Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries
by Paul Bertham
on
Oct 24, 2008 at 6:10:21 pm
Dear Community,
how to describe my confusion?
It´s a HD 720p Composition.
i´m trying to rotate a cameras Z-Position without rotating my video 3D-layer itself.
If i rotate the camera, my video layer behaves like if i would rotate the Z-Position of my Video Layer itself and the background of my composition becomes visible.
I thought i could rotate the camera and you just see the rotation not affecting the layer itself.
means the layer stays in place and just the camera is making the layer turn upside down. I cannot zoom into the video to make the background disappear otherwise i have a loss in image quality
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Roland R. Kahlenberg on Oct 24, 2008 at 6:48:09 pm
You're right. I'm having a problem understanding you.
Please do not say rotate z-position. These are two different things. I assume that you want to animate the z-rotation of your camera - ?
It's best to state what you see on screen before you animate anything. Is the layer full-screen? Do you or do you not want the background to be seen at the start or the end or during the animation? What do you want to achieve as the end-result of the animation. Then tell us what you are doing and what is happening.
broadcastGEMs.com - the leader in customizable royalty-free animated backdrops
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Paul Bertham on Oct 24, 2008 at 6:59:06 pm
you´re right. i was afraid that my kind of question will not reach the desired result in answers. i´m 36something hours awake and gladfully everything worked till now.
yes i have misspelled myself. the Z-Rotation of camera or Orientation.
The video-layer is fullscreen (720p Footage in a 720p Comp).
I want to rotate the layer inbetween tweo keyframes 180 degrees (upside down) without seeing the boundaries of my video layer when rotationg. again i cannot zoom inside the video layer because of quality loss.
Also i have to stay 720p.
Would be an easy job if i could use SD for further work.
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Roland R. Kahlenberg on Oct 24, 2008 at 7:36:48 pm
I don't think this is possible. Perhaps it's time to look at alternatives. Like start off with a bigger image. Or use lots of blur coupled with either scaling the image or moving the came closer if you have to stick to the current image size.
BTW, 35+ hours looking at that kind of stuff would do serious damage to one's thought processes. ;-)
Cheers
RoRK
broadcastGEMs.com - the leader in customizable royalty-free animated backdrops
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Paul Bertham on Oct 24, 2008 at 7:50:56 pm
BTW, 35+ hours looking at that kind of stuff would do serious damage to one's thought processes. ;-)
i accomplished 95% of my work in these couple of hours. but this trouble makes me really sleepless.
as you said, it seem to be impossible without (animate) scaling/zooming the image, but in this case the rotation has to be very slow - otherwise if rotation would be just a few frames fast i could have accomplish this by simply adding blur or motion blur and no one would recognize the quality loss from zooming deep into the image.
but my major question still is: why this task will not work?
im rotating the camera not the layer itself? i don´t get it...
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Roland R. Kahlenberg on Oct 24, 2008 at 7:59:36 pm
It's a 3D layer so it has to be affected by the camera movements. You can offset the camera movement using Expressions but you won't end up with your layer being upside-down which is what you want to accomplish.
Like I said, perhaps another route is required to get the image to be upside down - a slide in from the top or some other transition effect.
There is always the possibility that someone from the COW's AE Expression Forum may have a mind-numbing solution.
Good Luck
RoRK
broadcastGEMs.com - the leader in customizable royalty-free animated backdrops
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Darby Edelen on Oct 25, 2008 at 7:16:57 am
[Roland R. Kahlenberg]"There is always the possibility that someone from the COW's AE Expression Forum may have a mind-numbing solution."
I can think of a way to auto-magically scale the layer to keep it in frame, but you'd essentially be doing what you've already said you can't... and it would be more irritating to code than keyframe by hand... so that's out.
If you can't scale the layer, then you need to somehow create additional image area for the camera move. If the areas around the edges of the frame are fairly uniform you might be able to get away with using the Motion Tile or Repetile effects.
