Sony PMW-EX1 vs Panasonic HVX-200 Shootout footage online

Just out of curiosity- what are your overall conclusions? That's a lot of downloading and your server looks a bit overloaded right now.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, Apple Color and now the HVX200!
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What's that? The EX1 has less noise than the HVX?? Its about 3 stops faster???

From that alone I'd say it wins over the HVX... nevermind the amazing improvements of sdi and timecode out...

2 Questions

1.) You mentioned problems importing. what is the workflow like with FCP?

2.) How well do you think the two cameras could be cut together?


thanks for posting.

[Don Greening] "The workflow is pretty simple, actually"

Well, here I'd disagree -- I think the HVX, workflow wise, blows the EX1 into the weeds. So many annoying little things about the EX1's SxS implementation... it's like they didn't figure out all the things that make tapeless so cool. They totally missed the boat on that. I've been using an HVX for a couple of years so I'm very familiar with how people work with this, and the SxS system is extremely limiting in so many ways.

For example: on the HVX you can jump from camera mode to playback mode in about 2 seconds, maybe less. Pop over, play back a clip, review footage, pop back to camera mode, all effortlessly. On the EX1, it takes 14 seconds. Think about that for a second -- or, better yet, count it out. Count out 14 seconds. That's how long it takes before the camera reboots and you can play a clip back. You could play back footage faster in a tape-based camera!

Okay, another thing -- on an HVX, if you're in playback mode and some action starts that you need to catch, you just press the "record" button -- the camera automatically toggles back to camera mode and starts recording, all within about two seconds. On the EX1, it won't do that. You have to actually push the power switch through "off" and over to "camera" mode, and then you have to wait about 11 seconds while it boots up, and then press record. Sorry, by that time your shot is *gone*. Or, actually, it can get worse -- let's say that you think you're done shooting so you push the switch over to playback mode, and three seconds later you realize "oh crud -- I need to be shooting!" Push the switch back to camera mode, and wait for 25 seconds! Because it has to fully finish booting up in playback mode, even though you've already moved to camera mode! And once it finishes that 14-second process, then you have to wait while it re-boots itself into camera mode. This isn't the kind of thing that's going to show up on a res chart, but it's the kind of thing that's going to make you want to drop-kick it like a football when you're waiting close to 30 seconds before you can roll!

Tapeless should be about instant access. Not only in shooting, not only in playback, but also in post. I use Sony Vegas, version 7.0 on my laptop, using Raylight and I also tried it on an FCP system. On the Windows system with Vegas/Raylight or Premiere Pro, I take an HVX P2 card, plug it in, and edit the footage instantly. The SxS system made me go through a file conversion "export" process before I could drag the files into Vegas. Why? Don't know; maybe that's fixed in Vegas 8. On FCP we had to go through two steps, there was the Export to MXF and then there was a second process that had to be run, I think it was some manner of clip importer (I'm not an FCP guy, but when I use FCP I drag the MXF files right to the timeline using Raylight).

The EX1 had some definite bonuses; the manual focus was nice, but as a practical matter it really wasn't any more effective than the HVX's, and the manual zoom was fundamentally identical. The iris ring was a nice touch though, as was the colored peaking and the sharper LCD. But it had some big negatives too; the rolling shutter artifacting was pretty bad, it's impossible to use handheld unless you can devote two hands to it, it has a nice sharp picture until you start moving and then the res drops dramatically (watch all your nice colored peaking just disappear whenever you move -- it's because you lose hundreds of lines of resolution whenever the system is moving, and that's *not* due to the codec, I'm talking about the live uncompressed output here!)

All in all, the EX1 does have reasons to justify its higher price tag. It has that "looking through a window" high-def look that the HVX doesn't quite have. It's sharper and clearer with less noise, and it is (splitting the difference) about a stop more sensitive. And it has a 10-bit HD-SDI output port. But the workflow sucks eggs, actually working with the unit was irritating because it was so slow, and the rolling shutter ruins shots (weddings? press conferences? red-carpet events? I wouldn't trust it). P2 blows away SxS. There's no metadata! There's no clip information at all, other than a shot marker. Heck, we had shot markers on tape! I dunno, I shy away from crass words, but the only term I can think of that appropriately describes the EX1/SxS approach to solid state memory recording is "half-assed." They left a lot on the table.

