Following Avid's November 13, 2007 lead, Apple officially opted out of NAB 2008 on February 7, 2008. What are the ramifications of this laterst news on the future of NAB and what does it likely portend for the industry's largest gathering? In this editorial, the COW's Ron Lindeboom explores some of the trends and factors that are affecting decisionmakers and the growing move away from expensive trade shows.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 14, 2008 at 9:58:22 pm
"The argument that this stuff requires hands-on facetime is simply becoming increasingly irrelevant in the Day of the Internet."
I disagree. There have been a number of studies of trade shows and the Number One thing people remember even months after a show is: A Person.
That was over and above presentations, pitches, displays, etc.
There are some things trade shows do better than the internet. Do not count out the human factor.
As to the need of 'hands-on' tactile experience - I can think of dozens of product categories in this business that do require that experience: camera support, lighting, grip, cases, remote anything, monitors, etc, etc. Having them all under one roof is more than convenient.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 14, 2008 at 10:54:42 pm
I couldn't agree more, Raymond. And if you are willing to pay a few hundred thousand each for influencing prospects this way, have at it.
I just found out today that Apple's direct costs for attending NAB is over $15 million. I know that small companies I know are close to a half million per, and so the cost per new sale -- let's be real, most old customers will keep buying if you do not betray their trust -- and so the cost PER NEW SALE is the yardstick that many of these companies are now looking at.
You are free to disagree but you are not the one spending the money. And if you use Final Cut and are willing to have $15 million put against it just so you can feel good for a bit, then you are basing your decisions on unsound business opinions, not principles.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 14, 2008 at 11:41:22 pm
'You are free to disagree but you are not the one spending the money.'
In the end, I am the one spending the money as a new customer. Your argument against trade shows is not a new one. I've heard them before when I was in the industry.
Trade shows can do many things that the internet cannot, and never will, be able to do. I tried to point those things out in my previous post.
And lest we forget, many exhibitors are there for the benefit of their dealers and to get new dealers. They are not counting on sales AT the show. For them, it's money well spent.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 12:01:39 am
[Randall Raymond]"In the end, I am the one spending the money as a new customer."
Wow, I had no idea that you were going to say that.
:o)
But you are in fact NOT the one spending a dime for any of it, as you aren't using Final Cut last I looked. You also do not use Macs from reading your posts around the COW. So I highly doubt that Apple press events and Apple user gatherings have much genuine interest for you.
And arguing that you are a prospect that Apple is losing access to is stretching reality a bit much, as you come here everyday and I have little doubt that you can learn far more here about Final Cut (were you really interested), than you could at one of Apple's highly scripted and rehearsed demos at NAB.
Considering that Apple tech support itself refers users with difficult issues that they can't solve, here to the COW in hopes of getting an answer, I have to smile that NAB is so "indespensible."
As I said in my article, most of the dealers I talk to -- and I talk to many all the time -- tell me that they go to NAB because they use co-op advertising money (a rebate sum based on a percentage of the product bought by the dealer) to attend and so if they carry enough products, the money isn't coming out of their pocket.
But these same dealers tell me that if it all came out of their pocket, they couldn't afford to be there.
$15 million is a lot of money and would mean that Apple would have to do a LOT of new business to justify that kind of expense.
Apple has little left to prove to anyone with Final Cut Studio. You are either going to buy it or you aren't -- and likely most of those attending already own it. (It isn't "prospects" that were the ones running down the aisles at show open last year, it was the true believers. And they'd buy the Next Big Thing whether or not Apple was at NAB.)
As I said, having $15 million slammed against a product to have to recoup could mean radical changes in the way that a product grows and is supported -- especially when the massive sales growth curve starts to fall off.
Business is business. Fan clubs are fan clubs. There is a time when the two shall meet. Other times, they no longer share goals and objectives that are as mutually synergistic.
But as I said elsewhere, Avid and Apple may be the first two companies to abandon this highly overpriced and overrated shindig, but they surely will not be the last. Mark my words, in a few years NAB will be back to its single building size and the halcyon days of the multimedia revolution will be a chapter from its past.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Steve Wargo on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:22:10 am
[Randall Raymond]" Your argument against trade shows is not a new one."
It's not Trade Sows in general but NAB in particular. After 15 straight years of attending, I didn't go the last two years and I realized then that I didn't really miss anything. To go to NAB, I leave on Saturday, fly in, stay in an overpriced hotel, rent a car and spend money. I like to see the latest gadgets and usually have a $5k budget for little crap. In '05, we bought Ultra for $1100 and have never opened the box.
There are some things that you need to see in person: Cameras, lighting and grip, sound gear, and all the gadgets that I just spoke about.
Panasonic has local shows at their Phoenix dealers and as for Sony, I can jet to BandPro and back in the same day for $120. While I'm there, it's Matthews Grip, FilmTools, and others in the same day. I lose one day of work and if I have any type of brain matter at all, I'll find a job to do while I'm there, make it a 2 day trip and bring home a couple grand to boot.
