Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution?
by Peter von Puttkamer (Gryphon)
on
May 28, 2008 at 3:44:48 am
Can someone suggest the very best way to output V1U 102024p images- for use with HDCAM sized
images? The Apple Pro-Res 422 system of capturing through firewire is OK- but results in slightly grainy, overly processed looking images- that seem to have some "lag or motion blur" to them.
How about going through HDMI output on the camera- into SDI- KONA card conversion (upres to full HD)
Has anyone tried this?
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on May 28, 2008 at 5:31:02 pm
IMO the best all digital way to capture using the V1U is to use the HDMI out into the Convergent Design HD-Connect MI converting to HD-SDI into a Kona card. I believe this is the best way to use hardware to uncompress the HDV signal to a full 1920x1080 resolution with the addition of error correction to eliminate tape dropouts. If you see grain it won't change with this workflow. I have found that I need to use the setting display on my HDV cameras to ensure the correct setting for gain, shutter speed, iris and white balance.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on May 28, 2008 at 5:57:40 pm
THanks that seems like a great way to go; I was just going to order the AJA HA5 converter HDMI-SDI
for around $500.-; will that do the same job as the Convergent Design Box?
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on May 28, 2008 at 6:21:44 pm
I'm sure the AJA product is as good as any but it lacks deck control from firewire to RS-422 to the Kona. HDMI doesn't carry time code so if you go with the AJA converter just know you won't have original time code or deck control to work with. The MI also allows for cross conversion between HD formats and down conversion to 4:3 SD cropped in a real time capture. I believe the CD MI is a much better choice. IF PRICE IS AN ISSUE GO WITH THE NANOVIEW
http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_nanoView.htm
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on May 28, 2008 at 7:45:08 pm
I have the Sony original M25U and it does have the HDMI out connection.
There are newer updated Sony HDV decks (M15A, M25A and the new M35) coming out soon that will read most if not every HDV recorded format that you may be interested in before you go out and buy something. Here is what the new decks have.
The M15A has Component
The M25A has Component and HDMI
The M35 has Component, HDMI and HD SDI
and all of these new units can read everything from 720p 24fps to 1080i 60.
The original M15U has Component
The original M25U has Component and HDMI
The 1500 has Component, HDMI and HD-SDI
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Jun 3, 2008 at 6:32:15 pm
Hi Michael-
I'm waiting for my convergence box you recommended. In the meantime- I have a question.
Why is it when I load in the 108024p footage thru firewire apple pro res 422 HQ- the images look
jaggy and seem to have missing fields. the property info also says it has captured in 29.97 not 24.
Why is that? Will that change when I load up via the convergence box thru the AJA Kona Card?
thanks peter
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Jun 25, 2008 at 10:59:46 pm
Sorry, I missed this question until now. Because you are recording to tape the progressive frame needs to be split in half (2 fields) to fit on the mini DV tape, interlacing the 24p as 60i. Most tape based recording systems are 60i from Sony. It is now 29:97 or 30 frames interlaced with a 3:2 pulldown adding the extra 6 frames. If you shoot 24pA mode on the V1 final cut 6.0.2 or above can remove this pull down when capturing as Pro Rez. You will need the last Quad PPC G5 or an Intel unit to capture to Pro Rez in real time.
Using the HDMI -MI -Kona route will be the best all digital way to transcode.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Jun 26, 2008 at 3:24:31 am
Interesting updates- thanks michael; I'm still waiting for my convergence box. I did not shoot 24pa
with the Sony V1U, but 108024p (I think this is all it has actually). So far- when I've loaded this in thru firewire- even capturing apple pro res 422 HQ- it gives me a rather strange picture; first loading is such that I cannot input tape numbers (no standard log and capture mode- but some kind of auto pro res mode) and even though I've selected 24p- the information on each file reads 29.97; and the pictures look oddly jumpy- almost like a bad transfer from 24. Also images look like they're missing information- blocky and not smooth picture quality...like a lower res capture. So I'm hoping the convergence box can do this.
It sounds as if coming out of a HDV Sony 25 deck HDMI- SDI (convergence) thru the Kona 3 card- at
24p- to get true 24 (23.98?) right?
