What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ?
by chris forrester
on
Aug 3, 2009 at 12:24:43 am
I was thinking the other day about lossless codecs, and was reminded that many years ago I remembered a codec that said it had 2:1 compression realtime encoding/decoding and was on mac and pc. This codec was called sheer video by bitjazz. Well a little research and looking to there site reveals that there has been no news updates since june 2007 and mixed voices on the codec. Also there seemed an aggressive promotional scheme where by they will give you a free license if you promote them so my web research might be biased on this codec..I have DL'd the trial and tried it on some footage not extensively but my gut feeling is that now in 2009 there are some new codecs around that give good compression and fast decoding/encoding that are lossless, and not at a such a cost.
This paper does tests on these codecs
Alpary, ArithYuv, AVIzlib, CamStudio GZIP, CorePNG, FastCodec, FFV1, Huffyuv, Lagarith, LOCO, LZO, MSU Lab, PICVideo, Snow, x264, YULS
in 2007 they concluded this
" In Video Capture and Video Editing Area the overall clear winner is Lagarith.
In Maximum Compression area the overall winner is YULS.
The most balanced and flexible codec is FFV1: relatively good speed and high compression for various presets."
Now so far my problem :-P I am on a MAC, and I have been trying to find the "better" codecs for my operating system but I can not find them or they are not being developed for this operating system.
I used to use ANIMATION Codec, but in my reading heard of PNG format in video, so I might be trying this out more often. I am more than used to dealing with the large file sizes of uncompressed video I just thought it might be time to look and see if I can tighten up in this area with some good use of codecs. I am open to any suggestions paid or free.
Maybe some MAC users know where I might find the install files for some of the listed codecs above?
Either way would love to hear your suggestions and personal experiences. (maybe you know another forum here that other people might be able to chime in some suggestions or have knowledge in this field).
I am thinking that perhaps we have all gotten used to using animation or uncompressed though :-P
Look forward to the opinions even if its just a quick post saying "ANIMATION" !
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Todd Kopriva on Aug 3, 2009 at 1:20:57 am
Animation and PNG are both excellent choices. Animation does better for things with large expanses of the same color, like cartoons (hence its name), and PNG does better with more photorealistic gradients. For most of what people do with After Effects, I think that PNG in a QuickTime container works well as a nearly universal lossless compression format in a nearly universal container... but Animation might do better in some cases.
BTW, I recognize that this is a VERY (overly) simple answer to a very complex question. E.g., if you are using a codec as an interchange format within your own workflow, then universality doesn't matter so much, and you can use whatever esoteric codec that you want. Also, there's the issue of 8-bpc versus 10-bpc versus 16-bpc versus 32-bpc formats. Animation is 8-bpc. If you're handing off something as an intermediate file, and you'd rather not lose the data that gets quantized out with an 8-bpc codec, then the conversation gets more interesting.
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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
putting the 'T' back in 'RTFM' : After Effects Help on the Web ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Dave LaRonde on Aug 3, 2009 at 4:34:04 pm
Todd covers the topic very well. I'd only add a couple of things:
If I was required to deliver a MOVIE, I'd use animation. If I was required to deliver an image sequence, I'd use PNG. But that's just me.
If you like being on the bleeding edge, I've heard very good things about the new ProRes codecs in Final Cut Suite 3. However, you can't get them for Windows boxes, nor for any Mac not loaded with FCS 3. Apple has made them available only for FCS3-equipped boxes.
The toads.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Adolfo Rozenfeld on Aug 3, 2009 at 6:27:35 pm
Dave:
Todd didn't mean a sequence of PNG stills, but rather using PNG encoding in a Quicktime file. It's mathemtically lossless. It supports alpha channels. It's cross-platform. The two drawbacks are: No higher bit depths (16/32 bpc), and zero performance optimizations (just like Animation, but even worse). It's more an exchange or "digital freezer" flavor, because real time playback can be challenging. It's great when going from one app to another, for example.
Animation produces smaller sizes in content which has large areas of plain color (a lower third can be as low as 1 MB/s and it's still lossless). PNG produces smaller file sizes for most "video" content.