As for software companies, almost everyone has a trial version and with the COW at our fingertips, we have an unbiased panel to keep us from making foolish, uneducated decisions. The level headed members far out weigh the silly fanboys. And a bunch of them have dropped out of sight, haven't they?
I do disagree with Ron in one area. NAB will lose the South Hall but they will keep the North and Central Halls. NAB is much like SONY, in that, if they think that you need them, they will take every dime they can. Remember when we had to pay $30 for a 30 minute BetaSP tape and we also had to pay to attend NAB? And the guys from JVC would buy you lunch.
I think that the Avid and Apple folks should court the buyers by offering them trips to their place to demo gear based on a sale. Discreet used to have people come to Santa Monica to make the "Final" decision. And when we sold Discreet products at NAB, we had an *Edit Suite downstairs at the Sands for private demos. We had people from several film production companies including Lucas Films, (and Danny Devito) sit in quiet, secluded, comfortable suites while we wowed them with the latest. And it could have been any software show, not necessarily NAB. Apple would be better served at DV Expo, WEVA, and the Gov't Video events.
And, when we went to NAB '05, we missed on a simple job that would have net about $6k and a long term client. OUCH!
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!
Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 15, 2008 at 6:10:28 am
[Steve Wargo]"After 15 straight years of attending, I didn't go the last two years and I realized then that I didn't really miss anything."
You went for all those years because the digital video revolution was exciting beyond your fondest dreams. Million dollar suites down to Yugo prices and doing more. That's why you went. So the dust has settled - maybe the revolution is over, maybe not - but I hope you are not blaming the NAB for providing the venue, are you?
Touch me! Feel me! Buy me! by Steve Wargo on Feb 16, 2008 at 8:03:38 am
[Randall Raymond]"Million dollar suites down to Yugo prices and doing more. That's why you went. So the dust has settled - maybe the revolution is over, maybe not - but I hope you are not blaming the NAB for providing the venue, are you?"
Back then, there was only one way to see everything in one place and that was NAB. Now, with high speed Internet, you can do everything but actually touch the goods. And remember, we're men (at least some of us are) and we need to touch things. A few years ago, when we were remodeling our kitchen, we went shopping for the usual stuff, cabinets, a big honkin' sink and granite countertops. Afterward, when showing off the new kitchen, the wife told someone that I had to fondle everything. I couldn't buy a nail (or get married) without touching it first Well, she's right. Men are touchers and women can window shop.
I love to feel finished, processed aluminum, the protein coating on lenses, the rough, black paint on barndoors, cables and connectors, steadicams, monitors, switcher levers, everything! Except lightbulbs, that is.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Tim Wilson on Feb 14, 2008 at 11:43:50 pm
I'll add that millions of buying decisions by pros in our industry have been made without going to tradeshows. They're made in the much closer contact provided by road shows, and in the MUCH closer contact provided by VARs, many of whom will provide eval units for the asking.
There's absolutely not one single thing about a purchasing decision at a tradeshow that can't happen more efficiently and effectively somewhere else.
Not in theory. In reality.
Somebody is going to argue that I'm wrong, that shows are essential, etc. etc. But I see that as theory only, not verified in anything beyond individual experience. I went to all my NABs AFTER I spent more on my equipment than I did on my house, and I lived to tell the tale...as, again, millions of others have.
I'll go farther than Ron did...as I usually do...which is why his are the bylines on such articles. I believe that it's the responsibility of every customer to demand that their favorite vendors NOT have booths at tradeshows.
Sure, go to make deals as Avid and Apple will, but which is better for you as an FCP customer -- better for the entire FCP community today and its future growth: the development team creating artificial deadlines and demos, or spending those million person hours actually working on the product?
A no-brainer. Staying home is best for the product. Best for the company. Best for its customers, all of whom have a multitude of better ways -- ALL of them are better -- to find out the details of a product.
Besides, that $15 million to go to NAB comes out of YOUR POCKET. Why on earth would you want Apple to spend your money like that? Or the proportionally MUCH larger expenditures that smaller companies incur? It's a colossal waste that's not doing you any good, and not doing the company nearly as much good as it might have around the turn of the century.
I'll go further (again) and say that tradeshows are the least reliable ways to find out if a product will work for YOU in the real world, because the people in the booth are the least qualified to tell you anything about how it works in the real world.
Yes, information from actual people is important for making decisions. And there are thousands of people here in the Cow who can tell you EXACTLY how something works -- IF it works -- in far more detail than a product person in a booth will ever experience.
So I go back to my starting point. For every person who makes a decision based on a tradeshow, there are thousands who make their decisions in other venues. HUNDREDS of thousands of those decisions are made outside of NAB every month. It's not going to be any different in April than it is today.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 15, 2008 at 12:40:44 am
[Tim Wilson]"So I go back to my starting point. For every person who makes a decision based on a tradeshow, there are thousands who make their decisions in other venues. HUNDREDS of thousands of those decisions are made outside of NAB every month."