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Jun 5, 2008 at 7:02:39 am
The Convegent box has 422 control, plus other advantages over the AJA box. A couple of the Sony HDV decks have HDMI- they are rentable if you don't want to buy.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Ryan Walker on Jun 25, 2008 at 5:06:30 pm
Hey guys. What if you use the Hard Drive recorder with the V1U? Is there a work flow for that, or is there a way to record uncompressed onto the drive?
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Jun 25, 2008 at 11:15:41 pm
To get uncompressed video your camera needs to have component (analogue), HD-SDI or HDMI (Digital). To record this uncompressed signal to a hard drive you need to have a tower with a (matching connection) capture card and proper storage. Convergent Design has a better solution with the XDR Flash HD-SDI recorder and the Nano Flash. Both of these units only record digital HD to very inexpensive compact flash cards.
Uncompressed will be available as an option in the future for the XDR unit running 4 of the more expensive compact flash cards together as one.
If what you really meant to ask was..... how can I record lower compression levels for better quality to a device??? then here it is.
http://www.convergent-design.com/
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Jul 19, 2008 at 5:17:26 am
Hi- finally took delivery of the Convergent design- HD connect MI box. I have the new firmware update;
I'm having some trouble downloading a true 23.98 from the Sony V1U camera- through the HDMI (firewire control) thru to SDI- thru to the Kona 3 card; the 23.98 setting is not reading. only 29.97 gets a decent picture; do I need to set something other than "native" in the software for the convergent box?
I'd appreciate if you could walk me thru the tech specs required to make this happen. Looking for a 108023.98 Apple Pro Res 422 HD output at the end of the day- onto a 23.98 HD timeline.
thanks
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Jul 19, 2008 at 2:52:41 pm
I don't believe the MI will remove pulldown, however the 24p from the V1 adds pulldown and there is no difference in the look. If you really need 23:98 I believe you could use Cinema Tools to remove the pulldown, or capture native HDV with FC 6.0.2 or newer with an Intel Mac directly to Pro Rez 24p setting. I can't recall if you need to record 24p or 24pA to achieve this and it won't be a full raster 1920x1080 it will be 1440x1080.
If you plan on delivering for broadcast or DVD then I wouldn't worry about removing the pulldown because it will need to be added back for these exports. The 24p look is in your 29:97 material. IMO the only time you need to remove the pulldown is when it is for film.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Jul 19, 2008 at 5:18:51 pm
Thanks Michael. The problem I'm having is- we have to fit this material onto a 23.98 timeline; We are delivering 23.98 masters to the broadcasters. When I import at 29.97 shot at 24p in the V1U- it seems to stutter/ have this weird effect - so it's jamming a 29.97 w/o pulldown into a 23.98 timeline. I am working with Cinematools to extract, as well.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Jul 19, 2008 at 5:43:52 pm
Peter
I just run a test with my V1U, to get Pro Rz 24p 1440x1080 you will need to record 24pA. When I captured the 24p to Pro Rez it came in as 29:97. So if your footage was recorded with the 24pA mode you can quickly bring it in as PR 24p 1440x1080 and export as 1920x1080. Other wise you need to deal with Cinema Tools.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Aug 6, 2008 at 11:01:05 pm
Hi Michael- I have followed your advice and am using a HD Connect MI by Convergent Design...coming out of my Sony V1u cameras HDMI out, plus firewire for TC control; then into the MI box- out with 422 connection and SDI into my AJA Kona 3 breakout box- and ultimately the card.
I've been having some issues and would like to run this by you, if you don't mind.
1. It doesn't seem that this configuration will give me a good stable picture- when selecting
1080-23.98 Apple Pro Res 422 HQ. It just doesn't like the 23.98. - creates a jittery picture on and off the 23.98 timeline. I shot at 24p in the camera and was hoping this would let me extract it, plus have a better picture.
2. I am trying the 1080 Apple Pro Res or DVCPRO HD at 29.97. The picture looks better- but needs to be rendered (green) in my FCP 23.98 HD Timeline. Unfortunately- FCP detects all these "dropped frames" when inputting- and stops every few seconds to create a new file. (Just as the firewire method of loading this in- created like 200 files for a 30 min. segment.) So I've decided to turn off "make new clip" on timecode break. Then I get a warning after (even though picture looks fine) that the frames have been dropped and timecode won't be accurate. What gives?
