Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you)
by dirkdiggler83
on
Aug 2, 2007 at 3:04:27 am
Hey,
So I know this is a "Tech" forum, and your all crazy editors + V/FX guys and gals that stay up all night working on a single frame of video... wishing that the director had just come and sought out your advice BEFORE he decided to add in that whole David Fincher camera floating through the floor + through a keyhole in a door + into the chamber of a gun ... and finally onto the actors eyeball (which obviously shows the reflection of his childhood self)
So here I am ...
I'm writing + directing + producing a new short film on 35mm in October. My dilema is that I have no money left for set design + construction ... however I do have a kickass studio for free and greenscreens. But its so difficult for me to visually plan FX shots
What I'm thinking about doing is using greenscreens to create psychological palates for my characters (see told you I was a director) Umm think Natural Born Killers ... there's always images of horses and crowds fighting on greenscreens outside of their hotel room window etc.
I have 5 bedrooms in which i would like to include this concept. + I have a candy store where I would probably have to fit the same visual concept in to make the film a whole.
What do you think ? -- Is it a ridiculous idea ? Do you have a better idea / usage ? How would you go about approaching this ? Doesn't it look retarded when you have 80% of a film that is shot normally and then a couple scenes where greenscreens are playing Perlinger Archive Footage ? -- Just remember I have no money and a studio with just a greenscreen + props + actors.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by adguy31 on Aug 2, 2007 at 3:22:41 am
Dave,
As someone who directs and post produces television commercials I can tell you that you can do A LOT with green/blue screens and a talented photoshop/AE/3D artists. Depending on how you want the horses and other stuff flying through the scene you may have to rotoscope that stuff. But almost all movies have many keyed elements in them. While you have no money for certain things now, you may want to find some money to get a good artist to help you composite your final scenes in post.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by dirkdiggler83 on Aug 2, 2007 at 3:36:29 am
Thanks Seth ... and I know your exactly right ... I keep getting passed to direct commercials because I don't have the technical know-how + the reel to land the spots. I'm not much one for promising clients a pot of gold when I'm not positive I can deliver.
So this film is suppossed to be my first real attempt into the world of effects. However I am still in the creative decision making stage -- and not the "who the hell is going to make this" stage ... so creative advice ONLY from now on. Just joking any/all comments are accepted/appreciated.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by adguy31 on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:57:44 am
What you are asking people to do is come up with something creative for you or provide you with creative ideas. As a former improv comedian with Second City I can tell you that it is REALLY difficult to be funny when somone says "hey, you do improv? Well, be funny." We can provide you with 30,000ft. ideas but we aren't working on YOUR film. You are the director and you have the vision in your mind's eye. Therefore, you have to be able to convey what is in your mind to film. If you don't know how or what to do perhaps you are being a little too ambitious. Maybe you should start smaill and leave the VFX out until you have a firm grasp of what you CAN do with the budget with which you have to work. There is nothing wrong with that!
There are many TV spots, movies and music videos that don't use VFX. They base their spots on a little thing called... a story. Tell your story first and if it is really necessary (not just cool) to have the VFX then figure out what you want, go to a local college or something and find a good photoshop, AE or 3D artist to help. I can PROMISE you that you will find someone who can help to make your vision a reality and they would love to trade their skills, creativity and knowledge for the chance to work on a project. It just may not happen in a timely manner but it will happen.
$.02 more.
Seth
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Thomas A. Edison
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by Darby Edelen on Aug 2, 2007 at 4:41:03 am
[dirkdiggler83]"I have 5 bedrooms in which i would like to include this concept. + I have a candy store where I would probably have to fit the same visual concept in to make the film a whole."
I'd like to help give some advice, but I'm not sure I understand the concept entirely.
Are you saying that you already have footage of 5 bedrooms and a candy store in which you'd like to place your actors? What else do you want to do with those spaces?
It's hard to know what kind of creative advice to give without knowing more about the characters and the goal of the scenes you have left to shoot. Where will these shots fit into the finished project?
Darby Edelen DVD Menu Artist Left Coast Digital Aptos, CA
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by dirkdiggler83 on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:35:12 am
I just didn't want to blabber on if nobody was gonna respond to the thread about the film.
It's a modern day adaptation of Hansel and Gretel ... only hansel and gretel are in their mid-thirties, the parents are sick of them, so they leave them in the 'big city' hoping that they will find work ... so insues the job hunt + finding a job at a candy store ... being taken advantage of by the employer (witch) economically, sexually, mentally ... and so on and so on ...