Decisions influenced by dealers and their salesmen who worked the shows of their manufacturers. It's a much bigger dynamic than you are painting.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 1:21:11 am
[Randall Raymond]"Decisions influenced by dealers and their salesmen who worked the shows of their manufacturers. It's a much bigger dynamic than you are painting."
When I spent $75,000 for my first Media 100 back in 1994, I had never been to NAB nor had the salesperson I worked with at the dealer in San Francisco.
I have bought many times the number of things over the years from dealers than I have from NAB. The truth is, I hate carrying around anything on the floor and would much rather buy outside NAB.
There is no one-size-fits-all except in a world where the majority of people dress funny.
I have no doubt that many people like NAB. I love going to see my friends but little else really excites me as I know that all I have to do is pick up the phone and call one of my friends (if I can't find the answer online), and I can find the answer I need.
I put WAY more credence on the value of user feedback and commentary than I do on a salesperson. (Even though I know many good ones and work with a number directly on my own purchases.) But when it comes to knowledge, I don't know any salesperson that can rival the aggregate knowledge of a huge body of users kicking on a tool from a wide variety of usages and focus.
Last I looked, NAB wasn't hiring genies in the bottle and while I have HUGE respect for platform artists like Tim Kolb (who has worked at NAB for years with companies like Adobe and Canopus and others), I think that even Tim Kolb would admit that there's something to be said for an aggregate body of knowledge like that found at the COW. Just as there is indeed value to be had in talking face to face with someone like Tim at NAB. It's just that it's gotten increasingly hard to justify the escalating expenses that are associated with presenting at their show.
The real issue is that NAB just keeps raising the rates and they are the ones who themselves are killing their very own goose that lays the golden eggs.
I just got a PDF sent to me about a week ago to renew our contract from last year in which we bought a full page ad in the NAB Show Daily magazine. It was $3,800 last year and the price was around $7200 for the same ad this year. Ridiculous, I told them. "Are you smoking crack?" was actually closer to what I said.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Tim Kolb on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:05:02 am
[Tim Wilson]"I'll go further (again) and say that tradeshows are the least reliable ways to find out if a product will work for YOU in the real world, because the people in the booth are the least qualified to tell you anything about how it works in the real world."
I think it might be best if you guys back this down a touch...this statement was frankly, absurd.
I work NAB... I have had people follow me from manufacturer to manufacturer's booth to find me because they think I have valuable information. A LOT of respected Cow contributors work at NAB to add exactly that 'real world' perspective that you say is missing. You guys can make the case that the event is expensive without any problem at all...I've had opportunities to see the rental costs of a non-descript bar-height chair in the LVCC...it's larceny quite honestly.
However, saying we're all just talking heads is such a ridiculous generalization that I think it's below you.
The body of knowledge at the Cow is certainly formidable (responding now to Ron) and Ron's article certainly spells out his thinking very clearly...
...but while I think that the cost/benefit of tradeshows is certainly in question, I think asserting that the people in the booths have no useful information is over the top.
Methinks you guys doth protest too much...the economics make sense...I'd leave the rest alone for now until the fallout or lack of it demonstrates how effective the options are for these companies.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Timothy J. Allen on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:48:10 am
Tim K.,
I went to NAB for seven years in a row precisely to get a chance to talk with people who knew what they were talking about. Along the way I met a lot of people who knew a lot about a lot of things. I'll include many of the Creative Cow forum leaders including you and Tim Wilson in that group of knowledgeable people.
I also met some people demoing products that were just there for the free plane ticket and hotel room.
I just don't believe you or Tim Wilson can paint the level of expertise in the booths with such a broad brush.
I could go to one booth and talk with the owner of a company who wrote the original code for a product, but find myself a few minutes later at another booth watching a demo from a "demo artist" who never actually used the product before the show - and wasn't planning to ever use it after the show.
You guys both spent a lot of time at NAB. Can you see that you are both right?
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Tim Kolb on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:59:34 am
[Timothy J. Allen]"I just don't believe you or Tim Wilson can paint the level of expertise in the booths with such a broad brush."
One difference between us...I said that the statement was an over-generalization. I didn't over-generalize in the other direction and say that everyone there was helpful or knowledgeable...my issue was that you simply can't say that nobody is...
I don't speak in ultimatums. I'm in the middle. I'm not saying that NAB is indispensible or perfect, I'm simply saying that i think it's over the top to say that it's staffed solely with the 'hired gun' demo artists who know nothing. There are a lot of us here who are apparently not very useful if one is to believe that statement.
I didn't have much of an issue with Ron's article...just that one statement inside of Tim's (W) post.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 3:05:59 am
[Tim Kolb]"I think it might be best if you guys back this down a touch...this statement was frankly, absurd."
Tim was speaking for Tim in his own opinion, me I happen not to agree with him on this one.
My point is that people say that NAB is critical to users getting the best feedback and experience and so on and so forth. That too is absurd.