ProRes is "visually lossless", not mathemtically lossless. A loose term which means that on simple inspection it looks identical to the original. But it's not really identical to the original :)
Apple offers free ProRes decoders for Macs without FCS, and also for Windows. You can read QT ProRes files that way, but not generate them. I don't think these free decoders have been updated for the new ProRes flavors yet.
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Dave LaRonde on Aug 3, 2009 at 8:26:51 pm
[Adolfo Rozenfeld]"...Apple offers free ProRes decoders for Macs without FCS, and also for Windows. You can read QT ProRes files that way, but not generate them. I don't think these free decoders have been updated for the new ProRes flavors yet. "
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I just automatically think the worst of Apple. At least it isn't a platform war thing: I regard Microsoft with the same jaundiced eye.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Adolfo Rozenfeld on Aug 3, 2009 at 8:31:35 pm
It used to be true that ProRes files could only be opened if you had FCS, Dave. It's not a mistake what you said. The free ProRes decoders for Mac and Win were introduced recently.
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by chris forrester on Aug 11, 2009 at 12:00:08 am
Thanks for the input given :-)
I think for the moment I will stick with aimation codec least I can get 25fps playback of my drives when using my laptop. I did recently create a QT in png format and was only able to get 15fps playback on my system (playing from QT Player). I am guessing the compression is slowing things down. I shall probably use that for long term archiving in the the future.
Pity no one has seen those other codecs on the Mac yet, they do interest me so I may just have to do some more investigation but with my PC (that poor thing is gathering some dust nowdays :-P )
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Victor Burgin on Sep 5, 2009 at 10:06:55 am
<< I will stick with aimation codec least I can get 25fps playback of my drives when using my laptop >>
At what frame size? I have a 24 fps 1400 x 1050 (SXGA+) Animation that plays back fine from my Mac Pro, but staggers on my 2.4 GHz 7200 rpm MacBook Pro. Conversion to H.264 gives smooth motion but produces unacceptable artefacts (e.g., posterizing on even surfaces). I have to hand the movie over soon for playback from a recent model iMac – so I need help!
Any further insights anyone can offer greatly appreciated.
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Marcello Mazzilli on Oct 19, 2009 at 7:58:43 pm
Somebody found out some good solution? Pro-Res is realtime in Final Cut but not on Adobe Premiere... Is there something for Mac like Cineform Prospect HD (great realtime playback on PC/ Adobe Premiere) for Mac? I can play realtime XDCAM ( MP4 wrapped )and P2 but these are shooting formats and not really good formats to use as intermediates when working with HDV for example.
Also.. why the hell Premiere works realtime with XDCAM MP4 wrapper and not MOV wrapper.. BUT EXPORTS MOV WRAPPER AND NOT MP4 WRAPPER ?!?!
siRoma di Marcello Mazzilli
Corporate video productions in Italy
www.siroma.com
Re: What codec do you use for lossless video in particular for MAC OS X ? by Dave LaRonde on Oct 19, 2009 at 8:37:02 pm
[Marcello Mazzilli]"...Premiere (on Mac) doesn't use Pro-Res in realtime like Final Cut does..."
I have no explanation for that. All I can say is that until the day comes when Microsoft, Adobe and Apple all decide to use the same multimedia standards, life will be harder than it has to be. In any case, importing mp4 video into AE, whether it's on a Windows box or a Mac, is a bad idea:
Dave's Stock Answer #1:
If the footage you imported into AE is any kind of the following -- footage in an HDV acquisition codec, MPEG1, MPEG2, mp4, m2t, H.261 or H.264 -- you need to convert it to a different codec.
These kinds of footage use temporal, or interframe compression. They have keyframes at regular intervals, containing complete frame information. However, the frames in between do NOT have complete information. Interframe codecs toss out duplicated information.
In order to maintain peak rendering efficiency, AE needs complete information for each and every frame. But because these kinds of footage contain only partial information, AE freaks out, resulting in a wide variety of problems.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