And I have a total of 5 different bedrooms in the story (these are my only Interior Locations that I will be shooting in studio) ... but now I just need some creative concept to tie them all together.
So the thing is that I have very little resources ... to physically create the sets ... and I'm having a difficult time trying to come up with something I can do with Greenscreen ... Like I'd rather not just use a blank canvas that is a bedroom wall ... I figure since I have to set up the greenscreen anyways I might as well get creative with it ... and that is where I could use some suggestions ...
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by beenyweenies on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:41:33 am
Cool idea. Just as a thought, another angle you might consider is investing in some 3d-based motion tracking software. This will analyze the shots and export a 3d camera that can be used in After Effects, Maya etc. for adding in effects to your shots.
Using this and some basic After Effects work, you could have wallpaper that is very slowly and subtly melting or moving (think Fear and Loathing), or a million other things that would add visual coolness to your rooms. This would be quite easily if you have reasonably skilled AE guys/gals at your disposal.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by dirkdiggler83 on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:51:49 am
Sorry guy I didn't see the post about the melting wallpaper idea. Thats kind of exactly what I'm going for ... only ... what happens when I cut from a W.S to a C.U ? Does the image on wall just become distorted or for lack of a better word unviewable because I have changed perspective ? If that's the case I'm worried that it might be jarring + irritating to the audience.
Then my next concern is should I isolate the greenscreen to a specific area of the frame (meaning should I have half of the wall appear to be normal wallpaper) would that give a sort of perspective to keep your equilibrium when watching it?
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by beenyweenies on Aug 2, 2007 at 4:37:26 pm
When you do the camera matching you can account for changes in lenses, focal length etc. on a per-shot basis. That way any post effects that use this little 3d camera will always match the shots. If you used this to do some sort of wallpaper effect, it would change in each shot to properly match in.
By the way, you do not have to use greenscreen on the walls to do camera tracking. It is commonly done when shooting in normal environments, such as a set. You will only need to do greenscreen walls if you plan to completely replace them with something the actors can move in front of.
If you'd like to learn more about camera tracking, here's some good resources:
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by Darby Edelen on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:34:31 pm
[beenyweenies]"When you do the camera matching you can account for changes in lenses, focal length etc. on a per-shot basis."
This is one thing I was going to mention. It will be important to keep a detailed log of your shots if you want to match the camera properly, this includes the height of the camera from the floor and the tilt of the camera as well as lens information.
For this reason I would recommend limiting yourself in number of shots on the greenscreen to just the basics: establishing shot and close ups. Keep your camera locked down or, if you're adventurous, limit yourself to very basic tracks and pans.
You also need to think about the environment in which the actors/props will be composited, things like: where is the light source? As far as I'm concerned, the more physical props you can include in the green screen shoot the better. This can provide for more challenging keys, but will give your talent something to interact with. In the final product it will sell it that much better if the talent sits down in a chair during the shot.
The other thing that could help is distracting your audience... Do something crazy, have your actor sitting there pretending to listen to their mother rant about how irresponsible they are, meanwhile in the background the actor is imagining an epic (or not) war, bombs, explosions whatever. The fact that the shot is a composite should give you some freedom to explore these options, and in the end they will simultaneously confirm to the audience that it is a composite and distract them from caring that it's a composite.
Darby Edelen DVD Menu Artist Left Coast Digital Aptos, CA
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by beenyweenies on Aug 2, 2007 at 9:21:52 pm
Agreed. And as one last note from me on the subject, pans are not easy to camera track, most tracking software needs actual translation (aka physical movement in space) of the camera to interpret the movement.
All of this may add up to a lot of technical craziness to keep track of, but the alternative might be having to use less impressive, potentially cheesy tactics. If you want to explore computer enhanced cinematography, be prepared to get technical!
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by beenyweenies on Aug 2, 2007 at 4:49:01 pm
Here's another idea you might consider - Since it is loosely based on a children's story, and you need sets that essentially don't exist, maybe you could use the camera tracking technique mentioned above to create 3d bedrooms/sets that have more of a Tim Burton, almost other-worldly feel. If you have access to a few decent 3D artists (if your story is good and you shoot it well, you can find some who will help for credits I'm sure) they could create your sets to look fairly realistic in 3d, but very strange and interesting.
