720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps)
by lisa rolley
on
Apr 2, 2009 at 5:14:26 pm
Hello friends,
I need to convert a sequence from FCP which is 720P60 (960x720) 23.98 into HD for Layoff - specifically it needs to be 1920x1080 59.94 fields and i guess 29.97 FPS : )
I am fairly new to AE and have actually never had to do this before which is why i posted in the basics section...i hope this is not too easy of a question for this forum.
If anyone can explain to me how best to do this I would greatly appreciate the help...from what I understand at this point i am meant to make a new comp which is 1920x1080 at the current frame rate of my video file (23.980 and then in the render que set it to field render (?)...the specifics of this process i am not clear on and as iam sure you all are aware there are some things one can set incorrectly.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Joey Burnham on Apr 2, 2009 at 5:40:03 pm
what is your budget? you are correct in nesting your comp into a new 1920 x 1080 comp at 23.976 (NOT 23.98), then scaling to fit. Render that out and take that in your NLE. The conversion from 23.976 to 59.94 (29.97) isn't pretty unless you go through a proper converter. (Snell and Wilcox, Teranex, etc)
Joey
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Kevin Camp on Apr 2, 2009 at 6:14:47 pm
actually, ae should handle the telecine conversion from 23.976 to 59.94 interlaced quite well if you need to get it to 59.94 interlaced for a 59.94i timeline in your nle...
create your comp joey describes (1920x1080, 23.976 fps) and add your 23.976 footage and scale to fit comp (layer>transform>scale to fit). then when you render, click the render settings and choose to render fields (upper first for 1080) and select a pulldown cadence (any should work fine). you'll notice that in the frame rate in render settings changes to 29.97 when you select a pulldown. then render and you'll have a 29.97 fps interlaced (59.94 fields/sec) render to work with.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Joey Burnham on Apr 2, 2009 at 6:24:08 pm
Depends on your standards I guess. Only reason I say that is because I've had footage rejected that was converted in AE. Depends mostly on your client. In the conversion world you get what you pay for. Quite well definitely works in a lot of situations but if your client is expecting perfection AE is not the way to go for frame rate conversions.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Chris Wright on Apr 2, 2009 at 8:21:32 pm
Make sure AE comp is set 23.976 not 23.98. AE needs to be very precise.
Kevin is right about the pulldown, but you should know that it pretty much keeps the "look" the same. It will still look like film movement, and I recommend pulldown cadence WWSSW as that is the closest pulldown to film minimizing stutter.
HELP!! stuttering on NTSC Monitor - Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 10, 2009 at 7:23:52 pm
SO its finally time to layoff to HDCAM and when bringing the render from AE back to FCP and rendering fro Animation to 8bit uncompressed on the fcp timeline...i have done a few tests and the stuttering is still there.
ANy ideas???
I have to layoff by EOD and iam beginning to freak out here, i followed the instructions you all gave me but this problem is now only visible on the NTSC monitor - I had not seen this up to this point because i was looking at a computer monitor.
Re: HELP!! stuttering on NTSC Monitor - 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Chris Wright on Apr 10, 2009 at 8:17:49 pm
Playback in FCP with 8bit uncompressed sent to a NTSC monitor in realtime requires a lot. Are you talking about the HDCAM preview or a realtime uncompressed FCP preview?
Re: HELP!! stuttering on NTSC Monitor - 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 10, 2009 at 8:23:22 pm
yes we have a fibre-channel connection andh ave been able to play back real time...still cannot figure out this issue - the jitters wont go away!
any other thoughts or suggestions?
lisa
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 3:32:18 am
New dilema: Now i need to then take that converted file and make it ltrbx D1 for dvdsp DVD encoding. What would that process be in AE if I had to use the 1080i converted file to go to SD DVD?
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Dave LaRonde on Apr 14, 2009 at 4:17:57 pm
[lisa rolley]"Now i need to then take that converted file and make it ltrbx D1 for dvdsp DVD encoding"
No, you don't. You need to:
Use your 720p60 files in FCP to make a self-contained quicktime movie
Drag the self-contained QT onto the Compresor icon
Make the highest-quality MPEG2 file possible, plus AC3 audio file among the presets
Use the resultimg MPEG2 and AC3 files as assets in a 16X9 DVDSP project
The result: a standard-definition, 29.97 DVD that will be automatically letterboxed on 4x3 standard-definition TV sets.
Pretty easy, huh? It really is. I did it for the first time last week, and it worked like a charm. Actually, my 720p stuff was at 23.976 (aka 23.98), and so DVDSP made a 24p DVD (just like the Hollywood move DVDs you rent from Blockbuster), and just about any DVD player on the planet will add the pulldown necessary for a 29.97 frame rate, which is an absolute necessity.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 5:18:24 pm
Hey guys thanks for the responses : )
I actually have to ltrbx it first because the client has had issues viewing the 16x9 dvdsp projects - the place i am at also does this for anythign that is not 4x3 - everything is ltrbxed first then encoded for dvd.
I am just curious how to take the HD quicktime i made in AE and change it to SD ltrbx for proper playback - the tests i have done have looked jittery on dvd player playback so i think i might be doing something wrong in AE. _if anyone could explain the process i would really appreciate the help: ).
I will also post the question as an ew topic after doing a search.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Joey Burnham on Apr 14, 2009 at 5:25:59 pm
How long is your footage.
Here's what I would do.
Downconvert your footage. (No AJA Card?, you have an HDSR deck that can do the downconversion for you, with letterboxing. It will be a much cleaner conversion that AE will do.)
This is assuming you have an SD deck to dub to.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 5:39:28 pm
Hey Joey
thanks for the response - so i have blackmagic card available and yes i could i ntheory do the dub workflow BUT the decks are being used and so they want us to try to use AE to do this - are there specific reasons why i should not try to do this - will it always look jitter yand messed up - apparently they normally use AE to go from 1080i to SD ltrbx.
