MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting
by CharlieX
on
Oct 29, 2007 at 10:58:03 pm
I'm new to DVCPRO-HD footage. Noticed a problem that's eluding me:
75% color bars, DVCPRO-HD 720/24fps from FCP as a self-contained quicktime. Import into AE. Make a sequence from the bars. Render back to DVCPRO-HD. Import into FCP. There's a gamma shift + a desaturation + a color shift of several degrees clockwise on the vectorscope! Way beyond the old gamma shift in quicktime problem.
Render as Animation codec = same problem but the desaturation and color shift are different! ARGH!
I've worked in "no color management" and "709" colorspace. 8bit, 16bit. To no avail. It almost feels like AE is reading a completely wrong colorspace on the footage and translating it... when it doesn't have to. DVCPRO-HD is 709. end of story.
Combustion and Shake both render fine in the exact same test.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by CharlieX on Oct 30, 2007 at 6:51:58 pm
New Test. Try this out yourself!
I have a 1080/8bit Uncompressed QT of 75% bars.
I import into FCP. Put into 8 bit uncompressed 1080 sequence. Bars check out against scopes.
I import into AE. Put in timeline. Bars check against Color Finesse scopes. Working space in AE = 709. Assigned profile on QT comes up as 709. output module is rendering with 709. Color Finesse scopes set to 709.
Render 8 bit 1080 QT from AE. Import into FCP. COLORS and GAMMA SHIFT.
Bring that rendered file back into AE, check against orignal bars, it IS PERFECT.
So it seems that Final Cut is completely mi-interpreting these quicktimes rendered by AE?
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Andre Farkatt on Apr 24, 2008 at 8:49:23 pm
I'm looking over foruns, threads, docs and haven't found a straight, correct answer to this...
I'm having the same problem, no matter what setting I make in AE color space, aja kona control panel (codec tab), fcp easy setups, AE render codecs (dvcprohd, uncompressed, aja, proRes) etc...
the original FCP 6 timeline with native dvcproHD footage, imported from p2hd is ALWAYS much better than any combination of settings/renders from AE using the same file as source... SEVERE color space gamma shift and color crop...
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Dave LaRonde on Apr 25, 2008 at 5:24:00 pm
I recently read a blog that may contain an answer:
"The short answer is that a simple checkbox may help you. Open Project Settings in After Effects CS3 and under Color Settings, toggle Match Legacy After Effects Quicktime Gamma Adjustments. This causes After Effects to work with QuickTime movies the same way as previous versions of After Effects. Boom. No need to set a Working Space or mess with gamma in any other way. "
Hey, it's worth a shot....
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Andre Farkatt on Apr 25, 2008 at 5:37:39 pm
No, this doesn't solve the problem... it is only a workaround for people using old (pre cs3 pre fcp6 software) and other issues concerning quicktime gamma flag for exemple.
I read the white papers from adobe concerning color management, also some blogs, and artbeats explanation of color management and color space. But, doing all that I still wasn't able to achieve in rendered AE CS3 files, the same color bandwidth comparing to the native p2hd footage direct at the fcp6 timeline...
It appears that the old rgb-yuv mess from the dark ages of AE vs. component betacam non-linear editing from the past has become alive again...
And, I repeat, NOBODY has answered me (or any of the numerous other posts here, in adobeforuns and other foruns) straightforward... Just look at the age of this post.. Its months
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Dave LaRonde on Apr 25, 2008 at 5:48:54 pm
Okay, then how 'bout this: is your version of FCP 6 fully updated? Has it EVER been updated? Have you asked about this on the Final Cut Pro Forum? Because I don't know ANYONE who's having these problems other than you with DVCPro HD.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Mark Hatch on Apr 25, 2008 at 6:01:27 pm
I'm struggling with this and we use DVCPRO HD all of the time. In fact, consider this: The problem is even worse when going back to color. Have you tried that? When we take original DVCPRO HD footage and import it into Color, it works fine. When we take it into AE and render it out DVCPRO HD, then import it into Color, it is way blown out.
