Flanders monitors in PAL land

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Aug 6, 2009 at 1:19:05 pm 1. Yes, PAL is fully supported on all FSI monitors. 2. Yes, all LCD monitors have inherent video processing delays and pixel response times. Also, video processing delays vary on most displays depending on framerate and resolution. We offer three video processing modes Fast, Normal, & Noise Reduction for various applications. What is typically of greatest concern to people is audio/video sync. In fast mode the audio delay is within tolerances that the average user probably won't recognize compared to external audio. However, what we also do is delay the embedded audio (audio disembedder, audio out, and speakers built-in to monitor) to match perfectly with the video. This is important to distinguish from external audio delay equipment because the monitor automatically adjusts the delay depending on processing mode being used by the monitor and incoming resolution and framerate, so manual reconfiguration of audio delay to account for these variables is NOT needed. Bram Desmet FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) www.FlandersScientific.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Aug 6, 2009 at 3:50:03 pm Hi Shawn. Obviously my views on this are extremely biased so perhaps if someone else has seen both units they can comment from a more objective position. However, I can tell you the following things: 1. Judging from your post you should really only be considering our LM-2450W. The LM-2430W is really what we consider a basic engineering monitor and not for use in more critical applications. This means that in a list price comparison we aren't half the cost, but still a considerable amount less expensive. 2. You are right that many of the specifications are similar. However, specifications don't tell the whole story, so seeing it in person or getting some feedback from those that have is always a good idea. However, I will list some rather objective things I think advantageous about our monitor: Can be purchased now (or upgraded later) with 3Gbps SDI option 1100:1 contrast ratio Waveform (Luminance, RGB Parade, YRGB Peak) and Vector Scope that work on ALL inputs Dedicated and separated input, function, and adjustment buttons/knobs AC or DC connection directly on monitor. NO EXTERNAL power supply required for AC operation 16 Channel Audio Level Meters Built-in Speakers as well as headphone jack 2 Year warranty standard Tilting, not static, stand provided at no additional charge Optional ND Filter (if you hate ND Filters no problem if you love them we can do that too) Feel free to contact me off-list for more of a sales pitch :) Bram Desmet FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) www.FlandersScientific.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by walter biscardi on Aug 7, 2009 at 3:14:05 pm [Shawn Larkin] "I was curious how they stack up to the Panasonic BT-LH2550. I'm sure you've heard of this unit. It seems to have almost identical specs as your units but cost twice as much. Do you have any comparison specs/information/testing for your units vs. the Panasonic? " I tested both. Contrast response on the FSI is much better, with or without the ND filter. Practical viewing angle is wider on the FSI. I don't understand the power supply thing on the Panasonic, very clunky in my opinion. Both are good monitors, but for my money, the FSI was much better hands down. I personally prefer the ND Filter for our rooms. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author. Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards. Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post Biscardi Creative Media Creative Cow Forum Host: Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. Read my Blog! Twitter! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by walter biscardi on Aug 7, 2009 at 3:45:41 pm [Shawn Larkin] "Can you display true 10 bit images on a broadcast lcd monitor? Like does the Panasonic have this advantage? Or are all the panels limited to the same 8 bit display technology and only the processing of the 10 bit signal is done/rounded-down/quantized for the 8 bit display? " Bram can answer the technical side of things better, but all FSI panels have 10bit processing as well. We have had no banding issues on our panels other than what's already in the original signal. I.e. we see the same banding on our original HD CRT monitors as we see on the FSI panels. 10 bit displays beautifully on the FSIs as does RED 2 and 4k. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author. Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards. Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post Biscardi Creative Media Creative Cow Forum Host: Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. Read my Blog! Twitter! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Aug 7, 2009 at 3:55:45 pm Both the Panasonic and FSI monitors perform full 10 bit processing, but are equipped with 8 bit LCD panels. Their is a distinct advantage in having 10 bit processing capabilities even with an 8 bit panel and most of the mid-range to high-end broadcast monitors on the market perform at least 10 bit processing. My humble opinion on the necessity of a full 10 bit LCD panel is that it depends very much on your application. If the monitor is going into a telecine operation that yes I think 10 bit would be a must have item. However, even many of the full 10 bit LCD monitors on the market come up short in these highly color critical applications. For most applications short of the telecine suite the 8 bit panel with 10 bit processing is, IMHO, more than sufficient...especially if you don't have an unlimited amount of money to spend on monitors. Bram Desmet FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) www.FlandersScientific.