Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3?
by Jay Lee
on
Jun 24, 2008 at 11:10:07 pm
Hi guys,
I am sharing the frustration of many in terms of producing gamma accurate renders from AE CS3. None of the suggestions such as Color Management, Legacy etc are helping. My renders are also noticeably soft & with a dark gamma shift. I wonder if the Black Magic 10 bit codec is part of the problem here? I went to select the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec that we use in Final Cut but it is not listed in AE? Why is this? Can we not come in and out of AE via Final Cut using the same codec?
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Chris Wright on Jun 25, 2008 at 1:13:37 am
use file->project settings -color depth 32 bits/channel, working space, one of the RGB's, adobe or apple, then use a YUV codec that doesn't change color space from 4:2:2 to anything else. Some YUV's go yuv12 yuvu, etc and bits get flipped around and color lost from RGB to YUV and back again.
---10-Bit 4:2:2 codec that we use in Final Cut but it is not listed in AE?
Oh yea? go video for windows-10 bit, YUV 4:2:2 YUV
unless your strapped for size, RGB uncompressed output 4:4:4 will guarantee no generation loss.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jun 25, 2008 at 5:40:19 am
Hi Chris,
So appreciate your taking the time to respond. Thank you.
Are you suggesting that we should choose an Adobe or Apple color space over SDTV NTSC?
The files being imported into AE have an embedded profile listed as SDTV NTSC Y'CBCR but this profile is not listed in AE.
32 Bit......great tip thank you.
In regards to a codec for rendering the only YUV type option listed is Blackmagic 8 Bit (2VUY). This is a Mac machine so no Windows options or RGB 4:4:4.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Chris Wright on Jun 25, 2008 at 6:48:24 am
o ic.
Well. I only suggest RGB because it has a larger range and can do more saturated colors.
If your footage is 8-bpc, then keep working color space the same as the output color space, but I'd still recommend 32-bpc because working in 32-bpc color allows over-range colors.
The cool thing is, 32-bpc are not limited to the color boundaries of even high def footage. The over-range colors are simply a more accurate way to color correct even if you are going back to a smaller color range.
The most important thing is knowing where the final footage is going. If its for SDTV, color boundaries should be SD or you'll have illegal chroma or luma and have to use plugins to subtly soften the extremes. There's a HDTV (Rec. 709) for high def and a sRGB IEC61966-2.1 for the web, too.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Chris Wright on Jun 25, 2008 at 7:15:49 am
This kind of dilemma is showing up more and more frequently these days, and it is almost always due to type of file imported into AE. If your files are any of the following:
• Native HDV
• Mpeg2
• Mp4
• H.264
You need to convert them into something else. The compression in these files results in many frames that contain incomplete picture information, interframe IBBP. AE wants complete picture information for each and every frame,intraframe. IIIIIIIII
What you convert them to depends on your platform (mac/win).
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jun 25, 2008 at 7:28:27 am
I wish that was the case Chris but our source files are 10 Bit Uncompressed Quicktimes captured straight from Digi. The only processing they undergo before coming into AE is a reverse telecine via Compressor.
The original source is 35mm film.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Santiago Gutierrez on Jun 25, 2008 at 2:22:48 pm
Jay,
Does the computer running AE have FCP installed on it? I ask because if you captured a 10 bit Uncompressed using a Blackmagic card, it is using the Apple 10 bit Uncompressed codec. This codec is only installed with an install of FCP. So the AE machine must have that FCP install to have the correct codec loaded. In AE, when you are setting up your render que for a Quicktime output, under the Format Settings, pick Apple FCP Uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2. That should be the same as what you originally digitized. As far as the gamma goes, when I've had this problem, I check the "Match Legacy After Effects Quicktime gamma" and that fixes most of them. It's in the Project Settings. And obviously make sure you're working at the same frame size and frame speed as your original file.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jun 25, 2008 at 4:12:45 pm
Good morning Santiago,
Thank you for your reply. Yes, this machine has Final Cut Pro Installed although it was not the system we captured on. The capture system used a Kona card.