You could also scale the layer up if you can get away with any blurring to hide the reduced resolution (call it a 'stylistic choice') while performing the turn. It shouldn't take much and be sure you're using motion blur for some additional obfuscation mojo.
You could also try using a combination of the above techniques so that (hopefully) none of them stand out too much: motion tile, scaling, blurring.
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by James Owen on Feb 17, 2009 at 12:45:56 am
I have pre-composed cubes and I am trying to rotate a camera around the cubes. Every so often I get vertical lines appearing then one of the cubes has its edge to the camera. I have tried making the pre-composed compositions 4000 x 4000, changing the mode to Alpha Add , and masking the pre-composed layer with a feathered edge, as suggested here in these threads but nothing has worked. How do I get rid of these lines?
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Dave LaRonde on Oct 28, 2008 at 12:08:36 am
[Paul Bertham]"As you can see on the left "active camera" - the background shows trough.
There is just one video layer and one camera, thats all. "
Oh, look at that. You're wrong. By selecting the custom view to look at your work, you have in essence TWO cameras. One is the camera of the custom view, and the other is the actual camera used in the comp. And you want a camera to take a picture of a camera rotating. Unfortunately, you can only have ONE active camera at any point in time in AE. So you can't do what you want.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Dave LaRonde on Oct 24, 2008 at 8:14:35 pm
[Paul Bertham]"i´m trying to rotate a cameras Z-Position without rotating my video 3D-layer itself.... I thought i could rotate the camera and you just see the rotation not affecting the layer itself."
Whether you rotate the camera or rotate the layer, you get the exact same result, and you will see the edges of the layer. You'll have to scale up the layer to the point where you don't see those edges anymore.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Paul Bertham on Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33:09 am
Thank you People for responding.
I´ll find a way to accomplish this task.
My mind was to short i think, because i thought practically (real world) that if i rotate a video camera in front of a person, the person itself would not rotate along with the camera.
Means, IF after effects wold do that way my image would stay in place an the rotation would only happen in the camera so everything else would happen "behind" the comps window (gray) area and i´d be fine.
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Jason Milligan on Oct 27, 2008 at 10:03:09 pm
[Paul Bertham]"i thought practically (real world) that if i rotate a video camera in front of a person, the person itself would not rotate along with the camera. "
Correct, the person won't rotate, but when you watch the footage, it will look like the person rotated.
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Dave LaRonde on Oct 27, 2008 at 11:29:21 pm
[Paul Bertham]"...i thought practically (real world) that if i rotate a video camera in front of a person, the person itself would not rotate along with the camera..."
And how could THAT happen in the real world, pray tell?
Think about it: If you rotate a camera, EVERYTHING the camera sees rotates in the opposite direction, including people. They don't get special dispensation from the laws of physics, y'know. So a clockwise camera rotation results in everything it sees rotating in a counterclockwise direction.
What you want in AE is for your subject to always face the camera and rotate as the camera rotates. One way -- among many -- to do this is to position the subject a distance away from the camera. At the midpoint of the line between camera and subject, place a null object. Parent both subject and the camera to the null.
Now, whenever you rotate the null, the subject stays in front of the camera, and any other 3D layers in the background move.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Paul Bertham on Oct 28, 2008 at 1:39:51 am
Sorry Guys,
i´m still not really "here" due to the lack of sleep i´ve had the last days, so i did not recognized all the replies above.
ok, don´t think i´m crazy and i try to lever the laws of (camera) nature ;)
it´s not easy to describe, i´ll try again.
just besides to mention >>>
# scaling - or moving layer in 3D space = NO
# reducing 720p comp size to DV-PAL Widescreen = NO
heres an example from kindergarten.
1.) use a piece of cardboard an cut out a rectangular hole.
2.) place camera inbetween cardboard and object.