There are MANY TIMES the number of people that own, use and are VERY good with these tools that have never been to NAB.
My point is that the market is changing and these companies are pulling because NAB just keeps raising the rates through the ceiling and they themselves are killing their own goose that has laid them golden eggs.
As I said earlier, when NAB does this and their own partnering companies keep raising their rates (as in the TV Technology printed Daily Show magazine whose rates nearly doubled for this year -- even though without Apple and Avid the show is almost guaranteed to have fewer, not more, attendees) this too is absurd.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Christopher Wright on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:24:46 am
I'll add my vote to Randall's for exactly the same reasons he mentioned, and the ones I mentioned in a thread below this one. Following your logic, Apple is wasting all its money on all the trade mags advertising as well. Care to guess how much that sends them back?? We can much better explore any buying info needed on the web. Forget MacWorld, IBC, Siggraph, etc. Just stay home and be further disconnected from the world, your professional peers, the people who actually make and sell the products you buy, and any tactile sensation of a tripod, camera etc.
I'll second Walter on his earlier observation as well:
"Not sure why we have yet another thread started on this topic when there's a very good discussion going on down below. I can never understand that."
Dual 2.5 G5, IO, Kona LH, IO, Medea Raid, UL4D, NVidia 6800, 4Gig RAM
Octocore 8 GB Ram, Radeon card, MBP, MXO
Windows XP Adobe Studio CS3, Vegas 8.0, Lightwave 9.2, Sound Forge 9, Acid Pro 6, Continuum 5, Boris Red 4, Combustion 2008, Sapphire Effects
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:55:07 am
[Christopher Wright]"Following your logic, Apple is wasting all its money on all the trade mags advertising as well."
Christopher,
No they are not. (Bet you knew I'd say that -- but I bet you didn't know why I'd say that...)
There has been NO print advertising from Apple for over three years now, when it comes to Final Cut Studio. The last Apple print ad for Final Cut was long before Studio came out.
They advertise the consumer stuff but feel NO NEED to advertise the pro tools. (With the exception of a few small ads for Logic and Aperture. Newer products that have yet to find their markets.)
They learned that, for them, they didn't change their sales figures 10% by spending all that money on advertising Final Cut or the other Studio tools. So they stopped. Long ago.
Things change.
There was a time they needed to advertise. That changed. They sell the same amount with or without it as they have attained their own brand "critical mass" and in doing so, they are FAR MORE in control of their destiny than arguably any other tech company.
Lastly, Christopher, if Kathlyn adding a post to inform users of a new article (and to which a reader responds and starts another thread going) offends you, then please don't open them and read them. The solution is quite simple.
Personally, some of the smartest people I know in this industry haven't been to a tradeshow in years. It is NOT a one-size-fits-all world.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 3:27:24 am
You are so smart David that you named your dog Augie Doggie. That makes you freakin' brilliant in my book.
Now if you could get another dog and name it Clutch Cargo -- or better still, get two dogs and name them Clutch Cargo and his pal Paddlefoot -- you could attain genius status (or maybe even sainthood!).
Ever a lover of classic Hanna Barbera cartoons and the one rotating backing plate they all shared,
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Christopher Wright on Feb 15, 2008 at 5:53:25 am
Ron,
I of course am talking about all of Apple's advertising budget and Apple's company presence period. I don't know why you keep referring to just FCP in your posts on NAB as well. Using Tim's argument, they are spending a LOT of YOUR dollars advertising I-junk that could be used better for R&D and "one on ones." NAB isn't just about one software app!
Dual 2.5 G5, IO, Kona LH, IO, Medea Raid, UL4D, NVidia 6800, 4Gig RAM
Octocore 8 GB Ram, Radeon card, MBP, MXO
Windows XP Adobe Studio CS3, Vegas 8.0, Lightwave 9.2, Sound Forge 9, Acid Pro 6, Continuum 5, Boris Red 4, Combustion 2008, Sapphire Effects
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 6:38:23 am
[Christopher Wright]"I don't know why you keep referring to just FCP in your posts on NAB as well. Using Tim's argument, they are spending a LOT of YOUR dollars advertising I-junk that could be used better for R&D and "one on ones." NAB isn't just about one software app!"
I am speaking in the context of NAB, not Macworld expo. NAB, for Apple, is about MOSTLY Final Cut. That is why I address it from that point of view.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point but I thought that that was what we were discussing, NAB and Apple. In that context, Final Cut seems far more appropriate than iPods, Garageband and iLife software.
By saving $15 million from NAB, that throws a lot more money (and time) back into the kitty that can be used for FCP and the high end suite of tools.
Lastly, the iJunk (as you call it) is quite profitable and is taking absolutely nothing away from the Final Cut and related apps. They have different engineers, different budgets and different marketing teams even. One is courting a wide reaching consumer base and the money spent there wins new and mostly previous PC customers. The other, needs little marketing as the users themselves market it in a much more focused environment. In this environment the reputation alone of the Final Cut Studio has helped Apple market it without the need for things like NAB, so says Apple and they are the ones who will write the check -- not you or me.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Steve Wargo on Feb 17, 2008 at 8:07:04 pm
Many years ago, I couldn't leave for school until Clutch Cargo was over. It make me about 5 minutes late for school and it started a tradition that extends into today, five minutes late.
thanks for the memory, Ron.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!
Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 15, 2008 at 5:54:58 am
[Ron Lindeboom]"Personally, some of the smartest people I know in this industry haven't been to a tradeshow in years. It is NOT a one-size-fits-all world."
No, it's not. But in the marketing mix, trade shows are invaluable. Trade shows can establish a product, and once established, the very medium that helped them - can become superfluous. I speak from experience.
It was the DV revolution that took the NAB from a la-dee-da exclusive audience to something much broader and popular. The NAB has been riding the wave - and, certainly, much of that wave has nothing to do with traditional broadcasting. It's the revolution that opened up the industry to guys working out of their home.
So the NAB continues to give their quaint non-internet dinners for 'Life-Time Achievement' awards to radio people and TV people - locally and nationally - it's not like they have forgotten their roots - God bless them it and for honoring those people who have paved the way.
What does the internet offer? A click-through to a photo? Oh, what an honor! Ron, you cannot offer that here, no matter how successful the Cow gets.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 6:44:53 am
[Randall Raymond]"What does the internet offer? A click-through to a photo? Oh, what an honor! Ron, you cannot offer that here, no matter how successful the Cow gets."
Wow, all you get from the net is a click-through to a photo. Then you clearly don't have the eyes to see or the ears to hear the truly remarkable minds around here that give so much of their time freely helping sort out issues and problems that Apple tech support -- and Adobe and Sony's, as well -- can't sort out many times.
If that's all you can see just why do you bother to come here anyway, Randall???
In most cases that I have seen, trophies age and become pretty meaningless but the great people go on and on. I have been doing this over 12 years now and many of the leaders on this forum I have known and interacted with and have come to know very well over the years. You don't seem to get that but that's okay, you clearly have little real comprehension of what this community really is and has done for many people.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 15, 2008 at 7:47:08 am
[Ron Lindeboom]"You don't seem to get that but that's okay, you clearly have little real comprehension of what this community really is and has done for many people."
That's a cheap shot. You owe me an apology.
You take your shots at the NAB, but when was the last time you honored a 'contributor' with a dinner and a banquet hall full of guests applauding their contribution to the industry? When has the Cow done that? The NAB was founded in 1922. What's twelve years of the Cow? A new tradition? A break with history?
You point at the NAB as an example of hubris. Why? So now what? We all have to agree with you or be insulted. Screw you!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:11:23 pm
Randall:
Over the last three months or more, I have to say that I don't think that I have seen anyone on this forum toss out insults as freely as you, mon ami. It's why I feel no need to handle you with "kid gloves." You have proven over your time here that you don't feel the need to restrain oneself or extend the that type of courtesy to others.
As to screw me, my pompous friend, I have spent myself into the poor house to help and honor people. Of the 12 years I have been doing this, only about three of them has the COW carried its own weight. At one point, we were literally close to $250,000 in debt and we are not rich. In fact, over the years there have been three times when we simply couldn't juggle enough balls in the air that three different people stepped up and paid the costs for the month. God bless 'em, we say. But we were too stubborn to quit because we love this community and most of the people in it.
When we did start making money, we poured it right back into this, adding more free services as fast as we could and hiring more people to make this site more useful to people. When we start a publishing company, instead of the obligatory 8% to 13% that most people pay their authors, we cut 2/3s of the gross to our authors, with all of the expenses coming out of our third. ALL the expenses, no chargebacks whatsoever. Unprecedented in the history of this industry. I will put my honors where they should be, in investing in the people. I will leave NAB to collect the checks and give out the tinsel. You can see the value wherever you wish, mon ami.
I don't give a rat's patootey that NAB gives some trophy or a dinner to honor someone. They charge so much freaking money that they should be giving the honorees money -- real money. After all, they make millions off each show.
The greatest honor we have probably ever received is when we've had people call us or walk up to us at a tradeshow and tell us that "Ron and Kathlyn, man my family loves you." (We have really had it happen more than once.) We ask why. "Because back when you started all this I was flailing around at my job trying to get all this new digital stuff figured out so I didn't get laid off and lose the job I've had for a long time. I found your site and I have been coming ever since."
Hearing stuff like that is a real honor. But you don't get it and I will tell you that again. If that offends you, oh well, it's true and there's no way around it. If NAB was doing the kinds of things that they should be doing, there would be no room for the COW -- thankfully they don't have that much vision, and their honors equate more to the "high seats at the feast" variety than those honors found digging trenches with the common folk.
Rather than trophies, we do things like help people in the COW to stay in business when they are in real trouble. We have boxed up studio gear and sent it to leaders here when they've been burglarized. We have written checks to people when we noticed that their phone got shut off or their power was turned off because business was rough. We have negotiated deals to keep leaders in business when they lost their businesses in partnership break-ups and bankruptcies.
