Re: Has Adobe lost their minds???? by Mylenium on Jan 17, 2006 at 6:26:41 am
What are you saying? As far as I recall the old Standard version of the Video Collecton also did not contain Encore and Audition, only the Professional version did. So what's your point?
Re: Has Adobe lost their minds???? by Barend Onneweer on Jan 17, 2006 at 6:56:25 am
Hmmmm...
Well, even more reason for people to invest in the Premium Suite. I agree that it's kind of a bummer for some people, though. But for most situations it's worth the extra expense for After Effects Pro alone.
Re: Has Adobe lost their minds???? by Ron Lindeboom on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:03:10 am
I guess that I suffer from the relativity of having bought into After Effects back when it was 1.2, if I remember correctly. Cost me $2,400 and came with no plug-ins hardly at all. You had to buy Effects Pack 1 and Effects Pack 2 for about $1,300 to get keying and some basic effects -- extremely basic when compared to what we all use today.
When I look at all that you get today for the price Adobe's charging, I am amazed at the value of what we get when considered as a features-to-cost curve.
Ron, do the math! by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:18:05 am
I have Premiere Pro 1.5, Encore DVD 1.5, Audition 1.5, AE standard 6.5 (the old video collection). You with me?
The upgrade to the new video collection is $500... but I already have Photoshop CS2. So all I get for my $500 is Premiere Pro 2 and AE7. Which makes no sense because I can upgrade seperately for PPro2 and AE7 for $199 apiece ($398). But after spending that $398 for PPro 2 and AE7 upgrades that leaves me needing to then upgrade Audtion 2 for $129 and Encore DVD 2 for $149 to take the upgrade path to ($666). I wonder if someone planned the math to hit a demonic number.
So I'm left with no video collection standard to video collection standard upgrade path to simply get to version 2 apps. The last collection upgrade was $250 total.
I hardly see the logic in all this. I mean who the heck is a professional and doesn't already own Photoshop. And why remove DVD authoring in a video collection / bundle???
and I should add... by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:31:15 am
...and to further clarify. The reason that is my only path (the $666 to upgrade seperately), is because I already own Photoshop CS2, Illustrator CS2 and Flash 8 Pro... so to upgrade my current video collection standard up to the new "premium" version is a whopping $800 and I already have the other apps.
So it really leaves me (and I'm sure many others) with no upgrade path except the $666 fee for upgrading each independently (which I'm assuming I'll be allowed to do).
This is in stark contrast to being able to buy 'either' Apple Motion 2 or Soundtrack Pro right now for $299, then upgrade to the new full Final Cut Pro Studio "universal" for only $199 in February. Thus getting Final Cut Studio for only $498.
Adobe just made this choice real easy for me to go back to FCP.
Re: and I should add... by Ron Lindeboom on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:48:33 am
Trust me, I have already had to sort through the bundle upgrades as I own the Macromedia suite and many Adobe titles.
But my point was that, for me, this stuff is so much cheaper than it used to be that I can get all of this power for 1/3rd what I used to pay for a 9gig Micropolis 1991 harddrive.
You think it's insane and that is your prerogative. Me, I think it's cheap and that is my prerogative.
Inflation by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 9:24:27 am
Ron,
I see your point. Yes, things have gotten much cheaper. Which is why it is so hard to swallow an upgrade that is a factor of roughly two and one half times what it was the last time around (video collection upgrade path). That's some outstanding inflation I've not seen in any other software company's policy.
I've spent over $20,000 on software in the last two years. I don't expect stuff to be really cheap, but where is the customer appreciation? Where is the flexibility?
Re: Inflation by Ron Lindeboom on Jan 17, 2006 at 9:31:30 am
Mike,
Kathlyn and I could have bought a house with what we spent on this stuff over the years. So when people are offering TONS of power at a pittance of a price (in our opinion), it is hardly the earth-shattering event it seems to elicit from you.
It's not that big a deal, really. Your mileage may vary.
No sweat by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 9:57:40 am
Ron,
I won't be littering the forums with this anymore. The news came out tonight. I watched the flash demos at adobe and was interested enough to go place my order. Then I couldn't find an upgrade path for the apps I first bought a few years ago (version 1.0, then upgrade to 1.5).
