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Adobe RGB color space issue

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Ivar EddingAdobe RGB color space issue
by on May 20, 2011 at 1:33:01 pm

Hey guys!

I was wondering if anyone have experienced this issue:
* I shot some video with the 7D, following advice from Shane Hurlbut to use the AdobeRGB setting in the 7D to produce the best skin tones. So having shot the material, I converted the h264 out of the camera into Prores444 for grading capability. I then imported the clips into AE, interpreted them as AdobeRGB(1998) and set the color setting of the project into AdobeRGB(1998), and bam! The skin tones really looked nice! BUT - whenever I render out of AE, the colors change, regardless of output format (mov, tif, png etc) See this link to my flickr page. This image http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivaredding/5672303476/in/photostream is a screen capture from the comp window in AE. This image http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivaredding/5671736913/in/photostream/ is a render out of AE. The render lacks red, and seems desaturated.
When asking about this on the Shane Hurlbut blog, the answer I got was to not convert to Prores, but to import as H264 straight into AE. I have yet to try this, but I can't see how this would change the color setting? It seems like AE bakes in some kind of LUT when rendering, as if it's forcing the AdobeRGB color space into sRGB colorspace, thereby losing information. Or something.

Anyone?

------------------------------------
Mac Pro 8 core, 16gb RAM, OS 10.6.6, AE CS5
Canon 7D, Canon 50mm 1.4, Leica 24mm 2.8, Tokina 11-16mm 2.8


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Walter SoykaRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 20, 2011 at 2:30:32 pm

[Ivar Edding] "It seems like AE bakes in some kind of LUT when rendering, as if it's forcing the AdobeRGB color space into sRGB colorspace, thereby losing information. Or something."

By default, with color management on, AE will use the working space as the output profile. If the next app to read the file isn't color managed or isn't expecting AdobeRGB, it may not display as you intend.

You probably want to change the output profile to something that your other apps expect (maybe sRGB or Rec. 709).

Edit the output module and adjust its output profile in the module's Color Management tab.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jon BaggeRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 21, 2011 at 3:38:25 pm

In addition to the points Walter raised, I would set the project setting to whatever your output will be. Typically 709 for HD. But make sure you interpret the footage correctly (as Adobe 1998).

This won't look quite the same, but it will give you some idea of what it will finally look like. And it means other elements you create in AE or bring in will look correct even if they're not in Adobe 1998.

--------------
http://www.jonbagge.net
Jon Bagge - Editor - London, UK
Avid - FCP - After Effects


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Walter SoykaRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 21, 2011 at 6:25:31 pm

[Jon Bagge] "I would set the project setting to whatever your output will be. Typically 709 for HD. But make sure you interpret the footage correctly (as Adobe 1998)."

I agree that this is a great practice for single deliverables -- and I think it'd be good in Ivar's workflow -- but it's not technically necessary for the working space to match the output profile. It is necessary that the working space's gamut be large enough to encompass all the colors in the output profiles.

For example, if you're delivering for HD and NTSC SD from the same project, you can work in Rec. 709 (which contains SMPTE C), but not SMPTE C, because parts of Rec. 709 would fall out of gamut.

I think Adobe RGB has a wider gamut than sRGB/Rec.709, so it be ok to use as the working space -- but it won't offer any additional benefits unless Ivar is delivering anything in Adobe RGB.

[Jon Bagge] "This won't look quite the same, but it will give you some idea of what it will finally look like. And it means other elements you create in AE or bring in will look correct even if they're not in Adobe 1998."

For clarification, using color management and correctly interpreting footage will keep the colors looking as correct as possible on a calibrated display and in the color managed outputs, regardless of the working space -- with the one caveat above that the working space must be large enough.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jon BaggeRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 22, 2011 at 3:31:08 pm

I think Adobe RGB has a wider gamut than sRGB/Rec.709, so it be ok to use as the working space -- but it won't offer any additional benefits unless Ivar is delivering anything in Adobe RGB.


