Is G5 dual 2 capable of supporting 2 PCI FW800 cards for striping 2 G-Raids?
by Jim L
on
Oct 9, 2005 at 1:23:13 am
We're about to start capturing DVC PRO HD footage via a 1200A deck to G-raids on a G5 Dual 2 (older PCI-X version) with 2.5 GB ram, editing on FCP 5 with TIGER. We know the recommended configuration is to run the G-raids from a PCI FW800 card and capture from the 1200A through the G5's internal FW400 bus. In the past, we've succesffuly daisy-chained several G-raids off the same FW800 card (in slot 2). Now we're experimenting with adding a second PCI FW800 card in slot 3 in an attempt to stripe two G-raids for even better speeds. But drives connected to card 3 don't seem to mount. Is there some kind of bus limitation connecting slots 2 and 3 that makes them only able to use one slot for extra FW800 cards? FYI, slot 1 is currently occupied by a Decklink Extreme card, not necessary for this project, but we'd like to leave it installed if possible. Ultimately, the question becomes, is it possible to capture DVCPRO HD material via a 1200A deck to G-raids that are striped together for better speed rather than simply daisy chaining them? If so, what should the slot configuration be for the FW800 PCI cards? Many thanks. Jim
Re: Is G5 dual 2 capable of supporting 2 PCI FW800 cards for striping 2 G-Raids? by Jim L on Oct 9, 2005 at 6:51:41 am
One clarification: Forgot that Apple numbers its G5 slots bottom to top, not top to bottom. In slot 1 we have the AGP graphics card. Slots 2 and 3 (PCI-X 100 Mhz) each hold a PCI FW800 card (both obtained from G-tech.) Slot 4 (top slot, 133 Mhz PCI-X) holds the Decklink Extreme. Still the same problem as mentioned earlier We can't seem to get both G-raid cards in slots 2 and 3 to mount drives. We currently have two G-raids daisy-chained on the slot 3 card (working perfectly) but would like to split them apart, one on slot 2 and one on slot 3, for striping, but cannot ... leading us to believe that slots 2 and 3 must run off the same bus. Any solutions? Thanks again. Jim
Re: Is G5 dual 2 capable of supporting 2 PCI FW800 cards for striping 2 G-Raids? by Jim L on Oct 11, 2005 at 5:38:44 pm
Thanks Tom.
That would definitely explain it. Assuming slot 4 is on a separate bus, I guess that means the Decklink Extreme has to go if we want to try to stripe 2 G-raids. These G-5's are great, but I sure wish they had more expansion slots. Jim
Re: possible idea? by Jim L on Oct 14, 2005 at 7:38:01 pm
Late last year we edited a 30 minute program shot on Beta SP, captured via a Decklink Extreme card using the Blackmagic 10-bit codec, using FCP 4.5 on a G5 Dual 2 with 2.5 GB ram. Although the specs on the G-tech site state you should only be able to run 1 stream of 10-bit SD, we experienced better results. often being able to play back two streams or more. This performance was obtained using only one 500 GB g-raid on the built-in G-5 FW800 bus. By adding a PCI FW card and striping two drives between two separate buses, you should be able to obtain at least 2 streams and probably more. The best source for information on this is Nick at G-raid, who often contributes answers to this forum and is quite reliable at returning phone calls.
That 30 minute program (for commercial broadcast) was exported as a 10-bit Quicktime movie, totaling 43 GB in size, then printed back to BETA SP as a broadcast master and looked terrific. FYI, the only reason we opted to capture at 10-bit had to do with several compositing sequences we wanted to make sure would render cleanly and did. For my money, if budgets do not permit the purchase of Xraids, and the speeds of G-raids are sufficient for your needs, they simply cannot be beat. At several post houses in LA specializing in Final Cut Finishing, you see G-raids in every edit bay. As mentioned in the start of this thread, we are cutting our first major Varicam HD project using all G-raids, which thanks to the DVCPRO HD codecs, and shooting at 720 24P, provide even bettter performance (several streams per bus) than 10-bit SD. Our experience in moving away from AVID to FCP (we have a hundred thousand dollar Media Composer purchased in the mid nineties now worth about a buck fifty gathering dust in storage and a dozen 9-gig IS9 drives purchased at 3 grand each now being used as doorstops) is to stay with the Apple/Panasonic/G-Tech workflow and you end up with an almost unbelievable combination of great performance, price and service. Although we currently have the Blackmagic Extreme card still in place, we will probably be swapping it to the Kona LH to be able to capture and output both SD and HD reliablly, using only one slot.
Good luck. Jim
Re: possible idea? by Borjis on Oct 14, 2005 at 10:21:32 pm
Wow thanks for all that info Jim!
We're in the same boat here. we've got a mid-90's Avid Media Compuser (nubus) thats worthless and has random mounting issues on the B Drives which we spent a fortune on and seldom if ever use for offline.
Then we've got a somewhat worthless Discreet smoke* 3.6.1 that we only use for editing and inserting to our Digibeta deck. It's a good system if your into the "smoke way of doing things" but getting graphics in and out of it proficiently is something we can't do so FCP is definitely in our future.