Then I did the math and realized just to get my applications from 1.5 to 2.0 it'll be $666 (for a dot release for goodness sake). So I'll pass on the upgrades and I'll now shut my trap about Adobe.
Re: Inflation by Ron Lindeboom on Jan 17, 2006 at 10:02:36 am
I am not telling you to shut up. I am merely saying that your's is not the only point of view. I understand your frustration and from talking with Steve Kilisky tonight, I know that he understands it as well.
Pollution by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 10:30:50 am
Ron,
LOL... I knew you were not telling me to shut up and I do understand the whole "mileage will vary". For some who don't already own the standard video collection, these bundles hold tremendous value. I just had to air it out once I realized they removed the typical standard upgrade path.
It really is more than an opinion. I was looking willing to spend the same $250 I did before to upgrade, but I don't see enough compelling new features to warrant a $666 upgrade path. To each his/her own.
personally I thought adobe was insane when they offered an upgrade from AE 6 to 6.5 for only $99 (that was the original price in the first month or so). How does a comaopny make any money doing that?
Having worked for several software companies, I recognize that a lot of work goes into the development of a product, and it costs time and money to do that. Adobe has made some huge leaps forward with this release, and for what their charging for an upgrade on several products at once is a pretty good price, even if it's more than the last time around (which I thought was also insanely cheap).
I have several computers to upgrade, and I never look forward to paying for an upgrade, but I recognize that it's a good price, and more importantly, worth the money.
Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.
Aharon
----------------------------------------
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
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Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ www.pIllusionFusion.com
let me just be clear here. While I always want more from software, I think Adobe has done an incredible job. On so many levels, they have listened to their customers' needs. And while they couldn't address everything people wanted, they've given us a very power package.
I hate paying money for anything, but I don't feel nearly as bad about this upgrade as I do for other companies that make MINOR imporvements and charge you an arm and a leg. And you have to buy those just to be able to exchange files.
Yeah, it would be great if adobe only charged us a few bucks for the upgrade, but being realistic, it's a good proce for an upgrade on not one but 4 (or more, depending) great products! And the changes the've made are not minor. There are several new features comperable to plugins that each cost almost as much as the upgrade price for the entire Production Studio package!
I'll tell you what i tell my students when they ask why they should need to buy things like big hard drives - professional multimedia is not for people not willing to spend money - You can make a lot of money at it, and if you feel it's not worth the money then don't do it. That said, while adobe isn;t giving it away, this is a fair price for some good software.
----------------------------------------
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
----------------------------------------
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ www.pIllusionFusion.com
Re: Ron, do the math! by Aharon Rabinowitz on Jan 17, 2006 at 3:22:31 pm
I don't have Photoshop CS2 or Illustrator CS2. I was holding out for a video package I hoped would have both (and I was right). Since as a video artist, both older versions of the software (CS) do what I need, I figured that when the Video Collection (now the Production Studio) came out, it would have what I needed. If not, I'd suck it up and buy what I needed.
No one said it was cheap to be work in this industry. If you shelled out 20K last year on software, you had to feel it was worth it.
I'm more curious about people that don't use AE pro. The standard version is a way for people to save money while owning AE, but if you aren't using the pro version, you probably aren't doing Pro level work. That's not a crack at the ability of the people who own it - rather it's a comment that you need pro tools to do pro work, and that people buying the standard versions of the software, are probably not in a production market, which requires the tools in the pro version.
Yes you can do nice stuff, but to really compete, there are abunch of tools in the pro version that you need. Displacement maps, 3D integration with other programs, keying tools, a lot of effects, plus a whole bunch more...
There are plenty of low-cost tools for Audio editing and DVD making, but the ones that come with a pro package are meant for people in a pro market. If you're trying to save money becasue you aren't doing this as a pro - find software that fits within your budgetary needs.
If you're spending 20K on software (which makes it sound like you do a lot of graphics and animation work), why would you choose to buy AE 7 standard? IF I'd spend any money as someone working with compositing effects and 3D, I'd make sure I had the best tools for the job.
really Not a crack at you, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.