Adobe RGB is much bigger than sRGB, but I thought 709 was similar in size to Adobe RGB, whereas 601 is similar in size to sRGB.
I could be wrong.

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http://www.jonbagge.net
Jon Bagge - Editor - London, UK
Avid - FCP - After Effects


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Ivar EddingRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 27, 2011 at 3:22:19 pm

Hey guys!

Thank you for your time to answer my question!

After following your guidelines and some experimenting, I found the following:
- I had set the project working space to AdobeRGB(1998), and I interpreted the clips as working space, i.e. they also adopted the AdobeRGB(1998) color space. This made all the renders, whatever the output profile, to look washed out and desaturated. This happened even if I clicked "preserve RGB" in the output profile.
- I then tried setting my working space to different kinds of Rec709, and since my clips followed the working space they changed accordingly. The regular Rec709 also made the clips in the comp viewer look washed out, but the Rec709 16-235 made them look quite decent. Don't know what's going on there, is the 16-235 some kind of s-curve LUT? However, the renders still looked bad.
- I then switched my working space to sRGB, which made the clips change, and they looked washed out in the comp viewer. Then I went into the clips and interpreted them as AdobeRGB(1998), and boom - back to looking good. Now when I rendered using working space (sRGB), it look good!

So my lesson was to keep the working space at sRGB, and not interpret the clips as working space if captured using anything else than standard sRGB.

Thanx again!

------------------------------------
Mac Pro 8 core, 16gb RAM, OS 10.6.6, AE CS5
Canon 7D, Canon 50mm 1.4, Leica 24mm 2.8, Tokina 11-16mm 2.8


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Walter SoykaRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 27, 2011 at 3:38:32 pm

Hi Ivar,

Glad you figured it out. I'll try to explain to you what you're seeing now.

Different color profiles may use the same RGB numbers to represent different colors. A specific RGB value in Adobe RGB may look different on-screen than it does in Rec. 709, and Adobe RGB and Rec. 709 may use different RGB numbers to represent the same color.

The goal of color management is to keep the appearance of color consistent across profiles and devices. To do that, you must define how the color is coming in (by interpreting your footage with the correct profile), and and also define how it's going out (by choosing a working space that matches your destination, or by choosing another working space and adding a profile that matches your destination to the output module).

The working space is the color profile that AE will "think" in. It almost doesn't matter what working space you use (provided it's a large enough color space).

Again, the most critical components here are setting the correct color profiles for input and output.


[Ivar Edding] "This happened even if I clicked "preserve RGB" in the output profile."

This switch essentially turns off color management for your output.


[Ivar Edding] "Don't know what's going on there, is the 16-235 some kind of s-curve LUT?"

Not really -- it scales full range values (0-255) to video range values (16-235) for video systems which require it.


[Ivar Edding] " then switched my working space to sRGB, which made the clips change, and they looked washed out in the comp viewer. Then I went into the clips and interpreted them as AdobeRGB(1998), and boom - back to looking good. Now when I rendered using working space (sRGB), it look good!"

There you go -- you're interpreting your imported footage with the correct profile (Adobe RBG) and outputting to a profile that matches your destination (sRGB).

You'd see the same result if you set your working space for Rec. 709 AND interpreted your footage as AdobeRGB.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter SoykaRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 27, 2011 at 3:39:37 pm

[Jon Bagge] "Adobe RGB is much bigger than sRGB, but I thought 709 was similar in size to Adobe RGB, whereas 601 is similar in size to sRGB."

I thought sRGB was the basis for 709.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ivar EddingRe: Adobe RGB color space issue
by on May 30, 2011 at 8:13:58 am

Thanks again for the help!

------------------------------------
Mac Pro 8 core, 16gb RAM, OS 10.6.6, AE CS5
Canon 7D, Canon 50mm 1.4, Leica 24mm 2.8, Tokina 11-16mm 2.8


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