See if that happens to you. It doesn't solve anything, it just gives more insight into what may be wrong.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Andre Farkatt on Apr 25, 2008 at 6:12:24 pm
I'm sorry if you were upset with my post, but only here in Cow I found more than 10 posts concerning this issue... right now one more person replyed with the same problem... and, opposed to what you said, it IS a common issue, with NO straight solution other than struggling with color management of after effects, always with result with less color bandwidth than the original p2hd footage on the fcp6 timeline... even when we apply a simple color correct at FCP6 with no chage at all, the color are slightly cropped... and with AE it is even worse.
answering your question, yes, I have the latest FCP update, latest AJA codec pack, Lates AE CS3, latest quicktime, latest osx and so on... tested both on my AJA machine and in another one with the software aja codecs, teste in uncompressed, h264, aja 2vuy, dvcproHD, animation, avid meridien, tga sequence, etc...
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Ron Craig on Apr 28, 2008 at 5:29:25 pm
Just to chime in -- not with an answer, unfortunately, but only to report that I have exactly the same problem. I have done numerous tests, been very careful with all the settings, have tried many permutations of the settings experimentally, etc. All resulting in no joy. I cannot get DVCPRO 720 material (as ProRes or not, etc.) to do a round trip from FCP to AE and back without the gamma/color shift making the product unusable. This is not just one person's isolated problem.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Gary Lieberman on Apr 30, 2008 at 3:52:24 pm
Here are the details of my workflow and the Color/Gamma Shift issue of "Round-tripping" from FCP to AE and back again using the DVCPROHD codec throughout . Let's say I'm laying out my DVCPROHD clip in FCP, sending a foreground and background clip to AE. Using Keylight to do the keying and adding addition shadows and such. Here are my steps:
FCP: Created DVCPROHD sequence and editd DVCPROHD photoshop elements to track 1 and DVCPROHD green screen shots to track 2.
Outputted a quicktime of the green screen clip (made movie self contained, otherwise AE crashed on render). Disabled track 2 and outputted a quicktime of background element.
AE: Created a DVCPROHD sequence and composited both clips using Keylight. Already, I can see the clip has shifted in color! Rendered an output using the DVCPROHD quicktime codec.
FCP: Inported composited clip in FCP and noted the Color and Gamma difference.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Miska Draskoczy on May 1, 2008 at 4:39:35 pm
Just to chime in here, I'm realizing i have the same problem as well. Just 'upgraded' to AE CS3 / FCP 6.0.3 and suddenly my workflow is broken. This really is a huge problem and makes any fcp/ae combined project difficult to impossible.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Gary Lieberman on May 2, 2008 at 3:43:35 am
Here's an update on the FCP/AE DVCPROHD Roundtrip issue. After some time on the phone with the nice folks at Adobe Tech Support, I'm asked to suspect the way Apple and Adobe interpret the DVCPROHD codec.
So, when I export a clip from FCP to AE using DVCPROHD, AE shifts the color and gamma (color bar vectors no longer hit the boxes). However, when I output a clip using the Animation Codec, AE sees it fine. I then output the composited clip from AE back to FCP using the DVCPROHD codec, and FCP sees it fine. Of course, exporting using the Animation codec takes forever, so that's not an acceptable solution.
So I asked Adobe, assuming I "pre-convert" all my footage, what HD format (codec) should I use that both Apple FCP and Adobe AE/PS can agree on? I didn't get an acceptable answer.
Can anyone suggest a workflow that doesn't involve learning Premier?
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Adam Sondej on May 5, 2008 at 9:52:37 pm
I'm experiencing this issue too.
MXF DVCPRO-HD footage with 709 Color Management settings
then rendered out as 16 bit TGA or 10 Bit Avid DNX suffers
both a colour shift and superwhite crop when compared with the original mxf footage in Avid Nitris and waveform monitor.
What is the normal AE workflow for using video footage
with superwhites which you want retained on input and in the render?