----------------------------------------
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
----------------------------------------
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ www.pIllusionFusion.com
Answers to your questions Aharon by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 4:21:47 pm
"""I don't have Photoshop CS2 or Illustrator CS2."""
I do already have them and I was only interested to see what was new in the core apps.
"""If you shelled out 20K last year on software, you had to feel it was worth it."""
I always look at how I can increase workflow. It is always a balance with upgrades (new features and does the upgrade provide compelling value). For example. I did not upgrade my combustion 3 licenses (both mac and PC) from 3 to 4 because the new feature set was very weak (to me). The diamond keyer is a crutch and the standard keyer has more control. So I passed.
"""I'm more curious about people that don't use AE pro. The standard version is a way for people to save money while owning AE, but if you aren't using the pro version, you probably aren't doing Pro level work."""
For compositing I'm now focused on node based workflows. Shake 4 on the Mac and Fusion 5 on the PC (I am using the 8 bit DFX+5, but I also have another DFX+4 license I might upgrade to a full Fusion 5). After Effects Pro is a good app, but after getting a taste of node based flows I am not as keen to use AE except for some text effects and other situational motion graphics that are better dealt with in a layer based comp. But even then I lean towards Combustion 3 because I can do the same comps faster in combustion because the interface is much better laid out to get work done fast.
My original interest in the video collection was geared more towards Encore DVD, then Premiere Pro, then After Effects, then Audition (order of importance). After Effects has never been the deciding factor. I was very impressed with the integration of Encore and Photoshop for rapid menu creation as well. At the time I was looking for an all in one solution and Adobe fit the bill (at the time).
"""Yes you can do nice stuff, but to really compete, there are abunch of tools in the pro version that you need. Displacement maps, 3D integration with other programs, keying tools, a lot of effects, plus a whole bunch more..."""
Fusion has much deeper 3D integration. And Fusion's particle system lets you work with 2D particles or full 3D particle systems. After Effects falls short of Fusion's high end features.
"""If you're spending 20K on software (which makes it sound like you do a lot of graphics and animation work), why would you choose to buy AE 7 standard? IF I'd spend any money as someone working with compositing effects and 3D, I'd make sure I had the best tools for the job."""
You are focusing heavily on After Effects in this whole questioning process trying to understand where I am coming from, but I'm talking about the collection as a whole, not just After Effects. What it brings to the table as a package. I have all the high end compositing features covered with more capable apps for high end compositing (Shake/Fusion). My use of After Effects is for things it excels at like text effects and great plugins for quick cool effects (Trapcode Particular). I was really hoping for scripting support in Encore DVD and I'm really surprised at how watered down the new features are in this release. DVDSP and Sonic are lapping Adobe.. not by a nose, by an entire LAP.
Adobe's collection is the tightest in the biz (in my opinion). Which is why I was really hoping to see ground breaking new features for a collection that has been in the lab for well over a year.
As I laid out above, my focus in the collection for new features was (in order of importance) Encore, PPro, AE, Audition.
"""Not a crack at you, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from."""
I think my answers will shed some light on the fact why I don't require the Pro version of AE. I have other apps that handle those feature sets much better (Shake/Fusion). If I didn't I would agree with you that they are essential.
Re: Answers to your questions Aharon by Aharon Rabinowitz on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:02:06 pm
"After Effects Pro is a good app, but after getting a taste of node based flows I am not as keen to use AE except for some text effects and other situational motion graphics that are better dealt with in a layer based comp. But even then I lean towards Combustion 3 because I can do the same comps faster in combustion because the interface is much better laid out to get work done fast."
The AE interface (along with the rest of the production studio) now share the same new streamlined interface. And if you want to talk speed, well, as far as workflow goes, the new level of intergration between products speeds up everything. Which is why, if you were using the full production studio, it's worth it to use the whole package.
What you forget is that the price on a bundle of software is an incentive for people to use a company's products. If you aren't interested in using all of them, they you pay more. This is not a new thing.
Fusion has much deeper 3D integration. And Fusion's particle system lets you work with 2D particles or full 3D particle systems. After Effects falls short of Fusion's high end features.