3. I have tried unsuccessfully to "reverse telecine" these shots- experimenting with AA, BB, CC
and all the other key frames for the conversion from 29.97 to 23.98. Not too successful.
So what's the best way to extract this so-called 24p from the HDV tape shot on a Sony V1U.
Help please.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Aug 6, 2008 at 11:05:47 pm
As an aside, the 24p in a 60i stream is how 24p has been done for quite some time....nothing "so-called" about it.
To make this work flawlessly for a MOW we recently finished, we used Sony Vegas to import via Convergent Design, it properly saw the media as 23.978, we output it as mxf data that FCP loved. It was so much easier than screwing with ProRes or Sheer. Viva la Bootcamp.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Aug 6, 2008 at 11:14:46 pm
Thanks, yes, most of our productions for the major broadcasters- Discovery HD, Animal Planet, etc... are shot on Panasonic HDX900- and that too works in 60i to create 23.98- I think Panasonic really has this art down. We're inputting some "C" camera footage with the V1U into our show and looking for the best way to do it- via convergent design and ultimately Final Cut 6. If you're saying the mxf data is a good way to go- perhaps we should convert into that format. Do you think it's worth picking up the Sony Vegas software- run it on the Mac- then output the mxf data into FCP- as you say; sounds interesting.
But your input was firewire into the Vegas- not thru a Kona Card?
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Aug 6, 2008 at 11:32:44 pm
Vegas can't read the Kona card, but the Xena does. We ingested both via firewire and via the Xena HD SDI, and couldn't find any appreciable difference.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Aug 7, 2008 at 1:35:35 am
I would suggest shooting 24PsF and work with 60i from there. If time base editing is really an issue this will give you the 24p look and conform for broadcast.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Aug 6, 2008 at 11:54:24 pm
Good question...plus Vegas seems to only be Windows supported; I'm Mac all the way.
My material shot at 24p - I need to extract the pulldown...smoothly somehow.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Aug 7, 2008 at 12:01:48 am
Why do you need to remove the pulldown? I would suggest finding Shane Ross on the FCP forum or on the Apple FCP forum, he or someone else can surely help you as I haven't needed to remove pulldown for any reason as yet.
http://forums.creativecow.net/forum/applefinalcutpro
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Aug 7, 2008 at 12:09:28 am
Vegas doesn't care if it's PA or not. it's the only app that doesn't care, actually...
23.976/8 don't matter to Vegas for sampling either. Mixing 50i, 60i, 30p, 25p, 24p (animation) and 23.97whatever don't matter. IMO, it's the ULTIMATE conversion tool for up/down converting and conforming framerates.
PC only...
As far as "Why?" Because that's what the director called for, and how he prefers to work. He's got a long experience shooting HDCAM, so this worked well for him. Can't use his name in conjunction with this post, but if you read my book on HD, he wrote the introduction. :-)
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Aug 7, 2008 at 1:57:21 am
I don't have an issue with the $549 it having to deal with Windows
Windows, just like OSX, is a tool. End of story. It's not a lifestyle, it's not a thought process, it's a tool.
I'm ever so grateful for Bootcamp, because it allows me to carry one laptop vs the two I carried for years. My back and bank account are grateful.
Now...ANY TIME you want to compare workflows of Vegas or the new Premiere with FCP...VERY happy to oblige. And if you want to count the number of times I've had problems with various functions in FCS vs any of the Windows apps...happy to go there, too.
They're just tools. Each has issues, Apple seems to grow more and more issues while Windows has less and less. We've converted the entire audio side of our place to Windows, BTW, and will never, ever look back after ditching SloTools. And we produce hundreds upon hundreds of finished audio hours every year. For us, it's about reliability and speed. Apple rocks too, but I feel it's absurd to believe it's superior to XP any longer. Hasn't been for quite a while. Course, I don't live an "iLife" either. "MyLife" is more important to me. ;-)
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Michael Palmer on Aug 7, 2008 at 3:29:39 am
Tool it is....... What Microsoft OS do you recommend and why?