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by del chapple on May 9, 2008 at 8:06:18 pm
colorspace issue? yuv codecs have more headroom than rgb, that might explain the cropped superwhites. anyhow, i noticed a gamma shift from FCP6 ProrezHQ to AE CS3 but it was fixable by an adjustment layer and tweeking the gamma to 1.24.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Andre Farkatt on May 29, 2008 at 2:19:10 pm
Thank you all for your feedback.
Untill now, this is a no-solution situation... a real shame to adobe (and maybe apple) and AE CS3 letting it unuseful for real quality production houses.
I'll keep trying things... if ANYTHING goes better I'll post here.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Gary Lieberman on May 29, 2008 at 3:57:18 pm
Still disappointed in doing a round trip from FCP to AE and back again. Seems like it should be easy, but as all have noted, there is a gamma/color shift.
I'm hoping that someone can shed some light on this issue, so here's what I've learned:
I feel like I've isolated the problem as to the way AE interprets a file exported with the DVCPROHD codec (601 as well) from FCP.
For instance, if I have a 601 clip on the hardrive and take it into FCP and export it with current settings (on a 601 timeline), I can then import 2 clips into AE and make a comparison. The two clips are the original 601 clip and the same clip exported from FCP. You would think they would be identical and looking at them in Quicktime Pro, they look the same. However, in AE, there is a notable gamma difference, and I can find no interpretation setting or project setting that makes them look the same.
One other discovery. If I take a clip out of FCP using an Animation codec (select 'other' from the export menu), although my files are huge and it takes an impractical amount of time to export, the round trip is "matchframe" perfect, even if I export the clip from AE using a 601 or DVCPROHD codec.
In summary, a problem is introduced when exporting a clip from Final Cut using a codec and importing that clip into After Effects.
Can anyone tell me if they can repeat my experience or if they can make the round trip cleanly?
One other clue. I'm using a duel quad core mac and I suspect it may be contributing to the problem, as I get level shifts inside my renders when multiprocessing is enabled.
My desired workflow is to use a DVCPROHD timeline and edit shots on Final Cut; Export clips or a series of clips from FCP to AE; Combine Photoshop elements composed in DVCPROHD resolution (pixel size) with FCP exports and render using DVCPROHD codec; import AE compositions back to FCP and place them back on the DVCPROHD timeline. Sound straight-forward?
As an example (hoping to show that you cannot just go back to the original footage and bring it into AE), say I have 3-five second clips pulled from an existing 30 minute show and I want to do a couple of 60 frame transitions. I have marked in and out on each clip and set them up with long dissolves as a rough cut for the client to review. I now want to change the dissolves to stylized AE transitions, using a logo graphic as a transition element. Ok, all I need to do is to export the two-60 frame "subclips" for each transition, bring them into AE, create the transition and export them back to Final Cut. But alas, there are level shifts, making the workflow unusable.
Use an Animation codec, you say, when exporting from FCP, that will work. Sure, but now what if I'm editing a presentation shot in green screen and have to export all the clips. It's impractical.
Any helpful, tested (not theoretical) ideas would be greatly appreciated. To the others who have posted on this thread, I share you pain.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by carson porter on May 29, 2008 at 4:39:02 pm
Has anyone examined the QT files that were created on export from FCP before importing to AE? I seem to notice the color shift there (in QT). My theory is that QT is the culprit, not AE.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Andre Farkatt on May 29, 2008 at 5:38:56 pm
I use .xml export and automatic duck to import it to AE, so, I use the original file directly on the AE timeline, just as FCP does... so, it's not a problem with quicktime exporting... but the way AE "sees" the footage imported from P2 card
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Andre Farkatt on May 29, 2008 at 2:52:36 pm
Ron, quoting you:
have tried many permutations of the settings experimentally, etc. All resulting in no joy. I cannot get DVCPRO 720 material (as ProRes or not, etc.) to do a round trip from FCP to AE and back without the gamma/color shift making the product unusable. This is not just one person's isolated problem.
I totally agree... and your post tells exactly what happens with me.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Kris A. Wotipka on Jul 13, 2008 at 1:56:16 am
DISCLAIMER: I do not have AE. I am working on this issue for a friend of mine. I am very familiar with the whole YUV<>RGB issue. I came across this and figure I would pass it on to this group in the hopes of helping find a solution. Please do complain if it doesn't work.
