ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire
by Mike Gilligan
on
Sep 12, 2008 at 1:49:58 am
I'm starting a new project and I have a Sony M10U going thru the Convergent HD Connect SI, into an AJA iO box, then into a 3.0Ghz Mac Pro 8-core with a 4 Tb Cal Digit raid array, and FCP Studio 2.
In order to get machine control and time code, I just today started using the Convergent HD Connect SI. It runs things,but it may take 2 minutes for it to cue up and start rolling when I'm capturing. Very disappointing.
How about an alternative? Capturing everything in HDV via firewire directly into the Mac and setting the effects rendering to Pro Res? Does anyone recommend the HDV approach as opposed to the iO box and ProRes with the Convergent HD Connect SI sloooow machine control?
At this point the HDV thing looks better and better. Am I wrong?
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Oct 10, 2008 at 5:28:32 pm
Hi,
The Convergent didn't control our M10U deck so:
we got a Sony HVR-1500A (with the SDI input.)
and we have:
A Mac Pro 3.0 GHSz Quad Core Intel...etc.
Memory: 8 GB
Internal Storage:
System Drives:
1 TB
Storage Drives:
CalDigit HDOne 4 TB Raid 5
AJA iO HD
This is the thrill-a-minute history:
9/22... Mac was crashing when I rendered anything, or changed speed.
9/22.. Installed newest software update for HDOne. (which had been available just 4 day s earlier.) Crashing stopped.
9/22... Installed 6.0.1 update from AJA.
9/23...HVR-1500A would not eject ( Intermittent) and got error message: 20-018.
9/23... Brought it in to B&H exchanged for HVR-1500A #2
9/26 .. (Friday)...The new deck could not go to the que up time code or "Go to in" time code. Kept getting error messages: "can't find t.c."
9/29 (Monday)...Brought it in to Sony. They tested it and something indeed was wrong with the deck's
ability to read time code.
Jewish Holiday...
10/02... Exchanged for HVR-1500A #3.
10/02... Problems with the AJA. It kept reverting to 720P even if the format was selected as
1080i. Called and they sent a new one.
10/04... Received new AJA.
10/04... Same problems. The deck cannot find the time code. (I get error message: "Can't find the time
code". I was going thru the AJA and using RS422. Got tech people to go over our system. They pretty much said it was the HDV long GOP.
I have to get to work on a time sensitive long form doc, so I just bypassed the AJA, and down-converted from the HVR-1500A via firewire in to the Mac and I get 98% perfect machine control.My fear is being a couple of months into our project and we suddenly get a blind alley surprise. (Those terrible words: "It won't do that!")
It's a shame. ProRes is beautiful. Maybe some day. Any ideas?
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Michael Palmer on Oct 10, 2008 at 5:58:43 pm
The 1500a is a much better choice but getting deck control from the M10 would have been easy too, you could have just connected the FW cable directly from the deck to the Mac and set the device control to DV .and reset the ilink conv to ON. This would have solved your issue. Again you have a much better deck but I believe you could have made the little deck work.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Oct 11, 2008 at 4:06:01 am
Hi, thanks Michael,
But I was under the allusion that we could edit everything going from HDV to ProRes, do a master tape in high definition and then do a down converted master tape to DV.
The HVR-1500A deck was for Hi Def. We had to switch to SD because we couldn't get deck control with HDV via AJA to ProRes. The entire investment was a wash. We could have kept our G5 computer and the M10U and continued to do our shows in DV25.
We did do a PBS show in SD and then recaptured everything in DVCPro HD. It worked, but I had to re-synch every clip in the show. Not a great way to spend time.
We thought that with all the zippy hardware this would allow us to work in ProRes. Not so.
Ether we are doing something wrong, or the stuff is vaporware.
What do you think?
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mark Going on Oct 15, 2008 at 6:43:32 pm
Did you get this solved?
I just got a new Mac and Aja io and will need to get my hdv footage into the io and was hoping one of the convergent boxes would make it easy to go from 1394 out of my camera to HD-SDI into the io into ProRes.
Thanks
Mark
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Tim Kolb on Oct 20, 2008 at 1:36:10 pm
I'm not primarily a Mac/FCP user, but if it were me, I'd bring the HDV in native (via FW) and edit it on an uncompressed timeline (NOT a Pro Res timeline) so no additional recompression takes place while cutting...
Then I'd output a Pro Res version...or simply master out through the AJA from your uncompressed timeline.
The HDV ingested footage will take FAR less space than even Pro Res...
Your timecode will be accurate...
The uncompressed timeline will handle your footage with as little degradation as possible.
