New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated
by ImageMixer
on
Nov 1, 2007 at 4:17:01 am
Greetings All - New to the board. I an a Davinci colorist in NYC.I have been at it for 20 years now.I began working on the Pallette system in the '80's, then a DaVinci Classic, 888 ,Renaissance and for the past five or so years a 2k strapped to a HD/SD Cintel DSX Telecine. Obviously I have seen alot of cahnges in the industry here in NYC in the 24 years I have been in it. I have also seen the train at the end of the tunnel. So------ I have begun hammering out a proposal for a Color Suite for a group of clients. Here goes- Two 3.0GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon; 8GB (4 x 2GB)mem; 3 hard drive bays @500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s each; Mac Pro RAID card; ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512MB (2 x dual-link DVI); one Apple Cinema 20'' Display panel (have not decided on a master monitor yet);MCS Spectrum/3000 control panel.MAN - I wish I could budget for Tangent,but no way that's happening.How's taht sounding so far,right moves? Would love some advice on a plug in filter to help w/bringing detail into blown out and over exposed whites(gonna miss that from the 2k) and a N/R filter.Also--render times.I do alot of promo work from Digi-Beta and DVCPRO HD 720 so I'm not so concerned w/that.But I also do alot of 30 & 60 mn longform work in the same formats. I plan to work in 7-10 min clips typically w/alot of power window vignetting,defusion as an overall vibe(takes the video feel out of alot of stuff & the ladies on screen love it)secondary corrections,etc. So i'd appreciate some feedback on render times.I'll be playing out to dgi or DVCPro HD 720 after rendering.There may be some HDCAM 1080i down the road too.Also ,anyone familiar w/programming rides in color. Wondering about the ability to insert corrections inside the EDL too.Phew-that's enough babbling for now. Glad to be part of these forums. Thanks for reading and hope to hear from you guys. Peace - G.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 1, 2007 at 10:39:38 am
[ImageMixer]"(have not decided on a master monitor yet);"
Look at TV Logic. We've done a brief demo on them and will have one here probably next week for at least a week to really hammer on it.
http://blogs.creativecow.net/node/299
[ImageMixer]"Would love some advice on a plug in filter to help w/bringing detail into blown out and over exposed whites(gonna miss that from the 2k) and a N/R filter."
Graeme Nattress has the only filters available for Color and they are quite good.
www.nattress.com
[ImageMixer]"Also--render times.I do alot of promo work from Digi-Beta and DVCPRO HD 720 so I'm not so concerned w/that.But I also do alot of 30 & 60 mn longform work in the same formats"
At the moment I'm getting horrendous render times in DVCPro HD. 4- 6 hours for 22 minute episode programming. Use to be about 2.5 hours in the old Final Touch HD. Hoping the updates due out soon will address this.
A nice example of a daVinci house that has installed a Color Suite is CineFilm Labs here in Atlanta. Here's a link to their room.
http://www.cinefilmlab.com/filmout.html
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Stop Staring Start Grading with Apple Color The new Color Training DVD now available!
http://store.creativecow.net/p/66/stop_staring_and_start_grading_with_apple_color
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Noah Kadner on Nov 1, 2007 at 10:40:36 am
Sounds solid so far but a suite lives and dies by its main monitor so that's a key decision. Also I'd at least make a call to Tangent to see about deals. If you're color correcting 40 hours a week or more that's also a decision you'll live by and the Tangent controls are almost required for full-time Color users in my opinion.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ramoman on Nov 1, 2007 at 2:29:09 pm
The great thing about the Tangent Devices panels is you can buy them as modules. The CP-200 series has four. I had the CP-200 K and BK. I was a daVinci colorist as well, starting with the Classic in 1984 in Dallas. I tested the JL Cooper panel and hands down the Tangent Devices panels win.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 1, 2007 at 7:49:14 pm
>>Would love some advice on a plug in filter to help w/bringing detail into blown out >>and over exposed whites(gonna miss that from the 2k)...
You're going to miss a lot more than that. Like the simple ability to hit "play" and see your material play smoothly and in real time. Or the ability to color correct through a dissolve and instantly see the result. Or a button to instantly apply the correction from either the previous scene or two shots back (a real time saver when doing longform work). Or, as you've already noted, being able to play out the material in real time as soon as you're finished color correcting. And not having to reconstruct it in another program to do so. Or the ability to lay off in real time and to multiple machines. And that's the simple stuff.
I'm not telling you not to do this, but you should understand - loud and clear - what you're getting yourself into. Efficiency becomes a meaningless term when 4 or 5 hours of rendering is involved. And unless you're willing to invest in multiple workstations and central, shared storage, your room is down when this rendering is taking place, thus severely limiting the amount of clients you can handle in any given day. Of course, the cost is lower, but your business has to be able to deal with the much longer turnarounds that are inevitable with this change. In terms of equipment, you're going to need a lot more and a lot faster storage if you want reliability, speed, and the ability to do uncompressed work. And backup storage for when that fast storage fails. I would suggest looking at something like a Terrablock, but that's only one possibility.
Doing things on the cheap is never as cheap as you think it's going to be. Just because Apple decided to give away a piece of software essentially for free doesn't mean you can build a professional environment out of it for the same price.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ewooewoo on Nov 1, 2007 at 8:03:19 pm
Hi Mike,
Yes.....to use this system professionally you need to have a professional, not amateur approach to it - organized and with full understanding of the system and all it's quirks. Color really is for the professional - much like a Da Vinci.
