The list of accepted import formats in the color manual shocked me. We have been waiting for the new software to grade a feature length film in HDV 1080i50 without dealing with a buggie FT version. But with FT it was possible to import a HDV sequence via XML!!
Do we have to uprez to 10Bit UC or is there any workaround for this issue? And how would you uprez the HDV footage, via FCP's media manager (5 or 6?), FT or what?
We do have enough space on our X-Raid, but there is not much time left to do it.
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by walter biscardi on May 22, 2007 at 9:55:22 am
I would honestly never grade in HDV. We actually convert all our HDV material to DVCPro HD during ingest. HDV did not hold up to color correction at all in our tests.
As suggested above, ProRes is a better path to take coming in to Color.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.
All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by pixeldustfilms on Jun 1, 2007 at 5:32:37 pm
Hey Walter,
I'm reading your post about Color and it actually has me wondering about some other things during the ingestion from my deck...
We are filming using the HVR-Z1U, and then bring the footage into FCP using the HDV 1080i60 preset. We also have the AJA Kona LH.
To really keep things as pristine as possible, should I be bringing the footage into FCP as DVC Pro HD or should I use the new Apple Pro Res codec instead? We're basically looking to get more of the Kona LH into the mix and allow the card to start doing more of the heavy lifting. Of course, we'd also love to see the benefits in Color.
Any feedback or direction on this would be appreciated. Thank you to everyone in advance!
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by Gabriel.Anger on May 22, 2007 at 11:43:38 am
Hello,
at page 85 of the color-manual is in the list of supported for import the hdv1080i50.
and so I think it will works.
Otherside Floh and Walter are right, use the new ProRes or DVCPRO HD.
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by Michael Sandness on May 22, 2007 at 2:31:23 pm
Wait for Color to arrive...then:
Send your XML sequence to Color. Grade. Then render your project using ProRes.
Color does not render to HDV. and frankly, I'm glad.
In Color, can render to the original codec (if supported...HDV isn't) or uncompressed Quicktime, or the new ProRes.
My workflow is to grade sequences in their Native codec. Then render to ProRes, if that is good enough quality. In your case with HDV, I feel its the best solution, and why Apple developed ProRes!
Michael Sandness
Colorist-Finishing
Splice Here, Minneapolis MN
www.splicehere.tv
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by Romanski in the woods on May 23, 2007 at 5:25:03 am
Thank you Floh, Walter, Gabriel and Michael!
So if you had the space and time for going to 10Bit UC instead of Apple ProRes, would it give you an advantage? ProRes seems to be a compressed format and therefore more inaccurate to grade than UC Formats.
And Michael: Does the footage not behave different in color when its uprezed first? Assuming a higher bitrate will give you a more sophisticated color control?
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by Floh on May 23, 2007 at 9:35:54 am
[Romanski in the woods]"So if you had the space and time for going to 10Bit UC instead of Apple ProRes, would it give you an advantage? ProRes seems to be a compressed format and therefore more inaccurate to grade than UC Formats."
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by walter biscardi on May 23, 2007 at 10:56:08 am
[Romanski in the woods]"So if you had the space and time for going to 10Bit UC instead of Apple ProRes, would it give you an advantage? ProRes seems to be a compressed format and therefore more inaccurate to grade than UC Formats."
Nope, Apple created ProRes just for projects like HDV. 10bit UC would be a waste of space for this project, use ProRes.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.
All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html
Re: Color will not work with HDV?! by Michael Sandness on May 23, 2007 at 2:03:48 pm
Your footage is not uprezzed. It is simply rendering to ProRes, which they describe as visually lossless. Your frame size stays the same size as your HDV material.
Try this out. Again, get on a MacPro with an ATI1900. Work ion Float. Render to ProRes. The results will speak fot themselves!
Michael Sandness
Colorist-Finishing
Splice Here, Minneapolis MN
www.splicehere.tv
have you actually tried this? Its WILDLY messed up by chawla on May 23, 2007 at 3:30:05 pm
every single clip of every single HDV sequence I've passed to Color from an HDV sequence and then rendered out in ProRes and then sent back has been consistently out of sync with the original clip. by like 20 frames on average. When Color renders, its flubbing which frames to send back somehow. And if I only render some clips and not others, the not rendered ones are fine on return (which makes sense seeing as how Color hasn't had its dirty little hands on them yet). And nope, it ain't the the DF/NDF thing, I'm only working with 720P24 and rendering to same in ProRes which also ain't DF.
I'd LOOOOVE someone to show me what I'm doing wrong, because I desperately want this to work. The 3 Way is looking damned caveman-like right now, but at least my clips won't get slipped without my knowledge.
Seriously, does anybody have this HDV>Color>ProRes workflow going?
Here's the workflow to test. I'm using nothing but non-drop, so that shouldn't have anything to do with this. I hope this is user error from too much coffee and not enough hours behind the wheel (about 24 now), but I've run the tests and I keep getting the same results.
720P24 (HDV) sequence with lots of cuts, all on the V1 track (minus a few lower thirds that Color ignores correctly). Sequence rendering set to ProRes (YAYYY!!!!)
Dual 2 Gig Quad 2 gigs RAM Matrox MXO feeding a component CRT and DVI LCD yadda yadda yadda
Send to Color (which shows the proper 23.98 frame rate), do my corrections, render in ProRes, then send back to FCP
Open the (from Color) sequence. Locate a corrected clip, go back to the original sequence go to the same TC number, different video frame. Wait not just different frame, I mean off be like 20 frames. I'm confirming this by the audio being off sync (which never went to color obviously) and even checking against the master clip.
