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1080 24p FCP workflow questions

COW Forums : Panasonic HVX - HPX (P2)

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jordan821080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 25, 2006 at 7:53:45 pm

I recently shot some test footage with the HVX200 using the camera's 1080/24pA setting. I'm attempting to establish a post workflow for a feature I will be editing that wants to shoot and edit at 1080/24 for eventual delivery as a 1080p BluRay disc.

The footage I shot was sometimes recorded to a CitiDisk HD recorder, and sometimes to P2 cards. I currently have all of the footage from both media imported into FCP v.5.0.4 on a Dual G5 PowerPC. My questions are:

1.) When I look at my clip properties, the footage appears to have a framerate of 29.97, rather than 24 or 23.98. Is there a way to work with this footage at "native" 24p - and what specifically would that entail?

2.) In FCP, there is no DVCPRO HD preset for 1080/24p - only 1080i/60 and 1080i/50. Am I supposed to use one of those settings or do I need to modify the presets to properly work with my footage.

3.) What is the difference between 23.98 and 24p? Is 23.98 interlaced? Which is better for eventual delivery on BluRay 1080p?

Thanks very much for your advice. Happy Holidays & Happy New Year!

- Jordan


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Shane RossRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 26, 2006 at 2:24:06 am

[jordan82] "1.) When I look at my clip properties, the footage appears to have a framerate of 29.97, rather than 24 or 23.98. Is there a way to work with this footage at "native" 24p - and what specifically would that entail?"

Only the P2 card can record footage at the NATIVE resolutions. You might try to reverse telecine them with CInema Tools.

[jordan82] "2.) In FCP, there is no DVCPRO HD preset for 1080/24p - only 1080i/60 and 1080i/50. Am I supposed to use one of those settings or do I need to modify the presets to properly work with my footage."

That setting is available at least on 5.1.2. Make sure you have SHOW ALL selected. If it isnt' there, then modify a setting to make it match...OR...try this work around:

http://www.proapptips.com/shane NON STANDARD CODECS IN FCP

[jordan82] "3.) What is the difference between 23.98 and 24p? Is 23.98 interlaced? "

No. 24P is 29.97fps, and 24PA is 23.98 fps. Here:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/24p_in_FCP_nattress.html



Shane

FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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ArniepixRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 26, 2006 at 4:15:10 am

[Shane Ross] "Only the P2 card can record footage at the NATIVE resolutions."

And only at the 720P settings. At 1080, everything is contained inside of a 29.97 frame rate as it's recorded to disk or card. At 720, you have the option of recording to P2 cards at 59.94, 29.97 or 23.98, but to disks like your Citi Disk it's only 59.94.

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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JeremyGRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 26, 2006 at 10:33:28 pm

If you shot 1080p 24A on P2, you can remove the advanced pulldown upon import if you have FCP 5.1.2.

It's really simple and you will be working @ 23.98 in your timelines.

If you shot 24p Normal, you will have to use Cinema Tools or simply edit in a 29.97 timeline.

If you uncertain of the difference between 24pN and 24pN is, I totally agree with you and it was a bad decision on Panasonic's part to name 24pNative as they did because 24pNormal is more familiar with video people.

In the 720p realm 24pN means 24p native as in you will record in that native frame rate.

In 1080 and 480 formats, 24pN means 24p Normal, and that means your footage will get recorded with pulldown.

That is the very short of it and you might want to do some reading on what 24p means in video.


Jeremy


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jordan82Re: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 27, 2006 at 12:32:10 am

Thanks, everyone, for your help and information. Here is what I have been able to gather based on your responces (and some more questions):

If I shot in 1080/24pN (which I did), then the resulting footage was recorded at 23.98 with pulldown making it 29.97.

Question 1: Do I need Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 in order to remove the pulldown from the 1080 29.97 clips, or can I perform the same operation using FCP 5.0.4 and CinemaTools?

Question 1: If I remove the pulldown, then do I would want to edit at 23.98?

Thanks again!