So, for $10,000 - $15,000 you can set up a professional color grading system capable of handling just about any video format. If your volume of work and turnaround times necessitate, set up a render station and shared storage (that's the kind of setup I am usually working with). Otherwise, for many people, rendering on lunchbreaks and overnight gives them all the efficiency they need (presuming they don't need to use Color at the same time as they are sleeping, for example).
Yes, it works in a professional environment ( I know as I color broadcast TV and indie movies with it).
Yes, it is not perfect.
Yes, you need to know what you are doing to use it successfully (I presume that to learn all the ins and outs of a Da Vinci, including setting up the workstation, roundtripping to tape (and the inherent limitions of that particular workflow), and so on, takes more that a 3 page "Getting Started" PDF).
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 1, 2007 at 8:31:27 pm
>I presume that to learn all the ins and outs of a Da Vinci, including setting up the >workstation, roundtripping to tape (and the inherent limitions of that particular >workflow), and so on, takes more that a 3 page "Getting Started" PDF
I get the basic gist of what you're trying to say, but FYI, there is no "roundtripping to tape" when you're working on a DaVinci. The system works in real time and passes the video live in real time, with the corrections you've done. You use a VTR (or a DDR, whatever video device you want) as the source and control it directly. You then set up another VTR (or whatever) as a record machine and use the built in TLC editing system to roll them together when you play out the color corrected material. There is no ingest, there is no rendering, and there is no additional program to put the timeline back together. For video sourced material there is nothing more efficient. For a data based workflow, that is not necessarily the case. It really depends what you are doing, what your clients are doing, what you get as a source, and what needs to be delivered and when.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ewooewoo on Nov 1, 2007 at 9:40:24 pm
Sure,
Of course there is the issue that you color correction is baked into your tape, if you need to make any changes. Also, there is the time it took to get a final onlined program to tape in the first place ( rendered, checked, tape deck prepped if necessary (hired, patched in, menu settings correct etc), then real time pass to tape, then check the tape. Then when the program is done, you will often have to re capture the tape and insert it into a sequence with graphics, text overlay etc which usually will not have gone to color correction, then go out to tape again.
Of course the particular workflow will vary from project to project.
Nevertheless, your savings in one part of the process are at least partly at the cost of more to do at other stages.
As someone who has made plenty of digibeta, IMX, D5 & HDcam masters for broadcast, prior to sending them off to a Da Vinci for Color correction, this entire roundtrip is not necessarily so fast. From the point of view of a DaVinci colorist who only deals with the color correction, and not really much in a round trip sense, it might seem fast. However in terms of the overall post workflow, it is not necessarily much, if any, faster or more efficient.
Also, add to the fact that if you are doing a FCP round trip, even if you went to a dedicated colorist at their own facility, when you come back, if you make a change to one or two shots, you can color those yourself, replicating what the colorist did, using the exact same tools and workflow that the colorist used. Great efficiency and money saver there.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 1, 2007 at 10:05:26 pm
Most Da Vinci 2K's that I know of live in full service video facilities, not in small, independent, desktop based and by inference, limited service companies. Your comments seem to be from the point of view of one of the latter category, and not from the point of view of a facility that actually has a DaVinci installation in the mix. Color correction is "baked into the tape" because the tape is the final product of the color correction. The corrections are also stored as a list in the DaVinci that can be recalled at any time. The source for that color correction is a non-color corrected master, which is the final product of the online, regardless of whether that's done on a nonlinear or linear assembly system. Tape equipment in a full service facility is not "hired" and "patched in" on a job by job basis. It is permanently installed and available in the facility. Patching it in takes three key presses on a router. If any changes occur after color correction, they are done on the non-color corrected master by insert editing, and that master is then passed to the DaVinci with the original color correction list in place. The changed shots are then insert edited into the color corrected master directly from the DaVinci. All of this happens in real time - you pop the cassette into the VTR, put it in remote, and hit play. You don't "re-capture" anything, you only insert the changes. It's all very straightforward and extremely efficient, provided you're in a facility that has the equipment to do it - which most DaVinci equipped facilities do. They have to, in part because most of the large facilities (I'm talking primarily about those in Los Angeles, but the same applies everywhere) have to turn around things like network television programs on a brutally short schedule.
Points of view vary based on one's personal circumstances. But that's not what this thread is about, at least I don't think it is. What it's about is things that someone who has operated on a DaVinci for a number of years will either have to change or go without if they switch to a software based operation based on Apple's Color program. That's the basis for the comparisons I've been making.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by JP Owens on Nov 1, 2007 at 10:41:12 pm
I agree, in the main, with what Mike is saying, and if you are used to immediate results and realtime throughput, no waiting, this solution is not for you. It is also a massive headache of reconstruction on complex timelines, so editorial skills are required. Color is also very choosy in an arbitrary way about what you actually see displayed if there are Motion tabs and/or filters in the FCP timeline. And, of course, forget about seeing transitions and composites, which is both an advantage and disadvantage. Advantage to the do-it-yourselfers, but if you are unfamiliar with the secret herbs and spices that your friendly neighborhood FCP editor has been sprinkling in the mix--- you are at their tender mercies as to whether the project will even load or not. Lots of deal breakers that are perfectly legal in FCP. COLOR is NOT FCP.
As to the Tangent panels. If you consider them outside your budget mix, you will be building yourself not a color suite, but a shrine of pure frustration. Even if it is "just" the BK panel, as a daVinci colorist used to maybe even using both hands to mold the image, you will find the mouse/stylus one-parameter-at-a-time intolerable.
