Any LCD or LED TV even half decent for Color?

Hi All

I was just curious if there was any LCD or LED TV on the market that would even be a half way decent monitor just to check color on output. Not necessarily for color correcting but at least it would give you some idea if you you in in the ball park a little on good color or if you were just way off

thanks

Matt

in order to get accurate colour, you need to start with a TV that has a decent colour management system. Many of todays' panels have user accessible CMS controls, allowing a fine-tuneable calibration. Some will get very close to REC 709.

I'd recommend having a look here - I know it's UK based (so am I) but it will give you an idea of the more tweakable sets....

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/

Then think about combining purchase of one of these sets with ISF Calibration. In fact, it may be an idea to find a respected calibrator nearest to you, explain what you want the set for (essentially calibrated as close to REC709 as you can get for HD broadcast work) and see what they recommend. I reckon you could get a solution for around $1000. Will it be as good as an FSI? No, but it could be pretty close.

Jason

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[Matt Stoltz] "Basically I was just wondering what sets did have more tweakable modes. "

Check out the Panasonic VT25 very tweakable with IFcc control. I have one and love it. After proper calibration its pretty spot on. However I should say I only use it has a client monitor

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"...but Holy cow -in the vt25 series -do they make small ones -I dont need a huge screen -something like a 22-27 or 32 even will suit me fine"

Ha! Yeah That's what I found as well. Couldn't even find anything under a 50" locally, but I have to say, I went with the 50", had it professionally calibrated, put it up on the wall above my edit suite and clients LOVE it!...um...except when they bring in HDV footage, then they can really see the difference when cut with uncompressed or even XDCAM. You cant hide anything on those huge monitors.

Good Luck!

Richard Cooper
FrostLine Productions, LLC
Anchorage, Alaska
http://www.frostlineproductions.com

If you're going the plasma route, the smallest plasma around is 37" and that's not full 1080.

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Motion Design, Color, Editing
SWGC Incorporated

Hey Walter

Yeah I looked at the Flanders -yeah thats what I would want if I had the big Corporate budget behind me --im just a freelance guy -buying all my own stuff -so until I get a couple bigger projects -the Flanders will have to wait but -You did say that your Pano's in you roffice do a good job at scaling and reproducing good color?

which models are they -they sound like something I could get by with for now.

Thanks to everyone who has responded-sounds like the Plasma HD sets are the ones reproducing better color than LCD -or LED

Matt

"All the Panny plasmas in our shop are 720p but they all display 1080 brilliantly."

That may be true for your plasmas but it's not true for all. I've seen the same 1080 material side by side on multiple screens and I can clearly see aliasing on graphics and a general lack of detail. It's not as apparent if the screens aren't side by side, so ultimately it doesn't really matter.

twitter.com/illyalaney

Walter -please read my last post --thanks

Matt

HEy Jpo

I kinda agree with that to a certain extent -but I believe if you take the time to color correct --it just increases value in your productions- and you can create your own style and look to your projects too

but i agree --I shoot the 5D mark II and color is amazing on it

Matt

i've found the samsung series 6 to be one of the best "cheapish" led monitors around. of course it still is lcd so that viewing angle can be a pain but if you calibrate it properly and feed it from a bm intensity hdmi card it can really do a great job. i also find the color to be way more accurate than any plasma i've seen...i recently had the chance to compare a panasonic plasma to a samsung led and was so surprised by what the scopes were saying and what the picture was displaying....especially in the greenish cyan spectrum. the samsung was way more accurate....then theres always the hi end sony bravia series but it's a bitch to set up properly.....

any card with an hdmi output should work....i found the b.m. intensity to be the best bang for the buck..its cheap and works!

[Emeri Scott II] "I don't know if anyone has noticed the recession and how it's affected the industry. Many people have invested in equipment before they can really afford it, and having a $2500-$8,000 monitor...might not be logical in "these" times if you can't afford it! Give people a break for trying to find a "decent", economical solution! Ok, I'm off my soap box!"

Yes you have to spend money wisely. And in my opinion spending money wisely means saving up until you can afford a proper monitor. You can pick up a consumer TV and that TV will have a floating white point that will drift throughout the day. What you graded this morning will look different when you go back to it this afternoon. It will be subtle at times and more pronounced at times. But it will most likely cause you to change the shot to look the best with whatever the monitor is showing you at that moment. A true reference monitor holds its color all day, everyday.

