What is the best HDV camera on the market now?
by Matthew Baker (BCP LLC)
on
Jun 3, 2008 at 4:48:20 pm
I am looking at making the jump to HD and was wondering which camera would be the best? I've talked with a few people who have suggested panasonic, sony, & canon, but which is better?
Most of the work I do is either local television, corporate training, or event video. Versatility is a must & affordability would be nice but I'm willing to pay if it has the right features.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Matthew Baker on Jun 3, 2008 at 5:22:25 pm
Excellent questions,
1. Tape backup would be preferred, not quite ready to make the tapeless jump yet.
2. I use Premier Pro CS3 for editing
3. Generally all of my delivery requires post processing (I think that would answer your question correctly)
4. Versatility to me means the ability to use the camera easily for events and live shoots. I'm looking to minimize setup/tear down times and if I need to move from one area to another quickly, can the camera adapt. Variable frame rates and interchangeable lenses would also be very nice.
5. I would be looking to top out around 5-7k, but if there is something out there in the 10k range that far exceeds the 5-7k, I would consider going that high.
6. I've been using a handycam style of camera (DVX100) & enjoy the weight and versatility, but I'm not closed to potentially getting a shoulder cam.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Harry Pallenberg on Jun 3, 2008 at 8:33:30 pm
There are literally dozens of choices, but based on your answers, the 1 and only choice you should possibly buy is:
Sony HVR-Z7U
Cost $5,600
Records to tape and Compact Flash at same time in
Interchangeable lens
records HDV or DVCAM / DV
1080 60i / 50i 1080 24p / 25p / 30p
Sort of a joke - there are still other options for you but this seems to fit the bill of price / lens / frame rate / tape.... I'm sure there will be tons of other opinions - thats good.
In reality you can use a Hi8 camcorder from my Mom's closet and still get an academy award if the story is 'all that'.
Good luck.
Thanks,
Harry.
Forum Cowmunity Leader: Indie & Doc
Forum Cowmunity Leader: HDV
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Matthew Baker on Jun 3, 2008 at 9:25:31 pm
Thanks for the recommendation! Looks like an excellent camera.
Being new to the HD world, are all HD cameras 16:9 only? I'm just thinking some of my clients might want 4:3. Does it have an option to shoot in 4:3? Or would I just have to crop the image in post? How does that work???
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Justin Whitney on Jun 18, 2008 at 5:45:16 am
This thread is exactly what I've been looking for - right subject at the right time. I appreciate the great answers. Mind if I post a follow-up question?
I'm looking for similar - HD, 1080. But I'll be shooting primarily short films, with some promo videos on the side. So I'm definitely looking for that "film look".
The Z7U was looking really interesting to me until I read some horror stories in other forums, primarily having to do with focus problems and out of syncness when recording to tape and compact simultaneously. But I'm still curious about it. Would it be a good choice for narrative film? I'd like to have one camera flexible enough for everything from interview-style static shots to low light action sequences.
The Z7U is in the right price range. I also like the dual compact/tape recording (if it works), and especially the interchangeable lens, which puts it ahead of the HVX200 for me.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 18, 2008 at 9:41:06 am
For 'film look' you'll need a cam which shoots in progressive,
of course. The handheld version of our S270E, the HVR Z7E,
may tick all the boxes. Stuart, of course, will recommend you get
the JVC -- which again, does progressive, has interchangable
lens, and for an extra 1K or so(!), will record to an attachable
harddrive. There's precious little between the two cameras, really.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 18, 2008 at 6:20:26 pm
Justin, I hope this thread is useful. I've been hunting too and was nearly persuaded by the Z7, lots of people rushed out and got one. Maybe they were right? The other web blogs would definitely suggest not though, I've seen plenty on the lens problem and reply after reply saying "me too". I ditched the idea. I've said what I think of the JVC 200 series, I have mine now and it really is a beauty and so adaptable, I've customised mine to take my existing Anton Bauer and PAG batteries. Other than that I think I've said it all as far as I'm concerned. I've been fairly brutal about Sony, but I've seen too many disasters from them really. I think they've lost their way.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Justin Whitney on Jun 18, 2008 at 7:22:03 pm
Yes, this is incredibly helpful. I've been uncovering more about Sony, too. I'm glad I saw that before I bought it. I'd been avoiding JVC because of issues people have had with storage formats, but I'll take a closer look at the 200UB. This has potential.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 18, 2008 at 10:20:33 pm
Justin, I take it that you are in the USA or in NTSC land? Don't forget that the series numbers ending in '200UB' are very much the same as the 201E except that the DV (and only the DV circuit is either PAL or NTSC. The HDV/ DV is switchable and unlike Canon this is out of the box rather than a dealer fitted extra. The 200U has firewire out only the 200UB has firewire in and out. This can be mighty useful for swapping shots with competitors on news shoots (as we do when the producers aren't looking).
I'm not claiming at all that this camera is for everyone, but I do think it's for me. Remember that JVC has produced several different models that aren't really upgrades or in competition with each other, they are each tailored for different needs. You don't have to buy what you don't need. We like that don't we!? There is a version comparison chart on their site. There are even versions with a 2 mile microwave up-link!
I have raved about this camera, so have a lot of others, but everyone has their own needs, their likes and dislikes.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Justin Whitney on Jun 19, 2008 at 12:49:01 am
Yes, I'm in the US - thanks for asking. One thing that occurs to me that I forgot to mention is that I also plan to do a lot of chroma, fx, and compositing. Does this impact camera choice?