"Round tripping" off and on tape is a path that I have seen where the various versions of a project get digitized, exported, re-digitized over and over again to get from stage to stage.
Not very efficient, but hey 'digital' is "bulletproof" so thats what the technology was made to do.... right?... Not to mention that the codecs are ripping the image apart every time. Maybe better not to go there...
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by JP Owens on Nov 4, 2007 at 5:41:12 pm
"so, for $10,000 - $15,000 you can set up a professional color grading system capable of handling just about any video format."
Well, that's not entirely true. Yes, it covers the absolute bare-bones requirement of a MacPro-8core, Kona3, 23" monitor, Final Cut Studio2, and some extra memory.
Okay, so that will get you DVCProHD, and probably ProRes422HQ.
To go beyond this really requires a faster Media Server, probably fibre optic -- eSATA can't sustain the data flow for uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2 1920x1080, let alone 2K. Final Touch wanted a dual Media Vault or AppleSAN... preferably in the 8-10 TeraByte range -- and RAID 3 if you please, because this is a professional environment. Let's say $30K.
How abut a professional grade monitor -- $13K plus.
Tangent panels minimum BK-unit at ~$6K.... x3 to get the deluxe package, plus another $6K if you really really want all four. Potential price tag = $24K.
Scope? Lets try the Videotek TVM-900 (barebones no options, no audio monitor) $13K.
Oh, and you want to monitor audio? Cheapy consumer receiver $800, pro-ish monitors 800/pr... up to 5 monitors, because after all we live in a Surround World now... really, with a modest Sub... oh... let's say $4K-5K.
I could do that MasterCard thing... but the bottom line, excluding any videotape decks...($27K for an AJ1400 or about $140K for an SRW-5500 if you want to do real HD, but do remember you will start buying TeraByte external drives and going through them like water at about $300 to $750 a pop)... oh, about $75K.
Really, still chicken feed compared to even a BaseLight One. Not even the price of a daVinci 2K control panel....(not the CPU).
Now consider that some of us paid up to $32K for Final Touch2K (ie, the software alone) a little over a year ago (including the theoretical Support/Maintenance package).
Frankly this obscene price change is what has caused the perceptual change in the client-perceived value of the software. I mean "how good could it be if they have to hang a pork chop around its neck to get the dog to play with it?"
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 4, 2007 at 11:03:29 pm
[JP Owens]"To go beyond this really requires a faster Media Server, probably fibre optic"
Nope, SATA is just fine. We have the MaxxDigital SAS/SATA arrays here. Almost 500MB/s throughput in RAID 5, even faster in RAID 0. Can easily do up to 2K.
There are also other SATA arrays out there as well that can easily cover Uncompressed HD and 2K.
[JP Owens]"How abut a professional grade monitor -- $13K plus."
TV Logic makes a beautiful professional grade monitor for $8,000 US. It's the 24", we've tested it for about 2 hours and we'll be testing it again for a full week over the next two weks. It's supposed to be delivered back here again by Friday.
[JP Owens]"Oh, and you want to monitor audio? Cheapy consumer receiver $800, pro-ish monitors 800/pr... up to 5 monitors, because after all we live in a Surround World now... really, with a modest Sub... oh... let's say $4K-5K."
Do you really need surround sound to color or edit today? We don't. If surround sound is required, well that's going to be handled by our sound designers anyway, so we don't have it installed in any of our suites. We have KRK Rokit 5's and they are fantastic edit suite audio monitors for about $100 - $150 each.
So yes, you can spend the dollars you mention, but you don't have to spend quite that much as newer options have become available.
[JP Owens]"Now consider that some of us paid up to $32K for Final Touch2K (ie, the software alone) a little over a year ago (including the theoretical Support/Maintenance package)."
That's absolutely highway robbery and quite frankly Apple's offer of a free copy of Studio 2 really doesn't compensate all the folks who paid the full price of the software. I was upset enough about paying $5,000 for HD. My only condolence is now we have three copies of Color instead of one.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by JP Owens on Nov 5, 2007 at 7:01:42 pm
Walter... you were concerned about bottlenecks and rendering times? Hmmm...
Oh, and my bad... those were Canadian prices, so you know what we are up against here with our vendors and resellers.
Maybe there will be a bit of relief with the weakness of the US dollar (no, I'm not under any illusions that Canada has suddenly become some sort of currency SuperPower)... but its even more expensive outside North America -- UK and Aus-NZ particularly.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 5, 2007 at 7:07:38 pm
[JP Owens]"Walter... you were concerned about bottlenecks and rendering times? Hmmm..."
Yep, that's my big concern right now.
With the last version of Final Touch HD we ran, I think it was 2.6, I could render a 22 minute episode of DVCPro HD in about 1.5 - 2 hours.
Right now it is taking 4 - 6 hours.
The only reason I'm still doing this is just that it really does look amazing when I'm done and I just have tweaked our workflow to allow this to happen and still make the deadlines. Hopefully render times will be addressed shortly.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 1, 2007 at 11:23:51 pm
[Mike Most]"You're going to miss a lot more than that. Like the simple ability to hit "play" and see your material play smoothly and in real time."
Definitely won't play smoothly, but depending on how fast your drives are, you get a never nice proxy playback. I use DVCPro HD and am able to see a realtime playback very nicely.
[Mike Most]"Or a button to instantly apply the correction from either the previous scene or two shots back (a real time saver when doing longform work)."