That's really the difference and when you're talking about color grading, there really isn't a "good enough" if you're charging the client money specifically to color grade. I used to say the Panny plasmas were an excellent monitor if that's all you could afford (and at $800 or less these days they are a bargain.) but I can clearly see how the plasmas shift in color throughout the day. I will adjust the plasma sometimes three times in a day to keep it as close as possible. It's subtle, but the change is there. So they're a great client monitor since they are close, but when a client asks what is the "real color" we point to the FSIs.

One thing I've learned in my 10+ years of being in business for myself. Those who take the time to invest wisely in proper equipment are the ones who get ahead because it's clear to the client when they see a well prepared professional system vs. one that is getting by with the cheapest of everything. This can be your home based system, your office or a full post production facility.

And by no means do I imply you should run out and drop $50,000 to get the mac daddy suite. I mean add a piece at a time as you can. In my case I started out with a simple edit suite. Then I added a Sony Reference Monitor. Then a high quality set of speakers. More storage. More plug-ins, etc... so that by the end of a two year period I had a very high end edit suite to match my talents and the client needs. That in turn created tremendous word of mouth in the local production community that drove more work to my door. I've used that philosophy in building my entire business. Add another piece when I can and at the end of a few years you suddenly have quite the setup.

One other thing I do, is just purchase the equipment. No leasing. This means I lose money on a few jobs or don't make as much money as I could, but then I own the gear. Case in point, $5,000 I spent on a PC, Dual BluRay Burner and BluRay software four years ago. The first job only billed out at $500 so I was $4500 in the hole after the first job. But I paid for the gear upfront so I owned it. Fast forward ahead almost five years, we're still using the same PC, same Dual BluRay burner and we've burned in excess of 2000 BluRay discs at around $40 each. How did we get so much BluRay work? Because clients found out we had the equipment, we charged a fair rate, and they have spread the word around.

It's the same thing with Color enhancement. The tools are ridiculously cheap. $999 for Studio with Color or $999 for Davinci. So what will set you apart from the 1.1+ million registered users of Apple Color or the people who will flock to Davinci? Your talent and having high quality monitoring equipment.

Yes, even in a recession you still have to make wise business decisions so you're in a good position on the other side. Not to mention setting yourself apart from everyone else...

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" Winner, Best Documentary, LA Reel Film Festival...

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i was one of the first in the country to jump onto the so called "consumer" hd sets for post production...the samsung 6 became my choice of monitor for 3 very important reasons..price, size and accuracy! i was just setting up my own place after leaving my job and had very little money. the original office i had was slightly larger than a bathroom and anything above 40 inches was just not going to cut it. i needed something that i could close to accurate. after seeing the so called high end (read:expensive) monitors at one post place i started researching. i had a good relationship with a local electronics supplier so i had the luxury of actually trying out a few sets....the first thing i had to sacrifice was size....a large screen in my little office would only cause me neck and eye strain...i could only sit around 1 1/2 meters from the screen and my peripheral vision was getting a mean work out. i settled on the 32 inch samsung series 6 at the time because it was simply the best looking and most accurate of all the monitors i had seen. it currently sits in my lounge and is still a great monitor for dvds and such. over time i have moved on "up" to the newest sony bravia led....i really wanted to stick with the new samsungs but after some comparison switched to the sony mostly because of the matte screen and the darker less reflective bezel...i recently had the honor of do a freelance gig at a post house in town and was shocked that the so called broadcast standard monitor was so crappy. i wont mention the brand but it cost 10 times as much as my sony and you had to sit exactly in the middle or the color would shift and the screen would go all silvery......horrible thing really! in south africa where budgets are 1/10 th of those in america cost is a big factor. we already pay almost double for equipment brought in to the country and have to work for less money so alot of clever compromise is the only way to survive. i must also add that i have done many jobs for overseas broadcasters such as nat geo and discovery and bbc and have yet to have a single show rejected.....you can spend alot more and get alot less!

the samsung was an lcd almost 3 years old now. it's amazing how far the new ones have come.the newest models have led backlighting but you need to move up to the series 8 for full led...they're bigger and more expensive but very much worth it.....i didnt like the lg personally...i thought the color rendition was a bit fake when i viewed the macbeth chart on it. the basic black magic intensity card i have has only hdmi in and out....again it was the cheapest thing out there at the time and as i explained earlier alot of my decisions had to be based on cost. just bought a brand new mac so i am slowly moving up the ladder to improve my services and rid myself of some older gear...by next year i'll be replacing the monitor and the video card i hope...but this year my emphasis is on storage and speed. besides by next year the latest super duper led monitors will blow away anything thats out there now and only cost half the price....remember when hd ready plasmas would cost $10,000 and were all grey and muddy and blurry and used up electricity like crazy yet everyone thought they were awesome and couldnt wait to afford one?