If you go the route of using greenscreen and replacing the set in post, make sure to have as many real-world objects, set dressing etc as possible for your actors to interact with where needed. This also draws some attention away from your otherwise CG sets.
Pan's Labrinth is a good example of a movie that used CG in interesting, subtle and very effective ways, primarily as set extensions (or replacing greenscreen with artificial sets).
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by beenyweenies on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:36:38 am
A good place to start might be doing some "proof of concept" work. This is commonly done in commercial/film work before committing to very expensive processes.
Since you are shooting 35, you really can't afford to experiment on set and screw around trying new things. To avoid this, shoot some scenes on DV using any non-actor you have around, and ideally on the same set since it sounds like you have easy access. If you don't have access to those sets yet, mock up a sloppy set for the sake of experimentation. Key them out using FCP or AE depending on what you have immediate access to, and start playing. This will give you an opportunity to visualize out your ideas, but also discover any problems, pitfalls or downright cheesy ideas.
The final product of your tests can serve as a video storyboard (or just to illustrate concept) for your crew and post people, which will also save you a lot of time and money trying to explain things to everyone.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by adguy31 on Aug 2, 2007 at 5:59:12 am
What you are asking people to do is come up with something creative for you or provide you with creative ideas. As a former improv comedian with Second City I can tell you that it is REALLY difficult to be funny when somone says "hey, you do improv? Well, be funny." We can provide you with 30,000ft. ideas but we aren't working on YOUR film. You are the director and you have the vision in your mind's eye. Therefore, you have to be able to convey what is in your mind to film. If you don't know how or what to do perhaps you are being a little too ambitious. Maybe you should start smaill and leave the VFX out until you have a firm grasp of what you CAN do with the budget with which you have to work. There is nothing wrong with that!
There are many TV spots, movies and music videos that don't use VFX. They base their spots on a little thing called... a story. Tell your story first and if it is really necessary (not just cool) to have the VFX then figure out what you want, go to a local college or something and find a good photoshop, AE or 3D artist to help. I can PROMISE you that you will find someone who can help to make your vision a reality and they would love to trade their skills, creativity and knowledge for the chance to work on a project. It just may not happen in a timely manner but it will happen.
$.02 more.
Seth
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Thomas A. Edison
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by Steve Roberts on Aug 2, 2007 at 1:30:35 pm
Seth is right.
It's a bad idea to come to VFX artists for creative. Come to us for execution, not creative.
The question should be: "I *know* I want to have horses fighting in the window because it will show inner conflict in the characters' minds. I have greenscreens available. How should I shoot this to make it easy to composite in AE?"
Sorry to say mate, but if you don't know what you want creatively, your film is sunk. Only include the ideas that are yours, you believe in, and you can justify as a director.
If you're not sure something's a good idea, don't do it. Only execute the ideas you believe in from the get-go.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by Dave LaRonde on Aug 2, 2007 at 3:35:53 pm
My very basic advice: grab a pencil and start drawing.
Make storyboards. Get specific. Does a character walk in front of a window with a blue-screen background? Indicate it. Does the camera move in any way? Indicate it. Will there be flimsy, filmy curtains on a window with a blue-screen background? Indicate it. You need to prepare a storyboard for a scene involving effects as if you're ALREADY CUTTING the footage.
Oh, you may say, "Well, that's not how I work, I rely on the inspiration of the moment for some of my best work." Well, that's all fine and good if you're merely acquiring images. But you're PLANNING EFFECTS. And this is the first time you've had to deal with them. So you really do need to start from Square One.
When you have storyboards in hand, you can then take them to the effects people. They can then indicate the perils and pitfalls you face. Through such dialogue, you will arrive at a plan for the scene that doesn't betray your vision, yet won't break the bank.
And have your effects person on-set as you shoot. That way, you may still be able to indulge your inspiration of the moment. Or not. But at least you'll walk away from the shoot knowing you have something that will work.
Re: Direct a Director (me) with your Expert Knowledge (you) by Mister Cat on Aug 2, 2007 at 6:29:34 pm
Wasn't Natural Born Killers shot with a lot of projected scenes behind the actors? Maybe you should skip the GS altogether. Put together your montages beforehand and project them during filming. I don't know if a white sheet would work for rear projection, but if so, you could even have the sheet waving a little for added effect, or something of the sort.
