Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?!
by lisa rolley
on
Jun 22, 2009 at 4:13:47 pm
Hey gang,
So i am working on 24fps 1920x1080 ProRes RED project and everytime i send my grades after rendering in color back into fcp and then kick out a quicktime movie the resulting playback is jittery...i have no speed changes applied when sending to color the only thing that the 1 video track has are some cross dissolves - other than that there are no filters or anything like it.
Can anyone explain to me what is going on?? The original ProRes clips i made form the 2k 24fps red footage look fine - and when editing in fco they also were fine - the jitter issues only appears when sending back from Color to FCP.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 4:31:54 pm
color is not open at all i quit out after sending back to fcp...i will check each clips motion tab etc but like i said - i never applied any speed changes to the clips the only thing going on were transitions (dip to color and cross dissolve)
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 5:04:13 pm
UPDATE:
I also am just noticing now that all of the transitions did not stay the same when i sent it back from FCP - what is going why is COLOR being so annoying!?!? UGHH it makes me not want to use it if its going to change the way my cut functions...in places where I had a dip to color dissolve it is now and cross dissolve n one clip only and when i try to reapply a dip to color i get an error message that there is insufficient content for edit when there is clearly enough footage for this effect!!
please tell me this is a fixable bug i need to deliver today the whole project on adrive to my client and now all this color buggy stuff is happening - i am so pissed at apple!?
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Shane Ross on Jun 22, 2009 at 6:40:39 pm
[lisa rolley]"when i try to reapply a dip to color i get an error message that there is insufficient content for edit when there is clearly enough footage for this effect!! "
Did you render out of Color with HANDLES? Color defaults to 0:00:00 handles...you need to manually change that. With no handles out of Color then the transitions won't work.
Have you adjusted any of the Proj. Settings? Like export codec being the ORIGINAL FORMAT and the Internal Pixel Format to 10-bit or anything else? Maintain frame rate...stuff like that?
The settings in FCP, are they still 24fps, or are they 29.97 (just curious, worth checking)?
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 7:09:46 pm
Hey Shane thanks for the response!
ok so i am looking in color's project settings window right now and the first thing i notice is that the handles is set to that default - its weird i studied the Lynda.com tutorials a few times and i dont remember them addressing this at all but it seems like such an important detail...what should i set it to??
Export codec is set to original (ProRes (HQ) as it should be no??
The Frame rate back in fcp is also still 24fps so that did not change.
Looking at the user prefs tab i do see that the internal pixel format is set to 10bit - should it b something else?
I do not see where the "Maintain frame rate"option is in any of the set up tabs but let me know.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Shane Ross on Jun 22, 2009 at 7:17:14 pm
[lisa rolley]".what should i set it to?? "
Well, what do you WANT it to be set to? 1 second is typical, this allows for 2 second dissolves. I tend to to 2-3 seconds, as I have some longer transitions. 0 handles has a lot of issues.
Maintain Frame Rate is in the USER SETTINGS, but is checked on by default. Everything else looks good as far as the settings I mentioned. But question, render is set to ProRes HQ...Your original footage is what codec?
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 7:27:05 pm
ok i set the handles to be 2 seconds thanks for that info - i wonder why this is not mentioned in tutorials?!
the codec is the same as the fcp sequence and the footage itself...prores hq 24fps
thanks for the help shane - at least the transition issue is resolved - as for the stuttery playback when sending back to fcp i still have no answers - i wonder if its linked to the other post i had from last week for this same project - that is, when i increase the speed of any clip it plays jittery - a very similar problem and on this same project?!
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Shane Ross on Jun 22, 2009 at 7:53:04 pm
[lisa rolley]" i wonder why this is not mentioned in tutorials?! "
You are watching the wrong tutorials. I have the Ripple Training DVD and one by the guy who wrote the color manual, Alexis Van Hurkman. Both mention this important fact. They go over what all the settings are. Whoever did the Lynda.com ones missed a vital thing and shouldn't get paid for the tutorial!
[lisa rolley]"when i increase the speed of any clip it plays jitter"
At 24fps, it will look jittery. That isn't a lot of frames to play with.
Any way to post small QTs (encoded as h.264) as an example of before and after, so we can see this jitteriness that you talk about?
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 8:16:35 pm
hmm yeah i mean i did a post about this jittery playback last week and nobody last time i checked had any answers - i would to post some lil vids thats a great idea abut i am a little concerned about just posting them for everyone to see - i have a client who would not be happy with that so if there is another way to get them to you personally sure : )
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 9:19:10 pm
update:
having re-rendered this :30 spot with handles now things are REALLY messed up at all the transitons - i am having picture jump around - i dont know whats going on here but it made things MUCH WORSE...my first clip even cross dissolves in and then jump back to another frame!?!
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 9:29:31 pm
I guess my question is when adding 2-3 seconds of handles why is fcp having problems ignoring the extra bits of handle when receiving back the file from fcp??
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Shane Ross on Jun 22, 2009 at 9:17:25 pm
Well then...I don't know what is up. Unless we can sit over your shoulder and see what you do step by step...unless you want to type down every stinkin' thing you do exactly, step by step, I don't know what we can do to see what you are doing wrong. Because something you are doing is not right. This works for a majority of the people out there, and when it doesn't work, there is usually some operator error involved. And I have been involved in my fair share of operator error.
I'm sure there's operator error behind this as you are learning this as you do this, watching tutorials and going thru things all trial and error on your own, only relying on help from the forums. When I do things for the first time I am RIFE with issues....which is why I tend to do tests before we shoot, and DEFINATELY before I leap into post.