i totally agree with you on the green issue with the panny plasma....a touch plasticky if it can be described that way......i'd be very interested to hear your opinion on the new sony ex series. i managed to get my hands on one and do side by side with the samsung and the only snag was the the lack of a blue only function......i preferred the overall look of the sony...but it was very hard to get it accurate!

[Chris Wiggles] "The weakness there was the monitor didn't have a CMS, and the green primary was a little oversaturated."

That's interesting. On all our Panny Plasmas, it's the red that's the strongest and we're always having to dial that back a bit...

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" Winner, Best Documentary, LA Reel Film Festival...

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[walter biscardi] "
That's interesting. On all our Panny Plasmas, it's the red that's the strongest and we're always having to dial that back a bit..."

It depends what your target is. The Panny plasmas I've done have all been very similar across lines, which leads me to believe they're probably using the same or similar phosphors, or at least phosphors with similar chromaticities. The Reds have been a bit oversaturated relative to Rec709, but not enormously. If you were targeting SMPTE C red, which is less saturated, then you'll see a more significant measured error.

And judging perceptual error is complicated, adding to that fact that many calibration programs historically have used CIE 1931 which is not perceptually uniform, but many people still use because it's the CIE chart they're used to.

But the greens are definitely way out, and visibly so.


As far as dialing it back, I'm a little bit confused about that, because that is not something you can address on the display, as it lacks a CMS which would allow you to do anything about that.

Regards,
Chris

[walter biscardi] "
In the Advanced controls you can adjust blue and red levels for both highlights and blacks."

Are you talking about low/high or cut/gain or brightness/contrast settings for red and blue? These are RGB controls, this is decidedly NOT a CMS, and doesn't do anything for primary or secondary chromaticity. These will usually be 6 controls that set gains and cuts for R, G, and B which are for setting greyscale (sometimes just R and B). These controls do not address primary or secondary chromaticity.

A good 6-axis CMS will have 6 groups of controls for each primary and secondary: RGBCMY, each with 3 controls (18 total) for saturation, hue angle, and luminance. (And the saturation control here is actual CIE saturation not the regular old Color control which is often called "saturation" but is really a color luma control which does not have a direct impact on chromaticity and is not capable of actually addressing over-saturated display primaries)


I am not aware of any Panasonic plasmas with a CMS currently available.

Regards,
Chris

[walter biscardi] "
Yes, that's precisely what I'm talking about. Keep in mind, all of our Panny plasmas are client monitors. We have Flanders Scientific reference monitors in all our suites for accurate color. We just get the Panny's close so they look similar to the FSIs. Not exactly the same, but similar.

The FSIs are what we use for absolutely accurate reference. Can't recommend them enough."

Right. So instead of using greyscale controls, which are the wrong tool, if Panasonic included a CMS, or if you added a CMS box or processor before the display, you could actually hit spot-on Rec 709 or SMPTE C, or EBU gamut (or whatever you wanted) with these plasmas, and color-wise they should essentially perfectly match a reference monitor. There may be differences in terms of contrast ratios and things like that, but in terms of color they should be spot-on.

That's the true beauty of a proper 6-axis CMS, is that as long as all your primaries are not undersaturated relative to your target, you can have basically perfectly accurate color on the monitor. It's really the most powerful calibration tool to come along in getting excellent color out of nearly any display.

Basically in years past, you could do greyscale and all that, but the display's color gamut just was whatever it happened to be and that's what you're stuck with. Now, you can just make whatever gamut you want, which is just awesomely powerful. And what's even better, is you don't actually have to choose between a display with SMPTE C primaries or Rec 709 primaries, or run multiple displays depending on what you're mastering or grading. You can have one display with both (or more) and you can just flip between them at the push of a button. I actually do this in my theater at home, I can just flip color gamuts between SMPTE C or Rec 709 depending on what I'm watching. Now, if only mastering houses followed the rules so I didn't have to guess what kind of monitor they were looking at when they were mastering... ;)

Regards,
Chris