3.) rotate camera.
imagine now the cardboard is the outside area of the composition panel and the object is the layer inside the comp window.
if i rotate the camera and as the camera rotates you would still just see the obscuring comp panel area and the layer would not show the black (or whatever color set) background BECAUSE it is obscured by the (cardboard) outside area.
that´s all what i want to simulate.
if i had a another choice would have shoot it like shwon here at 1:35
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Paul Bertham on Oct 28, 2008 at 1:42:58 am
Sorry Guys,
i´m still not really "here" due to the lack of sleep i´ve had the last days, so i did not recognized all the replies above.
ok, don´t think i´m crazy and i try to lever the laws of (camera) nature ;)
it´s not easy to describe, i´ll try again.
just besides to mention >>>
# scaling - or moving layer in 3D space = NO
# reducing 720p comp size to DV-PAL Widescreen = NO
heres an example from kindergarten.
1.) use a piece of cardboard an cut out a rectangular hole.
2.) place camera inbetween cardboard and object.
3.) rotate camera.
imagine now the cardboard is the outside area of the composition panel and the object is the layer inside the comp window.
if i rotate the camera and as the camera rotates you would still just see the obscuring comp panel area and the layer would not show the black (or whatever color set) background BECAUSE it is obscured by the (cardboard) outside area.
that´s all what i want to simulate.
if i had a another choice would have shoot it like shown here from 1:35 and especially 2:00
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Dave LaRonde on Oct 28, 2008 at 5:59:48 pm
Go get some sleep. You're overthinking this.
Yeah, I know 2001: A Space Odyssey like the back of my hand. You know how they got that shot in the red-lit cockpit? Yup, they rotated the camera.
You know why the shot worked, and you couldn't see the edges of the set? BECAUSE THE EDGES OF THE SET EXTEND BEYOND THE CAMERA'S FIELD OF VIEW.
So if you want to rotate a camera in AE, and not see the edges of a rectangular layer, the layer has to extend beyond the camera's field of view.
So you have two choices:
1) Make the layer in question bigger so you don't see the edges when you rotate the camera. This means you may have to re-work the graphic at the edges (if you're using a graphic) so that you make it bigger.
2) Scale the layer up so that you don't see the edges when you rotate the camera.
Cripes, you don't even have to go 3D and use a camera. YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH THE VERY SAME THING JUST BY ROTATING THE LAYER IN 2D. And it'll still need to be bigger at the edges.
That's what you've got to do.
If you choose to ignore this advice, that's just dandy. But I know what the problem is, I just told you how to fix it, and if you need additional clarification, you need to go back to TV or Film school for a little remedial training. After this post, I'm washing my hands of it.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Paul Bertham on Oct 28, 2008 at 10:30:10 pm
Thanks Dave, i had some sleep and i hope you red the entire thread carfully and recognized what i have wrote and where my pitfalls are.
i exactly know how the shots for 2001 were accomplished and i know how the physics of a (living) moving (camera) picture work, but i believe that my mind has turned too much into never ending (promised) digital possibilities, this should be my punishment, because now i know where i stuck.
as much i know about digital manipulation I ALSO KNOW that i can make a rotation of my image without using a 3D layer and a camera.
IF i´d never knew, so, i would never have asked for a solution.
it seems that i reached the digital possibilities of camera manipulation. i hoped there is a solution with expressions and i did not hoped for a miracle...
so, wash your hands and stuck your "film or TV skool - advice" somewhere where it does not hurt so much.
Re: Rotate Camera without affecting Layer Boundaries by Adriano Ninguem on Oct 29, 2008 at 2:54:56 pm
Hi there again Paul. It got better after some examples but I still don´t seem to understand what you´re trying to achive. As I could see on the Custom Camera view there is still some background showing.
I guess if you don´t want to (or can´t) make the bounderies of the image bigger somewhere else (like in PhotoShop or wherever) you may try Motion Tile effect and mirror the edges. It will give you a little Xtra piece on that "cardboard".
Did you get where you wanted? Please share your solution so we can at least understand where you wanted to get mate.