The only Apple codecs listed in AE on our machine are the Pro-Res and Intemediate. No Apple 10 Bit.
In regards to gamma shift upon render/output we have scoured the Cow and tried all permutations of the Legacy & color management theories with out improvement.
To make things more frustrating renders out of both Final Cut and Color are suffering major gamma and chroma shifts??
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Joey Burnham on Jun 25, 2008 at 6:53:11 pm
AE will pick up on whatever codecs the system has, so have you tried getting the latest blackmagic drivers and doing a re-install. AE would then see Blackmagic Uncompressed 10-Bit, which should work.
As for your recent problems out of FCP and color I have no clue. What kind of render out of FCP?
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jun 26, 2008 at 7:57:06 am
Hi Joey,
AE does see the Blackmagic codecs installed however what it doesn't see is the 10 Bit Uncompressed 4;2;2 codec that we are using in Final Cut Pro which we assume is a system codec??
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Chris Wright on Jun 25, 2008 at 7:33:36 pm
Ok, let's ignore the slight gamma loss from film to smaller codecs for now.
Ok, here's what you do to calibrate AE for Film stocks. Effects->utility-> color profile converter. Set input to project working space because that is what the color space was encoded at. Then take what AE knows and set output to Fuji or Kodak. It will lighten the image according to the Fuji or Kodak stock you used.
For future digital cinema workflow, use the ProPhoto RGB color space, encoded with a linear gamma (1.0) using 32 bits. or Film stock Kodak 5218 for cineon files if you really care about quality.
Here's a must read. pg. 10
http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/aftereffects/articles/aftereffectscs3_color_mgmt.pdf
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jul 1, 2008 at 3:06:53 am
Good evening Chris,
Thank you for writing. Shall digest and test.
In the mean time what I thought was a very simple question is STILL a mystery. Should the Uncompressed 10 Bit NTSC codec that we see and use in Final Cut be available in AE CS3??
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Chris Wright on Jul 1, 2008 at 3:45:18 am
I should clarify, I need to know what the origin of your footage was. Is your original quicktime looking fine but then rendering out dark or is it dark to begin with? Is your monitor calibrated to for a specific color group?
I don't think your color is cineon because cineon is a white washed grey color.
So, change the output in color converter to the right color output like "example. Apple RGB" (Find out what the origin of the original color management was!)
as for the codec, 10 bit 4:2:2 codecs of windows and macs are still, compression-wise, the same, just the colors aren't exact. Color manage it through workflow and keep track of what they are encoded at. Professionals leave most things at ProPhoto RGB because the colors don't change from computer to computer or windows to mac, with properly calibrated monitors.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jul 1, 2008 at 7:19:40 pm
I think the 'film' issue is clouding things some what Chris. Even though this material did originate on film it came to us via 10 Bit QT captures from Digi using a Mac System with Kona. Were are not dealing with DPX, Cineon or other linear formats.
The captured Quicktimes look great and with the SDTV NTSC profile applied in AE the displayed image on the AE time line looks reasonably close to the originals but when rendered are dark no matter what kind of profile (or no profile) is applied. Have tried all permutations of color management settings to no avail however the only 10 Bit YUV codec showing on our system is Black Magic so is this the culprit?
Why is the Apple Uncompressed 4:2:2 codec not available in AE?
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Chris Wright on Jul 1, 2008 at 8:56:21 pm
Thank you for clarifying, now I can tell you.
Yep, its the color managemnt difference of difference codecs. You need to re-capture with an exact codec that both Kona and AE have. It needs to be perfectly exact.
Re: Where is the 10-Bit 4:2:2 codec in AE CS3? by Jay Lee on Jul 2, 2008 at 5:26:34 am
Need to test further Chris but we have installed the KONA 10 Bit codecs and the initial results are very encouraging. Not only are renders from AE more accurate in regards to gamma and chroma but this codec seems to be much sharper??