In order to provide consistency between platforms, After Effects CS3 adds a metadata tag to exported QuickTime movie files that specifies what gamma adjustment to use. When this tag is present, QuickTime Player uses that value instead of what it normally would use for that codec, and the resulting adjustment is consistent between Mac OS and Windows.
The value that After Effects CS3 uses for this tag is always 2.2. This value is correct for most YUV codecs such as DV and v210. However, for RGB codecs, 2.2 is not often the correct value. This means that files that use RGB codecs (such as Animation or None) are over-corrected and look washed out or too light.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Kris A. Wotipka on Jul 13, 2008 at 2:43:52 am
Also from the FCP 6.0.2 Release notes:
"Gamma Import Option Has Been Renamed
In Final Cut Pro 6.0.2, the Imported Still/Video Gamma option in the Editing tab of the User Preferences window has been renamed Imported Still/RGB Video Gamma."
There are 4 options for this setting:
Source
1.80
2.20
2.22
Custom
Could it be that this will overwrite the gamma flag and force FCP to use the gamma of choice? This is strictly speculative that it is doing the RGB>YUV calculation and FCP is just reading the gamma wrong. If there is an encoding error, I doubt that this will have the affect desired.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Chris Wright on Jul 13, 2008 at 2:25:05 am
this has been dealt with b4, just install pro codec so that AE uses same codec to open it. It's the same thing when you can have xvid, divx, ffshow open a movie, they all can, but they all interpret the gamma differently. Then just double check that the pro codec from FCP is set HDTV color and colorspace for AE will work fine. We've confirmed it.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Gary Lieberman on Jul 13, 2008 at 6:04:03 pm
Chris Wright writes: "just install pro codec"
Anybody know what"pro codec" is? It does seem to me that AE interprets gamma incorrectly from outputted FCP DVCproHD files. My work-a-round is to export from FCP using animation codec. Somehow I tend to frequently lose a frame of video on the round trip (and I mean wrong frame rates).
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Chris Wright on Jul 13, 2008 at 7:22:23 pm
Apple has not released the DVCPRO HD codec for general QuickTime users, and especially not PC users. It's a closed-end format that can only be read by the codec included with FCP.
Adobe and Apple used to play nice, now their dvc pro hd codecs interpret gamma differently. You need to keep same codec from output of FCP to input of AE. Some choices are Mainconcept, Canopus, Cineform, and Raylight. Unless you can hack the decoder reader, you'll have to shell out some dough or rollback to an older FCP and AE.
btw. animation codec is very very buggy. If you can use something else, do it.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Gary Lieberman on Jul 13, 2008 at 11:04:07 pm
Ok, look, I think I'm just trying to do something simple and common, but it's broken. So what say we get together right here and solve this problem, once and for all, for everyone.
THE CHALLENGE: Getting DVCProHD video exported from Final Cut Pro, into After Effects, and then back into Final Cut Pro without shifting color or gamma.
THE PROBLEM: Apple and Adobe interpret Gamma differently when using the DVCProHD codec. Each use their own version of a DVCProHD codec.
SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS: Use the same 3rd party codec in both software packages (FCP and AE).
CURRENT WORKAROUND: Export from FCP using Animation Codec (found under "other"), but it's slow, buggy and the files are huge.
MY QUESTIONS: How would one implement a 3rd party solution which really works with current releases of Final Cut Pro and After Effects. Has anyone solved this problem? What are the details of a solution. Is there any test signal anyone can point to that might help us measure the solution? And finally, why isn't this problem front page news?
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Dustin Parsons on Jul 19, 2008 at 2:42:50 pm
I'm having the same problem. And it doesn't sound like there's any definitive solutions yet...
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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.3
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Christopher R. Green on Jul 22, 2008 at 7:57:18 pm
I have had a similar problem with the Quad-Core Intel (2x3Ghz) and Apple ProRes files (originally shot on Red camera and exported via Red Cine). I've been working at a company that still has a bunch of PPC machines (how last century), and the gamma shift with the new machine(s) is huge.
