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8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm

COW Forums : Panasonic HVX - HPX (P2)

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Chris Baldwin8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 3:48:23 pm

There must be a read write speed issue here with these HVC's. Otherwise does anyone want to make a PCMCIA adapter for a Holograpghic Versitile Card with me?
I have to know what Panasonic is thinking about this type of revolution in memory. Why are they wasting time with a p2 card when these puppies are around the corner?

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050608/105586/

Or maybe there are rumors out there alerady of Panasonic using these? Anyone?



Chris Baldwin
Shoulder High Productions
Media of the World; For the World!
http://www.shoulderhigh.com
newsletters@shoulderhigh.com


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Noah KadnerRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 5:01:25 pm

Those look tasty indeed but they're vaporware until the end of 2006.

Noah


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Vincent RiceRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 5:05:30 pm

Well, when they actually exist perhaps you could ask again then.


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Chris BaldwinRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 5:19:24 pm

Sure these won't be around for awhile, but what do the charts have the P2's getting up to by the summer of 06? 32 gig? still at $1800? even if they are $500 then, I just would like some type of compent from Jan or someone at Panasonic about why they are trying to develop a media that will never be able to compete with the price point that the HVC groups have already established?



Chris Baldwin
Shoulder High Productions
Media of the World; For the World!
http://www.shoulderhigh.com
newsletters@shoulderhigh.com


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PaulRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 6:29:12 pm

I tend to agree, the P2 cards seem like a dead end unless there is some huge leap in the next 6-12 months....


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Noah KadnerRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 6:54:32 pm

Yep- welcome to the wonderful world of electronics. There's always faster, quicker and cheaper right around the corner. Question is, what will be ready for your shoot today?



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Mitch IvesRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 15, 2005 at 1:39:29 am

[Noah Kadner] "Yep- welcome to the wonderful world of electronics. There's always faster, quicker and cheaper right around the corner. Question is, what will be ready for your shoot today?
"


Since the camera doesn't arrive until November (assuming no changes), it would appear that we don't need them today...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Tim KolbRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 15, 2005 at 10:10:33 pm

[Mitch Ives] "[Noah Kadner] "Yep- welcome to the wonderful world of electronics. There's always faster, quicker and cheaper right around the corner. Question is, what will be ready for your shoot today?
"

Since the camera doesn't arrive until November (assuming no changes), it would appear that we don't need them today..."


Maybe so, but I suspect Panasonic would really like to have them today to have them ready for use by November...

The rest of the infrastructure that surrounds these cards takes some design time too, and in the year that Panasonic waits for the next best solid state technology to tweak itself for application, JVC and Sony are selling cameras...today. Even though the DVCPro100 quality is better than HDV, there are those who have a more immediate need and may compromise and go HDV if the small DVCProHD cam was still a year off...

As Noah said, there is always another technology just around the corner...unfortunately most of us have work that needs doing today...





TimK
Kolb Syverson Communications
Creative Cow Host
2004, 2005 NAB Post Production Conference Premiere Pro Technical Chair
Author, "The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro" http://www.focalpress.com
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Mitch IvesRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 15, 2005 at 10:52:10 pm

[Tim Kolb] "As Noah said, there is always another technology just around the corner...unfortunately most of us have work that needs doing today...
"


Yep, and we're using what we already have to do it. No one is asking us to change. I guess that's the advantage to having people buy you not the equipment. We'll look at the JVC and the Panasonic when available... the Sony is out of the running. Now if Panasonic had the 200 with a real lens like the JVC...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Graeme NattressRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 15, 2005 at 11:23:33 pm

But a "real" HD lens costs more than any of these cameras. AFAIK, the Panasonic HVX lens has the same features and controlability at as "real" lens, but it's built in rather than removable.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects for FCP


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Mitch IvesRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 16, 2005 at 3:07:58 am

[Graeme Nattress] "But a "real" HD lens costs more than any of these cameras. "

JVC seems to be able to work with the 16X Fujinon that is affordable. Given the Panny is the also a 1/3 chip and 720p, one wonders why it wouldn't work?

[Graeme Nattress] "AFAIK, the Panasonic HVX lens has the same features and controlability at as "real" lens, but it's built in rather than removable."

