AE7 thoughts
by eric rosner
on
Feb 2, 2006 at 4:51:03 pm
I was wondering if there were any general, early reports on AE7....yeah?, nay? or el stinko...thanks for any information. I have heard glowing comments from people being paid by Adobe to say positive things but reading comments here.....seems like the hand has greased the palm....hmmm imagine that...
Re: AE7 thoughts by Mylenium on Feb 2, 2006 at 5:39:04 pm
[eric rosner]"I was wondering if there were any general, early reports on AE7....yeah?, nay? or el stinko...thanks for any information. I have heard glowing comments from people being paid by Adobe to say positive things but reading comments here.....seems like the hand has greased the palm....hmmm imagine that..."
That is an completely unfair comment. Neither of the people involved has been paid by Adobe to say positive things and if you take the time to read my review, it indeed openly criticises some shortcomings and tries to view other things as neutral as possibly can be done. I'll easily admit that it's not easy containing ones excitement when being able to review a program before other users and it may lead to some false euphoria, but please don't insult anyone for being human.
That aside, you shouldn't let your own frustration blind you. Like I also said in my review, the new options and tools offer a sound foundation, but their implementation is anything but complete. I can agree that it is disappointing to still have to use Color Finesse for CC when AE itself offers 32 bpc already, but it shouldn't stop you from doing your work.
I also feel that people still have many misconceptions about AE 7. Yes, there's now a proper graph editor, but did they say anywhere that temporal and spacial interpolation are linked? No! Yes, there's now support for better OpenGL, but did they say that buying a better grphics card will accelerate the hell out of AE? No! I could go on quite a bit more, but it all comes down to the fact that although AE hasn't changed that much on the surface, alot is going on under the hood that will only take off maybe in the next release.
Lastly I have to say, that people perhaps should be more realistic. Even the best programming team can only do so much work in any given time frame. It's easy to request features, but it's much more complicated to implement them in a stable and coherent app and workflow respectively. If Adobe always gave in to users demands without thinking about long-term effects, we'd have an AE that could do everything, but nothing right and trust me, you wouldn't use such an app even if it was free. In that light it is naive of people to think they can include completely different code and tools from a company they just acquired half a year ago or on the other hand expect AE to turn into a completely node based app.
Re: AE7 thoughts by Barend Onneweer on Feb 2, 2006 at 7:02:03 pm
[eric rosner]"I have heard glowing comments from people being paid by Adobe to say positive things but reading comments here.."
I'm just going to assume you don't mean any of the COW leaders by that, because that would be a pretty serious insult.
Have you actually worked with 7.0 for a couple of weeks now? If not, I'd recommend you keep your opinion on this release to yourself.
Sure, 7.0 isn't heaven, but for me it's proven more productive, faster and more stable than 6.5. If you want Shake, buy Shake. If you want Nuke, buy Nuke. If you want to crash all the time, buy Combustion. Try judging AE for what it is. The most versatile animation/compositing application out there, at a seriously decent price. There's no app out there that lets me switch from film compositing at 2k, to creating motiongraphics in a heartbeat.
Re: AE7 thoughts by editing-Jos on Feb 2, 2006 at 7:59:53 pm
I dont even consider AE as full postproduction/filmproduction.
Because it basic tools like CC arent good enough!
AE is king in Motion Graphics. Nothing comes close imo!
Not even Motion with its 323milion presets.
Adobe did an OK job but they should have called it 6.8 instead of 7.0.
Cause beneath the new GUI isnt there much new stuff. And some old stuff like the Graph editor isnt fixed like it should be. Which imo is the basic of making good animations, specially in 3D.
just my 2 cents
Re: AE7 thoughts by Barend Onneweer on Feb 2, 2006 at 9:20:32 pm
[editing-Jos]"I dont even consider AE as full postproduction/filmproduction."
Well, I do.
And with me there's ILM, The Orphanage, and many other studios that use AE occasionally or even as their workhorse. Did you know that After Effects is the main compositing tool used at The Orphanage?
Re: AE7 thoughts by eric rosner on Feb 2, 2006 at 9:35:23 pm
Start reading some of the ae7 gripes on the board already....yikes
...first off, going back in time...ae 6...didn't work, period...Adobe really screwed us over (at least on osx)...crash after crash. with BS error codes that maybe the boys at Adobe found humorous but I certainly didn't' (ie CRASH ON A MAGIC SPELL...did you ever get this one...total BS)...and I don't care if they blamed Apple...if you know your product doesn't work, then don't release it....ae 6.5..ok, it worked..yeah imagine that....now ae 7...the graph editor is nice.. sure the interface is ok...but...that is it? Give us something Adobe...who cares about Adobe bridge... and here come the errors...
Believe me I want to love ADOBE, I owe them my career...it is just I hate to hate them...Adobe should be blowing away the competition...they SHOULD be releasing an AE that competes with Shake or Nuke or Combustion....BLOW US AWAY!!!....And for christmas sake, just realize that Apple is a company too...they are in business to make money...