Simply grab the Grade on the shot you want and drag it to the shot to be applied to.
Or highlight a series of shots and apply that grade across a series of shots.
Or save the Grade, highlight all the shots to apply to, and double click the Grade.
[Mike Most]"And unless you're willing to invest in multiple workstations and central, shared storage, your room is down when this rendering is taking place, thus severely limiting the amount of clients you can handle in any given day."
That's one of the beauties of the low cost for all of this. You CAN build multiple workstations, though you don't necessarily need shared storage. We have three HD suites running off local storage.
A single Colorist could easily equip 2 or 3 workstations in a single Color suite to work on multiple project simultaneously and still not come close to the cost of a single daVinci.
What I see daVinci artists really giving up is real realtime. Realtime application of the grade and realtime ability to play out to tape.
What I see daVinci artists gaining is the ability to start their own business while maintaining the same high quality their clients are used to.
Definitely a trade off and a lot of daVinci artists will not want to adjust their workflow to Color, but those that do adjust have a wonderful opportunity handed to them. Especially once Apple gets all the bugs that Silicon Color has left behind in the software.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Stop Staring Start Grading with Apple Color The new Color Training DVD now available!
http://store.creativecow.net/p/66/stop_staring_and_start_grading_with_apple_color
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 2, 2007 at 12:15:56 am
>>Simply grab the Grade on the shot you want and drag it to the shot to be applied to.
Walter, I don't think you've ever actually operated a DaVinci, at least not as a full time colorist using one every day. So I'm going to say that you don't really understand what I was describing, but my guess is that ImageMixer does. DaVincis allow a very fluid workflow that doesn't require constant manipulation with a mouse, or the distraction of having to look at a different display than the one showing your image. This in turn allows for a lot of efficiency with better continuity. Like I said, I think ImageMixer understands what I was getting at.
>What I see daVinci artists gaining is the ability to start their own business while >maintaining the same high quality their clients are used to.
I think you're making an assumption that I really don't happen to share, and that's the notion that everyone wants their own business. Successful colorists do quite well financially, and they do that without having to deal with the pressures of being a business owner, a sales entity, and the responsible party when things don't go perfectly down the line. Most colorists I know have no desire to run their own business, they just want to do their best work. While I have no doubt that what you say is true for some, I happen to think it's only a small group. The rest would most likely rather have a good salary, the best equipment, and the ability to call maintenance when something doesn't work.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 2, 2007 at 12:38:01 am
[Mike Most]"Walter, I don't think you've ever actually operated a DaVinci, at least not as a full time colorist using one every day."
Nope, never have. I'm an editor / director by trade. I've sat in on a few sessions. I was just simply describing how this is done in Color, however I believe Tangent panels can be programmed to very much mimic the controls on a daVinci. At least this is what I've been told by daVinci artists who now work on Color with them. So it's very possible you can perform this same action using a Tangent Panel.
[Mike Most]"The rest would most likely rather have a good salary, the best equipment, and the ability to call maintenance when something doesn't work."
With the advent of Color, especially once it's working properly, you will most likely see the same effect on high priced color suites as what is happening to high priced edit suites. They will start to be replaced more and more by people who are trying to maximize their investments in offices while being able to either meet shrinking budgets or bring in more, smaller projects to pay the bills. CineFilm is a very good example of this where they have kept their two daVinci suites going, but have installed a Color room as a lower cost option and as a way to introduce clients to this workflow. So far it's working quite well for them.
We have an $85 million facility here in Atlanta that can't keep their edit suites booked anymore because they simply charge too much for the work thanks to Final Cut Pro shops sprouting up all over town. There simply aren't enough high dollar clients anymore to keep a $650/hour to $1,5000/hour edit suite running 5 days a week, all year long.
At the same time, we have three HD suites so busy we're turning away work and business is up incredibly over 2006. We're delivering HD Network Broadcast programming, SD Network Broadcast programming and tons of corporate projects.
The business model has definitely changed for Post Production and if Color can deliver on its promise, the same shift may come to the Color Grading end of things. It might take a few years and certainly Color is going to have to get more stable and less cumbersome to use with Final Cut Pro, but it could definitely happen.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Stop Staring Start Grading with Apple Color The new Color Training DVD now available!
http://store.creativecow.net/p/66/stop_staring_and_start_grading_with_apple_color
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ewooewoo on Nov 2, 2007 at 1:12:11 am
I think Walter has got it pretty right here......
It seems to me that what Da Vinci colorists are saying now about Color is what Linear editors said about AVID 15 - 20 years ago......all that time digitizing, rendering etc.....not practical.....it'll never take off or replace real professional edit suites.......LOL.......R.I.P!!!!