From the Almost Silver Lining Department:
One way to test to see if you have this problem (even if you can't compare to other machines) is to import the movie file in question into AE, make a comp for it, open that comp and toggle different bits per channel (bpc) settings by option-clicking the bpc button at the bottom of the project window. When you shift from 8 bit to 16 bit, you should see a major gamma shift if you have this problem. If you do compare with another ('safe') machine, you'll see that the 8-bit is shifted considerably from one machine to the other (check specific pixel values). When you change to 16-bit on the 'bad' machine, the values will be much closer to 'correct' (16-bit) values, but still off. Of course I am assuming the 'safe' machines have the correct values (which I believe is a safe assumption).
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Dustin Parsons on Jul 22, 2008 at 9:49:41 pm
I've found that exporting using the Animation codec from AE gives the same gamma when using DVCPRO HD as the original footage. I assume it would be the same if you used ProRes as well.
Not an ideal solution I know, but one that would give you a correct image that you could then export or compress using whatever codec you want.
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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.3
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by del chapple on Jul 23, 2008 at 6:04:16 pm
You can check and edit the gamma flag in quicktime with "Dumpster". That way you can see what AE is coding the output for decompression. If its 2.2 change it in dumpster to 1.78666(? not exactly sure of the # but if you dig around you can find it)
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Mark Hatch on Jul 23, 2008 at 8:28:44 pm
That is very interesting. I didn't even know that the Dumpster program existed. I took raw DVCPRO HD footage and imported it into both FCP and AE CS3. I then exported that footage from AE, unaffected, in the DVCPRO HD codec. I noticed that gamma flag that AE adds and it read 2.2. I then imported that footage from AE into FCP and laid it over the original. There was an obvious shift.
I then changed the gamma in dumpster several times and reimported it into FCP and laid it over the original footage. I never got it to match up very well. At this point, though, I can't remember if it is correct to apply any color management in AE. Can someone remind me what was determined for that? Do we interpret the footage differently than default in AE CS3?
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Dustin Parsons on Jul 23, 2008 at 8:47:32 pm
If you go to the Project Settings in AE you can change the Color Settings but I still haven't found a combination that works.
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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.3
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Luis Allbritton on Jul 29, 2008 at 3:32:19 pm
Chris;
The files you requested are attached to the bottom of this Google page:
http://sites.google.com/site/fcpaegammaissue/
We have been struggling with this issue as well and have kept a close eye on this thread. Our intended work flow was explained in great detail to Mac's Pro Apps support. We are still waiting on an answer that works.
Good luck and let me know if you need any other tests files.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Jeff Carson on Sep 5, 2008 at 7:24:17 pm
Same trouble here. It was fine a week ago, then I upgraded to QT 7.5 and it was broken. However, a neighboring system is nearly indentical to mine and it does not have this issue.
Dual 3Gb Mac Pro Intel 8 Core, 5GB RAM, OS 10.4.11, QT 7.5, FCP2 6.0.4, AE 8.02.27, CS3, AJA ioHDv6
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Brian Tario on Sep 16, 2008 at 11:05:06 pm
I'm considering purchasing either a Panasonic DVCPRO HD-based camera or a Sony XDCAM EX-based camera. This monumental thread has scared me about DVCPRO HD to say the least. I'm leaning toward the Sony EX1 for this and other reasons, but the long GOP codec apparently has its own problems too.
Any workflow-related comments regarding XDCAM EX footage in AE would be great. I use FCP to edit, but AE is my main app overall. I won't even consider a format that doesn't work well in AE.
Any rumors the new CS4 AE will resolve the problems described above? I certainly hope so. Thanks a lot, Brian
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Paul Wizikowski on Oct 15, 2008 at 4:39:28 am
I see this is still gone unanswered. I just realized how big the issue is tonight.