And while I absolutely support you're using a great product like Fusion, it costs 5 times the price of AE, so there is no comparison. In fact the entire adobe Production Studio is a third the price of just that one program. It may not be fair for me to compare all of that, but I'm just pointing out that you get a great set of tools for a low price.
" And why remove DVD authoring in a video collection / bundle???"
They haven't - their professional version still has all of that. They had to draw the line somewhere - while it costs you a few hundred dollars to get everything you want to upgrade (because those professional tools aren't included in a non-profesional or non-production package) - it would cost them a lot more to just give it away.
Straight up, yeah, I think it would be great if Adobe offered things at an even lower price and gave us all the software we want, but realistically, if they charged too little they'd be forced to shut down. Where would that leave us? Perosnally, I'd like them to keep developing their stuff.
----------------------------------------
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
----------------------------------------
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ www.pIllusionFusion.com
Upgrade history by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:45:00 pm
Original Video Collection I
Premiere Pro 1.0
Encore DVD 1.0
Audtion 1.5
After Effects 6.0
Price = $250
------------
Cost to upgrade all those apps to a .5 higher:
Price = $250
------------
Cost now to upgrade those exact same apps the same .5 higher:
Price = $666
------------
It's the same dot release for all four apps. The new features as a collection whole are no better than the last .5 release, yet to just bump them to the new versions is a now requires paying 266% more than the last .5 bump.
To me it is real simple. I see 1 to 1 ratio of new features compared to the last upgrade cycle. Yet there is a 2.66 to 1 price differential. That is not my choice. That is Adobe's doing. I'm pointing out the disparity and so are others. Some will find the math just fine the way it is because they need Photoshop CS2 or Illustrator CS2 or Flash 8 Pro, but I do not.
And again, others in this thread and other threads are voicing the exact same thing I am. If the new features were more compelling you'd be hearing praise coming from me in these threads.
But to me this is the wendy's upgrade "where's the beef?"
Re: Upgrade history by Aharon Rabinowitz on Jan 17, 2006 at 10:11:42 pm
"And again, others in this thread and other threads are voicing the exact same thing I am. If the new features were more compelling you'd be hearing praise coming from me in these threads."
Have you tried the new features yet? Are you sure their so uncompelling. There are testers who have been using this in a production setting and swear by them.
"Cost now to upgrade those exact same apps the same .5 higher:
Price = $666"
And if you were paying for the exact same app you'd be right. But these are not the same program. These are upgrades. New technology that money had to be invested in to create and advance. By your logic a house that someone does work on to imnprove it's value is sdtill the same house and therefore should cost what it did before all that work went into it. Oh, yeah it has a few new things like electrics and a new kithcen, brand new bathrooms, a pool in the back and a whole new floor added at the top. But of course It's on the same property, has the same address, and even the same peope living in it so it's the same house... Right? You know that's untrue.
Adobe has invested money in the app, and has done thier best to make it accessible to peopel that will use it professionally. It will pay for itself in the short run. For those who are students, there are academic prices available. For those who want to buy it just to play around, that;s a choice. But if you use it as a pro, and it will help you and your workflow, and will make money from it, then I don't see the complaint.
Nobody buys a suit and says I'm not really going to wear the jacket too often so just make me pay for the pants. You either buy the suit or you don't. And if you don't need a suit, and only something more casual, you buy a nice pair of pants. But if you need that suit for a business meeting, you buy it or you have to go in without the proper atire.
----------------------------------------
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
----------------------------------------
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ www.pIllusionFusion.com
Adobe is falling further behind the competition by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 11:13:28 pm
For the upgrade price (for me) it lacks the professional features any pro needs to be competitive. I was hoping to see Adobe catch up to the market place. They didn't. I guess in 18 to 24 months they'll try again.
If I compared Avid, Apple and Adobe on the NLE side, even though PPro has the freshest and newest release, it still has not added support that it's competitors already support natively. It pales in comparison with various formats. Supported formats at Adobe.com (for PPro 2)
NO DVCPro support without third party help
NO DVCPro HD/P2 support without third party help
etc, etc, etc... Meanwhile FCP and Avid have native support for many of these right out of the box. You see? Where's the beef? Where are the features that should have been implemented in the last 18 months just to stay even with the competition.