I read a review on Amazon recently (taking with a grain of salt, which is why I want to double-check with the pros - you guys) that discouraged HDV for these things. In fact... "If you need to do these things, I would only recommend an HDV camcorder that has uncompressed HDMI output paired with an Intensity Pro card for capture." This is where I start hearing the Charlie Brown "wah wah wah" - that's how much sense as it makes to me at this point on my learning curve.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 19, 2008 at 3:56:29 pm
No, not really. Green is the best keying colour (sorry color) for DV, but a good "tweakable" camera with a good lens makes a big difference. One of the nice things with the 200 series is that it has "White Balance Paint" which corrects lens colour err color aberrations.
Some lenses - particularly if you get into using Arri primes - can show a "hot stripe at the top of frame and a greenish stripe at the bottom of frame, the GY-HD 200 camera "paint" corrects this.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Charlie Coutrakon on Jul 2, 2008 at 1:13:12 am
Hey everyone, hope you all don't mind if I jump in with barely any experience!
This is one of a dozen discussions I've read on what HDV camera to buy, and I can't find a discussion that focuses on something very important to me: color.
I'd like a camera that does 720p24p, but would throw all that out the window if one camera in particular had great color. I think color quality, best to worst, goes 4:4:4. 4:2:2. then 4:2:0. I'm also under the impression that HDV only does 4:2:0...but again, I'm not sure.
Two cameras I have my eye on are the Sony V1U and the JVC HD110U.
Anyway, bottom line: who's got the best color? and at the end of the day, where can I just find a gallery of screenshots from different cameras? Wouldn't that be the best?!
It should be noted that the HVX200 is great, I know, but P2 is not ideal for me.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jul 2, 2008 at 8:11:26 am
No disrespect, but this is another "how long is a piece of string" question. In other words it depends on what you personally mean by "the best colour (sorry, color)" peoples tastes and requirements differ. The days of truly naff NTSC VHS color are long gone. Doubtless though, people will start hankering after that retro red bleeding double image look - soooo 70's.
Sony cameras are set up to produce (depending on your point of view of course) more strident, "in your face" color if you like your shots with the chroma humming then go that route. Canon are more subtle and so on. very basically, the more you spend on a camera the more manual control you should have over all aspects of the color (as well as the rest of the camera). As for the compression ratios - that depends more on what you are intending handle your rushes on and who the end user is.
For the moment I'm out batting for the JVC GY-HD 200 series. it is difficult to find something you can't manually control on my 201E and that certainly goes for the "color" side of things
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jul 2, 2008 at 11:31:31 am
If it helps, below is some grabs from our S270E at its lowest setting
- i.e SD, miniDV, 50i. PAL, default Zeiss lens. It hasn't had much of
colour grade because I was able to get most of the look I wanted in
camera by the time I shot it.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by nick detomaso on Jun 3, 2008 at 9:31:16 pm
I finally made a hdv purchase after years of sd production. I was using a jvc gy-dv500u and loved the performance and resolution. Before that I shot on Betacam Sp with a uvw-100.
I decided to try the sony fx1 because it's relatively cheap, still shoots DV and looks like a professional camera.
Guess what, it is a professional camera! I even got away using a simple xlr adapter I made up for the cost of a capacitor to record from my shotgun.
The ease of use is unbelievable, as is the performance. I shot an event in sd dv on complete auto and it is stunning. I had the camera on a monopod- what a fun experience after lugging around a shoulder mounted camera for half of my life.
And I never even needed to recharge the 3 standard l series batteries, which all fit comfortably in my pocket.
I even bought a very cheap sima led camera lite for $40 which worked just right for the low light stuff.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 5, 2008 at 11:31:46 am
At the HDV-end of things we use the new Sony S270E and JVC GY-HDs
to shoot Super League Rugby every week for our client, Hull FC.
There are pros and cons with each camera (our JVCs don't do 1080p,
for example) but I find them easily enough to colour-grade together,
even when using dissimilar lenses.
Personally I prefer the S270E, but I don't like the Zeiss
it comes bundled with -- the servo zoom's too near the stubby
lens so our matte boxes wouldn't fit, although some matte boxes
do, apparently.
I like the JVC's 720p but it does look like a bazooka when all
bits and pieces are attached.
The S270E's colour viewfinder is a lot crispier than than the
JVC's. Newer technology, I suppose.
Our Super League matches can be viewed (down rez'd) here:
http://www.hullfc.tv The S270Es are in the gantry, the JVCs are pitchside.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 13, 2008 at 10:12:20 pm
Well, interesting! There is no doubt that a real JVC GY-HD201E is a thing of beauty, far more interesting to me than a Sony FX1. The things you can do with a GY-HD 200 series camera, the image, (with prime lenses on the optical adapter and the 200 series' ability to image invert for Arri prime lens use put this beast in a class apart. OK it's a bit long and thin, but so what do you want? At least this gives it serious shoulder stability, and that's "Hand held".
OK now I'll give you a fright.... I say "a real JVC GY-HD201E" because, sad to say, I've already held a fake one in my own hands, believe me they exist. This one was a cleverly cosmetically adapted real JVC GY-HD111E. The gold band, the GY-HD201 cassette door, even a very convincing GY-HD201E back end. (had that back end "fallen off the back of a lorry"? Was it a fake? I don't know). I do know that it could never have worked, there are just too many differences, a key one being that the 100 series runs at about 7.3 Volts, whereas in line with it's justified broadcast aspirations, the 200 series runs at 11.5 - 17 Volts, and with very good reason. This fake had been fed about 14/ 15 volts, and had fried.