I have been working a lot with RED R3D files that have been exported through RED ALERT as PRORES422HQ files. I edit in FCP and then export as PRORES to AE. HUGE shift. This is totally unacceptable. I can't believe either side of the equation (Apple or Adobe) hasn't dealt with it yet. That shift is keeping us from effectively replacing a transfer house for final color correction.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Andre Farkatt on Oct 15, 2008 at 12:37:15 pm
Just to keep you up to date... A year have passed and I Still have not found a straight workaraoud for the colorspace/codec gamma/color shift. And now, reading the comment from the "red" user above, things gets complicated for me, as I plan to have a RED in the future...
And for you that find unbeliavable that apple/adobe/panasonic/aja/whoever doesn't take apropriate measures to fix this, please write for them, tell our cases, tell we do everything written in that "color space conversion" tech papers they publish and had no success.
Andre
RTV Producoes
(still begging for some strightforward solution, and still loving betacam workflow)
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by David Battistella on Oct 15, 2008 at 1:29:53 pm
I have an idea. Try the SHEER video codec. SHHER is known for it's very accurate color space conversion. Maybe you load up the SHEER codec and TRANSCODE to SHEER then go back and forth to and from AE.
It's worth a try.
David
Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Martin Jaeger on Oct 15, 2008 at 7:57:13 pm
Same here... Working on ProRes output from RedAlert and the roundtrip through AE results in gamma and color shifts. This problem is not limited to DVCpro-HD footage. At my wits end for a solution
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Andre Farkatt on Oct 15, 2008 at 9:07:49 pm
I work with post prduction since 1993 and I've seen this colorspace issue only two times... one when we first used digisuite uncompressed and now... ALL other worklflows including recent betacam/digi beta SD editing with FCP + finishing with AE doesn't show this issue, the quality and integrity of the whole image is pristine and the same from the camera to the final tape... and using AVID meridien (the good old hardware based avid) + back and forth to AE, I NEVER had this issue...
Using an alternate codec as suggested in another answer is not practical, since we use automatic duck and work in AE with the original footage, captured via FCP or AVID... so, if FCP or AVID doesn't capture straight in a codec that AE is able do open, it's useless for me... specially if it is a codec who doesn't have aja kona support...
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Dustin Parsons on Oct 15, 2008 at 9:20:13 pm
What codec did you capture at with the workflow that worked for you (the betacam/digibeta stuff)?
"if FCP or AVID doesn't capture straight in a codec that AE is able do open, it's useless for me.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't DVCPRO HD and ProRes codecs supported by AE?
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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.3
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Andre Farkatt on Oct 16, 2008 at 10:58:32 pm
Hi, Dustin... when using beta(component)/digibeta(SDI) I capture using AVID meridien compressed or uncompressed in a media composer mac OR using AJA Kona uncompressed (2vuy). Then after editing I export omf reference or xml to another machine running after effects and automatic duck... thus, opening the original footage captured either by the avid meridien or the FCP with AJA kona... there's no export/convert/recode in this process...
using this, nothing shifts, the same image seen from the beta/digibeta deck is seen when playing the AE rendered movie back in the avid/fcp... even when it has super white/super black information in the tape...
just replacing the capture process by the p2 import (log and transfer) at the FCP/AJA Kona all the nightmare begins when the footage goes to after and come back rendered... when looking from the fcp timeline, the p2 footage is ok... but when opened by after (again, using automatic duck to open the original footage directly in after) and rendered, the result is what we all see in this topic... gamma shift, luminance crop, superblack gone, superwhite gone... etc...
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Dustin Parsons on Oct 16, 2008 at 11:52:59 pm
Having no export/convert/recode sounds great, I've never edited that way. I'll definitely have to look into it, especially if it fixes this problem.
Thanks for the reply
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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.3
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Andre Farkatt on Oct 17, 2008 at 1:16:22 am
No, it doesn't fix... I use the exact same workflow with p2 from fcp to ae and when I play the AE rendered movie, no matter what codec (hd) I use, it does the gamma/luminance crop/washed out result...
It's not a export problem, but a colorspace interpretation and loss of usable data when getting out of the native yuv usage inside fcp... just in applying a rgb effect we also have some degradation, much less than using AE, but it's there...
let's keep talking... I dream with somebody appearing here and showing that we're all stupid and tell a simple solution ehehehehe :)
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Andre Farkatt on Oct 16, 2008 at 10:48:06 pm
Sure David, you're welcome and all help is welcome. Unfortunately I can't use anything that is not straightforward as many editors use our facility... it must be as simple and standard as it can...