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Imagemixer on Nov 2, 2007 at 6:23:21 pm
Thank you all for the feedback. You all have perfectly valid points on both sides.Mike ,you are 100 percent correct in regards to the DaVinci workflow i am used to and spoiled by,especially the engineering part( I don't build 'em-I just fly 'em) What I am looking to do is create a new and transitional work situation for myself. let me explain. i am in negotiation w/ a production company to join them as a staff colorist and work in their facility where they have Pro Tools and Adrenaline.After a meeting today they fully understand i would be working on selects in small batches as the show is being edited. They would then take the selet corrected DVCHD Pro 720p or in some cases digi-beta to a post house for an auto conform,or finish in-house. i would not be working from FCP projects,just ingesting selects from cam masters. Is that possible to do. Also(PLEASE remember this is ALL new to me) I would want to render my corrected footage and lay off to tape as an element for the conform in the simplist way possible. i would be the only link in the chain as far as FCP. So.what is the most efficient way to get my footage out to tape? Is the scenerio possible. All the reconstucting the time line back to final cut has me nervous. Does that still have to be done if no work is being done in final cut prior or after me? They have told me a storage server of 7 TB's will be installed for Pro tools so that can be expanded on if need be-no problem( I guess,lol). so--they now want me to meet w/them again w/ a dream system w/OPTIMAL performance. So--what can I put together for the best rendering time(based on storage server ?) back up storage(in the computers drive bays ?),the smoothest playback and simplist way for a technically inept daVinci arist to get the footage on tape. as far as other clients , most work will be promos from cut tape masters -digi or 720 or final Cut quicktimes that i would layoff to tape after rendering. Thank you for reading this.Any help would be appreciated. Can email me too. Thanks - G.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ewooewoo on Nov 2, 2007 at 9:38:17 pm
Hi Image,
I haven't actually done this workflow, but in theory there are some ways to do it.....
The problem may be round tripping as I'm not sure how well these will work....you would really have to test the whole workflow.
The way that will definately work would be to export slabs of the program from the AVID as self contained uncompressed quicktimes. Take these quicktimes into FCP, putting in cuts where you want them to be manually. Then send to color. After this process is complete send back to FCP and then export as a self contained uncompressed quicktime, to take back into AVID. Alternatively just go to tape from FCP instead of AVID.
In theory you can export an EDL of your cuts from AVID and import it into Color. You make a self contained uncompressed quicktime of your program and export it from AVID. You then import the EDL and Color will notch the quicktime. You can then export an EDL and relink to the media. The manual says you can do this but you would really have to test it to make sure. Also to see if the AVID will import the EDL and relink correctly to the media.
Another alternative is to use Automatic Duck to move projects between AVID and FCP. However if you do this you will probably still need to recapture the media once you have your project in FCP as FCP will probably not like the AVID media. Also, depending on how complex the sequence is in terms of effects, speed changes etc, you might find Automatic Duck not to do the translation so well. I have worked with Automatic Duck to translate between FCP projects and After Effects and found it mostly works - but there are always fixes.
Unfortunately there is not a great workflow for AVID projects at the moment. The easiest and most failsafe is probably the first one I mentioned. The only big issue with it is you will be baking in transition effects (like working on a Da Vinci), so you will have to deal with those with keyframes. There are some other work arounds, but it depends on how much manual back and forth you are willing / able to do.
Reality is if you are working with Adrenaline it would be easiest in terms of workflow to correct on a Symphony - but obviously that setup is way, way more expensive than a copy of FCS2 and a decent mac with a Kona card.....
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ImageMixer on Nov 2, 2007 at 11:12:18 pm
OK- what I'm trying to figure out is if I can ingest footage from a tape deck(let's say 12 mins. of an unedited iterview and some beauty shots from digi-beta or DVCProHD) right into the computer I'm operating Color on--then correct the footage-render and send the clips back to final cut on my computer ,than layoff the footage? B/C it is only select footage do I have to deal w/any FC bugs or hassle w/reconstruction & such? If and when I get this off the ground I will only be dealing w/select takes(unedited) of the programming we will be working on. Then the conform will be done from color corrected tapes either in house or at another facility.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2007 at 12:38:00 am
[ImageMixer]"OK- what I'm trying to figure out is if I can ingest footage from a tape deck(let's say 12 mins. of an unedited iterview and some beauty shots from digi-beta or DVCProHD) right into the computer I'm operating Color on--then correct the footage-render and send the clips back to final cut on my computer ,than layoff the footage?"
If that's all you're working with, selects, then you have a very easy workflow.
Simply capture the footage.
Place it all onto a timeline.
Send To Color.
Grade.
Render.
Send To Final Cut Pro.
Lay off to tape.
Where all the issues come in is when it's a fully edited timeline with graphics, motion effects, speed changes and the like. Then you have a lot of "prep" work to do.
If all you're going is capturing raw selects to be conformed later, that's a very easy workflow.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ImageMixer on Nov 3, 2007 at 1:37:44 am
Thanks for the heads up Walter. Just ordered your DVD on Color - priority shipping! The more complicated work flow will come later on as we grow more comfortable with the new setup. My main priority will be to provide the prod. company w/the visual style they have grown acustomed to throughout our long relationship,get them used to the work flow and then proceed from there.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2007 at 11:45:02 am
[ImageMixer]"Thanks for the heads up Walter. Just ordered your DVD on Color - priority shipping!"
Thank YOU! appreciate that.
[ImageMixer]"My main priority will be to provide the prod. company w/the visual style they have grown acustomed to throughout our long relationship,get them used to the work flow and then proceed from there."
Be sure to get Graeme Nattress' filters for Color. They add more options in the Color FX room.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 3, 2007 at 12:33:44 pm
>After a meeting today they fully understand i would be working on selects in small batches as >the show is being edited. They would then take the selet corrected DVCHD Pro 720p or in >some cases digi-beta to a post house for an auto conform,or finish in-house. i would not be >working from FCP projects,just ingesting selects from cam masters.
Hmm. And how long do you think it will take for them to realize that color correcting selects is not really getting them what they want, and that what they really need to do is color correct the finished, edited piece in order to deal with continuity? As a colorist, I'm sure you already realize that. As non-colorists looking for a way to save money, they might not. I would think this over before committing to something that might very well become a lot more complicated very quickly. Once again - not saying don't do it, I'm just saying be realistic. Believe what your experience tells you rather than what they're telling you.