I digress, but thought I should warn you that while just launched, these fraudulent, look-a-likes GY-HD200 series cameras are already out there and in Europe, complete with truncated photocopied manuals based on the GY-HD111E, but with a fake GY-HD 201E front cover, the cassette door is easy to fake, not so the LCD left door, so it remains silver badged, (the wrong colour) and maybe most tellingly a JVC GY-HD111E series plate still under the front end of the shoulder pad! Just beware, these fakes are available on the Internet "In stock" right now, ready for the gullible and not priced so low as to make you wonder. They do say that imitation is a form of flattery, but do you really need it!
I've my own Digital Betacam and other broadcast cameras. The (real) GY-HD201E is the only HDV camera so far to really turn me on. Of course it's designed to be hand held, and beautifully designed at that, with an attention to detail, build quality and attention to a camera operator's real needs that are frankly admirable.
Here at least is a camera manufacturer who actually wants to make a camera that's backwards compliant! Yes I can use my Arri Schneider lenses, my PAG batteries, all my camera mounted 12 volt kit, (radio mics and so on). As far as I'm concerned after many, many years of watching Sony's dedication to instant obsolescence and its increasingly poor build quality (even at the broadcast end), JVC's care about this alone makes it a pleasure to confine dear old Sony to life's great dustbin.
As to GY-HD201 dropouts, I do wonder.... being a cynic by nature I've been scouring the web for bad reports. I really haven't come across any at all, so I bought one.
I've been tuning and adapting my (real) GY-HD201E today, it's output on a decent monitor is looking great I can't wait to get shooting! people have said that it's "not as sharp" as a Sony, but they also say that with DB gain switched in there is little sign of grain. So that's the answer, you want "sharper images?" No probs, re-program the camera (and watch the noise pump up).
From a broadcast cameraman's view point, apart from personal setup choice, the immediate alterations I made were easy enough. I fitted a better camera mic with a right angle elbow 3 pin XLR plug and a Rycote softie - the original XLR plug protrudes to far. I ditched the IDX battery plate and fitted a spare Anton Bauer battery plate with a PAG adapter - so both battery systems are now there. A good tip for any camera with a top handle is to go to your local sports store and buy yourself a good rubber padded tennis racket grip, wind and fix it around the camera's handle. It's far more comfortable and far more secure in a scrum situation, all my cameras have that mod, it's really good.
So, the opposition? Cmos and the rolling shutter? Err, no. Not yet. "Zeiss" badged Sony servo driven lenses (that are beginning to look as if they pull themselves out of focus)... No. Canon HD? I have a soft spot for Canon, but their servo driven focus isn't right, especially for HDV. It overshoots the end mark and it isn't the great value that the JVC camera is.
It comes down to this for me. The (real) GY-HD201E is a great buy, amazing value for what it offers and nicely based on what my clients actually want, a proven archive format and a positive host of other recording possibilities. You don't have to buy them all, just be able to feed output to your client's choice, let them bring that hardware.
If you happen to own an oil well, then there is always "The Red". But tell me, do your cash strapped clients want it? And more importantly, do they want the post prod costs that go with it? Not a lot they don't.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 14, 2008 at 2:06:03 am
- Arri prime lens use put this beast in a class apart. OK it's a bit
- long and thin, but so what do you want? At least this gives it
- serious shoulder stability, and that's "Hand held".
Fine if you're shooting Cloverfield v.2. Then again, Cloverfield
left a lot of people running from the cinema vomiting. What's
wrong with tripods?
- Just beware, these fakes are available on the Internet "In stock"
- right now, ready for the gullible and not priced so low as to make
- you wonder. They do say that imitation is a form of flattery, but
- do you really need it!
Our JVCs are from approved suppliers. If they're fake, we'll whinge,
we'll get them replaced, and we'll report the supplier. No big deal.
- Sony's dedication to instant obsolescence and its increasingly poor
- build quality (even at the broadcast end), JVC's care about this
- alone makes it a pleasure to confine dear old Sony to life's great
- dustbin.
JVC GY-HDs don't do 1080 -- neither 'i' nor 'p', making them useless
for broadcasters such as say, Sky HD, who commission new projects in
1080 only and above. The JVC's don't even take full-size cassettes.
To upgrade a GY-HD to a solid-state solution (hard drive) costs a lot
of money (£1000s). And even them it's still only 720p max. Our Sony
S270Es come equipped with a solid state recorder. Our S270Es even
came with a freebie full-size 120mins HD cassette, as well as a 8GB
Flash card, which will give us 30 mins of 1080p.
Theoretically, on the S270E, I can simultaneously record 1080p
to a full-size HDV cassette; to uncompressed solid state, and to
a HD or SD VTR via its HD-SDI output for on- or offline at the same
time. The JVC GY can only dream of this. On the positive side, I
do like the GYs. Speaking as a colourist, their humble 4.2.0 colour
space does grade well in the right hands.
Sounds like you've had a lot of trouble with fake JVCs. If you'd
purchased Sonys in the first place, you might be better off? Saved
yourself a lot of time and money?
- If you happen to own an oil well, then there is always "The Red".
- But tell me, do your cash strapped clients want it? And more
- importantly, do they want the post prod costs that go with it?
- Not a lot they don't.
The Red One workflow is misleadingly expensive I agree, yes. Then
again, the ProRes 4.2.2 codec alleviates a lot of the costs. You
sound under-researched. Red are working on a sub-£/$3K camera.