The issue with RS422 deck control with any long GOP format is often shuttling backwards...when the frames are read in reverse, not all frames read...shuttle backwards on a DVD to see what I mean. It is possible to pick a frame that only exists in forward motion, and the deck can't pick it up in reverse shuttle...no such frame, deck shrugs figurative shoulders.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Oct 22, 2008 at 2:39:28 am
Thanks Tim,
I have read positive things about editing in HDV. When I tried it before, I was using an M10U deck and it was squirrelly at best, but I now have an HDV 1500A so this may make a difference. Also, when I've talked to a couple of people about editing in HDV, one said fine and the other said don't do it.
Have you edited in HDV and what do you think of the pros and cons?
The other things I've read is to get out of HDV as soon as possible and i like the Pro Res color depth. However, this is, of course, pointless if I don't have machine control. I love what you said about great machine control. For the time being, I had to get to work on a long form doc, so I'm capturing in DV Cam via firewire and things are going smoothly.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Tim Kolb on Oct 22, 2008 at 3:14:00 am
As far as capture goes...HDV is captured via that same FW connection and takes the exact same amount of space...25Mb/s. I'm not sure why you wouldn't simply capture the HDV this way.
ProRes is great...but it is still compression. If you convert on ingest to ProRes, you'll have FAR bigger files, and the image doesn't improve, it gets transcoded, and following up one kind of compression with another kind, even if it's high quality, isn't gaining you anything.
By ingesting small HDV files...and editing them on an uncompressed timeline, you'll re-apply no compression until you're done and want to master it out...and then you'll be preforming the first transcode on the footage...post-edit. If you transcode on ingest, that's once, then you transcode after edit for BluRay or DVD, that's two transcodes.
DVcam is taking up the same space as the HDV would...and if the FW works, I'm not sure why you would work this way...even if you are attempting to master out to SD, editing in HD over DV will give you a better quality product, even after you downconvert after editing.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Dec 14, 2008 at 11:17:27 pm
Hi,
Regards deck control: I have just now been able to do tests with & with out the AJA VTR Exchange.
I have an HD 1500 A, an AJA iO HD, and I'm using FCP & CalDigit 4 TB drives.
I was doing "Go to In point"
HDV with the AJA VTR Exchange and RS 422:
45 tests total, 9 got lost. (about half were forward searches and half reverse. (No difference with that)
HDV downconverting to DVCam (with AJA VTR Exchange& RS 422:
37 total, and 4 got lost.
I don't know what this means. It seems when I bypass FCP I get slightly fewer errors as when capturing via FW directly into FCP. I have plenty of disk space and a nice deck, but I don't think I will ever use a long GOP format again. I long for the accuracy of Beta SP.
What do you think?
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Tim Kolb on Dec 15, 2008 at 1:59:58 pm
Are you keying in these timecodes directly or searching the tape, setting the in point and shuttling away for the deck to search it?
What are the timecodes that aren't working?
You do know that drop frame timecode (29.97fps USA) doesn't have certain numbers right?
Frames XX:XX:XX:00 and XX:XX:XX:01 don't exist at the beginning of any minute not divisible by 10. Searching for those will likely confuse any VTR in those circumstances.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Dec 16, 2008 at 6:45:05 pm
Hi,
I didn't keep track of the tc numbers, but I ran the tape to a certain place, stopped it and then punched in that tc, then ran ahead or behind that spot and punched "go to in." A few times they were one frame off, but 99% of the time they were several frames off when they got lost.
Since the rate of errors were about the same when FCP was controlling things or when FCP was being bypassed, and the AJA VTR Exchange was doing the controlling, I assume it is either the nature of the HDV format, or the HVR 1500a deck. Right?
I didn't know your information below:(Thank you.)
Frames XX:XX:XX:00 and XX:XX:XX:01 don't exist at the beginning of any minute not divisible by 10. Searching for those will likely confuse any VTR in those circumstances.
I always wondered why, when setting the TC preset, it always defaulted to 00:58:0002 and wouldn't start at 00 frames.
But punching in TC's the way I did, wouldn't make this an issue would it?
Thanks much for your help.
PS: wouldn't capturing in ProRes give a much better color depth?
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Tim Kolb on Dec 16, 2008 at 7:09:19 pm
You would certainly get runnability benefits from using an I-frame codec and benefit from working in a 10 bit environment for effects and particularly color correction, but that's because you are now 'creating' footage as a result of the color adjustment or effect. For general editing, capturing in Pro Res won't make your footage visually improve...it's as good as it will get.
I happen to capture complete tapes from HDV and I don't run into a tape search issue, so I don't really know if this is a deck issue or not. I would think I'd have heard a lot more complaints over the years that HDV has been on the market if the format was simply unsearchable...
I have the HD Connect LE and I know it worked going into a PC the last time I used it...but that was some time ago.
I realize now that batch capturing has big problems and that I should "Capture Now" and do the whole tape. The big problem is, that I have to Edit to Tape, starting the program at 1:00:00:00, and it won't do this. It's usually off by several frames.