We'll leave the trophies to someone else, thank you.
So, Randall, when you have done more than demand respect while throwing insults, I may listen to you, until then your voice is not one of the ones here that I place a lot of stock in. And I will say it again, you really don't get much about the COW and your ignorance of what this really is is quite apparent to me.
Lastly, I don't ask ANYONE to agree with me, agreement here is NOT mandatory. You seem to be the one that somehow feels people have to agree with you or else. I have MANY leaders here who don't agree with me at all, I never choose leaders because they mimic my beliefs. In fact, I joke that if everyone around here reflected my opinions it'd be a pretty boring place.
In closing, the ONLY thing I like about NAB is the people that attend it. Over the years, I have NEVER had NAB not try to pull a fast one on my contract and just last year, they tried to give me a booth assignment with a booth number that didn't exist. Good thing I caught it, or we'd have shown up thinking we were getting a booth near Adobe and Sony, only to be told based on my experience of working with them that there was an unfortunate mistake and that the only booth available is this one here in the back. It wasn't the first time that that has happened. More than once they've pulled that kind of crap on us. I personally don't trust them at all.
But hey, apparently they give really nice trophies, I hear.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 4:54:37 pm
I wasn't referring to this thread, Randall. Why I said three months is due to your general manner in our forums. You are especially tepid in this thread, probably due to the way that some of your recent insults with people got you slapped down by me and others.
But I must commend you most sincerely, and I do mean that, as you have become much more balanced and respectful -- especially in this thread.
I will be quite up front with you, Randall. I hate NAB. As I said somewhere else in this thread, I have repeatedly had them screw around with my contracts, leave important things off of them that were clearly agreed to, had wrong booth number assignments made (after negotiating specific booths and then seeing them not end up on the contract), ad nauseum.
To be even more brutally honest with you, I like them so little that I refused their advertising this year in Creative COW Magazine and told them that we would not accept it. We wanted to send them a message as they can't treat people the way they do. They are bullies in my opinion and they think that they can do whatever they wish. Me, I disagree and I am one stubborn man that you don't want to screw with -- especially in a war of principle.
I applaud both Apple and Avid and I will cheer the next round of defectors, as well.
As I said, the only thing I am sorry about in any of this is that I won't get to see my friends this year. That was the part of NAB that I loved. The technology I can learn about in a myriad of places and I hardly think that I can only get accurate answers from those manning the booths at NAB.
Just as in life in general, you learn who to listen to and which voices you won't. I choose my friends with care and my counselors with even more care.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by walter biscardi on Feb 15, 2008 at 11:49:35 am
[Tim Wilson]"I'll go further (again) and say that tradeshows are the least reliable ways to find out if a product will work for YOU in the real world, because the people in the booth are the least qualified to tell you anything about how it works in the real world."
I'm going to agree with Tim Kolb here and say this is way too much of a generalization. Like Tim, I have worked in several booths over the years and I think I'm pretty well qualified to tell folks how the gear I'm demoing does work in the real world.
[Tim Wilson]"And there are thousands of people here in the Cow who can tell you EXACTLY how something works -- IF it works -- in far more detail than a product person in a booth will ever experience."
And there are thousands of people who will give you the absolutely wrong information on the Cow as well. Many people on these forums speculate as to what a product will do or they simply "assume" the product will do what they are claiming. I have found just as much mis-information and flat out inaccuracies on these forums as there is good information.
No one answer is perfect, but to broadly say the information at a trade show is inferior to the information on the Cow is definitely skewing the information. There's equal bad information to go around.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 2:35:24 pm
[walter biscardi]"No one answer is perfect, but to broadly say the information at a trade show is inferior to the information on the Cow is definitely skewing the information. There's equal bad information to go around."
I hate to disagree with my esteemed friend, Walter, but when bad information is given at the COW, there is nearly always another voice that will correct it.
When bad advice is given by someone at a booth at a trade show, there is almost never anyone there that can correct it.
Equal, I think not. At least not to me.
But then, maybe I am just overprotective of something that I see as being quite self-correcting and speedily self-balancing. The old adage that there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors is still quite correct today.
Over the years, I have heard many false claims bandied about at trade shows; claims that I knew were patently incorrect, but that I did not feel the liberty to correct under the circumstances.
I think that getting great people like Walter, Tim Kolb, Bob Zelin, Mike Downey and others definitely helps in this regard, but there are many others that I could name by name that I have stood there rolling my eyes while thinking to myself that this is, well...bull.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by walter biscardi on Feb 15, 2008 at 4:10:35 pm
[Ron Lindeboom]"I hate to disagree with my esteemed friend, Walter, but when bad information is given at the COW, there is nearly always another voice that will correct it."
And three more voices to go back the other way. I've seen way too many threads in the Final Cut Pro, After Effects, Color, AJA Kona, BlackMagic that have completely false or inaccurate information. Someone corrects that information only to have it shot down again by someone else or the original person.