I'll try some shoots with sheer, but, even if it solves my personal problem, it will not solve my free-lancers editors...
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Matthew Rundell on Oct 23, 2008 at 6:08:47 am
I hope to find a solution as well. I seem to have this problem with all Quicktimes, it seems. XDCAM, DVCPROHD, etc, etc. For some reason, CS3 just does not deal with QuickTimes that well-- it makes me do most of my important client work in Motion. I hope this issue clears soon, or maybe with CS4.
AJA IO HD uncompressed codec MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Francois Driessen on Nov 6, 2008 at 10:08:14 pm
If you have not found a solution to the problem yet, here you go:
My guess is all of you have an AJA Io or Card, right...? If I did not open a project that rendered fine prior to getting an AJA Io HD I would never have deducted this. But my suite worked fine with round-trip DVCPRO HD & FCP before getting the Io. And checked the same clip on the other suite without Io - and that worked fine too.
Spoke to one of the very helpful guys at AJA and he suggested removing a codec that installs with the A Io control panel. root/ library/ Quicktime/ AJAUncompressed
I don't need that codec. And uninstalled it. Voila! AE is working fine again with DVCPRO HD. I can live again.
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Gary Lieberman on Nov 7, 2008 at 1:28:49 am
Mathew,
Thanks for the tip. Fascinating discovery! Unfortunately, we have a Blackmagic IO. Still, you've got me thinking that I might try moving some codecs Blackmagic installed and get them out of the way. I'll start with your suggestion of checking root/library/Quicktime/ and see what I find.
Since issuing THE CHALLANGE a few month past, I've made one discovery, that is, I can't even "round trip" a clip from a sequence using the Apple Pro Res HQ 720p codec. My work-a-round has been to export from FCP using "custom" and then choosing "Animation" as the codec.
Can't wait to try your tip. Will get back to you with my results. I wonder why removing AJAUncompressed, a codec that was not in use, worked to solve the challenge.
Re: AJA IO HD uncompressed codec MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting, THE CHALLENGE! by Kevin Hedin on Nov 10, 2008 at 8:16:36 pm
Francois, thank you for that information. I did just as you said, and it did fix part of the problem. AE Now displays the correct gamma on the computer screen and the "round tripping" works correctly, however, the output from my Kona is displaying an incorrect gamma while using video preview from within AE. I looked at the control panel for the Kona and played around with the "Codec Options". I change the RGB-YUV conversion GAMMA from AUTO to REC 601 (2.20) which did solve the output to the monitor, but this is not intuitive. Working with HD Material, one would assume that the REC 709 is the proper Gamma but it did not work. Using Rec 601 is for SD but seems to display the gamma correctly for HD when using video preview in AE.
All seems fine for now, but I will report more when I test more.
The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Gary Lieberman on Nov 11, 2008 at 9:22:37 pm
Francois! You solved The Challange! I've been looking for a solution since March. Tried everything. Seems that the there once was an Aja IO installed and then it was replaced by a Blackmagick. However, the codecs were still in the folder. I removed the AJA files and viola! the my round trips from FCP to AE and back are perfect!
Thanks again.
Gary Lieberman
Editsuite.com
>Spoke to one of the very helpful guys at AJA and he suggested removing >a codec that installs with the A Io control panel. root/ library/ >Quicktime/ AJAUncompressed
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Jerry Witt on Nov 29, 2008 at 1:52:06 am
Hey Gary,
Thanks for posting this. I have been trying to solve this issue on my Mac for a week or two. Removing the Ajs IO uncompressed Quicktime component from my library worked like magic.
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Jeff Dugal on Dec 10, 2008 at 4:40:07 pm
Thanks, this solved the problem.
But, now we don't have any output via our Kona 3 because of course this codec was use by the Kona 3 to output on a video monitor!
Am I the only one having this problem ?