Absolutely NOT! The real Fijinon lens on the JVC has a full manual focus with fixed stops on either end and distance scale marks on the barrel. The Fujinon has a smoothly variable zoom (no fixed steps... no jumps). The Fujinon has the 8 pin port for using serious lens controls. It can also accomodate a lens control on the focus. The Panasonic lens has none of this...

In addition, the Fujinion is definitely a better optic.


Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Graeme NattressRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 16, 2005 at 5:41:15 am

Ah but, the lens that comes with the JVC costs what, around $1200? which is awfully cheap for an SD lens, never mind and HD lens. The HVX lens is (quality wise) an unknown quantity at this point. However, it's focus ring may not have end stops, but is fully repeatable (so you can add a follow focus) in it's focussing unlike a Sony-Style wet cabbage lens (you know, like you get on the PD150 etc where the lens feels like the focus is connected to the lens by wet cabbage). The zoom however, is fully manual. In addition, Panasonic provide two ports for camera control so that you can change focus and zoom at the same time. So no, it's not quite as "nice" as a standard removable lens, but it's as fully featured as one.

One thing we do know, is that the lens requirements for a 1/3" CCD HD camera are very high indeed, higher indeed than for a full sized HD camera with 2/3" chips and higher than 35mm film. We are all going to be very interested in seeing if that by Panasonic making the HVX200 lens attached to the camera, they've been able to increase the quality of the optics enough to do justice to the rest of the camera.

My feelings, from carefully viewing the footage of the JVC HD100 is that it's very nice indeed, much nicer than the footage from the Sony HDV cameras, but it still lacks compared to the Varicam footage that I have. It looks slightly softer than the Varicam stuff, even though it's 1280x720 rather than the Varicam's recorded resolution of 960x720, giving rise to me thinking perhaps the lens that comes with the JVC is not the best piece of glass and is perhaps an SD quality lens, rather than an HD quality one. My tests were totally unscientific, but given that normally HD lenses cost a hell of a lot more than what the Fujinon that comes with the HD100 costs, it does make some kind of sense. But it certainly adds to the question of will Panasonic be able to put good enough glass inside the HVX200 to do justice to it's CCD chips and codec? I guess we'll know soon enough though! So I'd certainly doubt your final line that the JVC definately has a better optic, unless you're privvy to more information about that lens, and if so, given the scope of my investigations so far, I'd ber very keen indeed to learn more of it. The one piece of footage I don't have from the JVC is that of a resolution chart, so if you have, or have seen one, that's something I'd dearly like to know more about.

Thanks,

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects for FCP


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Mitch IvesRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 16, 2005 at 3:09:34 pm

[Graeme Nattress] "Ah but, the lens that comes with the JVC costs what, around $1200? which is awfully cheap for an SD lens, never mind and HD lens. "

I'd guess more like $2,500. The other option is a lot higher.


[Graeme Nattress] "In addition, Panasonic provide two ports for camera control so that you can change focus and zoom at the same time. So no, it's not quite as "nice" as a standard removable lens, but it's as fully featured as one."

I have yet to see an electronic option for focus that works well or is properly controllable. As someone with a boatload of experience, manual has always been the preferred choice. Let's hope Panasonic has something new there...

[Graeme Nattress] "My feelings, from carefully viewing the footage of the JVC HD100 is that it's very nice indeed, much nicer than the footage from the Sony HDV cameras, but it still lacks compared to the Varicam footage that I have. It looks slightly softer than the Varicam stuff, even though it's 1280x720 rather than the Varicam's recorded resolution of 960x720, giving rise to me thinking perhaps the lens that comes with the JVC is not the best piece of glass and is perhaps an SD quality lens, rather than an HD quality one. "

Personally, I'd chalk it up to the MPEG2 compression of HDV.


[Graeme Nattress] "But it certainly adds to the question of will Panasonic be able to put good enough glass inside the HVX200 to do justice to it's CCD chips and codec? I guess we'll know soon enough though!

Yes, the million dollar question.

[Graeme Nattress] "So I'd certainly doubt your final line that the JVC definately has a better optic, unless you're privvy to more information about that lens, and if so, given the scope of my investigations so far, I'd ber very keen indeed to learn more of it. "

I don't. The pro-sumer built lenses of thes 1/3 cameras (of which the HVX is included) have never come close to the quality of the ones from Canon and Fujinon. it takes a lot more than a niece piece of glass to make a functioning video lens.



Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Graeme NattressRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 16, 2005 at 3:44:53 pm

Even if the lens is the is the full price of the camera, it's extraordinaryly cheap for an HD lens, even if it is 1/3". Indeed I do prefer a manual lens - they're just so nice and easy to control that you don't have to worry about them, however, I am reliably informed that the electronic lens on the DVX100, and the HVX200 is fully repeatable in it's operation, just that it lacks lens stops, doesn't feel like wet cabbage, and puts the markings in the viewfinder instead. Functionality-wise, it's got what it needs, just lacks the precise form-factor we're used to. I guess that Panasonic will be producing a P2 based Varicam with proper lens options and 2/3" chips next year sometime.

Totally agree with your "million dollar question". Panasonic have been very tight lipped about the performance of the HVX200, and it's going to be very, very interesting what they manage to do. Cameras as compromised, and chips especially factor in price, resolution, noise, dynamic range and more, so getting the best balance is not a trivial task. If they can pull off a great balance with glass infront that's good enough to not limit the camera even in 1080p, then we're laughing. If they don't, well, we'd better start saving....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects for FCP


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Brian SaenzDeViteriRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 9:14:21 pm

I read about these things in a PC magazine a few months back. The main drawback that I remember reading was that aren't expected to have fast speeds (something that the P2 cards will capable of), nor are they expected to have the reliability (something else that the P2 card will be capable of, hopefully).

I'm still looking to find the "Sandisk" or other manufacturer version of P2 cards. Look at Sony Memory Sticks... Sandisk makes the same speeds and faster speeds at a pretty decent price drop compared to the Sony brand versions. I'd expect some tape manufacturers (ie, Fuji) to come out with some P2 media cards that are fractions of the price and possibly even greater capacity. Though, we all know this probably will not happen right away. But give it 2-3 months and someone will start making them.



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JP DriscollRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 10:42:41 pm

Isn't the holographic media recorded in a translusent gell? That doesn't sound very reliable to me. It also sounds like something that would not write properly with one good bump. And how will temperature affect it? If it's real cold (-30F is a good winter's day here in Fargo.) does the gell get thicker thus making it harder for the lasers to write properly? Sounds risky. I'll stick with tried and true technology for a few years until all the "what if's" are answered. At least SD cards are proven to handle the elements.



JP Driscoll

WDAY TV
Fargo, ND

"Television! Teacher, mother, secret lover." ~Homer Simpson


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NICK BRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 11:11:45 pm

It would not be easy to put the drive inside the camera i suspect,

You have to trust that Panasonic are using P2 because they genuinely believe that it is the best way to record data in the camera they are not trying to rob you of money on a P2 scam !


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Barry GreenRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 13, 2005 at 11:42:05 pm

If someone wants to make a firewire-streaming version of the holographic drive, the Panasonic camera will most definitely work with it. The holographic system may not be rugged enough or reliable enough for field use, but it could be an excellent tiny-cost way to archive footage! An hour of footage at 720/24p archived on a $1 gel (or whatever it is...) heck, that'd make shooting P2 *cheaper* than shooting HDV...

-----------------
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Brian SaenzDeViteriRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 14, 2005 at 12:17:29 pm

that's a really good idea... they are small enough too, so they'd be perfect for archiving if they are reliable. any price guestimates at how much the drives will run? will they be external devices? I'm thinking that I could use a few of these to hand to a client after a shoot with all the footage, like many of them want a tape at the end of the day, instead hand them a card or two. It's an interesting scenario for data management and distribution, but I will not use it for acquisition.


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nate fordRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 14, 2005 at 5:06:34 pm

the press release says that they will be trying to release a read/write device for under 1 million yen. based on the current exchange rate, that means that a read/writer will be somewhere below $9,141.60


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Brian SaenzDeViteriRe: 8gigs for $1800 vs. 30 for $1...hmm
by on Jun 14, 2005 at 6:44:10 pm

Nevermind... I'm going to be waiting on that one for a long time. But the "blanks" are only $1.00 USA dollars each? It's worth considering (maybe).


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