A feature by feature comarison of Encore DVD 2 vs [ DVDSP4, DVDit Pro 6 and DVD Lab Pro ]... again Adobe lacks professional features that should have made it into this latest release. It lags the market yet again even though the other apps were released months and months ago.
And just so you know, DFX+5 (the 8 bit version of Fusion 5) is $1295, not $4995 like its big brother. I point this out because for $295 more than AE Pro 7 you get an amazing feature set. Granted you don't have the float abilities in the 8 bit version, but if you are only doing broadcast stuff, DFX+5 is a powerful beast.
If you plan to step into the DVDPro world and/or buy a panasonic HVX-200 (like I am), then the native support players are Apple and Avid. Adobe's known about it since NAB so why no native support for PPro??? And Encore got a mild face lift and a bunch of premade templates as it's two biggest new features.
I guess if you are a wedding or event videographer and don't need high end NLE and DVD authoring features, then this package will suit you fine.
BTW, I'm done by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 11:25:27 pm
We keep going back and forth and around in circles. You see these apps as pro level. To me they are just shy of that title, but enough new features that I was willing to pay $249 to bump them up .5 apiece. Not willing to pay $666 for the modest bump they got.
The collection still lags the marketplace when going feature by feature. That is not an opinion. Just go to Avid.com, Apple.com, and Adobe.com and go through feature by feature. Adobe falls short of the competition.
I'm not upgrading for $666. And I'm not coming back to this thread to read anymore regarding this new collection. We use different apps, so we have different views of value here.
For others it will be a great entry and a great bundle. I was expecting to see more given how much time these have been in development.
I am honestly not returning to this paticular thread, but if you want to email me directly I'll be happy to respond further.
Re: BTW, I'm done by Ken Burnston on Jan 17, 2006 at 11:45:17 pm
I tend to want to discount the opinion of a guy who says on one hand that he spends $20,000 in a year for his software but owns the Standard version and never saw the value in previous Production Bundle versions. Some upgrades in the past were quite cheap and offered big steps forward in functionality and power. Considering that you never saw the value in previous versions of After Effects, it makes me look elsewhere for a balanced and intelligent opinion of the value of this new version.
Don't get me wrong, I am not happy about this pricing program and as a guy who owns both the Adobe tools and those from Macromedia, I feel that this is clearly the new from-Macromedia director of the Adobe dynamic media department.
But even saying that, your comments sound foolish coming from a guy who rants but hasn't seen the value of even cheap upgrades and who then wants to diss After Effects as not being a professional tool. It really strikes me as sour grapes and another suspect rant.
Re: BTW, I'm done by Aharon Rabinowitz on Jan 18, 2006 at 2:15:41 pm
More importantly, for a guy who starts a string with a rant of "has adobe lost thier minds?????" it's amazing that you'd just walk out after you've had enough.
Mike, you have the right to be unhappy about the situation, what's not appreciated here is the fact that you are looking at it from only one perspective - the perspective of someone who owns a non-professional package which adobe can no longer support. It sucks but that happens sometimes. I would also be unhappy if I were in your position, but I also understand economics and realize that there's apoint where you can;t get blood from a stone.
I'm not clear what it is you do for a living, but you made the comment that all of these tools fall short of being professional. I can't speak for every package in the suite, but anyone who says that AE is not a pro tool, has never worked in an animation house, advertising firm, or film studio. I have worked and trained at tons of places here in NYC, and I have never been anywhere that didn't have and use After Effects to some degree, if not primarily.
Furthermore, I will grant you that premiere doesn't have anything close to the same market that other NLE's, and that may be the case for the rest of the software in the suite - however if you don't like them, and don't think that their good tools, stop complaining about how terrible adobe is being and don't buy them. Why would you even buy them if they were subpar?
Again, you have the right to be unhappy - but what you did was com in here and start a flame against adobe, and weren't looking for anything more than for people to agree with you, and that's not what this forum is for.
