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24fps workflow

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TtotheD24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 12:47:05 am

Me again. So far i am having a great time with my new FCP setup. I was able to get all of the footage in and edited well, but then I hooked up the TV via firewire and it appears as if I am having a bit of a deinterlacing issue or something. Let me break it down for you and hopefully you can help.

-We shot with TWO DVX-100 cameras. One did NOT shoot 24pAdvanced so we just shot each one in 24p.
-When I setup the project I chose the "DV-NTSC 24p (23.98)" easy setup, although when I look at the easy setup now it appears that I may have chosen "ADVANCED PULLDOWN" instead.
-The playback deck was just a little MiniDV camera that does not SHOOT 24p, but I don't think that matters as I have digitized from it before.
-I did my initial edit on my laptop, so the "interlacing" issue wasn't noticeable.
-I connected to a TV and also made a one off DVD of the video and it looks really jittery, especially on camera moves. Definelty not the way it is supposed to look, it should be smoother.

So, tow questions:
1-What did I do wrong?
2-How can I fix it now? Can I just change the easy setup back to regular 24p, or if I do that will I also have to re-capture?

The client will be coming on Friday to work on the edit with me and I'd like to have it fixed before then if possible. Can I re-capture a different way that will make it correct?

Also, a side question is about audio mixing. I have a full scene that needs all of the audio louder. I was hoping to just select all of hte audio clips and slide the slider up, but it doesn't apply to all of the clips, just the one that I am on. From what I can read in the manual, you cannot do it on a track or multi-clip basis. I hope this is NOT correct. How can I do this?


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David BattistellaRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 1:53:08 am



24P is actually 29.97. If you capture it at 29.97 the pulldown has been inserted on the tape. There is no need to remove this pulldown UNLESS you have a video card that can display 23.98 material.

I would recapture with the DV 48k preset and this should solve part of the problem. A caution though. 24P does create jaggies and jumpiness on pans and any movment that is too fast. This has to do with the framerate and the shutter and is not a problem with the camera. This is exactly how film behaves on similar moves.

Make a copy of the project. make the media offline and recapture it with the new capture setting. Be sure to "ignore logged clip settings"


David





Peace and Love :)


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Russell LassonRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 4:36:10 pm

After editing many shows with 24P issues, I have a policy to edit at whatever the show was shot at.

If the show was shot at 24P on a DVX100, then the camera added a 2:3 pulldown to convert it to 29.97. Changes are, all of your footage is at 29.97. What is your timeline set at? 23.98 or 29.97? Do you have to render every clip when you put it on your timeline?

If your footage had been shot at 24PA then you could have removed the 2:3:3:2 (24PA) pulldown when you digitized it over firewire. But since you shot it at 24P, you'll need to use Cinema Tools. You'll want to try it on a couple of test clips first so you figure out how to do it.

It isn't necessary to remove the pulldown, but I do it because I'm kind of a video pureist and I consider it a type of post production "best practices."

One advantage is that you can encode a 23.98 file straight to MPEG-2 and put it on a DVD. DVD players have the option of playing it out with a 2:3 pulldown (for most TVs) or progressive scan (for certain projectors and flat panel TV that can handle 24P footage.)

Sorry if this is a little confusing. Good luck though and feel free to ask any other questions.

-Russ


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TtotheDRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 7:31:25 pm

Yes, I am a little confused. So, are you saying that I should have a 23.98 timeline or a 29.97? When I put hte footage on the timeline it does need to be rendered if I turn it to safe RT. I am still confused by how all of this works. I came from the Avid world and there I would have to digitize at 23.98. So, what would I do with cinema tools? Where do I go from here? Do I redigitize or convert them somehow?


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Russell LassonRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 8:06:41 pm

From the sound of it, you don't have your timeline set up right. This is probably the root of your problem. You shouldn't be having the problems that you're having, even if you are editing 29.97 footage with a 2:3 pulldown.

Here is what you need to do.

1. Find out the frame rate of your footage.

In the browser, change the view to list, scroll over to the frame rate column 


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TtotheDRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:04:34 pm

Okay, here is what I have found:

1-Footage vid rate all says 29.97.
2-But, my sequence is set to 23.98

Did what you said and it doesn't look much different on my monitor. It might be a BIT cleaner. Also, I noticed that a few shots now say that they are out os synch by a frame or two. These are clips that I synched together with the live audio. What about field order? Do I need to be concerned with that?

Does it matter that I setup the easy setup to 23.98 before I captured? I guess Final Cut figured it out on its own.

I am also not 100% sure about the whole render thing. It is still saying "unrendered" when plaiynhg SAFE and just stalling out when playing "UNLIMITED". I don't have a screaming machine (iMac), but this is pretty basic footage so I thought it would work.

thanks for your help on this. I guess I really messed things up.


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TtotheDRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:12:29 pm

I guess I lied. It doesn't seem to have to render anymore, it did once, but really quickly. Also, all of my audio enveloping is messed up, but I can fix that no problem. It still doesn't look as sharp as I would expect though.


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Russell LassonRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:26:30 pm

You're definately on the right path. As far as how it looks, you looking at it in the canvas window and it doesn't look that good, right? Resize the window so it shows 100% resolution instead of whatever it currently says.

Another thing that you can do is export the video as a quicktime movie (not quicktime conversion). Open that files up and hit Apple+J. Select the video track and then under visual setting select High Quality video. Then play the movie back and see how it looks.

-Russ


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TtotheDRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:34:19 pm

Actually, it looks really good in the canvas, clean. But, when it goes down the firewire to my TV it doesn' look that great. I do know the "feel" of 24p, but it looks like it is not coming out right. Maybe becasue it is 24p rather then 24pA, which is what i am used to editing in.

I can also try making a DVD itself. Now that it is 29.97 it will look better I bet.

So, the field order I don't have to worry about? It looks funny in the canvas, even at 100%.


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David BattistellaRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:29:11 pm



T,

Tell me how you have to finish and I will provide the workflow.

I agree with Russel's points but if you have to finsih for TV or to tape then the best route, BASED ON HOW YOUR FOOTAGE WAS SHOT, is to stay in the 29.97 framerate.

If you shot 24PA, whcih you did not, then you can make the choice to remove the redeundant frames on the tape upon capture.

Coming from AVID you need a more basic understaning of FCP and the infinte number of presets it has. It's not so cut and dried as capturing in the AVID, which has limited settings with only their proprietary codec.


David



Peace and Love :)


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Russell LassonRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:33:14 pm

I agree. For now, you should probably just stay in 29.97. As you get more experienced with FCP, you can start worrying about editing in true 23.98. But for starters, it pretty tricky.

-Russ


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TtotheDRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:41:00 pm

Yes, I am realizing that I need to get more familiar with it. I didn't realize all the settings in different places.

I will be finishing on a DVD that will playback on a video projector, for a users conference. So, now that my seuqence is at 29.97 and the footage is at 29.97, can I jsut be done and send to DVD? I don't need to re-capture, right?

really, truly, appreciate all the help and the fast responses!


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Russell LassonRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 9:56:38 pm

I would burn a test DVD and see how you like it. If it looks good enough, then you're fine. If not, then we can go back to the drawing board.

-Russ


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TtotheDRe: 24fps workflow
by on Apr 5, 2007 at 10:11:12 pm

Great. I'll try that and let you know.

thanks


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