Should'nt i be able to do this normally - and is the problem based on the fact that it started as 720p60 and THEN was converted to 1080i?
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Joey Burnham on Apr 14, 2009 at 5:50:22 pm
Specific reason = AE is not a video converter.
Can it do this for you, yes, but it won't be as clean as the other route.
You can nest your 1080i 29.97 (59.94) comp into an NTSC D1 comp and scale your footage to fit, but it won't look as nice than if you use the proper tools to do this. I will get jumped on by others for saying so but I'm sticking with it.
And going from 720 to 1080 doesn't help either. You are blowing up your picture quite a bit during that process.
Best,
Joey
oh, you should be able to do this in your NLE as well if you want to try. the percentage to scale from 16x9 to letterbox is 33% on the y-axis.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 6:34:53 pm
hey Joey,
So i guess my question was more specific because i did do the nesting you mentioned in AE and but then i am not sure whether to touch any settings there or in the renderque to set it to lower fields and choose a cadence (wwsssw - or whatever).
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Dave LaRonde on Apr 14, 2009 at 6:41:10 pm
When 720P60 is shot at a film frame rate, the pulldown is already there: 3 frames, then 2 frames, them 3 frames then 2 frames, etc. In a 29.97 comp, you merely have to render in the proper field order to retain it.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Dave LaRonde on Apr 14, 2009 at 5:51:56 pm
[lisa rolley]"...BUT the decks are being used and so they want us to try to use AE to do this... Should'nt i be able to do this normally - and is the problem based on the fact that it started as 720p60 and THEN was converted to 1080i?"
Forget about the 1080 stuff. Concentrate on the 720P60 comp. Here's what you do:
Create a 4x3 DV NTSC (yes, a 720x480 DV) comp. Use the comp preset. DO NOT use the DV widescreen preset. Forget about D1. Why? Because DVD video is 720x480, and it's NOT 720x486 like D1. You might as well start properly.
Nest your 720P60 comp inside the new comp. Scale it down until it fits side-to-side and looks letterboxed. What to get fancy? Put a black solid under the nested comp.
Render the new comp in the ANIMATION CODEC (it's lossless), lower field first. Got audio? Don't forget to render it, too.
Drag the resulting file onto the Compressor icon, make the MPEG2 and AC3 files, and author a 4x3 DVD in DVDSP.
Ta Daaaa! Done.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 7:05:42 pm
Hey Dave : )
I love your responses - they look so great (bullets) and are just awesome help. Just one problem - at this point we are working off of the converted 1080i fcp project - supers had been added and its the final version in my fcp timeline - i no longer have a 720p60 comp to work with - so it started as 720p60 was convrted to 1080i for hdcam sr layoff and now that same file that was layed off and shipped out needs to go to an SD DVD.
What should i do if i dont have the ability to dub from hdcam to digi and then ingest - if i have to use AE or FCP what is the best solution to get a dvd that doesn pot playback with jitteriness - which is my problem in the first place : )
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Dave LaRonde on Apr 14, 2009 at 7:17:23 pm
Unless you have EVERY STINKIN' THING YOU NEED already in AE, you're going to have to pay a visit to FCP. I suggest rendering out your 1080i FCP timeline as a self-contained quicktime.
Will your boss let you do that at the very least, or does he/she ENJOY cutting employees off at the knees, for cryin' out loud?
Well, let's assume the boss relents and allows you to touch the FCP edit station to make the 1080 QT, so everything's duckies, bunnies and friendly little birdies again.
Use the 1080 QT in AE (interpret UPPER field first) in the same manner suggested for the 720p 60 comp. Render the DV-resolution (NOT D1, please) comp in the animation coded in LOWER field first, and follow the other steps to make the DV.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 7:50:32 pm
Hey there
This whole time i WAS talking about using the 1800i render from fcp - originally it was 720p60 like the beginning post explains but then the final piece was in fcp and had supers added by another editor and that final 1080 sequence in fcp is what was layed off to hdcam and dubbed to digi - both those tapoes went out last week and now all i have is the 1080i quicktime movie from fcp - the length is 2 mins btw
SO i just wanted exactly AE directions becuase i was not sure where / or when to make it lower fields or what not - and my big concern was that because it started at 23.976 720p60 footage and was then converted to 1080i 29.97 fps 59.94 fields there would be issues - i did a few different test in AE and each DVD i made had weird flickery on the dvd player playback to ntsc monitor - i posted again because i thought i did something wrong in AE and wanted to know the proper workflow.
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Dave LaRonde on Apr 14, 2009 at 8:09:44 pm
Ah. Field order for 1080i IS UPPER FIELD FIRST. Field order for a 720x480 DVD is LOWER FIELD FIRST.
So you interpret the 1080i footage as upper, scale it to fit as letterboxed video in the DV-resolution comp, and render the comp as lower.
Life should be good. If you play back the DVD on a computer monitor, it won't look great, but it should be fine when played on a DVD player through a normal TV set.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by lisa rolley on Apr 14, 2009 at 9:51:27 pm
Hey there
so the work flow u described is what we first did and the end result when playing back the dvd on an ntsc monitor is that it looks weird - kinda jittery.
not sure what is going on but i would love to figure out what if anything i am doing wrong here : )
Re: 720P60 23.98fps (960x720) > HD Layoff to tape 1920x1080 (59.94 fields / 29.97 fps) by Joey Burnham on Apr 10, 2009 at 9:06:35 pm
It could be so many different things! You say an NTSC monitor... You are working in hd not NTSC. Have u not been working with an external monitor? Does your timeline playback jitter as well? Could be rt settings in your nle or maybe a reference issue...