----------------------------------------
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
----------------------------------------
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ www.pIllusionFusion.com
Re: Has Adobe lost their minds???? by Steve Kilisky on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:31:59 am
Hi Mike,
Maybe we lost our minds, but here is some additional info behind the configuration changes. Both editions offer the core tools for post production: Premiere, After Effects and Photoshop. The Premium edition which includes Encore, Audition and Illustrator, and AE Pro in addition to Premiere and Photoshop offers what we feel is the most comprehensive set tools for film/video post at what we hope customers will feel is an attractive price point.
Premiere Pro while not as sophisticated as Audition for audio, has a strong set of audio tools for common audio post needs. Premiere Pro 2.0 added DVD authoring from within the timeline, that while not a replacement for Encore DVD, allows for fairly powerful basic DVD authoring. Feedback we received also indicated that customers felt Photoshop was fundamental to post production workflows and should be included in the Standard Suite. When we combined all of these factors with the fact that the majority of customers purchase the Pro VCOL, we felt with this change in the long run better met our customer needs.
We did not make this change lightly and ulitmately after weighing the pros and cons felt that these two new configurations better allowed us to meet the needs of our customers who have different needs and budgets.
While I respect that you still may not agree with the decision, my goal is to help explain why the changes were made, (hopefully for the better).
Re: Has Adobe lost their minds???? by Drizzt_G on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:51:25 am
Mike, I already thought about the option of buying Motion 2 and upgrading to Final Cut Studio in the next months, but Apple has already fixed that loophole. Look on their site, you can only buy FC Studio, you cannot buy the apps seperatly. Another sign FCP 6 is coming with upgrades to all the Pro apps.
The loophole is NOT closed by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 8:58:01 am
This is getting off subject (my fault here), but you can buy either SoundTrack Pro or Motion 2 online from many online vendors (amazon, etc., etc...) just google.
Also CompUSA sells SoundTrack Pro seperately as well.
Apple may not be offering them on their site, but they are out there in droves. You just have to look.
Even if you pay the $499 to upgrade to the next studio version with FCP6 it should only be the typical $499 upgrade. That comes to $947 to get to Final Cut Studio with all the next generation versions (FCP6, Motion 3, etc...).
Steve, I agree to disagree by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 9:18:11 am
I don't think this was thought through from all angles. Everyone I know and network with online and off that owns the video collection, owns the standard version (not the pro). Granted this is only 11 guys, but none of them were using the prior version with AE Pro and PhotoshopCS. Mainly because they already had photoshop (like any professional) and there was no need to pay extra for a suite that has an app you already own.
When those 11 wake up in the morning they are going to be fuming and flaming on threads online. $666 is their upgrade path now to all version 2 apps.
I've already made them aware of the FCStudio $498 upgrade path and it will be interesting to see who jumps ship. Most of us are dual platform.
The only guy I know who will see this and not upgrade and also not go to FCStudio is Alex Alexzander. He was waiting to see if Adobe was finally going to make Adobe Encore DVD a real authoring app with scripting (like DVD Studio Pro and DVD Lab Pro). I was hoping for that myself as well. I even created video training for Encore DVD which I sell online. I was pretty committed and hot about the Video Collection. But this $666 upgrade versus the last $250 upgrade is insane.
I was so looking forward to seeing what Adobe had been working on for well over a year. I am actually very underwhelmed and very dissappointed. I've been talking about how excited I was about this upgrade to so many folks. I think PPro and AE got the best of the upgraded apps.
I can honestly say with no hype and with a clear mind that I will not be paying $666 to upgrade my apps. And like I said... I already own the other non-video collection apps in the Premium version. I was a hard core Macromedia Guy before I bought LiveMotion 2. I even have multiple Studio 8 licenses and multiple Director licenses. But I'll be migrating to greener pastures after seeing Adobe's change of direction.
And I'd be shocked if even a third of my buds upgrade using the $666 upgrade path.
compelling value Steve by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 10:15:55 am
Steve,
I do think that someone who has not been a loyal video collection customer will be thrilled with the pricing. There is compelling value there for the person that doesn't already own many of these apps as I do.
And if the upgraded apps had stronger feature sets I'd just pay the $666. But for having well over a year to work on them I am actually underwhelmed. Impressed enough that I was looking for that ORDER button to pay $250 for the upgrades, but not impressed enough to consider $666.