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by walter biscardi on Aug 7, 2009 at 6:51:26 pm [Shawn Larkin] "Unless there is some other alternative? Oh, yeah...eCinema Displays; are these or the other super expensive lcd displays able to show the full 10 bit range? What about 12 bit? " You'll have to talk to the folks who use them. They're outside my price range, especially since we needed three identical monitors in our suites, so I did not even bother to look at them. All the monitors I compared were 8bit panels and they more than exceed our needs. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author. Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards. Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post Biscardi Creative Media Creative Cow Forum Host: Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. Read my Blog! Twitter! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Aug 7, 2009 at 9:21:32 pm Good question, let me see if I can give a concise answer that won't require a white paper :) The advantage of leaving it to the display to go from 10bit to 8bit is that it helps eliminate errors (in rounding calculations, but also in elimination of least significant bits). This is especially true when you start taking that 10 bit information and processing it for optimal display on a particular monitor. Imagine for example all of the calculations that go into a 3D LUT (which monitors like ours and others have), you want to base that on the incoming 10bit signal and let the monitor decide how best to display that on its 8 bit panel. It would be difficult for external equipment to judge how best to quantify the incoming 10 bit information in such a way as to minimize errors and provide optimum display on a particular monitor. Additionally, monitors are often used with multiple source types and equipment so you want this 10bit processing to 8 bit display calculation to be consistent between various signals, and thus left to the display device. Also keep in mind that when it comes to what is essentially the end user's finished product, most material is viewed at the 8 bit level (Satellite, Cable, DVD, BluRay, etc.). Film is the obvious example of a clear cut scenario where higher processing and display bit depth is a big advantage...the question in those scenarios often becomes whether even 10bit display bit depth is good enough? I don't think there is a clear cut answer. The best we as manufacturers can do is tell you what we can and can't do and let the people who will use the equipment (such as yourself) make the judgment call as to what is good enough for their application. When all is said and done I think the question becomes what can you afford? If a true 10bit broadcast monitor is in your price range then you should consider it. However, there are a lot of variables besides bit depth to consider and specifications alone will not tell you the whole story. Bram Desmet FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) www.FlandersScientific.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Aug 8, 2009 at 1:32:05 am 1. Many, many variables here. There are people who likely know a lot more about this than I do as I don't deal with BluRay on a daily basis, but my understanding is that the format CAN support 10 bit, but CAN is much different than DO. It will depend largely on the compression format used (ie most early BD used MPEG2 so 8bit limitation follows logically from that), but the conventional wisdom passed on to me by people who work with BluRay often is that virtually all commercially available BluRay titles are 8bit. Additionally, we need to consider whether the BluRay player has a 10bit processor. Then we need to consider if the video output being used from the player supports 10bit. Then we need to see if the display is 10bit, and most consumer LCD TVs are only 8bit. You are right to ask about Plasmas, but that is a technology that has swiftly lost ground to LCD TVs and IMHO will continue to do so as manufacturers pull out of the technology and as the nagging power consumption issue of Plasma TVs attracts unfavorable attention (government restrictions and all, no joke). 2. True 10 bit LCD TVs will be much more widely available in the near future, but what is unlikely to change anytime soon is the fact that television to the home (cable, satellite, etc.) is 8bit. Again, I think the key concept here is that if you can get 10bit at a price you can afford with the other performance characteristics and professional features you need, then you should go that route. However, if the true 10bit broadcast monitors that meet your other requirements are simply not in your price range, then a good 8bit display with 10bit processing can get the job done in a majority of applications. One thing is for sure, professional 10bit offerings will undoubtedly become more prevalent and prices will continue to come down. Your point about how perceptible these differences are is a very good one. I think other display characteristics are often much more noticeable. Bram Desmet FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) www.FlandersScientific.