If you need crystal-clear imagery with that looking-through-a-window HD "look", and you're not going to get screwed over by the rolling shutter, then yes the EX1 offers a lot at a modest price premium (about 30% more expensive). But I think the workflow and usability of the HVX is much better than the EX1.

Hi,

I actually find EX1 and FCP workflow easier than HVX. In EX1 case transfer is faster and there is no need to convert to QT because camera records in that format so FCP just need to unwrap file that take few seconds for whatever lenght clip. SxS card goes straight into my laptop and any other new laptop. Client can download free software to watch clips.
I have Chrosziel mattebox with 4x4 and 4x5 trays with rods support that I used on HVX and now by using different step down ring I can mount it upside down and use filters on EX1. Works fine for me.
I agree that going back and forth between playback mode and record mode takes time but you can set camera return button so it will playback your last clip instantly without switching to playback mode.
There is always something about each camera that not everybody will like. I do not like that it does not have 56000K preset switch. Otherwise it is great medium size semi-professional camera.

It is so hard to do a fair test.

As a long time user of HVX and after looking at your footage I say that it wasn't use correctly.

I don't think that there no doubt that the EX-1 is brighter. There is even a test done by DV magazine that report that the EX-1 and the HVX are both rated at 320 ASA. I have tested it and I know that the EX-1 is brighter. Not 3 stops brighter as you said (1240 ASA) but brighter.

If we agree that one camera is brighter than the other when doing the other test sharpness and motion we should set each camera at their best best setting for that particular test.

In order to get the best resolution out of the HVX the exposure has to be from perfect to 1/3 f stop over expose. It is obvious that in your test the HVX is under exposed while the EX-1 is about 1/3 f stop over exposed in all the clips that I saw.

The EX-1 should be sharper than the HVX according to their specs., but I have other HDV cameras with higher specs than the HVX that don't even close.

There are other features on the HVX that I don't think that the EX-1 has. For example I can shoot at 18 fps like a super 8 and still get sound and not under cranking. I can also shoot 720p 24 @ 60 fps and get both over cranking regular motion and sound. I personally didn't try on thee EX-1 but the Sony rep doing a presentation couldn't do it.

The EX-1 a great little camera and I am sure that you could find great features. I like the sharp LCD, low light, comfortable grip adjustments, HD-SDI, etc. I don't think it will replace the HVX as the camera of choice for INDIs but it is a good contender.

I personally own the Sony FX-1, Canon A1 and HV-20 as well as the HVX. They all have different uses.

May be the best way to compare cameras is to have owner of each cameras that know the camera inside out be the user. I would ask each one what the best features of each camera is and include those features in the comparison.

That won't guarantee a perfect comparison, but at least one wouldn't be favored.

It is even hard for me to test my own cameras because I have an emotional attachment to justify the expense of the latest camera I bought. :-)




Douglas Villalba

http://www.dvtvproductions.com

dvillalba@dvtvproductions.com

G5 QUAD 4.5 GB RAM, Decklink HD Extreme, HVX200, FX1, A1 & HV20. Letus Extreme 35 mm adaptor, Rails, GlideCam

[Barry Green] "When both cameras were configured to deliver a fundamentally identical image (i.e., comparable gamma, comparable color rendition, both in 1080/24p mode, both in 180-degree shutter) the EX1 was more sensitive -- by 1/2 of one stop. 0.5 stops. Not three stops! One half of one stop."

Barry

that was not my finding with the testing I am currently doing at Fletcher Chicago, while our tests are not yet finished, we are finding that the EX1 camera is showing about 1 - 1.5 stops of additional lowlight capability over the HVX however. This is not close to 3 stops, and in all honesty the tests images shown on that website cannot properly evaluate the 2 cameras,

The big one for me was the resolution charts should have been set up better, the shots are useless to in in comparison between the 2 cameras since the HVX chart was NOT perfectly square to the chart being shot and that can dramatically skew the quality of the captured result.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD

dude thats hecka cool man

"Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks to me like the Panny camera was not focused on the same objects (the scenery shot with the hedges in the fg is a good example of this). Even the test pattern looks like the Panny sample was shot off-angle or something"

Like I said the test wasn't entirely scientific. We just placed both cameras next to each other and shot the same scenes with "close-enough" framing. Nothing too serious, it was just so people could see the general differences. This is why the angle is different for each shot, but I think the test still shows a good general comparison of the EX1 looking a certain way compared to the HVX. We aren't trying to discredit either camera here.