Also, Vision Research have developed their Phantom camera
-- which is ordinarily used for 1000FPS+ use -- into a useable
720p/1080p/2K camera. The HD/HDV market is exponentially evolving
on a daily basis. The smart person keeps an eye on things and
upgrades accordingly -- as opposed to swearing allegience to just
one camera whilst condemning the rest.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 14, 2008 at 10:07:46 am
We are to some extent on the same wave length Darren. I agree of course - HD and tripods go together, I loath the wibbly wobbly pretentious dogma look and have a great Vinten 100, perfect for the 200 Series, one of my existing Fujinon zoom commands fits this lens as does my Tiffin Matte box and all those lovely ND grads. My 12 Volt power supply works and so on and so on. However Hand held has it's place and this camera is ideal for that or slotting onto my existing Sony camera base plate.
Darren, Sony "get it in the neck" from me, but I'm just one of many, many broadcast cameramen who have been loyal to Sony for a lot of years and most of us feel we've been badly used and served by them. Let me explain. We generally believe that the Sony BVW 400 broadcast camera was the last model to be built to last. It's clear enough that from then on build quality was put well down the list. Sales, "multiple sales to the same customers with "Must Have" improvements that had been carefully left out of mark 1 were included and so we were obliged to buy. Personally I'd spotted this tactic way back in the 1970s and so never purchased the first version of any new Sony model.
It should be remembered that Sony in particular have a HUGE R&D department, by definition they are at least two models ahead of marketing and marketing know just when to launch spoilers.
So, following the disastrous Beta SX series, the DVW 700 WSP Digital Betacam took off, it was generally well made with the exception of the edge board connectors that cost a number of freelancers their clients, it was and still is a much better built camera that the DVW 790 series. Hire outfits here in Paris learned that the only sure way to stop the cards inside from flapping about was to pump silicone bath sealant into brand new cameras! BBC Engineering discovered a solution to the 700 edge board problem and insisted that Sony rebuilt this section of all the BBC cameras to their new design. Sony, who NEVER make a mistake, (much) kept quiet about this vital mod.
So, there you have it Sony? not if I can help it. The problems with CMOS, Rolling shutters, and less that great "Zeiss" badged lensed keep me away. A lot of people are talking of this lens fault.
I only buy what my clients will use, I've never felt the need to work for Mr Murdock and my American clients want other formats. They understand that I buy what is most used and give the rest a miss.
When Digital Betacam first appeared the BBC started insisting that their preferred freelancers bought one. Then The same BBC people started turning up with their BBC DV cameras - to shoot the b-roll you understand. Then we soon found out that these productions couldn't pay for a Digi suit on their budgets and were systematically dumping the Digi Betacam to Beta SP for edit and TX, no conforming.
So, beware the client who insists on YOU buying their latest whim, keep an eye on what they are actually using.
JVC? no they were very good, amazed but helpful. So an annoyance? Yes. But not to much trouble. Remember that I did buy this locally, it just turned up from Singapore, land of the dud, I was surprised.
If you do have trouble with a supplier (and I do admit that this was a cracker) They can't actually hide, no matter where they are there are ways of "coming up fast from under with a chain saw and time bomb on a short fuse".
If they have defrauded you, they have certainly defrauded a number of official departments too. Such is the power of "Whois" and the promise of a visit to their personal address by their own local tax office, Chamber of commerce, Customs and Police (all of which can also be located on the Internet, that 24 hours is generally quite long enough to have everything rectified. They become desperate to be seen as 'the first in the chain of victims' and ready to do anything to put things right. Be kind and let them do just that.
So RED are going Scarlet? That should please all those who splashed out on RED.
Yes technology is moving at the speed of light, too fast for its own good at times. Not all of it is either viable or actually wanted. I like JVC's attitude, I think they know exactly what they are up to.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 17, 2008 at 9:05:47 am
Stuart,
It was I that shot/edited etc. The Wildhearts stuff, yeh.
Nick (Director) and I shot 'The New Flesh' vid back in April
07 (on XDCAM), and whilst we were editing it the band went on
tour so we thought we'd pop along for a chat. Vodcasts were
filmed on Z1 at the time.
RE flimsy Sony cams, our (now) erstwhile XDCAM was a great/
eccentric-looking thing but we managed to write it off
(complete failure) and never knew how. It took a bump at some
point, which misaligned the motherboard, but there was never
outward sign of damage -- which was an insurance nightmare.
Not all cameras are built to last.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 17, 2008 at 12:20:46 pm
I thought it might be you who made that. My show-reels are on my site www.GluedTo.tv
We have rather different styles though. On my show-reel page you'll see the sort of work I do. The top middle picture link is to a documentary that just happened "out of the blue" on a Greek island at 24 hours warning. I was 'on holiday' with just a canon XM1 and tapes. No microphones (other than the little built in stereo camera mic), no tripod, no lights, reflectors, grads or other equipment apart from just one secret weapon - a true broadcast wide angle front element, adapted to go on this camera. Without that the interviews would have been impossible (couldn't have got close enough for usable sound).
All the other audio was shot as wild track on the island and re-laid in edit ( I have Adobe Premier Pro 1.5) The main music was lent to me free of copyright by the excellent Mikis Theodorakis who wrote the music for Zorba the Greek and is a great chap.
I say all this in full agreement with, and as an example of, the statement that the actual camera format is vastly less important than the story and the way you tell it. The answer to the question "What is the best HDV camera on the market now?" has to be "Not as good as the one that will be on the market tomorrow morning". And that the best one is the one that will do the job needed and will not break easily.
If everyone is screaming for HD - HDV and sharpness that you could cut your finger on, but at the same time they want "the film look"... then give them what they want.
The JVC GY-HD 201E (200UB). really does do that, the 200 series is built to take prime lenses it flips the image and has colour paint to correct possible lens aberrations at source; incidentally the 200 series does offer 1080i and outputs to both tape and to client owned recording formats.