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by walter biscardi on Aug 21, 2009 at 11:12:31 pm [ajay bhadresa] "Can the FSI do a Quad split on the scopes and display all 4 scopes at the same time? " No. One scope at a time. [ajay bhadresa] "2. Also, can anyone point me onto a good tutorial for calibrating my monitor (PAL land)? " It should have arrived already calibrated for your use. You can also rent a Probe kit from FSI and recalibrate your display. This is covered on their website in the Video Manual. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author. Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards. Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post Biscardi Creative Media Creative Cow Forum Host: Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. Read my Blog! Twitter! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Aug 22, 2009 at 4:53:26 pm Hi all. Your monitor is correctly precalibrated from the factory and you should not need to recalibrate or change anything. There are a few variables to consider, all of which our monitor has specific settings for, but realignment is unnecessary. If you have specific questions regarding your display please contact us at support@flandersscientific.com. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Jay Moffat on Nov 3, 2009 at 10:32:18 am Hi there, a slight hi-jack, but relevant... For the alignment of the monitor, under what circumstances does this need to be done? And being a user in the UK, is there an alternative to buying a kit over here, if it is something that needs to be done with any regularity? Also on the subject of scopes, is there an advantage/disadvantage of having them on the actual monitor? Can the scopes be fed to an external monitor thus saving the requirement of purchasing external scopes, I suppose my question on this are they along the same lines as the Blackmagic Ultrascope...I suspect feeding them to another monitor rather defeats the point of having them on the monitor, but I prefer them separate myself. Ta! J Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2009 at 10:51:40 am [Jay Moffat] "For the alignment of the monitor, under what circumstances does this need to be done?" About once per year. [Jay Moffat] "Can the scopes be fed to an external monitor thus saving the requirement of purchasing external scopes," No, the scopes themselves cannot be fed to another monitor, but if you purchase an external scope, you can loop the video feed through the FSI to the scope. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author. HD Post and Production Biscardi Creative Media "Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post. Creative Cow Forum Host: Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. Blog! Twitter! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Jay Moffat on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:41:55 am This would be something that all colour critical LCD displays would presumably require? Sorry, I'm a little uninformed on the subject J Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:49:34 am [Jay Moffat] "This would be something that all colour critical LCD displays would presumably require? Sorry, I'm a little uninformed on the subject " Depends on the manufacturer. Each can tell you the proper calibration schedule and techniques. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author. HD Post and Production Biscardi Creative Media "Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post. Creative Cow Forum Host: Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. Blog! Twitter! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Bram Desmet on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:45:01 am Hi Jay, The primary thing that will drift overtime is the luminance, not so much the color temperature. You can offset this simply by increasing the backlight setting as the monitor ages. This technology tends to be much more stable the CRT monitors and depending on how color critical the application is many customers may never realign their displays. While it is not possible to do a full calibration manually we have just recently added some toggles to the alignment menu allowing for several times more adjustment range than I would ever expect a monitor to drift over time. All this means is that you have many options: rental or purchase of automatic alignment kit, manual adjustment over time, or simple backlight adjustment to account for the primary drift factor on the monitor (luminance). The scopes cannot be looped out and are not a 100% replacement for standalone scopes, but for many applications they are more than sufficient. One advantage of the built in Scopes is that they work on all inputs, even DVI, which is extremely difficult to find in standalone scopes. Bram Desmet FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) www.FlandersScientific.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: Flanders monitors in PAL land by Jay Moffat on Nov 3, 2009 at 12:04:54 pm Thanks chaps! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index