This is every single clip THAT WAS CORRECTED. Not all clips received correction, and the ones that received no correction also have no sync problems (obviously, since they are reconnected to the original media, not new renders).
I know the manual says don't return until you've rendered every single clip in the sequence, but that's silly. Why would I render out clips that have no corrections? And that's going to be the case a bunch of the time (animations, generated clips, non-video stuff in general).
One one-clip sequence I round tripped as a test last night came back with the video portion of the clip literally trimmed back about 6 frames in an L cut!
I'm looking at the clip timecodes in the settings 1 tab (next to the timeline not above it, what a great idea, two tabs with the same name on screen at the same time), and then going back to FCP to the original sequence I sent, and the trim in numbers are totally made up. I have no handles set, but the results were just as random with it set at default 1:00. What is causing this?
I want to believe its me, because I'm not seeing anyone else get these crazy inconsistencies. I don't have the time or inclination to transcode directly to ProRes, or atleast I don't have the time to test it right now as I've already blown a chunk of time trying to make this thing work.
What say you good people? Can someone at least confirm or deny such behavior?
Re: have you actually tried this? Its WILDLY messed up by Patrick Inhofer on May 23, 2007 at 3:47:07 pm
[chawla]"720P24 (HDV) sequence with lots of cuts, all on the V1 track (minus a few lower thirds that Color ignores correctly). Sequence rendering set to ProRes (YAYYY!!!!)"
First thing I'd try is to keep the sequence settings matching to HDV - get that out of the way as the problem. Then in Color render out to ProRes. See what happens.
Also, another troubleshooting step, XML out of Color. Then import into FCP and see if the results match.
jury says... yes, still there by chawla on May 23, 2007 at 4:06:13 pm
"First thing I'd try is to keep the sequence settings matching to HDV - get that out of the way as the problem. Then in Color render out to ProRes. See what happens."
Not exactly sure what you mean here. My sequence settings all match my clip settings, HDV 720P24. The sequence rendering setting is set to ProRes, but that only comes into play when the clips are rendering in the sequence. But just because I've got nothing better to do...
And yes, check again. With sequence rendering set to HDV, this time the in point was off by 3 frame and the out point by 1 frame.
I tried the XML thing last night. Does the same thing. I'm beginning to think its the XML out that's getting flubbed. But without some confirmation that its not just me, this is all a lot of chin music. Can anybody simply take a second and throw some HDV clips in a sequence and send it out to Color? You don't even have to render it, just check the timecodes that come in for me.
Re: have you actually tried this? Its WILDLY messed up by Michael Sandness on May 23, 2007 at 7:38:23 pm
Dude,
I believe this is happening to you, and that it is not you. I have not experienced what your experiencing. That doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Try:
1. Rendering with NO handles. (If your rendering with handles)
2. I'm not sure this isn't a HDV to ProRes issue. 720-24. Whatever. As I've rendered 1080i Sony HDV. Not 720p-24
3. Regarding what you said...
"I know the manual says don't return until you've rendered every single clip in the sequence, but that's silly. Why would I render out clips that have no corrections? And that's going to be the case a bunch of the time (animations, generated clips, non-video stuff in general)."
Coloring only a few clips out of a show is not what Color is for IMHO and experience. This is more than Color correction. It's grading and matching. Matching Lift, Gamma. Gain, Color levels and Temp. Creating looks etc. I feel, if you've only "corrected" a few shots, you now have shots that do not match the shots are not "corrected". What you say about GFX and non-video stuff may be true, but I sometimes still touch up levels just to have matching across the board.
If you need to only touch a few shots. Stay in FCP for correcting, save yourself some heartache, make your deadline and get some sleep!
Try rendering without handles. If it doesn't work. Report this to Apple and let us know! It's not you probably, I'm thinking its this particular HDV format....
Good Luck and report back.
Michael Sandness
Colorist-Finishing
Splice Here, Minneapolis MN
www.splicehere.tv
thanks to the Voice of Calmness! by chawla on May 23, 2007 at 8:08:31 pm
Sometimes one just needs a nap or a cup of coffee. I could use both in that order. I've done this both with and without handles. Doesn't seem to affect the outcome. I'm giving the format dirty looks right now. I'll post if I find out anything.
Regardless of the sense of the workflow, it shouldn't be operating this way. Yeah, I dig the grading thing, but FCP's 3 Way holds no candle to this baby, even in just 24 hours. The sequences I was working on (that I can't get out) took like three or more layers of matte work with those crappy crop and what FCP calls garbage mattes and they still lacked. I was pulling them into Shake before yesterday afternoon. Color had those shots clean in no time. There's no going back after eight (well, sixteen) secondaries. Just gotta either figure this out or move on to a new capture format. If I can get it to work, it will still have been less frustrating than the footage I was working on.
I sho nuff appreciate the voice of calm though. I should go outside right now...
Re: thanks to the Voice of Calmness! by Michael Sandness on May 23, 2007 at 9:18:17 pm
Cool dude...I agree with everything you say, that's why we jumped into FT 2 years ago.
In the future, I might try, digging to ProRes rather than HDV to begin with. I totally dig this doesn't help now...but...I feel one of the best ideas behind ProRes is to digitize to it rather than HDV. I'm not a fan of HDV as a post format. I feel different about DVCProHD as at least there a frames there. Just my opinion though...I could be wrong!
Have a Great Nap!!!!
Michael Sandness
Colorist-Finishing
Splice Here, Minneapolis MN
www.splicehere.tv