If you are shooting rushes for immediate export this is really important. You don't want to lend/ hire them your hard drive or solid state recorder do you? Or to have to make out ATA customs carnets and hope you get your gear back. The idea is that I provide the images and the cables, and let them bring the other recording formats that they want with them.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 18, 2008 at 9:13:26 am
Hi Stuart,
I had a look at your site, streamed a couple of clips etc.
I wanted to download them to view them at home at my own
pleasure, but you disabled the function. Boo.
I've written/produced -- and will do again soon -- docos,
so our work is not so dissimilar. Like yourself, I've also
spent some time at the BBC: I was head of production for
an RTS award-winning BBCi channel for a year, and in that
time helped bring to broadcast-ready standard all kinds
of work: news, pilots, fact ent progs, short film, etc.
so I understand were you're coming from.
The 'What is the best HD/HDV camera at the moment?' question
is a moveable feast. One greenscreen test I saw recently
juxtaposed the EX1 with Red One and the results were
amazingly comparable. We live in exponentially-changing times.
I lunched with a Sky HD exec commissioner recently -- Emma
Read -- and she confessed to be lobbying her Sky engineers
to accept the EX1 as, I suppose, the natural successor to
the Z1. Sky only commission in HD nowadays, so the future's
looking bright for the EX1, it seems. That said, if the
EX1 is acceptable, then so should our (your) JVCs and 270Es
should be too, really. Are the three cameras comparable?
Who knows? Depends on the lens and what the scopes say,
I expect. As (I think) I said before, I've purchased the
2/3" lens adaptor for our JVCs and 270Es, but I haven't
tested them yet with, say, a J1-11, or maybe something more
filmic.
As you can imagine, I spent a LOT of time researching our
HDV budget for this year, and I didn't choose the EX1
because the lenses aren't interchangebale (although I
expect that to change), my bad experiences with the
(pinked-skinned) XDCAM, and basically, Sony's entire
haphazard approach to the XDCAM/EX1... The XDCAM HD 300
series was released and the cameras overcranked but they
were still a 4.2.0 colour space. Then they re-released the
XDCAM with 4.2.2 but they wouldn't overcrank; and after-
wards released the EX1, declaring it a member of the XDCAM
Family, but with non-interchangeable lenses. I gave up
on it all in the end.
All of that said, nice to make a French connection, by the
way. If we can help each other out, either side of the
Chunnel, let me know, okay.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 18, 2008 at 1:13:14 pm
Darren, Interesting. I have to admit that having worked with and purchased many, many thousands of pounds worth of Sony equipment, I no longer trust them, I think that as a company they have gone down the tubes. A fairly radical thing to say but that's what I think. As a long suffering user of their cameras over the years, I've watched the build quality and attention to customer service take a nose dive. I've already said a bit about this, but another horrific example was with CNN's NTSC Betacam 600 series. One of Sony's weakest points is the wiring and contact connection. Several Camera Engineer friends have pointed out that Sony cameras would probably be fine if they were kept in a cupboard and didn't move. I have gone on air many times with the sides off CNN's cameras and physically holding the connectors in in order to get a reliable image. You don't need that when you are going out live!
If I told you that some of those broadcast camera connections (that dry out and fall off) are actually, simply wiring joints Scotch taped into place from new.... you probably wouldn't believe me. But that's what they are.
BBC Sony Beta SX cameras that you have to take the whole side off to get the tape out, the BBC's Sony DV 500 series... what can one say about those? They tend to leave a trail of bits, doors etc behind you as you walk. The Audio XLR in plugs that look like a solid detachable part are in fact a very frail part of the main camera chassis. If some silly bod steps on a sound cable while you are moving forward it tends to rip the back end of these chassis off and that is basically the end of the camera.
There are serious doubts about the CMOS / Rolling shutter system. incurable "shot wobble" being one of the most serious. Then there are their new lenses... Focus is always important, critical with HD. There are a stream of blog complaints about the same "zoom in, focus, zoom back to frame and it pulls you out of focus". This may be an inherent back focus problem or just that the lens does mechanically pull itself out of focus.
If you work on the apparent theory that today's new model is obsolete before it hits the market. Then at least go for a camera that is really adaptable, works and is built like a tank.
The 2008 JVC 200 series are not designed to replace the venerable very well liked and current 100 series (basically for the pro market) but to augment them for different users different needs. The 200/ 201 is definitely aimed at high end production work with top quality lenses. The 250 series are basically the same but a studio camera with full cabled SDi out and remote gallery control.
Canon make great cameras, they made a mistake with the XL HD viewfinders and for some odd reason didn't correct that for this year's NAB. The lenses are OK, no better than that as they are still partly servo driven.
Ikigami? they always made good cameras, but I am amazed by JVC's price/ quality/ flexibility and for me they easily won the day. Tomorrow? well that might have changed everything of course.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 18, 2008 at 4:36:38 pm
God bless you no! I could be though I suppose. No I've been very successfully persuading my clients that they don't need the muddle of HD/HDV/ ProHD/ and their many 50 and 60 flavours. There have been just too many disasters happen, too much haste and not enough well considered reasoning. I have A PAL Sony Digital Betacam and such is it's quality (now that the BBC mod has been done) that it wasn't difficult to persuade my clients that they could transfer that to whatever they want and still have better images. That Sony Digital Betacam is a great broadcast camera giving beautiful colour rendition and the benefits of 2/3 chips and large tape.
So, I sat in the wings reading everything I could about HD/ HDV looking for a really (out of the box) flexible PAL/ NTSC switchable camera (I shoot for the Americas as well as Europe). I have to really come up with a serious "film look" so had to have 'the glass'. As either clients, or myself usually fly off around the World immediately after the shoot. I also needed a trusty, inexpensive tape delivery system - as well as the ability to feed my output to their choice of recording media too.
