem indicated in your post (i.e., timeline segments with multiple layers, need to render in various orders into final timeline without rearranging actual timeline elements.)

I've explored this and have come up with a description of the desired task - Render Multiple Timeline Segments - as designated by ?? perhaps regions?

Thus, this desired rendering task is (following are named regions ontop of your timeline):
[Open Title][Interview 1][Interview 2][More stuf x][End Credits]

Now, when you hit the "Render As" option I would like the following options (and not just the "render looped region only" - which is very mickey mouse).


Render as:
1. Looped region
2. Region specific
- Select Regions
- Specify Order of Regions (up, down, etc.)


Then, when you click region specific, it gives you the option to then "click" on a box for each reason to include in the final rendered clip.

Walla, the final rendered once video was then assembled using the "region specific" option - which is not available in Vegas 8.1.

So, what do we do?

I've played with the option of using the tools - batch - regions.
This, however, simply cuts up the rendering into region specific clips. Good/bad - bad if as in other responses, if you then take those freshly rendered regions and assemble the into another new timeline and then place them in what ever order you want. Then, you render (unfortunately) again in the identical format you selected to make the region clips.

Now, as the other posters have said, mpeg2 re-rendering, is a lossy process. However, other formats perhaps are not lossy. I am using MainConcepts MP4 at a custom format. Not sure if it is tremendously lossy, at first glance I don't see it.

So, arrange your timeline where each region has a little black at each end, and at the begin of each new region. That way, each region is rendered with a complete black ending to it, so when the next region is added next to it, the final video will not show a jump in the screen.

I've also just added the script below this post to explore whether it will add region specific rendering functionality to the game.

If not, I'm lucky to use the currently available tools/batch/regions/ option on the system and then re-rendering the clips after that. Sure, multiple rendering sucks.

Another Option:

If you feel comfortable or if your project is not that specific, you can then incorporate all the rendered regions (using the tools/batch/regions option) into dVD ARchitect. Then, create a playlist that will play them in the order you want.

Problem with this is that your repeat title will only repeat the segment in the playlist vs. looping your entire timeline as concieved in vegas.

Another problem is that you'll need to add a good 4-5 seconds black screen at the end of each segment. For some reason, the playlist hopping from one segment to the other seems to loose the end and intros to some stuff I've played with using this option.

Like for example, the end credits. Instead of including them in each video segment, use the playlist feature in DVDArch, and then just have each playlist end with that clip. Again, worked, but a little jumpy, and lost the nice fade in because I lost a couple of seconds during the jump, resolved by adding extra black space. But, that "black time" can also be annoying and disrupt the pace of your piece - and that does matter when it matters.





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Edward TroxelRe: Where is the option to - Selectively Render Multiple Timeline Segments/Regions from a Timeline?
by on Dec 22, 2009 at 3:48:18 pm

Tools - Scripting - Batch Render will let you render the regions separately but in one step.


Edward Troxel
JETDV Scripts


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Michael UribeNeed to have Vegas render 1) selected timeline Regions 2) in a specific order 3) and into one final file
by on Dec 22, 2009 at 6:12:59 pm

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

Scenario begin:
A master timeline exists, where the production will be finalized as one entire feature. However, there are certain venues where the production needs to be broken apart into pieces (the car chase, the love scene, the murder scene, the crash scene, etc.). However, to simply chop out a segment, without having it be bookended with titles/endcredis, is simply too half ass. So the chopped out segments need the original intro, or recreated intros, title screen, and final end credit screens for information and copyright purposes, etc.
Scenario end.

I do discuss the tool you mention, but as I said, that only renders "any and all" regions labeled in a timeline. Then, those rendered Regions are then separately stored as individual video files on the harddrive. So it breaks the timeline apart by Regions.

What I'm looking for, and the previous poster would benefit from, is to have control of which Regions are rendered (that is to select specific Regions, which have been already labeled in the timeline, and then specify the program to then render those regions, in a specific order, and into one final file onto the hard drive.

So Vegas needs to add the following render option to the user:

Render as / by region / specify to join/separate those regions / if joining, then specify order to join those regions / give it a file name.

Heck why not be able to designate output format as well as the user already can do with the simple Render as feature already in the program.

As it is now, I'm rendering the regions on my timeline. (Intro, event 1, event 2, event 3 (modified), event x, end credits, and then re-rendering those clips in another vegas instance, in an order of my choice.

When there are complicated layers in a Region, the idea of cuting, pasting, ripple editing (hoping the audio envelopes, event keys, etc all follow that ripple edit) is just not worth it.

That means one has to then specifically watch each clip, verify nothing was lost, and then drag the freshly rendered Regions onto another time line, in the order preferred, and then, once again, re-render again to simply join them.

Not a very efficient workflow- and I'm not inclined to research a good joiner application. Those seem to be limited to certain video formats (avi, etc). And agin, one has to re-render for that joining process to complete (degrades quality, and increases productino time).

Maybe I'll create an animation of what the goal is here.

AS it stands now, the Tools - Scripts - Batch - Region option simply finds any and all regions, and individually renders those regions into a bunch of separate files on the hard drive.


ImageAcquisitions.com
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FuddamRe: Does rendering twice in the same format cause loss of quality?
by on Aug 18, 2007 at 7:56:32 am

um..........you happy making cuts using the 'S' key, at the cursor position on the timeline?

then shuffling the clips around?

am just trying to ascertain whether we're starting on the same ground

:)



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