I make the purchase decisions and FCP with G-Raid is where we are headed.
And like you said, the price, performance cannot be beat.
Re: possible idea? by Jim L on Oct 14, 2005 at 11:01:03 pm
David is absolutely correct. The G-SATA's should be considered. We opted to stay with the G-raids as they can be carried and plugged into any G5 with a FW800 port for whatever purpose, compositing, duplicating drives for multiple VFX editors, changing G5's if you have a crash, whatever. If you happen to have a G4 Powerbook with a FW800 connection, you can also carry the small G-raid in your bag and edit on the road. Once the material is captured, you can edit quite nicely on a slower machine like a powerbook (save the rendering of course for when you're back on the G5.)
SATA definitely looks to be the wave of the future, but each machine that uses it must be equipped with a SATA card with the appropriate number of ports for the drives in your SATA raid. Obviously if you're striping your G-raids, the G5's would need to have at least one PCI FW800 card in addition to the machine's internal bus. One other note to consider. Daisy-chaining G-raids works remarkably well and hardly affects the drive performance. If you already have more than one G-raid, you might want to test your system speed with a simple daisy-chain setup. You may not even need to stripe. Decisions decisions ..... Jim
Re: possible idea? SATA Question David or Jim or both! by Borjis on Oct 14, 2005 at 11:45:07 pm
Do the G-SATA's still perform the same as the G-Raids
as they fill up? It was my understanding that the performance
hit occurs as they get near capacity.
Are either of you doing 10-bit SD uncompressed with G-SATA?
How many realtime streams are you achieving?
I would like to future proof for sure so if G-SATA is
a better way to go, I'll do it of course.
Re: possible idea? SATA Question David or Jim or both! by David Roth Weiss on Oct 15, 2005 at 12:02:30 am
I'm going to do the definitive test tonight on non-raid SATA tonight. In all honesty, I've not had to stripe them -- I've ben able to do 4 layers of HDV, and three layers of 8-bit uncompressed, all without striping. I'll see what happens with 10-bit now...
Re: Any news on 10-bit test David? by David Roth Weiss on Oct 19, 2005 at 4:39:24 pm
Okay Chris, here's what my test yielded on a single SATA drive... 1 stream of 10-bit plays just fine, including unrendered transitions and even a graphics layer with text, thrown on top for good measure. However, 2 streams of 10-bit video with opacity changes on one or both layers will drop frames. That's as far as I've gotten so far. I suspect that even Firewire 800 would not be able to play a single layer of 10-bit video without dropping frames, but I've not tested that theory. Does that help at all???
Re: possible idea? by Jim L on Oct 20, 2005 at 4:26:58 am
The one thing we've learned in all of our research and experience is that there are no absolutes. The number of streams a particular drive can handle depends on many elements: computer speed, ram, other programs running in background, quality of cables, types of efx transitions and filters being used on the timeline, FCP settings, the cycle of the moon, humidity, etc etc etc. In the end it really boils down to 3 questions. How much can you spend? Is the drive used reliably by professionals on a daily basis? And how's the tech support? If money is no object, it's a no-brainer. I have yet to meet anyone who has anything but praise for the speed and reliability of Xraids. When it comes to the lower end where it's FW800 vs. SATA, call the pro post houses and find out what they use in THEIR bays. (Make sure it's not a post house that manufactures their own brand.) When I walk into a post facility that does work on every budget level and I see a G-raid in every single bay (in addition of course to their fibre-channeled Xraids), that says a lot. RELIABILITY AND SUPPORT IS EVERYTHING! We never consider a major purchase before making a trial support call. If we get voice-mail saying our call will be returned as soon as possible, or only an email option, that company drops from the list. If a real human being answers the phone and transfers us immediately to a technically proficient guru, they move to the top of the list. There are so few companies like that out there, when you find one, and their product works well, you've hit gold. G-Technology is one of those companies. We have no affiliation with them other than owning 4 of their G-raids, 2 500 GB and 2 1 TB. Every one has been rock solid. For what it's worth, FW800 on a G-raid does indeed deliver AT LEAST one stream of 10-bit SD. We've done it repeatedly . If I were in a quandary of FW800 vs SATA, I'd call or email Nick at G-Technology and get his input. He really knows those drives. Consider yourself lucky that G-TECH makes both, so you know they're quality products. I actually think G-TECH has even recently come out with a drive with both FW800 and SATA connections on the same chassis. I have no idea how that kind of dual capability would affect speeds, but Nick would know. Good luck. It's a jungle out there. But we've reached a point (after literally months of research and 20 years of shooting, editing and producing for prime time network and cable broadcast) of buying only Apple, G-Tech and Panasonic digital products. (Plus Apple-certified products if they don't make what we need, like AJA and Blackmagic.) The stuff just plain works. Now we don't even waste our time looking at anything else. (Yes, I never thought I'd see the day, but Sony is off our list. If we had a client that demanded we use a CineAlta instead of a Varicam, we wouldn't hesitate to rent one. But we'd also question, why not Varicam? In our opinion, it looks just as good if not better, and the whole workflow thanks to Apple and Panasonic is so much more affordable. Take care. Jim