The GY-HD201e (PAL DV) and GY-HD 200UB (NTSC DV) - otherwise identical - seemed to be the answer. The Fujinon lens is excellent and almost given away. Technically it's what a broadcast cameramen are used to. There are even better Fujinon or Canon lenses available for it, and what sold me was the Arriflex PL mount optical converter for real Arri lenses and the camera's ability to flip the image at source to cope with real Zeiss, Cooke and Schneider movie prime lenses.
I will go in to bat for anyone who really tries hard to come up with the goods. Having now got this camera (and also read nothing but rave reviews), I believe that JVC have tried very hard indeed, so they have my vote, that's all.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 20, 2008 at 4:46:43 pm
Stuart
- Remember that JVC has produced several different models
- that aren't really upgrades or in competition with each
- other, they are each tailored for different needs...
- I've been very successfully persuading my clients that
- they don't need the muddle of HD/HDV/ ProHD/ and their
- many 50 and 60 flavours.
Do you think JVC releasing several different versions of
the GY is actually muddies their business model, confusing
loyal JVC customers? Filmmakers already tentative about the
cost of upgrading their workstations to HD/HDV, let alone their
camera, feel like a hostage to fortune in some respects --
deluged in too much choice?
- That Sony Digital Betacam is a great broadcast camera
- giving beautiful colour rendition and the benefits of 2/3
- chips and large tape.
This goes without saying, of course. Digibeta will be with
us for a few more years yet, although some of its workflow
components have been overpriced for a very long time: example,
the VTR still retails for $20K (even been-around-the-block-a
few-times models on eBay). An outrageous amount of money.
-----
Justin
'If you need to do these things, I would only recommend
an HDV camcorder that has uncompressed HDMI output paired
with an Intensity Pro card for capture.'
Even shooting in SD it's always worth shooting one's
greenscreen in HD and downconverting to SD for colour
keying. There'll be far less DV jaggies to deal with.
With regards to HD capture cards, we've all found out the
hard way that a workstation without a decent (£1K/$1K)
HD card is practically useless. Premiere CS3 isn't a
good experience without hardware acceleration; but with
it, and everything's as welcoming smooth again (almost)
as it was with the brilliant PPro 1.5.1.
Nice little film over at Adobe TV about The Bandito Brothers'
Premiere/HD workflow. It's mentioned that they're Premiere
workstations have all kinds of cards (AJA, Matrox, etc.)
running their machines -- some for offline, some for
online, and they're seemingly trouble-free. And lest we
forget the RAID array, of course. A lot of HD newbies
troubles seem to stem from the fact that 'something's
wrong' because their regular internal harddrives aren't
up to the job. The (sad) fact is, they're not.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 20, 2008 at 5:37:14 pm
Well no Darren, I don't think it's confusing at all really, JVC has a good website where you can chose clear comparisons and work out what your and your client's needs are. I like to have that choice and find it all quite thoughtful.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 20, 2008 at 9:45:09 pm
It might not be confusing to pros, but to newbies eager to
jump on the HDV train, eager to go JVC, being faced with
a plethora of models with incremental differences, but
exponential budgetary differences -- firewire in, firewire out;
firewire in, no firewire out -- I imagine it is rather
daunting -- not unlike going to Apple's site, say, and
customising one's brand new G5 octomac configuration. Like
I said, a hostage to fortune, too much choice. Add to that
your allegation that there's fraudulent GY models out there,
and it all gets a bit fraught.
Sony aren't innocent either, of course. Releasing the EX1
the same time as the (equally good) S270E muddies things
too. There's a slightly spurious industry-ratified
aura surrounding the EX1 that I'm not altogether comfortable
with. We heard it all before (from the industry) with
regards to the PD170 -- the BBC bought loads on them.
Shortly after we heard the same about the Z1. Z1-driven
productions are still the norm for terrestrial broadcasters
in the UK (at low-end budgets anyway) because, of course,
their investment -- (again, loads spent on Z1s) -- has
to pay for itself at some point. The EX1 is ergonomically
awful; it's off-balanced; its lenses are non-interchangeable.
I don't think the JVC is the answer, to be honest. I think
our S270E is, even though we use (and love) our GYs too.
Pic no.1. Leeds Rhinos v Hull FC, May 08. During a break the
camera guy (BetaSP) from the gantry left of us came over to
check out our cameras. He ignored the JVC. The pic sees me
demonstrate removing the S270E's solid state appendage. He
was very excited with it.
Pic no.2 BBC1 production Animals 24:7 (series 2). TX: Summer 08.
Z1 HDV in the field. To-camera links: Digibeta. Directed/
Series Produced by Nick (the chappie who usually directs our
music vids).
Pic no.3. And just for you: our JVC operator's token 'JVC GY in
situ shot'. Like you, he loves the camera. But, thinks the S270E's
viewfinder is 'crystal', vastly superior. Personally, I think the
JVC's 1/2" lens is slightly over-rated, too
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 20, 2008 at 10:46:44 pm
Well, HD/ HDV is not something to dive into anyway. You do need to find out what your needs are, why you need it, if you really need it and why you wish you hadn't bought it! What you say is true of all good cameras.
I will have one last dig at Sony and say that they appear to be targeting technofreaks who 'have to have it' simply because it's there and apparently the latest thing. Like Microsoft they appear to have adopted the "sell it, let the punters identify the problems and release MKII, which by definition the same technofreaks who 'have to have it ... simply because it's there and apparently the latest thing.... Will buy it again.