You hope enough people with the correct information are the ones that are listened to.
[Ron Lindeboom]"When bad advice is given by someone at a booth at a trade show, there is almost never anyone there that can correct it."
That's why you visit all of the booths of the people who make the same gear and make your own intelligent decision. When a "Road Show" comes to town, you only get one side of the story.
Sure you can research anything on the internet, but I like to see the stuff before I purchase. That's why I have four companies all asking me to come to NAB to demonstrate the products. They see the value in someone who uses the material every day demonstrating to someone else why the product is valuable and worth their money.
But as NAB just isn't important anymore according to both you and Tim Wilson, I haven't made any decisions on whether to accept their offers or not. I mean folks can just get the same information on the internet, no need for me to show up in person and meet the folks. Seeing my words on the internet and watching my videos is basically the same as meeting me.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 4:24:20 pm
[walter biscardi]"And three more voices to go back the other way. I've seen way too many threads in the Final Cut Pro, After Effects, Color, AJA Kona, BlackMagic that have completely false or inaccurate information. Someone corrects that information only to have it shot down again by someone else or the original person."
Wow, I think it may be time for me and Kathlyn to just pull the plug on this turd and not bother with this anymore. If the COW is just noise, then I for one think it's outlived its usefulness and it is clearly time to put my energy into something more useful.
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Randall Raymond on Feb 15, 2008 at 4:56:10 pm
[Ron Lindeboom]"Wow, I think it may be time for me and Kathlyn to just pull the plug on this turd and not bother with this anymore. If the COW is just noise, then I for one think it's outlived its usefulness and it is clearly time to put my energy into something more useful."
Oh, don't talk like that! You've done a great thing. What's gotten into you?
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by walter biscardi on Feb 15, 2008 at 7:38:57 pm
[Ron Lindeboom]"Wow, I think it may be time for me and Kathlyn to just pull the plug on this turd and not bother with this anymore. If the COW is just noise, then I for one think it's outlived its usefulness and it is clearly time to put my energy into something more useful.
Nothing lasts forever."
Never implied that. In my opinion there's no better place on the internet for professionals to get information and share ideas. This is proven week in and week out.
There is also no better place to market yourself on a week to week basis either. I can trace the majority of the growth of my company to my association with the Cow. As a networking source there is no better place than the Creative Cow.
I'm just saying there is a wonderful thing about that face to face communication with folks that we do miss even on this website. Now if NAB is simply not worth the money that folks are having to pour in to the show, well that's another story. There was recently an article in MSNBC.com about CES looking to pull out of las vegas due to the high costs for both the attendees and the exhibitors. Now THAT is a something that I would totally understand and support.
Obviously we all understand that getting and supporting a booth at a show like NAB is going to be an expensive proposition. Perhaps the show has just gotten too expensive these days even for large companies like Avid and Apple to justify. Perhaps you're right, maybe NAB just need to shrink back to it's original intent of the heavy iron companies. I attended NAB back in 1990 when it was right here in Atlanta. Just one show floor and all heavy iron to work in broadcast.
I just really took offense to Tim lumping all folks on the Show Floor as not knowing what they are talking about and not being able to get any useful information on the show floor. Especially when I work alongside other Cow leaders like Shane Ross, Jerry Hofmann to name a few.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ron Lindeboom on Feb 15, 2008 at 9:17:21 pm
[walter biscardi]"I just really took offense to Tim lumping all folks on the Show Floor as not knowing what they are talking about and not being able to get any useful information on the show floor. Especially when I work alongside other Cow leaders like Shane Ross, Jerry Hofmann to name a few."
As you may have noted from my earlier comment, Walter, I have my opinions just as Tim Wilson has his. While we most times agree with each others opinions, we do not always do so and each of us is a different individual.
Tim is mellower than me on most occasions, but sometimes he's not.
:o)
Thanks for the heads up on the CES story at MSNBC, I was unaware of that aspect of the issue. Thanks for giving me a new drum to add to the set. ;o)
Now in the COW Magazine: Commercials. A look at the history, strategy, techniques and production workflows of successful commercials. All brought to you by some of the COW's brightest members. Accept no substitutes!
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Tim Wilson on Feb 18, 2008 at 1:12:51 am
[walter biscardi]"I just really took offense to Tim lumping all folks on the Show Floor as not knowing what they are talking about and not being able to get any useful information on the show floor. Especially when I work alongside other Cow leaders like Shane Ross, Jerry Hofmann to name a few."
My point precisely. The only people who provide reliable, real-world information at trade shows are people like the folks you mention, Tim Kolb, and a multitude of others...
...none of whom work full time for vendors, and all of whom are available in the Cow.
To refine my target...without otherwise backing down one whit... corporate reps, including the smart and well-intentioned (which is almost all of them, btw), are not qualified to talk about the real world.
To get that, people need to talk to YOU.