I love the fact that a few years ago,,,Adobe is saying BS about Apple and focusing on PC...so Apple says FU and starts coming out with their own software...now Adobe cries all and bad mouths Apple...unbelievable BS.....
Whatever...Apple now has all the cards...fast processor, amazing os....momentum, money, steve jobs....so Adobe, swallow and develop, cause new kids on the block are coming.
Re: AE7 thoughts by editing-Jos on Feb 3, 2006 at 4:53:28 am
They are not focusing on PC.
But full universal binary for the intelmacs will be released in 2007 maybe later.
Adobe doesnt feel like 'recoding' all the soft now. They will do it in the new cycle of 18-24 months. To bad for mac users!
Re: AE7 thoughts by Mylenium on Feb 3, 2006 at 7:32:08 am
[editing-Jos]"They are not focusing on PC.
But full universal binary for the intelmacs will be released in 2007 maybe later.
Adobe doesnt feel like 'recoding' all the soft now. They will do it in the new cycle of 18-24 months. To bad for mac users!"
Huh? Most Macs out there are still PowerPC, especially the powerful ones (Quad G5). Really, you Mac fanboys should see things more realisticly. Unless Apple completely switch over to Intel only (which might not happen for the next 2 years because they still have valid contracts with IBM), there is no pressing need to convert all apps to Intel or UB. Unless I have a complete incorrect view of the Mac world and you all are doing all your work on MacBooks and Intel iMacs already, that is.
Re: AE7 thoughts by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 3, 2006 at 3:38:07 pm
Eric,
First off: I just got back into the office this morning after being gone for a day to spend some time with my father. If I had seen this when it first went up yesterday, I'd have given you about 30 seconds to apologize to the leaders and others you have insulted or you could just get out of the Cow and stay gone... Capeesh?
You are quite entitled to your opinion but the only one getting paid around here is the Cow itself -- to run banners. We do NOT tell our leaders or members what to say and as Mylenium points out in his reply to you, there are a number of points in his review that address what he doesn't like in AE7. Still, all-in-all he gave the package high marks -- as have pretty much all the people we know who have had a chance to work with it for some time.
We didn't write the review, he did. We didn't tell him what to think nor did Adobe. To be quite honest about it, the ONLY area of the review where Adobe asked Mylenium to reconsider his point of view was in the animations pre-sets -- something which Mylenium sees little value in but many other users will see value in. His other criticisms, they merely took notes on and I am sure added to the list of things to consider for future revisions.
We don't have paid writers, per se, on staff in the Cow. We prefer to have articles and reviews that are written by actual working artists and content creators who write from a real-world perspective of using these tools in the trenches -- not have professional journalists who crank out articles about tools they never use in the real world.
Many of our leaders get to participate in the beta programs and so by the time these tools are released, they have quite an understanding of them and where the real strengths lay. Because they understand things at a level that you may have missed with a cursory glance, does not make them morons. And just because people do not agree with your point of view does not make them corporate shills trying to con you into upgrading so they can make a few bucks -- which is EXACTLY what you have implied and which if I do not get an apology out of you today WILL be the reason that you are banned irrevocably from the Cow.
My personal opinion is that the new interface and integration is adding a LOT of power to the Adobe apps that place it to where it rivals much of the functionality found in high-end suites like those from Discreet -- that's an opinion that I share with Scott Billups, a man whose film credits include work with Francis Ford Coppola and Steven Spielberg. I get advertising from Adobe, Scott doesn't. You can accuse me all you like that my opinion is up for sale, I can live with that -- I've been doing this for 11 years and learned long ago that people will think whatsoever they will. My friends and the people I care about know who and what I am and I am content with that. You do not know me nor do I care much about your opinion from what I have seen of your behavior.
You have a few hours, Eric, and then I am going to hit the "jettison this jerk" button if you haven't apologized to those whose character you have maligned and whom you have insulted.
Re: AE7 thoughts by eric rosner on Feb 3, 2006 at 5:33:46 pm
Are you nuts? ...when I said some people were getting paid by Adobe...I, in no way meant the CC forum leaders..if they took it that way then that is their issue (talk about egos) ...secondly, if I can't voice MY comments about issues I have encountered by using this software, then by all means kick me off...because I THOUGHT this was an open forum...if some people don't like what I am saying, respond with an open dialogue in a civilized manner..but if they go crying to you saying "someone is saying things I don't like." well, then it is not much of a forum...I am not cursing or yelling at anyone, and who did I insult?? I am just commenting on my problems and my work experience..who did I insult?? Yeah, I had some problems..that is the topic so if THAT is too hot an issue then, so long and thanks for the fish..
Re: AE7 thoughts by Steve Roberts on Feb 3, 2006 at 6:49:35 pm
Actually, the COW isn't an open forum. It's a place where people describe their technical problems and others volunteer their time to help them solve those problems. Occasionally there are announcements, reviews and design issues, but these are all meant to improve the working environment. There are also a few blips of noise when a new release comes out, but these generally peter out after a short while.
If the COW weren't structured as it is, it would have a much lower signal-to-noise ratio, and fewer problems would get solved amid a sea of rants, bitchings and shout-outs that eventually threaten to engulf many open forums.