[Pat McGowan] "I understand Matt. The problem is that more than one response on this thread has commented on the superior detail in the Sony image compared to the (slightly soft focused) Panny. To my eye, this is even apparent in the test chart grab but I could be wrong."

I wouldn't argue that at all, the EX1 can deliver a noticeably sharper image especially on a static shot. In 720p mode they're very comparable, in 1080 mode the EX1 pulls significantly ahead in terms of sharpness -- as long as the camera isn't moving. In motion the resolution drops off a lot, and they end up being about the same on a pan. I don't understand the exact reasons why this happens (although I have my suspicions) but it's not something I'd blame on MPEG-2; it happens on the live output. In fact, it happens on the cam's own LCD -- go to 100% wide angle, turn on peaking (especially in yellow) and shoot some trees, etc. You should see a sea of yellow peaking. Now pan side to side, and all your peaking disappears until you stop moving. That doesn't happen on an HVX or, well, any other camera I can think of, but it happens on the Sony.

My theory is that they're doing some aggressive noise reduction algorithms, averaging frames together to bring the noise down, and moving the camera averages out that fine detail. It results in great-looking static shots but the shots go softer in motion. (btw, this actually helps the MPEG encoding, so I'm not saying it's a bad design decision, but just be aware that the super-sharp frame grabs you're going to see from this camera don't necessarily translate into super-sharp motion footage).

But yes, it's sharper and clearer than the HVX; the grain level looks to equate out to the HVX at about 6db to 9db. Note though, adding gain really sucks out your resolution on the EX1, probably for the same noise-averaging reason. At 18dB it's a snowstorm (as you'd expect, and as is fair for any camera at 18dB) but also all the fine detail disappears. This also affects the recording. 6dB is fine, looks like an HVX at 0dB. 9dB is fine too. 12dB might be pushing it, and 18dB is right out.

Nice footage - the EX1 seems to produce a nice picture without much effort. I would really be interested in seeing "over and under cranked" footage from the "Mini-Alta". :-)

Thanks,

Shawn

Perhaps it's less of a "fear issue" as much as not "hanging out" on a particular forum on a regular basis. :-) I'm sure your video is stunning, but I could'nt see it, I got a black frame and a QT control bar. Do you have that footage posted in another format?

Thanks,

Shawn

"I was being facetious when I said fear."

I know - I wasn't exactly serious either. Apologies if I seemed less than playful. :-)

BTW - I did see your footage from another machine. It looked good... I'm anxious to see even more variable framerate "stuff" from the EX.

Thanks,

Shawn

[Craig Seeman] " one of the things both the HVX200 and the EX1 do have in common is undercrank/overcrank. I shot at 720p60 in 720p24. The interesting things was having the shallow DOF the 1/2" chips provided. You can see on the close-up of the faces on the carousel, they go from soft to sharp to soft again as they pass through the "sweet" spot."


True- but do the test again with a frame rate that is not divisible by 3 or 5 and you will see something very different, by shooting at 60fps you let the 15 frame GOP take control.
By working at a slightly different frame rate ( say 59) you are forceing the camera to generate more iframes than p or B frames, providing you with better images overall.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD

Thanks Matt for posting your shootout clips between the EX-1 and the HVX.

If all I had to judge these cameras on was by your clips, I would have to go with the HVX hands down as my personal choice. The EX-1 is by far much sharper, but it looks over sharpened and screams "video" to me. The HVX was indeed softer, but the look was to my eye much more film like, organic and with better more solid colors. Viewing the HVX clips I could almost believe it was shot on film, not so with the EX-1. This is not to say that the EX-1 had a bad picture, as it clearly was excellent, it just looked more like good but typical HD video.

Hopefully, the prices on the HVX will drop now that the EX-1 has made its appearance!

kinda funny how Panasonic release the hvx200 over 3 years ago, and this comparison on the brand NEW ex1 whows the sony barely beating the 3yr old hvx, lol. sounds to me like oanasonic is doing their job well. i guess that is why they compare the EX1 to the hvx200 and not the current panasonic model (hpx500) since that panasonic would blow the sony away.