Walter suggested Nattress plugins. I don't, because I think a professional colorist with some experience can do a much better job of "look creation" when it's called for, using "standard" color correction tools, than plug ins can. And more efficiently, too.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2007 at 1:31:27 pm
[Mike Most]"Walter suggested Nattress plugins. I don't, because I think a professional colorist with some experience can do a much better job of "look creation" when it's called for, using "standard" color correction tools, than plug ins can. And more efficiently, too."
Nattress is suggested not for "looks." It is suggested because he has extremely good noise reduction tools that are not part of the standard Color filter set.
If you are trying to do a professional color job, then noise reduction is generally a part of that. The ability to independently reduce noise on a channel by channel basis is essential to the colorist's job.
If you just want "looks" then go buy Magic Bullet Looks.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 3, 2007 at 5:54:12 pm
>If you are trying to do a professional color job, then noise reduction is generally a part of that. >The ability to independently reduce noise on a channel by channel basis is essential to the >colorist's job.
That's both a matter of opinion and a comment on the source material one might be working with. Over many years of working with film original and HD video original, I've never considered noise reduction "essential." In fact, I've rarely even used it. My opinion has been and continues to be that noise reduction is usually destructive, and usually overused. But then again, I was usually working with professionally shot material.
But, as I said, it's a matter of opinion. And a commentary on the original material.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by ImageMixer on Nov 3, 2007 at 3:17:12 pm
And how long do you think it will take for them to realize that
color correcting selects is not really getting them what they want, and
that what they really need to do is color correct the finished, edited
piece in order to deal with continuity? Mike - I plan to start up initially that way-and only for 30 and 60 min shows. After some stick time I'll begin digitizing the full edited show(textless and w/out graphics) from digi-beta or 720p then color correct,render,FC and finally tape.Again,what concerns me is render time and all the bugs I have been reading about in regards to sending back to FC and a myriad of other complaints,issues and crashes people have posted. So far I'm inclined to recommend taking a wait and see approach for the next few months and see what developes in so far as fixes to the program.A new work flow can be adjusted to by myself and by clients--but the instability of Color seems to be the main concern now.Crashes,workarounds and quality inconsistancies are unacceptable. Also,I have to trust that what I see and save will remain the same after it is rendered,sent to FC and to tape.If I can't --then this will never be a go.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by JP Owens on Nov 3, 2007 at 5:25:38 pm
The colur shift that is being alluded to is a problem with release 1.01, or as some of us might refer to it, Final Touch 2.8 or so.
This application and workflow isn't for everybody. There are simpler ways of quickly "touching up" a shot, faster ways, that don't require re-rendering and all that round tripping, etc... Like the plugins (recommended highly by Walter -- ie Colorista, which BTW I have never used) or even the internal 3-way in Final Cut. And if you are leery about Final Cut, then simply "don't go there", because FCP and Color are joined at the hip.
The comment about the Nattress plugins as being a shortcut to 'looks' that (probably) should be colorist-created reveals a misperception about their contents. De-Noise is one that should not be missed, but there are also some very powerful chroma-smoothing and de-interlace nodes that are well worth the investment that can leverage your DV footage into quality regimes that it ordinarily wouldn't be able to afford. Not just "Bleach Bypass" and such. And BTW, if you can't create a good silver retention from first principles, then you probably don't deserve to be credited as a colourist, or.... if you don't know what "silver retention" is...
In any event, I do decry the loss of being able to find a niche, or personal calling and dedicate one's life to it. I believe the music derived from a Symphony orchestra, where every player is a master of their particular instrument, and plays only it, is far, far superior to a one-man-band with all the bass thumping and cymbal-clashing and bicycle horn honking. Unfrtunately, that's what seems to be most amusing these days.
But that world (and its budgets) is fading away, and the industry seems to want more than a one-trick pony for its favourite ride. So being strictly a "colourist" or to narrow the metaphor, strictly a "daVinci colourist" may not be a life plan, or a business case anymore.
I know there are professionals out there who just don't want to know, and don't want to be, anything else. But then there's reality. Didn't want to be a roto-artist? But if you wanted to use EDWin -- guess what? That's what you had to do.
I blame the damned computers. I'm not a particularly religious person, but... tool of the devil, if you ask me...
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2007 at 5:37:19 pm
[JP Owens]"But that world (and its budgets) is fading away, and the industry seems to want more than a one-trick pony for its favourite ride. So being strictly a "colourist" or to narrow the metaphor, strictly a "daVinci colourist" may not be a life plan, or a business case anymore."
Well thought out post and I'll add that even the niche of being a very good editor has faded away. There are still those out there who can just be an editor, like the big film guys, but to truly survive as an editor today, you have to be an editor, graphics designer, animator, sound designer and now colorist. Those who can jump around and work all the apps to their advantage are those who will survive.
In my case, the fact that I know After Effects so well was actually what got my business really going even though all my credits and awards are as an editor. Today, Color has really added a huge "add-on" to our capabilities for the client. Will I ever be credited as a colorist? Nope and I really don't need to. But I do understand what color grading in general brings to any project and regardless of whether I use the 3-Way, Colorista or Color, I know the power that good color grading brings to the table.