The issue is not your opinion of AE7, but this reference: "I have heard glowing comments from people being paid by Adobe to say positive things but reading comments here.....seems like the hand has greased the palm....hmmm imagine that..." implying bribery to anyone who knows the metaphor. You were referring to positive descriptions of AE7 that you've read here at the COW, and many of those descriptions were written by COW leaders. The connection to offence is not very hard to make. Now, if I were in your position, I'd think "I've just offended a lot of people whom I respect, since I come to the COW because I value the leaders' opinions, not because I like to read my own rants. It was not my intent to offend any of the COW leaders, but I hate offending people I respect, even if the offence was unintentional. I'd better apologize".
It takes a big man to apologize. You have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.
(And you wouldn't copy and paste the statement in quotes, because that would be lame.)
Re: AE7 thoughts by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 3, 2006 at 6:55:55 pm
[eric rosner]"Are you nuts?"
No, just irritated that someone would use so little supporting evidence, cast aspersions, do it without clarifying who you were talking about and then feigning chagrin that people are offended by your remarks. Own your own words, Eric, and spare me the self-righteous chagrin.
[eric rosner]"When I said some people were getting paid by Adobe... I, in no way meant the CC forum leaders..if they took it that way then that is their issue (talk about egos) ..."
The only ones getting paid by Adobe around here, is the site itself and we didn't write any of the reviews, Eric. We aren't producing the content but go to real working artists, not paid journalists, to get it. Neither we nor Adobe tell our leaders what to write about. Personally, if we did it that way, the content would be far too restrictive for my tastes.
So, if you were not insulting the forum leaders, that leaves only the Cow itself. (After all, you were speaking here -- and if you wish to say you weren't referring to the Cow, then why not post wherever these questionable comments were made?) We do not have an official policy that we force onto our leaders and writers regarding reviews, etc., so we have little control. To be honest, we prefer it that way -- this, as we get far more input and fresh ideas than repeating our opinions.
Like you, I am free to my opinion just as you are to yours. What you are NOT free to do here in the Cow is act like a high school kid whose ego is unrestrained and unfettered by any semblance of respect for others -- so much so, that your first words seem to be things like "Are you nuts" and the like...
If you cannot listen to nor respect the ideas or input of others, and wish to have your say in a manner wherein you disparage the character of others and insult them like a teenager with a bad attitude, then perhaps you really do need to remove the Cow from your list of places to visit. This site is about community and free speech has never been given a near-religious mantle here -- at least not when it's used as little more than an excuse for flaming people and questioning their character and painting them as juvenile ego maniacs (this, when it's pretty clear who is being juvenile here).
Bye, Eric. We will remove you from our various files, etc.
Re: AE7 thoughts by Mylenium on Feb 3, 2006 at 7:09:22 pm
While you did make no personal insults, you made unfounded assumptions that are hardly bearable. The general gist I get from your statement is: Anybody who's even trying to see something good in AE7, is a fool and must have been paid to do so because in your world AE7 is a heap of horse droppings. In some ways this gives you an ugly face like the ones that some of your caricatures/ illustrations show (which have an interesting style, but are in an odd way disturbing).
My problem is not that you try to devalue the efforts of a single person, but of an entire group of people without giving any constructive criticism. You know, I'm known to be cynical, rude and impolite at times and I just love bashing software, but I feel I at least always provide an explanation as to why I do so and I can get across my message. You failed in doing so and thus can only be filed in a category commonly known as "trolls" these days. You have succesfully destroyed all your reputation and credibility with this one stupid post. Even if you are allowed to stay on this forum, you shouldn't expect too much help anymore from the people at which your post was directed. It's your own loss.
Just for the record: Many of the people you tried to mock are definitely better and more experienced AE users than you, myself and most likely a few other people as well and have tried to further development of AE on levels you can't even begin to understand. I found working with them very enlighting and is has opened up my very limited view of the AE world and if nothing else, I'm thankful for having had a chance to get them to know. Perhaps you might try it some time...
Re: AE7 thoughts by Barend Onneweer on Feb 3, 2006 at 7:10:13 pm
[eric rosner]"issues I have encountered by using this software"
I'd be more than happy to discuss issues you have encountered USING the software. But your posts lately have been mostly trolls and flames like this one, and nothing about concrete issues you've run into.
[Ron Lindeboom]"We do NOT tell our leaders or members what to say"
Amen to that. As a matter of fact, many of the COW's leaders would be quick to point out that we prefer to do our own reviews completely independent of the COW so that we are more forthcoming with the other pros that use our reviews. To say that we're not autonomous is wrong. To say that we are paid, directed or spoon-fed quotes for our reviews is both misguided and misleading. Even if your implication wasn't directed at the COW's leaders or users specifically, it's still a blatant slap across the eyes to all professionals. These tools are our livelihood and we respect them as they are, for better or worse, although I heartily say that Adobe has rarely missteps with respect to advancing its creative software applications. Like Ron and the others who have taken the time to address your post, I'm outraged and feel abused.
Michael Munkittrick
Managing Creative Director Evolve Media Solutions