- Jordan


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Shane RossRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 27, 2006 at 4:50:41 am

1. Dunno. Never had to try. But, you can try. Test test test is my motto. Test before you go into production to make sure you can do what you want to do.

[jordan82] "Question 1: If I remove the pulldown, then do I would want to edit at 23.98?"

That would be question 2, and your question is phrased oddly, but you are asking why would you want to edit 23.98? Well, why are you SHOOTING 23.98? What sort of master are you delivering? What reasons to YOU have for choosing the shooting format you have?





Shane

FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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jordan82Re: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 27, 2006 at 7:38:04 am

Dear Shane,

Thanks very much for your help! As I mentioned in my initial post, I am currently shooting and experimenting with test footage for an upcoming HD feature that is going to deliver in 1080p on BluRay and/or HD-DVD, and I'm attempting to establish the best workflow throughout post. Ultimately, the feature will be shooting on both the HVX200 and the HDX900 cameras in 1080/24pN, most likely to FireStore drives, and I'm attempting to determine the proper way to edit the footage for 1080p delivery, and - if we're lucky - eventual output to 35mm film.

- Jordan


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Shane RossRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 27, 2006 at 7:54:41 am

[jordan82] "Ultimately, the feature will be shooting on both the HVX200 and the HDX900 cameras in 1080/24pN, most likely to FireStore drives"

You cannot record the native formats onto the Firstore drives, so 1080/24pN is out. You can shoot 1080p24, which is recorded at 59.94fps, and you might be able to remove the pulldown to get to 23.98. But, I have not tested any of this, so it is all conjecture.

But, 23.98 would be perfect for DVD.



Shane

FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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JeremyGRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 27, 2006 at 6:17:55 pm

[Shane Ross] "1080/24pN is out"

See this is the problem with the naming structure. There is no native recording in 1080 anyway. What he is saying is 24pNormal (not Native).

Jordan, first of all, why are you going to put yourself through this trouble. Why not just shoot like you have planned and then edit @ 29.97. Even if you edited @ 23.98, the blu ray player is going to add some sort of pulldown to get it to play at either 1080i29.97 or even more probable, 1080i48. Why go 23.98 unless you are absolutely sure that you are going to film?

Using Cinema Tools, you will effectively double your media (as Cinema Tools creates new 23.98 media) and will definitely add a bunch of time in post as you will have to manually select each A frame in each shot and then do the rev telecine on each shot. You will then have to track and manage all of that media, along with the original media and P2 files. If you really want to work @ 23.98, I would suggest shooting 24 Advanced, then removing pulldown is as easy as a click of a button (but you must have FCP 5.1.2 to do this). Also, if you are really going to out to film, I would call whoever you plan on doing the film out with and ask them what they think. Perhaps they would prefer material shot with Normal Pulldown instead of Advanced Pulldown.

Jeremy





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jordan82Re: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 27, 2006 at 7:01:03 pm

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks very much for the tips! Why put myself through this trouble? Good question! I guess that I'm under the impression editing in 23.98 will yield the most flexible deliverable. The producers want to go out to film only if the movie is successful enough to warrant it (i.e. major festivals, etc). Obviously, they


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JeremyGRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 28, 2006 at 8:32:50 pm

[jordan82] "I don't see why I shouldn't just take this route."

I agree.

[jordan82] "Could you be so kind as to let me know how I go about removing the advanced pulldown in 5.1.2 (is it the same item in the tools menu that 5.0.4 uses for DVX100 footage?)."

Nope, it's a little different. IN FCP 5.1.2 the P2 workflow got a major makeover. There's no an import window in which you can preview the footage, mark ins and outs, and batch import. All kinds of cool options. There's a preferences button that you check that says something like remove advanced pulldown on import. It's as easy as that. In earlier versions of FCP this feature was busted, but it seems to be fixed now.



[jordan82] "Would you mind giving me a step by step for how you recommend removing pulldown using Cinema Tools?"

Well, the manual explains it pretty succinctly. Do you know how to identify material with 2:3 pulldown? Basically you have to chose the A frame within the cadence and then do your rev telecine.



