HDV in a Standard-Def project

	HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry (Todd at Fantastic Plastic) on Jul 7, 2008 at 9:47:14 pm Hey gang... I might cross-post this in a couple of forums... I feel a little foolish for not knowing the best way to do this, but here goes... We usually live in the HD or SD world, and don't mix-n-match the two much... however, now I have to and I'm wondering the very best way to use HDV footage in an NTSC project to get the best results. Footage is aquired with a Canon XLH1, and edited with Premiere 3.0 on a Matrox AXIO LE system. No matter what I do, downconverted footage just doesn't look quite as good as footage natively shot as standard-def. I would think it would be possible for the footage to look just as good, if not better. The options I've tried are: 1) Capturing the footage as HDV in a Premiere HDV project, then dropping it onto the timeline in a Standard-Def project and resizing with motion. 2) Capturing the footage as HD in a Premiere uncompressed 10-bit project, then dropping it onto the timeline in a Standard-Def project and resizing with motion. 3) Downconverting in camera and capturing the footage as 16:9 DV footage, then dropping it onto the standard-def timeline and using the 16:9 ratio which gives me the full-screen "center punch" that I need. None of these options give me a result that seems quite as sharp as native standard-def, in a side-by-side test. Before we got this AXIO system, I had an AJA system and would capture HD as SD with Machina (which allows choosing letterboxed, centerpunched, or anamorphic)... and those results seemed to be better, at least in my memory... but that is no longer an option with the Matrox system. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 8, 2008 at 1:41:54 am Sigh... wish you could, too, Don... Unfortunately all our suites are PP... the only MacHead in the shop is our art director. Maybe someone else can help.... T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 8, 2008 at 1:18:57 pm [Michael Slowe] "most editing systems do a great downscale job" I suspect mine will too... it's a butt-kicking system otherwise. I suspect I just don't have the optimum workflow or some mystery settings somewhere. Anyone?? T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 9, 2008 at 9:36:30 pm Thanks guys... Tim, as I occasionally do I may bug you off-forum tomorrow or later in the week... In the meantime... [Tim Kolb] "What are your SD project settings?" Typically I'm capturing the video in a Matrox HD 1080i 29.97 Uncompressed 10-bit Premiere project. Typically I'm trying to use the video in a Matrox SD NTSC Standard Uncompressed 10-bit Premiere project. [Tim Kolb] "Is the HDV footage Canon's mysterious "24F" mode? Yes. As mysterious as it may be though, I've always found "24f" to work flawlessly, and hase no perceptible difference from 24p either in SD or HD. Strangely enough, when I shoot SD with the Canon in 24f, the video captures/imports as 30fps video. But in HD it captures/imports as 24fps video (looks the same, just based on what it says under "properties"). [Tim Kolb] "Are you viewing on the desktop? External CRT? LCD?" I view the HD footage on the desktop, I view the SD footage on desktop and on external CRT, component. [Tim Kolb] "rendered? Preview? " The files are rendered, ready to go... [Tim Kolb] "In every scenario you mention you've tried in the first post, I'm willing to bet the Matrox card is rendering the HD stuff into whatever render format you have specified for the timeline and if you have an untouched, native size clip that runs RT" Hmmmm, maybe, but I don't think so, as these files are requiring rendering. Perhaps of note is that if I downconvert in-camera and simply capture as SD, it's still not as razor sharp as if I had natively shot SD. Perhaps that is because I'm squeezing a widescreen image into the 486x720 frame, and the "stretching" causes resolution loss. [Tim Kolb] "I am wondering if it may be below the perceptive threshold of most clients" That's a possiblity, but it's sure not below my perceptive threshold, and it's driving me nuts. I'm shooting with lenses that are worth a heckuva lot more than the camera itself, and get native SD footage that is razor razor sharp. Just seems that I should be able to get downconverted HD footage that was similar. Sigh. T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 10, 2008 at 3:08:40 am Hi Jerry.... Yeah, I thought that could be one of the problems when I use the camera to downconvert and just digitize as DV... Unfortuantely it doesn't explain why importing HDV or full HD into an SD project yeilds less-than-super-sharp results. Sigh... the quest goes on. T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 10, 2008 at 2:30:07 pm Thanks, Don... I'd much appreciate it. T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 11, 2008 at 1:46:07 am Finally found the right set of hoops to jump through... now getting good results.... Thanks, all.... T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: HDV in a Standard-Def project by Todd Terry on Jul 11, 2008 at 7:07:51 pm [Don Greening] "Would you be willing to share a brief overview" Absoltuely, Don... The problem seemed to stem from a frame-rate inconsistency.... We shoot a fair amount of standard-def with the Canon XLH1 in Canon's funky 24f mode. But it always captures and imports as 29.97 and drops fine into a 29.97 standard-def project (and the 3:2 pulldown is perfect, looks great). HOWEVER, the HDV footage was capturing and importing as 23.976 footage. I could still drop it into a 29.97 timeline and resize it, and everything is fine... except that it looked just ever-so-barely soft to me. Almost imperceptible (Tim Kolb is probably right, the client would most likely never notice), but to me I could tell the difference. SO... I started a new 23.976 1080 10-bit uncompressed HD project, and in that project I used Premiere motion to resize all my clips... and exported new 10-bit umcompressed AVIs of the clips. BUT I exported them as 29.97 clips, not as 23.976. You can now throw them onto a 60i standard-def timeline and they work perfectly, crystal clear. I did turn off Premiere's "frame blending," but I'm not sure if it made a difference... by that point my eyes were playing tricks on me. I don't like having the extra hoop to jump through... but then I remember the RED users in the early days...ha. Maybe this will be of some use to your friend... T2 __________________________________ Todd Terry Creative Director Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc. fantasticplastic.com Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index