Today it is another skill set that will be learned by the hordes of editors coming to the table rather than be a learned skill for the few.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 3, 2007 at 6:02:41 pm
I refer to a statement I've made before and will undoubtedly make again: Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If the intent of all of this is to do the work well and save money in the process, then that's one thing. If the intent is to use this because the software is essentially free, that's another. If you have turnaround issues, workflow issues, and reliability issues, as well as your own learning curve, you might want to rethink the motivation for doing this in the first place - or consider other alternatives that may not be free, but also don't cost what a 2K Plus does. You might want to look at things like Nucoda Film Master (which talks very well to Avid products) or Assimilate Scratch (which has a much more comprehensive tool set) in addition to Color. The cheapest choice is not necessarily the best one. In fact, it often isn't.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Mike Most on Nov 3, 2007 at 8:29:32 pm
It's sold in various modular configurations. You should contact them directly. If you send me a private message, I can give you some contact information.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Son of Light on Nov 8, 2007 at 11:42:26 am
I refer to a statement I've made before and will undoubtedly make again: Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If the intent of all of this is to do the work well and save money in the process, then that's one thing. If the intent is to use this because the software is essentially free, that's another. If you have turnaround issues, workflow issues, and reliability issues, as well as your own learning curve, you might want to rethink the motivation for doing this in the first place - or consider other alternatives that may not be free, but also don't cost what a 2K Plus does. You might want to look at things like Nucoda Film Master (which talks very well to Avid products) or Assimilate Scratch (which has a much more comprehensive tool set) in addition to Color. The cheapest choice is not necessarily the best one. In fact, it often isn't.
I agree with Mike Most.
Color can't replace 2KPlus/Resolve/Pogle/Film Master as a color grading system, once again I said as A COLOR GRADING SYSTEM.
For me Color just a color correction & color enhancement program. PERIOD. There's no workflow advantages in there, which is, for a "big" post facility is a must.
Of course you can achieve any beauty grade with any program or even a plug-in with the same quality. But the process to achieve that beauty grade is the important things in "real world" situations.
If you only grade a 30sec TVC/Promo you don't worry about the render time. But what if you wan'na make a base grade from 4 hours footage? Do you really think using Color is an efficient way?
For ImageMixer, I think you should check Lustre/Scratch/Matrix. They are software-based program and cheaper than DaVinci or Pandora. But they have the same (similar) workflow with DaVinci, Pandora, and Nucoda. Or you can check out the latest product from Digital Vision: Nucoda SD & Nucoda HD.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 8, 2007 at 12:16:35 pm
[Son of Light]"Color can't replace 2KPlus/Resolve/Pogle/Film Master as a color grading system, once again I said as A COLOR GRADING SYSTEM."
It is in some facilities or being used as another option. CineFilm in Atlanta is one that I know of now embracing Color as another option and they are very very satisfied with it in a DI workflow.
[Son of Light]"For me Color just a color correction & color enhancement program. PERIOD. There's no workflow advantages in there, which is, for a "big" post facility is a must."
The big disadvantage right now is the rendering times. That is what the end user must weigh to use this application. It's a true color grading software, not just a color corrector. However in its present form, it has quite a few bugs to fill and render times must come down to be more widely feasible in broadcast / film / deadline situations.
Oh and the "true color grading software" are not my words, those are words spoken to me by daVinci artists now using Color instead.
[Son of Light]"Of course you can achieve any beauty grade with any program or even a plug-in with the same quality. But the process to achieve that beauty grade is the important things in "real world" situations."
That process is easily achievable with Color. If you want plug-ins, then look at Colorista or Magic Bullet Looks. Color is there to achieve beauty grades in "real world situations."
[Son of Light]"If you only grade a 30sec TVC/Promo you don't worry about the render time. But what if you wan'na make a base grade from 4 hours footage? Do you really think using Color is an efficient way?"
For actual grading? Absolutely, it's very efficient. Not as efficient as realtime daVinci or others costing thousands and of dollars more, but it's very efficient.
Now the rendering time will kill you if you don't have the time, especially right now with whatever is causing Color to render much slower than Final Touch HD did. We have managed to work that into our production plan by mostly rendering overnight as our projects currently allow that. That will change in the near future and we will have to make a decision based on render times whether we will be able to use Color exclusively for all our major projects or drop back to FCP / Colorista to get the projects done on time.
If you absolutely need that realtime grading and realtime back to tape or to film, then hardware based systems are the way to go.
If you want the power of a hardware based system on a desktop for $1,299, then Color is your answer.
It's not for everyone out there and certainly if you're used to a daVinci then you're going to have to adjust your workflow. But like Final Cut Pro has done to Avid in the past, Color now opens up the Color Grading toolset to everyone. Just because it costs so little doesn't mean it doesn't perform the same functions as the very high end applications.
It still comes down to the artist using the tool. There are going to be a lot of very bad color grading examples out there but there are also going to be people who take advantage of the fact that they have this new tool and properly learn the methods that go with it.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Son of Light on Nov 8, 2007 at 1:16:50 pm
[walter biscardi]"It is in some facilities or being used as another option. CineFilm in Atlanta is one that I know of now embracing Color as another option and they are very very satisfied with it in a DI workflow."
As another option but not to replace them.
[walter biscardi]"The big disadvantage right now is the rendering times. That is what the end user must weigh to use this application. It's a true color grading software, not just a color corrector. However in its present form, it has quite a few bugs to fill and render times must come down to be more widely feasible in broadcast / film / deadline situations.
Oh and the "true color grading software" are not my words, those are words spoken to me by daVinci artists now using Color instead."