I just started learning Color myself. I gave myself a week to work all the bugs out on my end before I lept into the fray. Two days running the Ripple Training tutorial and Alexis Van Hurkman tutorial, three days sending sequences to and from Color and seeing what happened, and what I needed to correct. And even then, I relied on personal help from experts in Color. I STILL call them (although I should post on the forum so people see the questions and answers and realize I ain't no expert with Color!)
I hope you can figure this out. If not, I'd avoid COLOR for now and stick to using the 3-way on this project, if you have a tight deadline and need to get something out the door.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 9:38:50 pm
yeah i hear you - well aside from the expert color people's advice i have done very similar steps and have used color on a RED project before so this is just not making sense - anyways thanks for the help and wish me luck!?!
best
Lisa
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 10:09:23 pm
just momnitoring on a computer for now - its all 24fps so i cant really get proper playback on an extrenal monitor - i would have to cofnorm to 23.98 as these guys have explained to me on my first red project which was 4k 24fps - this one is 2k 24fps but having this issue with jittery playback...
thanks for the trouble shooting guys - i am just still at a lost as to why when adding the 2or 3 sec handles in prefs for Color why its messing everything up majorly...shane you might right about user error but i have followed everything you said thoroughly...I've decided to just set it back to no handles and apply dissolves myself to the end and beginning of those clips in question as opposed to dip to color dissolves between the clips - what else can i do if the handle thing is not working.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Mike Most on Jun 22, 2009 at 10:59:26 pm
Is there an AJA Kona card in this system? If so, the settings on the AJA Control Panel must match your sequence, especially in terms of frame rate. One way to see if this is part of the problem is to turn external video off. It should then play smoothly on the computer monitor. If that's the case, turn external video back on and select a viewing setting (in Final Cut) that is correct for the material you're cutting. The Kona card is very finicky about 24 vs. 23.98.
Incidentally, all of the issues you're bringing up are among the many reasons I always advise anyone in the US to shoot and post at 23.98.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Joseph Owens on Jun 22, 2009 at 11:00:30 pm
This does have the feel of a problem between 24.000 and 23.976. I know that my Kona3 simply refuses to budge if there is a discrepancy. I'd examine a few of the render clips under QT to get a handle on its true nature, but speaking of handles, I stay away from them like the plague.
Not being able to handle transitions without adding handles is simply not true.
There was a version of Final Touch that moved all the keyframes and so on toward the head of the clip by the amount of handle applied. That was unpleasant. But the reality is that COLOR does take the transition offset into account. I have not had a problem with it. I do get warnings of insufficient media when trying to imbed sequences and copy/paste clips en masse, but never when doing them one at a time, or deleting underlying original media before dropping the corrected files into a timeline. When I do that there are no gaps or displacements, so obviously all the frames are there.
I would be more concerned about whether all the REDCODE boxes got checked off properly when the media was imported into FCP. This is not a mature workflow by any stretch of the imagination.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 22, 2009 at 11:21:28 pm
I am using Blackmagic not Kona not sure where that came from - regardless i will try that plyback idea to see if it changes anything - next - I used RedRushes to make my ProRes (HQ) 24fps qt files before i ever brought them into FCP.
checking the renders in qt now and they are fine - the problems are occurring when i send back to fcp
i also noticed the timing with my audio was set off and i had to bump the video forward about 5 frames to get it back in sync.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Mike Most on Jun 23, 2009 at 4:42:11 am
Quicktime knows nothing about the Blackmagic card and only cares about playing the clip on the computer monitor. Final Cut attempts to reconcile timeline playback to the video output card settings, hence why having 24 frame clips and a 23.98 video card setting will cause a conflict and the problem you're seeing.
I just looked at the Decklink specs, and one other issue might be coming into play here. The Blackmagic cards support only psF, not P. Check your output settings again and make sure it's set to output psF, not 24P. That would likely cause the problem as well.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 23, 2009 at 2:25:21 pm
An important clarification here is that the stuttery playback I am seeing is really only evident in the QT exports I am making from the sequence...in FCP it does not look that bad - i thought i made this clear.
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Jeremy Garchow on Jun 23, 2009 at 2:44:11 pm
Your subject makes it confusing.
So the renders playback fine, in FCP the timeline plays back fine (despite you saying the playback is stuttery) but as soon as you export, it doesn't playback properly.
A couple of ideas. One, your timeline is set to 23.98 and not 24.0. Your export is set to 23.98 and not 24.0, or the drive you are exporting to is not fast enough to playback the media.
How are you exporting out of FCP and in what format?
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by lisa rolley on Jun 23, 2009 at 3:40:19 pm
Hey Jeremy
sorry about the confusing thread
SO - everything is 24 the sequence - my export is just quicktime move nothing special - i am exporting and playing back the qt file from an XSAN via fibre connection so it should not be that right...
not sure what could be causing this jittery playback - its just not smoothe compaired to the non-color effected clips
Re: Stuttery Playback when sending back to FCP!?! by Mike Most on Jun 23, 2009 at 6:00:49 pm
If your exported movie is uncompressed, you need at least 250-300 Megabytes (MegaBYTES, not bits) per second of throughput from the storage device to achieve smooth playback. Possibly more, if you're using Quicktime Player. Many SAN's won't provide that. You might want to load the file on a local array (if you have one and it can deliver that kind of speed).