WOW! You guys really blew this one! by Lance Bachelder on Jan 17, 2006 at 10:39:00 am
I have to concur with Mike on this thread - the new upgrade pricing is just plain idiotic! You're making previous customers pay for software they may already have(Photoshop/Illustrator) in order to upgrade their video products. And the new software is useless to people who don't want or need the additional software because it can't be installed and activated unless you already own an older copy!(unlike Micosoft which is pretty generous on bundle installation allowing Word users to upgrade to Office)
Then there's the UPGRADE price!!! $499 for the standard bundle!?! $649 for Pro bundle!?! Who inside Adobe approved this? The new apps are great and huge improvements to workflow, specially Premiere Pro - but you've negated months and months of beta testing and engineering in one fell swoop! Adobe must know there are competing products out there - none of which offers such a bizarre upgrade path. It's going to be interesting to see how all this shakes out but I suspect some firings are coming soon at Adobe.
Jeez, my names all over the Adobe press releases - I'm embarrassed and would never have signed a release had I known this mega-blunder was in the works.
Lance Bachelder
Southern California
Cow Forum Host- Magic Bullet
Apple Dual 2Ghz G5 ATIx800, 2.5GB RAM, OSX Tiger FCP Studio
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Re: Has Adobe lost their minds???? by robkahn on Jan 17, 2006 at 5:11:12 pm
Steve,
It has been said many times but I'll voice in as well.
Ive been on the upgrade path for a long time in individual products and only recently bought packages because it seemed the best economic choice. However, now the packages are overlapping more and more. I also owned the Macromedia products particularly Flash. As I understand, in order to stay on an upgrade path to protect my video package rights, I now have to purchase a second copy of Flash 8, Illustrator CS2, Photoshop CS2, Bridge CS2, and by the licencing agreement have 2 licenses for them but only be able to use them [4 second licenses] on one machine. That feels like ... well, not right.
What is needed is a way a customer to be recognized for supporting your products in what ever packaging configuration; especially with the Macromedia merger, a way which recognizes existing rights ownership, to in order to remain in or repackage into an video bundle upgrade path.
Might I suggest the ability the ability to receive rebates for current version licenses?
Re: What about customers who bought most products seperately over time? And other strange things... by Peter NRG on Jan 17, 2006 at 1:00:46 pm
Everytime Adobe announces new bundles I really feel left behind, this time even more.
I own Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium, Adobe Digital Video Collection, After Effects 6.5 Pro & Premiere 6.5 (which I bought seperately), and still I cannot use the lowest priced upgrade solution.
I'm even more surprized at the strange price differences between US & European customers (and I'm not talking about exchange and tax rates here):
Example:
upgrade from Video Collection Pro to Production Studio Premium: US$649.00 / 649.00 EURO
upgrade from Video Collection Std to Production Studio Premium: US$799.00 / 849.00 EURO ???
upgrade from Creative Suite 2 Pre to Production Studio Premium: US$999.00 / 999.00 EURO
upgrade from PremPro, PS or AEpro to Production Studio Premium: US$1249.00 / 1449.00 EURO ???
IMHO: customers who bought different Suites/Collections/Upgrades in the past should really get a special deal here. I'm wondering when Adobe will annouce the Super Bundle, with all web, video & print apps in it, so they can attract new customers for little money.
Another strange thing: US customers get the Production Studio product on DVD-rom, while Europeans still get a box full of CD's :)
As a long time Adobe customer (for over 10 years now), and with all these Suite/Studio/Collection releases, I as a single individual have about 3 Photoshop licenses right now.... I don't see any need for such luxuary :)
Adobe needs a more comprehensive upgrade path. by Doug Jacobson on Jan 17, 2006 at 4:47:39 pm
My business produces both video and print. I have been a staunch supporter of Adobe products for years. In fact I've never used a competing product (except for Flash when Live Motion development ended).