Once again I said as A COLOR GRADING SYSTEM. Not software.
[walter biscardi]"That process is easily achievable with Color. If you want plug-ins, then look at Colorista or Magic Bullet Looks. Color is there to achieve beauty grades in "real world situations.""
I talked about the whole process. From in to out. Not just make a grade.
[walter biscardi]"For actual grading? Absolutely, it's very efficient. Not as efficient as realtime daVinci or others costing thousands and of dollars more, but it's very efficient."
What do you mean by "actual grading"? Is tech light/base grade isn't an actual grading?
I've graded hundred of promos with FT HD 2.5 and Color. For me Color is a great software, but it will never replace any hardware-based systems.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 8, 2007 at 1:30:54 pm
[Son of Light]"Once again I said as A COLOR GRADING SYSTEM. Not software."
Add Tangent Panels, high quality monitor and / or projector and you have a grading system.
[Son of Light]"I talked about the whole process. From in to out. Not just make a grade."
Well, you do have an entire process available to you depending on the system you surround it with.
[Son of Light]"
What do you mean by "actual grading"? Is tech light/base grade isn't an actual grading?"
The process of color grading a project. Actually taking the project and making a color pass on it. that is very efficient in Color. It's the rendering once you're done that is not very efficient at this time.
[Son of Light]"I've graded hundred of promos with FT HD 2.5 and Color. For me Color is a great software, but it will never replace any hardware-based systems."
It won't right now in its current form, but at some point, just like the linear suites I used to work in 17 years ago, but eventually I'm sure some software application will replace the hardware based systems of today.
I never thought that little thing called Avid could ever replace my Accom Axial, Diamond Digital Switcher, Abekas A53, Chyron Infinit and all the other toys I had at my disposal. Now you're hard pressed to find anything like that in an edit suite these days.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Son of Light on Nov 9, 2007 at 4:58:01 am
OK Walter, it seems like we have a different point of view.
I've done a lot of projects using Pogle, 2KPlus, FT, Color, and Lustre(you have to try this!).
Color is a great software but to make it as a "true" software-based grading system - lets say like Lustre/Scratch - it will need a lot of improvement.
I believe software-based grading system (lustre/scratch/matrix) will replace hardware-based grading system (pogle/2KPlus), but I don't think Color will replace DaVinci. Especially if you're dealing with film materials, film scanner, and film printer.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by JP Owens on Nov 3, 2007 at 12:15:39 am
The way in and out of COLOR (tape workflow) is Final Cut-->/ I/O card.
Otherwise it will accept Quicktimes. AVIDtoFCP/ Automatic Duck/capture works. Do NOT attempt to notch a solid (baked) quicktime in COLOR. Notch it in FCP, the SEND TO... MAYBE a CMX import will be good enough, but beware that there are issues with COLOR 1.01 and colourspace transform back to FCP -- I mention this because COLOR 1.01 does have some things going for it, like supporting DROPFRAME timecode which COLOR 1.0 DOES NOT.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Tcurren on Nov 3, 2007 at 4:37:55 pm
Mike,
You will reallly miss your daVinci when you see what Color does to the image after a roundtrip. Check out the two screen grabs from an external scope on bars that were roundtripped without any correction added.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2007 at 5:25:49 pm
[Tcurren]"You will reallly miss your daVinci when you see what Color does to the image after a roundtrip. Check out the two screen grabs from an external scope on bars that were roundtripped without any correction added."
And we're not seeing anything that dramatic on our roundtrips in DVCPro HD. To the eye, we can't see anything at all. using the scopes, there is the slightest shift and the only way to even see it is to keep flipping back and forth from original to Color clip.
There is the slightest shift there, but nothing that has caused any issues or concerns in our shop.
Render times have been the biggest concern here. That definitely has to be addressed by Apple on why render times have doubled to tripled over the last version of Final Touch HD.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by A.Zander on Nov 4, 2007 at 12:24:03 am
[walter biscardi]"Render times have been the biggest concern here. That definitely has to be addressed by Apple on why render times have doubled to tripled over the last version of Final Touch HD"
same wit compressor, times have shot up and it simply doesn't work as well as it should.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Johan Polhem on Nov 5, 2007 at 12:49:45 pm
"[Tcurren] "You will reallly miss your daVinci when you see what Color does to the image after a roundtrip. Check out the two screen grabs from an external scope on bars that were roundtripped without any correction added.""
-I agree with you here.
Incionistencies have been my major concern with Color.
Sometimes I get them, sometimes not, color is even inconsistent in its inconsistency.
This has to be fixed ASAP by Apple and before that happpens, Color is not a viable tool for some projects.
Im not personally overly conerned about the render times as I work on 30 sec commerciels usually.
I have found that certain nodes applied in the effects room seriously increases render time though. I can only imagine the pain of rendering a 30 minute show when in a hurry.
My guess is that once Apple gets their shit together and sort out all the bugs with Color it will be a major player.
Final Cut also had limitations initially and all the serious editors used Avid and basically laughed at FCP. Now its the other way around.
Re: New Color suite-Any feedback appreciated by Multiple Words on Nov 14, 2007 at 4:17:15 am
Going back to your original post... I strongly encourage you to think about something other than a three drive internal RAID with Apple's new card. In my opinion, that card is over priced, and overkill for only three drives. Take a look at an external SATA RAID using a SATA PCI-e card that supports RAID 5 from HighPoint or one of the other vendors.