The advice from an old lag is OK. Do you actually need it? Have you been cynical enough to search threads for the negative aspects of the gear you "must have"? If not, stay away until you have.
TRUE COST....
What percentage of buyers leap into HDV without knowing the true cost of it all? The computer/ hard drive/ and edit software upgrades? I would hazard a guess and say most don't understand the implications of cost or compatibility.
I stick with my answer, no, the JVC site is very clear. The JVC ProHD series is admirably explained and aimed at very specific users, with the appreciated idea that you are only sold what you actually need.
If you don't know what you need, you are not a "Pro". Nothing wrong with that, you just go for one of the more appropriate cameras.
If you don't understand the real dangers of CMOS/ Rolling shutter cameras then back off, if you want true 24p, buy it, not a 24f lookalike.
The original question was " What is the best HDV camera on the market now?" We've identified that as a "how long is a piece of string?" a "How much does it cost to make a documentary?" question. The answer to this one is once you've learned how to write and plan a shoot, got an end user with a budget and once you have firmed it all up, the answer to the question is "the one you actually need and can actually afford".
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 21, 2008 at 9:42:22 am
A quick add to that. Remember what that great cameraman William Shakespeare said in "The Sony Merchant of Venice" (II, vii):
Portia is a beautiful, virtuous, wealthy camerawoman who is being wooed by numerous HDV camera manufacturers. She is not free to decide on her own whom she will go with because her late father stipulated in his will that she must get hitched to the dealer who correctly picks the one casket (out of three) that contains her picture. One casket is gold, another is silver, and the third is made of lead.
The Cut price camera store of Morocco is one in a long line of suitors who tries to win Portia's hand, and he decides that it would demean Portia to have her picture in anything other than a gold casket, and so he chooses that one. As he unlocks it, he is dismayed to find a picture, not of Portia but artifacts of Death, with a message written in its hollow eye: "All that glisters is not gold; / Often have you heard that told. / Many a man his life hath sold / But my outside to behold. / Gilded tombs do worms enfold." With a grieving heart the Camera dealer takes hasty leave of Portia, who is happy to see him go, saying, "A gentle riddance..... now bugger off!"
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 21, 2008 at 5:06:34 pm
'I will have one last dig at Sony and say that they appear to be targeting technofreaks who 'have to have it' simply because it's there and apparently the latest thing. Like Microsoft they appear to have adopted the "sell it, let the punters identify the problems and release MKII, which by definition the same technofreaks who 'have to have it ... simply because it's there and apparently the latest thing.... Will buy it again.'
See, I would have thought an old lag like you would have gone for
the EX1 (which is getting re-released soon, of course, as EX3).
It seems a lot of you are. It's getting buckets of exposure over
at studiodaily.com. S270E reviews are a bit thin on the ground --
which I quite like, actually. I like to think it's quietly
going about its business unbothered by hyperbole.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 22, 2008 at 12:28:18 am
You winding me up D?! No chance, You've answered your own question, it was obsolete before it hit the market. I don't need a tapeless camera for reasons already stated, I really don't want a CMOS/ rolling shutter camera, because of the image wobble in certain (rather a lot) of moving camera conditions. I shoot a lot from helicopters and I can see all to well what would happen - there are examples of it out there on the web, I'm not wild about the partial exposure problem, the leaning uprights on a pan, the Sony compatibility issues ( as discussed elsewhere on this site) or Sony's lens issues. EX3? I wonder why they binned EX2? EX4, 5 or 6 anybody?
CMOS "Exmor". About right that! If they meant Exmoor is a bit bleak, no place to get lost and they've misspelled it. If they mean EXMORE then that means the more bit is "Ex" or "used to be, but is no more." I will go with that I think.
No, I'm very happy with what I have, it offers what my clients specify, which is sort of important.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 23, 2008 at 12:13:26 am
Of course I'm not winding you up, mate. I think, though, that
CMOS vs. CCD (or any other type of new chip around the corner)
is its own topic. Interesting you should mention helicopters.
There's a HD doco in development we've been approached to get
involved with. Too early to go into detail, but it'll require
lots of sexy landscape, mountainous photography. I'm lobbying
the doco's director to budget for at least one day's worth of
steadicam and copter. Location: Mountains of Mourne and
Cooley Mountains, Ireland. Will keep you posted.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 23, 2008 at 8:40:15 am
Well D, don't think of doing this helicopter work using a CMOS chipped camera, as far as I know they are still all fitted with an electronic rolling shutter. I've seen examples of what happens with vibration and it really isn't a pretty sight, the image "wobbles" and is completely unusable. Apparently there's no edit plug-in that will fix it either, SteadyMove won't correct it.
I can recommend a pilot called David Clem, he's based at Dalcross, Inverness so not a long locating flight.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Jun 24, 2008 at 10:34:49 am
RE plugins: After Effects is getting better and better at
rescuing shaky footage, although I tried something recently
which impressed me a little. It's called Mercalli. Have only tested
it on SD footage so far.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 24, 2008 at 11:55:17 am
Yes, However, this "wobble" as it's called, is more of a rolling wave, it is not the usual shake but a reaction caused by it with the electronic rolling shutter system and quite devastating to the shot. In any case if ever someone worked out a way to correct it, you would not want to lose the intended original quality, or to spend the time and money on the post involved. It's always best not to start with a major fault and have to try and cope with the cure.
CMOS and the Rolling shutter may "improve" (as I think Sony Said at NAB?), but I noted that they didn't use the word "cure". I haven't spotted that yet.