I own the following Adobe products:
Creative Suite 2 Premium
Premiere Pro 1.5
After Effects 6.5 Professional
Encore 1.5
Audition 1.5
It looks like my lowest cost upgrade path is $999 because of Creative Suite 2 Premium. I can't believe I wont get credit for owning actual video products. If I upgrade each of my video apps separately it will cost me $676, but that leaves me without the new Dynamic Link. So Dynamic Link would effectively cost me $323.
I really dislike the idea of paying twice for an application (i.e. Photoshop and Illustrator). Being forced into a bundle means this is exactly what I'll have to do, since you can't buy Dynamic Link by itself.
This is expensive enough to make me take pause and consider other options.
I sincerely hope Adobe will consider more comprehensive updgrade paths.
Bottom Line. by Andrew Kramer on Jan 17, 2006 at 5:23:32 pm
Bottom Line,
Ask yourself one question...
Is the cost to upgrade worth the new enhancements? Go print the new features list, lay down under your desk, read through it, Take a 20 minute nap, then make a decision.
If this new product helps your productivity even 5 percent the answer is yes. If you want to save your 200 bucks for version 8 or 10, Fine. But how much money will you save or earn in the next year or 2 at a poductivity rate enhancement of 5 percent.
Needless to say I'm sure my workflow will improve far more.
Re: Bottom Line. by Lance Bachelder on Jan 17, 2006 at 5:36:35 pm
That's not the point. All the new app's are significant, much improved upgrades and those buying bundles for the first time should be very happy. But Adobe is attempting something no software company has ever done - charging you for software but not allowing you to use it. This is like trading in your old car for a new one with air conditioning (paying extra for the air) but not being allowed to turn it on because your trade-in didn't have air. The only way to use the air would have been to not trade-in the old car and pay full price for the new one.
Lance Bachelder
Southern California
Cow Forum Host- Magic Bullet
Apple Dual 2Ghz G5 ATIx800, 2.5GB RAM, OSX Tiger FCP Studio
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Re: Bottom Line. by Mike James on Jan 17, 2006 at 6:06:26 pm
I don't recall a widespread outrage online the last upgrade cycle. It is not just here at the cow that this is being discussed. There are far worse flames on other sites and utter disgust and contempt for what I can only see as a major oversight by management. If the available options were fair there wouldn't be so much flaming online.
And I did as you said. There are way fewer reasons to upgrade this time around then last to justify paying what I thought would be the same upgrade costs, but instead is $666.
I can deploy my money in more efficient alternatives... hence why I am not upgrading. The reason I am so vocal is that my preference was to find great new features and simply stay with Adobe. But they are making really easy to turn my back and look elsewhere.
Re: Bottom Line. by sam.mltn on Jan 17, 2006 at 6:20:46 pm
I can't believe the outrage when the demo hasn't been tried yet and nobody that's complaining has actually used the program. I'm looking forward to the MGLA meeting tonight. I'm in town and am drooling at the mouth.
Re: You got it wrong. by Aharon Rabinowitz on Jan 17, 2006 at 10:23:49 pm
you mean non-pro upgraders. the pro version of this package has a good upgrade.
Just a guess, but it seems like adobe has decided that the Standard upgrade path that they used in the past can't sustain itself at the prices they were offering. How hard is that to understand?
And there's nothing wrong with that. Over the years, I've had to change my daily rate to pay for the changes in my costs of living. Personally, I'd prefer it if Adobe didn't go bankrupt by not covering theor costs.
It's amazing that not a single person has said "well yeah I use these tools to make money and their good tools, so maybe it's worth investing in for a production package." Honestly if you are not using them to make a living, maybe it's not worth the investment. figure out why you're buying them, and then decide of it's worth paying for.
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
www.allbetsareoff.com
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Technical Problems, Solutions and Tips by Steve Roberts on Jan 17, 2006 at 11:56:53 pm
Okay boys, I think we're stretching the mandate of the COW here. Ron & Kathlyn can correct me, but I've always thought of this COW forum as limited to AE technical problems and solutions rather than general AE discussion.
The more general we get, the harder it is for technical problems to see the light of day.
I realize that a new release generates discussion, but I think that this discussion has served its purpose, that is to make Adobe aware of the upgrade cost issues, since obviously Steve Kilisky has been paying attention.