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jordan82Re: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 28, 2006 at 9:16:18 pm

Thanks very much for your help. I look forward to the added options in FCP 5.1.2!

With the respect to the footage that I recorded to the CitiDisk, will FCP 5.1.2 be able to remove the pulldown, or can it only remove pulldown from P2 media?

I will never use a CitiDisk again (for a variety of reasons), but I'm wondering if the FireStore FS-100 is much better (for example, can the FS-100 record in the P2 MXF format the way that the P2 cards do?).

I will indeed dive into the CinemaTools manual. My previous experience with CinemaTools has been with film workflows, where I performed the following steps:

1.) import telecine FLEX file into CinemaTools database
2.) generate batch capture list for Final Cut Pro
3.) capture footage in Final Cut Pro
4.) "connect" clips in CinemaTools database to captured video footage
5.) perform batch reverse telecine, resulting in 24p video

I have never used CinemaTools on video-based 23.98 material before, and I have also never had to manually identify the A-frames. So maybe I've been using it incorrectly?

- Jordan


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JeremyGRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 1:03:25 am

[jordan82] "will FCP 5.1.2 be able to remove the pulldown, or can it only remove pulldown from P2 media?"

I've never used it, so I am not sure.


[jordan82] "can the FS-100 record in the P2 MXF format the way that the P2 cards do?)."

Again, I've never used it, so I am not sure. My gut tells me that' it's a little bit different than recording to the cards. Hopefully someone that has used this device can chime in, or perhaps starting another thread is in order.


[jordan82] "So maybe I've been using it incorrectly?"

No, you have just been lucky enough to be a part of a true telecine experience where all of that info is stored in a database. Since you won't have the FLEX you will have to do the conform manually. It's not hard, but it is time consuming.


Jeremy





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Shane RossRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 1:32:33 am

[jordan82] " can the FS-100 record in the P2 MXF format the way that the P2 cards do?"

No, it cannot. It captures in in a different way and you need to tell the unit to PREP FOR P2 before you can import the footage off of it into FCP. If you don't prep for P2, then it won't work.



Shane

FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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jordan82Re: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 1:46:42 am

Thanks for crucial the FS-100 tip! I'm going to be testing one of these units very soon. The bigger question still remains: Can FCP 5.1.2 remove the "advanced pulldown" from 1080 24pA footage recorded to the FireStore?

- Jordan


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Shane RossRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 1:48:30 am

I don't know. Never used a Firestore. Gonna have to wait for someone who has and has shot with the settings you want.



Shane

FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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gary adcockRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 2:56:27 pm

[jordan82] "The bigger question still remains: Can FCP 5.1.2 remove the "advanced pulldown" from 1080 24pA footage recorded to the FireStore?"

yes it can.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Barry GreenRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 3:25:51 pm

[jordan82] "but I'm wondering if the FireStore FS-100 is much better (for example, can the FS-100 record in the P2 MXF format the way that the P2 cards do?)."

Yes the FS-100 should be much better than the CitiDisk. For one thing, it works reliably now, after several firmware updates. And it has lots of features the CitiDisk doesn't. And yes, it does record in the P2 MXF format like the P2 cards do, although you do have to run an "organize P2" menu option before importing into FCP. And with version 3 of the firmware it'll allow direct recording into Quicktime movies, so those who use FCP will be able to bypass the whole importing process and just drag the recorded files directly to the timeline.



-----------------
Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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gary adcockRe: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 3:05:59 pm

[JeremyG]
"[jordan82] "Could you be so kind as to let me know how I go about removing the advanced pulldown in 5.1.2 (is it the same item in the tools menu that 5.0.4 uses for DVX100 footage?)."
Nope, it's a little different."


Actually, it does work the same way but only in FCP 5.1.2 and later.
In the current version of FCP you can use the "remove advanced pulldown" from the tools menu and it will work correctly.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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jordan82Re: 1080 24p FCP workflow questions
by on Dec 29, 2006 at 5:42:54 pm

That's awesome, I can't wait to try it... my 5.1.2 crossgrade is in the mail...

- Jordan


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