There is quite a good article at http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/ You should read it through carefully, there should be links to clips showing the results, it is worth looking at them. Other reports coupled with this and I walked, (no ... ran) away from the current batch of CMOS/ Rolling shutter cameras.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Ryan Atkins on Jun 24, 2008 at 3:07:10 pm
Well, I say its all in how much you want to spend. On the prosumer end, the Sony HDR-FX1 is a great camera (I own it and love it), the JVC Gy series is a professional grade, hence why its under the professional area of the JVC web site. These cameras can shoot in 720p, true 720p, but, you're going to be paying a whole lot more for it than you would a V1U or FX1. It also depends on your production needs I guess and personal preferences.
I say the FX1 is the best (its really a toss up with the V1U, etc.) prosumer camera (some retailers consider it professional), while the JVC GY series are better professional cameras.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Stuart Nimmo on Jun 24, 2008 at 7:50:33 pm
I think that is exactly right Ryan. If you really do need it, get it. If not then don't. I've raved about the JVC Pro range and in particular mine. I particularly like JVC's attitude and care but that is not to say that the ProHD series is the right camera for everyone, for those at that end of the market they are amazing value, for those who don't need the particular abilities then it's not and you'd be better to find what you do actually need and save money. I would not recommend the JVC GY-HD series to anyone who is planing a bit of close Camera cache for example, it is too big for that and the FX1 might well fill all your needs, in fact it too might be too big. But then it has a CCD block too. On the other hand you can't fit Arriflex prime movie or Hasselblad Zeiss lenses to it. On the other hand you might not want to.
So there you go. There is no "best HDV camera on the market now".
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Nick Righton on Jun 20, 2008 at 5:01:06 am
I use and love the Sony EX1. The images shot in SP mode (1080i60 25Mbit HDV) are vastly superior to the images shot with our FX1 or HVR A1U. The FX1 is the only HDV on the market with 1/2inch cmos sensors. While you can't record to tape in camera you can send the HDV via firewire to any of the sony HDV decks. Besides HDV you can shoot in XDCAM EX mode with 35Mbit in a variable framerate, progressive, multi resolution field of options. The EX1 will also do time lapse recording. The internal audio is fantastic (especially with little not no moving parts on the camera). The attached Fujinon lens is amazing. If you want more options ( like interchangeable lenses stc ) check out the up and coming Sony EX3. Even though the EX1 (and EX3 for that matter) can do so much more with their XDCAM EX codec, they are still the BEST HDV cameras on the market.
I wish I was good at one thing rather than average at many, but oh well.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Matthew Baker on Jul 16, 2008 at 3:19:38 am
I would like to take a moment and thank everyone for sharing their experience and opinions, it has been a very enlightening discussion. At the moment I am currently leaning towards the JVC line of HD cameras, but am also considering the HVX200.
Would anyone by chance know how the JVC HD & HVX compare?
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Ryan Atkins on Jul 16, 2008 at 12:55:12 pm
Well, I once worked on a music video where the HVX was used, though I didn't use it. I thought it worked well. Not much i can say about it because I have little to no experience with it. I have though actually held and operated a JVC GY series camera, the 250U to be exact. It has great quality and records in 720p and 24p. It it though probably more expensive, but worth the cost. They're comparable.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Richard Ramos on Nov 17, 2008 at 8:31:47 pm
Hi all. This forum has been very interesting reading for me. As a cameraman who has gone from Sony 8 all the way up to DVCPRO 50, going through a JVC mini DV, the exceptional Canon XL1 and the superb Betacam SP 400 (I am not really into DVCAM), I can only say that people here don't seem to pay much attention to the fantastic Canon XAH1.
I recently did a shot with it and found it to be a terrific camera. It feels great as a hand held camera, the viewfinder can be turned into a black & white one, it has an iris ring on the lens which HELPS A LOT!, and its picture quality is good too. It is also far cheaper than the Z1, EXs, etc.
If what you need is a HDV camera to go on the road quickly, with no fuss and still have great picture quality, the Canon XAH1 is a very good proposition.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Darren Edwards on Nov 18, 2008 at 11:25:35 am
I don't mean this as rude as it might sound, but there is nothing
exceptional about eschewing DVCAM nor the XL1. The XL1 needed a lot of
money spent on a good lens to get anything useable out of it. I quite
like the shiny black sexiness of its HD cousin -- and have heard nothing
bad about the camera -- but only insofar as I think Spider-Man looks
better in black.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Richard Ramos on Nov 18, 2008 at 2:05:02 pm
I beg to differ concernig the Canon XL1 an its original lens. Till this day, PD150 or PD170 or Z1 users look in amazement when I show them XL1 footage taken under manual settings. I don't mean to be arrogant or totally naive but The Canon XL1 with its origial lens was and still is a superb combo.
But since HDV is what occupy us. I haven't heard anything bad about Canon's HDV range either. Istead people are not short of praise for the top of the range Canon HDV. Its frame mode seems to be liked among documentary makers.
Re: What is the best HDV camera on the market now? by Todd Terry on Nov 18, 2008 at 2:14:40 pm
[Richard Ramos]"But since HDV is what occupy us. I haven't heard anything bad about Canon's HDV range either."
...and you're not likely to, because they really are great cameras. I have been shooting with the XLH1 since they first came out, and absolutely love it. After more years in the biz than I care to count, and shooting just about every format out there from Hi8 to DVcam to Beta to 35mm film, the H1 is my favorite camera of any I ever bought or used.
Although the camera is popular, I was a bit amazed that the thing didn't catch on like absolute wildfire. I guess it's because at the time of its introduction a couple of years ago it it was by far one of the more expensive HDV cameras on the market and not that many people gave it a shot. But it was and is worth every penny.
T2
__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com