I think the moral of the story is: DON'T INVEST IN HDV, IT LOOKS NICE, BUT POST PRODUCTION IS LIKE SHOVING FIRE ANTS UP YOUR NOSE.
That may be a little harsh, but here's an additional problem: we were shooting for another production company, and when they tried to sell their pilot, some buyers wouldn't accept HDV, or will only accept a small percentage of footage shot in HDV. That seems a little nuts, but it's true.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Tim Kolb on Dec 23, 2008 at 7:27:07 pm
[Mike Gilligan]"I realize now that batch capturing has big problems and that I should "Capture Now" and do the whole tape. The big problem is, that I have to Edit to Tape, starting the program at 1:00:00:00, and it won't do this. It's usually off by several frames."
Well...keep in mind that HDV is not accepted by any television network that i know of as a master...it's an acquisition format. And even as an acquisition format, many networks have very stringent limitations on the amount of footage in any given program that can be acquired on HDV, though I know there are some exceptions (using a Varicam on "Deadliest Catch" would be impossible logistically and financially I suspect.)
Most simply run it all in (that's what I do) and cut it up...then master to whatever the output medium is...SD BetaSP, HDcam, DVCProHD, etc, etc.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Dec 24, 2008 at 3:44:20 am
HI,
I'm not talking about an HDV master. These are HDCAM masters with HDV material included. I wasn't very clear about that.
HDV allowed us to get two cameras for the price of one, so what am I complaining about. It's just that I was a little surprised that Sony says that HDV may or may not go to a predetermined time code.
(I'm using their HVR-1500 A deck, so I can't upgrade the deck as far as I know.)
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Oct 21, 2008 at 8:08:32 pm
Hi,
Re: deck control:
I tried the Convergent HD -Connect SI HDV to HD/SDI Converter from an M10U via AJA iO, and it didn"t work.(It was way off, took lots of time queuing up and it got lost.) Bob Zellin sent me a post that said you couldn't convert the cheaper decks to an HVR-1500 by investing in a $795.00 converter.
However, I bought an HVR-1500A and it still gets lost and constantly tells me "can't find time code."
After a couple of months horsing around, I had to get a long form job done, so I'm doing everything in SD and going into the MacPro by firewire. This works.
I think there are big issues with the long GOP of HDV. and there may be issues with the FCP software.
For me, it was like brushing my teeth with a pitch fork. (Sorry about that, I couldn't resist.)
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Rafael Amador on Oct 28, 2008 at 11:31:49 am
Hi Mike,
If you are working with FC, capture HDV via FW and cut in a HDV time-line.
When you are ready to export your master, drop the "Nattress Chroma Smooth/Sharp 420" filter.
Change your sequence codec to Prores and set "Render all YUV material in High Precision YUV".
I work like that with the EX-1 footage and looks great.
rafael
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Dec 24, 2008 at 3:51:54 am
Rafael,
Do you have long render times with an HDV timeline? For instance, if you do a garbage matte, or color correcting, etc.?
We had a G-5 and I thought it was on the slow side, with ProRes, but now we have an 8-core Mac, which seems pretty fast, but I haven't tried an HDV timeline.
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Rafael Amador on Dec 24, 2008 at 5:06:25 am
Hi Mike,
HDV and XDCAM are great for acquisition but rendering back to those formats complicates the thing because their GOP structure.
The Point is cutting in HDV but rendering in ProRess.
This in a wonderful option only available when working with HDV or EX-1 footage.
In your Sequence Setting> Render Control> Codec, instead of "Same than Sequence Codec" select ProRess.
Cheers,
Rafael
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Dec 15, 2008 at 12:53:02 am
Hi,
I have been using AJA VTR Exchange. There seems to be no difference between the number of errors between using AJA VTR Exchange and capturing directly into FCP via FW, or going thru the AJA iO HD into FCP. They all get lost about the same number of times.
I'm reluctant to go to Sony's EX camera because it has a long GOP and that probably means unreliable machine control.
I have been spoiled, because I used Beta SP for so long, and it was always accurate.
The best,
Re: ProRes via Convergent HD,and AJA, or Capturing HDV via Firewire by Mike Gilligan on Dec 27, 2008 at 7:42:59 pm
Hey Michael,
This may be an ignorant question, but how do you do a master tape with the EX? Can you Edit-to-Tape? If so, do you need machine control?
This has been a problem with us down converting (when capturing,) and mastering in DVCam. It won't start the program at 1:00:00:00. It often starts several frames off.
Our old faithful DSR-1500 was right on the money. I loved it, but since we got our new stuff, (HVR-1500A and the MacPro, etc.) it's got a mind of it's own. We thought that by bankrupting our little production company, things would be more stable. Not so.