I have heard that a Mac can run windows Vista better than a PC, perhaps you can shed some light? What laptop do you carry in the field?
FWIW I find your comments are heavy to those using Final Cut and not all Mac users can be labeled as iLifer's, but perhaps this is what you think of me because I have been helping others with HDV, XD Cam, Convergent Design while using the Final Cut system. It would be great to contact you off line, I have my contact info on my profile. I don't believe you do.
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Aug 7, 2008 at 4:18:18 am
Michael, I also use FCS. And enjoy it. I get incredibly tired of the "us vs them" mentality that seems to come from one side or the other heavy on "the one side." Now...Vegas vs FCP? Any time. Vegas vs FCS? No contest, FCS wins.
Aside from our full-time production work in varied areas, I also generate approximately 50 event videos per weekend in my skydiving work. They are approx 10 minutes long. Do the math. It's not possible to do in FCS, FCE, or iMovie. Can't be done. Several have tried. Screw SDE's, we're doing SHE's, and lots of them. Sometimes I've got 6-7 projects rendering at once with one ingesting and one or two in editing. On the same machine, sometimes my MacPro running Bootcamp, which runs XP very nicely, but had periodical brain lock with Vista.
We regularly do shootouts with a significant number of broadcasters and news orgs. No one has yet to beat the speed. It ain't the operator, that's for sure. :-)
I carry a MacBook Pro with Bootcamp and XP, and have a MacPro in my office with Bootcamp/Vista, and run both halves about equally. Both sides have some duplicate apps, and by way of example, CS3 kicks butt on the PC side whereas it's less fast on the Apple side. Can't use OnLocation on the Apple side, can't use Ultra on the Apple side...Can't use Motion or DVD Studio Pro on the PC side, either.
Of course, can't forget the number of training machines we own as well...somewhere around 100, divided roughly 70-30 PC over Mac.
All that said, and back to point...there are software apps out there that can do a LOT more than anything suite or singular than available on only the Apple platform. Can you toss 12p, 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i, 60i 640 x 480, 720 x 480, 960 x 1280, 1440 x 1080, 1920 x 1080, 2K, native HDV, Sheer, Quicktime, WMV, VC1, MPEG2, MPEG1, animated gif, .mxf, Sorenson, AVCHD, 4:2:2, 3:1:1, 4:1:1 4:2:0, 4:4:4 on the timeline at the same time, previewing to an external monitor over analog, firewire, SDI, HD SDI without rendering a frame or conforming on ingest and not dropping frames? I can.
I'm well aware of what I can't do in this particular scenario too.
I have heard that a Mac can run windows I have heard that too.., but took the time to prove it to myself, and it isn't so. Sure...buy cheap crap parts in a budget system...MacPro *can* run Vista better than the cheap crap machine. There will always be fools that will compare a $400.00 PC to a 4K Mac. No surprise there. Compare a well-built, name-brand part PC and it will win at best, and be at parity at worst. For less money. At least now on the Apple platform we can buy whatever parts we want to add, with Intel procs. Very nice. Much better than the days of farm cards and NuBus, which is where I began my Apple journey long ago. I even have a IIsi that is still in use for automation. In any event, my company can't afford a "head in the sand" posture. Our livelihoods are dependent on knowing the tools.
Vista and XP are no more nor less "tools" than Leopard, IMO (if I correctly caught your double meaning). Viewing any of them as such is simply being caught up in "iLife" or "M$Life." In any event, I believe they're both here to benefit "my life" and my productivity. Nothing more, in my opinion. If that sounds threatening or acerbic...I don't know how to respond, outside of the sentiment explained in the first paragraph.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Sony V1U HDV Camera up conversions to Full HD resolution? by Peter von Puttkamer on Sep 5, 2008 at 11:44:49 pm
Hi Douglas- I'm following your advice to ingest HDV 1080-23.98 footage into Sony Vegas, then
output to .mxf; then I'm trying to get it into Final Cut. What's the best way to do this? FCP help suggests having quicktime convert the .mxf file into a quicktime- then import into FCP. Haven't figured out a great way to do that. I've tried using Sony's XDCAM importer- which has .mxf format files- doesn't work either. Any suggestions?