Vendors know this. That's why they invite you to speak on their behalf. YOU know how products work in the real world because you live there, and they don't.
Which is why contact here in the Cow is more valuable than a trade show for finding how things really work.
You mentioned in another post, Walter, that people can get bad information from the Cow every bit as easily from a trade show, but I don't exactly agree.
The benefit of the Cow is that it's self-correcting. Bad advice is never the last word. Not when you guys are on the thread anyway.
The people here aren't getting PAID BY anyone to say nice things about their own stuff. Cows have PAID FOR their stuff, often risking their businesses on their choices.
Or in my case, my business AND my house. I bought my first pro editing set-up by taking out TWO mortgages, because the editing gear cost MORE than my house.(This was the early 90s, so the numbers for either wouldn't be nearly the same today.)
And I gambled the roof over my family's head without going to a single video trade show. I asked the people I trusted in the Cow's ancestral forum. After years online, it was easy to see who knew what they were talking about. I ignored everyone else. No way I was going to get that kind of reliability at a show, where I had no idea who to trust and who to ignore.
Which is why vendors have people like you, Shane, Jerry, Tim and others in their booths. No company, not even The Big Three, have as much credibility as you guys. Small companies may have NO credibility besides you guys.
My advice to anyone is to save time and money by going direct. Eliminate the middle man. Skip shows and get the information you need to protect your business at Cow.
The first thing you should do with the money you save is buy something nice for your Most Significant Other. Then take the rest of it, plus the time you've saved, and have a VACATION.
Note that this, like all but one of my posts on this thread, is my own opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the views or policies of anyone anywhere.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by walter biscardi on Feb 18, 2008 at 1:36:27 am
[Tim Wilson]"My point precisely. The only people who provide reliable, real-world information at trade shows are people like the folks you mention, Tim Kolb, and a multitude of others...
...none of whom work full time for vendors, and all of whom are available in the Cow."
This makes no sense. Here's your statement:
I'll go further (again) and say that tradeshows are the least reliable ways to find out if a product will work for YOU in the real world, because the people in the booth are the least qualified to tell you anything about how it works in the real world.
You do not make any differentiations between anybody. "Because the people in the booth are the least qualified to tell you anything about how it works in the real world."
You can't change your statement now and try to re-qualify it. You were clearly saying that anyone who works in the booth is not qualified which includes Shane Ross, Jerry Hofmann, myself and quite a few others.
Please don't try to say "oh this is what I really meant" because you found out you offended me and some others who put a lot of effort and time in meeting folks at NAB and sharing what knowledge we have.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by Ken Summerall on Feb 18, 2008 at 10:49:30 pm
[walter biscardi]" I attended NAB back in 1990 when it was right here in Atlanta. Just one show floor and all heavy iron to work in broadcast. "
Hey Walter that was the last time I went to NAB. I'm going this year after a looong time off. I kinda hate that Apple won't be there, but for me it is not a real big deal. I'll get to see them at the Supermeet.
What do I hope to see at NAB? Well, I hope that I will get to meet some of the great leaders on the Cow, and see just what innovative new stuff is out there in my field. This is the one place that I will get to see a whole bunch of stuff in one place. I guess I could do that on the internet but it's just not as fun. There's something about the energy of being around a bunch of people, seeing some really innovative stuff and racking your brains trying to figure out if it's what you really need.
I also agree with many folks that NAB needs to make this show more affordable for both exhibitors and attendees. I hope that they will shrink a little so that they can move the event around the country again. If it's true that LV is the only place big enough to hold them then it will never get more affordable. It's supply and demand baby! Maybe a few years down the road it will back in Atlanta. At least I can drive there!
For what its worth,
Ken Summerall
Wellwater Productions, Inc.
"A non-profit production company specializing in media with a mission."
Re: COW Articles: NAB Apple Bows Out of NAB 2008 by David Roth Weiss on Feb 15, 2008 at 5:48:44 pm
[walter biscardi]"I've seen way too many threads in the Final Cut Pro, After Effects, Color, AJA Kona, BlackMagic that have completely false or inaccurate information. Someone corrects that information only to have it shot down again by someone else or the original person."
Walter,
Sure that does happen from time to time, there's no doubt about it, and no one is immune, even Cow leaders give out bad info every once in while. However, I'd have to agree with Ron and say that NAB can be even more of a minefield of misinformation.
All too often the booths at NAB are manned by people only newly acquainted with the latest versions of the products they are demonstrating. The odds of a "power user" actually landing someone with useful knowledge is often marginal at best. Sure, that can be minimized by seeking out the top guns and by prudent appointment setting, but that can be more difficult at NAB than anywhere else on the planet.
My uptake is much greater than what NAB can typically provide. Plus, the noise factor alone makes the transfer of any real information incredibly difficult. To me, NAB is more frustrating than anything else, and between the Cow and other channels of communication, I feel I can get better information and more of it in a much shorter time than I ever could doing at NAB, and isn't that really the point?
Yes, I do miss meeting people there, but...
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
