trouble with framerates
by joel musch
on
Jun 19, 2008 at 2:08:15 am
I am working with footage I shot on the DVX at NTSC 24p [with pulldown(29.97)].I feel like whenever I change the frame rate (from 29.97 to 23.976) in the composition in AE sometimes the video clip (29.97) hits the wrong frames and only shows two of the four frames. My purpose in changing the comps framerate in the first place is because when I animate the clips the animation looks like VIDEO 30fps and the footage looks 24p. Am I making sense?
So I try making the comp 23.976 but the footage, half of the time, doesnt sync right and it fires at the wrong frame. It fires the dup frame and I only see two frames. Im stumped. I dont want to render at 29.97 and then re-render it out again at 24p just so the animation matches. Suggestions? Thanks, Yall!
Re: trouble with framerates by Chris Wright on Jun 19, 2008 at 4:14:32 am
1. apply a reverse telecine to all the clips manually because it will have to be applied on each individual clip instead of in a batch if you didn't black stripe your timecode to tape first.
2. wrong pulldown in interpret, you did 24p not 24pa advanced in camera record mode and have cadence backwards 2:3:2:3 or 2:3:3:2
3. your computer is on fire and melting.
fyi.
just a friendly reminder...
When you plan a transfer to film or HD, DO NOT use 24P, use the 24PA. regular p is dumb and used for traditional video fakery look. eww.
Re: trouble with framerates by joel musch on Jun 19, 2008 at 6:15:30 am
Thanks Chris.
Got it. 24P = bad.
My only set back with that is, the clips I'm animating are exported out of FCP in a long sequence. Not individual. Should I do a reverse telecine in FCP?
As far as keeping my footage looking the best: My process so far is exporting the clips from FCP as is. Separating fields in AE(lower first), animating in 29.97, then exporting from AE at 29.97 and adding the lower field in the render queue. Is that dumb? Do I need to watch some tutorials, or does it sound like I'm on the right track?
Re: trouble with framerates by Kevin Camp on Jun 19, 2008 at 4:05:20 pm
with the hvx you should shoot to 24pN (the n is 'native' which means you will have record the 24 unique frames, no pulldown). this works well when shooting to p2 cards, but you may or may not be able to record that way to a firestore, you'd have to check... but recording only the 24 unique frames per second will simplify your workflow and save some drive space (20% smaller files).
now, since you have 24p (at 29.97 with pulldown) in fcp, you be wise to remove the pulldown prior to any editing... fcp should be able to do this, and i think it can do this at capture (or import in your case). check the manual or the fcp forum for workflow tips with 24p footage/projects.
if you work that way, everything becomes very easy... when you export clips to ae, the will be 23.976 (fcp calls it 23.98), you will work with 23.976 comps, animations will be 23.976, renders will be 23.976, importing those into fcp at 23.976 and edit in 23.976... no interlacing, no pulldown problems... easy. then, if you need to get it up to broadcast rates, you can add the pulldown to get it to 29.97.
also, if you ever needed to pull clips from the final piece (after the pulldown was added or from tape) the pulldown will be consistent and it will be a breeze to remove it and work with the progressive footage.
Re: trouble with framerates by Dave LaRonde on Jun 19, 2008 at 4:31:46 pm
[joel musch]"My only set back with that is, the clips I'm animating are exported out of FCP in a long sequence. Not individual. Should I do a reverse telecine in FCP? "
Sorry, but as an occasional DVX 100 user myself, it's pretty much back to Square One for you.
Working in film frame rates in NTSC is by NOT IN ANY WAY an intuitive, no-brainer process. It isn't tough to get the drill straight, but if you don't get it straight, you'll have troubles galore.... like you have now.
In FCP, you'll have to use Cinema Tools for the reverse telecine. If you captured you footage as one long clip, or you captured multiple takes as one clip, or you didn't set Log & Capture in & out points within an individual take, you'll even have to recapture. Remember that the tape transport on a DVX is tiny. It's a machine, and it won't always remember precisely the last time code or the last point in the pulldown pattern before you start & stop the camera or change a battery. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it can ruin your day.
Remember that when you remove pulldown, the time code changes from Drop Frame to Non-Drop Frame. So while you can use time codes in the existing footage to locate your shots for recapture, you won't be able to recapture from tape using the time codes of footage with pulldown removed. Get it right the first time.
Once you get INDIVIDUAL SHOTS captured and pulldown removed in Cinema Tools, it's time to re-edit in a new timeline: FCP's so-called 23.98 timeline. The actual frame rate is 23.976, but Apple calls it 23.98 for short. You can cut & paste music & sound efx from CD into the new timeline from the old one. They may not be in the right place, but you can cope.
Once you're done with the edit, you can then export your FCP timeline to AE and work in a 23.976 comp.
Why do you have to jump through all these hoops? Because you edited in a 29.97 FCP timeline. I can guarantee that in the editing process, the pulldown pattern got messed up. It's inevitable. Plus, if you were simply to work in a 29.97 AE comp, any motion in your animation won't match the motion in your video: it's neither the same frame rate, nor in a consistent pulldown pattern.
So get busy: if you're on a deadline, I can feel the stress mounting. Sorry, but it can't be avoided. I bet you don't make this mistake twice, and from now on, I bet you do a WHOLE lot of research before you launch off into using a new technical feature.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