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Lars Fuchs on Feb 1, 2009 at 10:49:21 pm
I too have been having this shift problem (with NTSC/DV, not DVCProHD) footage not roundtripping from FCP to AE and back.
Although I have never had an AJA device, I did find two Kona Codec files in the QuickTime Library. I installed them after receiving them from a transfer house along with some film footage. I removed these: KonaUncompressedCodec.component and KonaCodec.component. Restarted FCP and AE, did the rt test, and still clips look much darker when they come back to FCP.
I'm using FCP 6.0.3 on a 15" MBP with 4GB Ram, and AE 8.0 CS3.
I tried rerendering my test clips as a sequence of still frames using PNG, recreated the movie file using Quicktime and that worked fine in FCP - no shift!
Then I re-rendered the same clip, this time as a QT file but using PNG as the codec. That worked fine too!
Now at least I have a work-around until a definitive comprehensive solution is found. Hurray.
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Lars Fuchs on Feb 1, 2009 at 11:07:27 pm
Okay. So I got ahead of myself. The PNG trick only worked for my test clip. It didn't work when I went back to rerender the project I'm working on. More to follow...
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Jen Casson on Feb 10, 2009 at 11:24:17 pm
Not sure if this was already mentioned or if this issue has been resolved. But if you import the a clip from AE that uses the animation codec (or another codec that uses the RGB color space), then select your item properties (cmd+9), change the gamma to 2.2 (right click / option click to bring up menu).
That seems to have sorted the gamma issue for me thus far.
You can also change the user settings to import RGB video / stills to use a specific gamma setting instead of whatever the source uses.
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by Scott Robert on Apr 1, 2009 at 5:00:13 pm
Cmd +9 opens the brush palette. Don't see any gamma adjustments here.
I've been trying to tackle this since this post started. I've upgraded to CS4 and the problem is STILL HERE!
Just a month or 2 ago, I fixed it by changing the the checkbox on the legacy and changing the 8 bit to 16 and back. Some where along the line, the gamma shift was fixed but it would happen during a render.
I would add to render que, start render, and the first few seconds as I watch it render, the video would change to the correct gamma and back to the gamma shift before render completes. I ended up with a video with a gamma shift halfway through. After trying several codecs and it went away. Not sure what I did to fix it back that was months ago. Now it came back unknowingly. My client just told me today that I f@&^ed their color up. The gamma shift is back! Not sure if I'll hear from them again!
Anyone fix this? I removed the AJA Uncompressed component and it didn't fix it.
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by del chapple on Apr 1, 2009 at 7:22:43 pm
Are your FCP Sequence set to "white" or "Super White"? Super white will place RGB (255) values at maximum component levels (near 800mv) leagal RGB (235) is equal to a component NLE like an avid to output 700mv (Max legal white).
Re: The solution has been found to FCP to AE roundtripping by del chapple on Apr 2, 2009 at 5:02:49 pm
I just keep thinking that we keep solving this by work arounds. my little brain keeps focusing on the gama and color atoms in qt files. it wouldnt be the first time apple makes a decision to change something and then the rest of us must deal with it..
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Jonah Walker on Oct 22, 2009 at 3:12:02 pm
I am having the same issue with DVPRO 720P HD going from After Effects to Final Cut Pro and having a gamma shift, and I do not even have the AJA Codecs installed on this machine. If I render to Animation, then the problem is not there, nut not only do I have to render, but this is a very graphics heavy show, and having all my graphics uncompressed is causing me major storage issues as well.
I am running AE CS4 and Final Cut Pro 7, and really could use a solution that worked for me, but so far have not seen anything here that has helped with the problem.
- Jonah Lee Walker
Video Editor, After Effects Artist
http://www.whaleofatale.net
Re: MAC / CS3 / DVCPRO-HD color shifting by Jonah Walker on Oct 22, 2009 at 3:16:45 pm
Just tried rendering into ProRes and I get the Gamma Shift as well, so basically looks like I have to render to Uncompressed for the video to work correctly.
- Jonah Lee Walker
Video Editor, After Effects Artist
http://www.whaleofatale.net
