Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I
by Doug O'Connor
on
Apr 11, 2008 at 8:49:20 pm
We are trying to decide upon the best frame rate for shooting a feature Doc with the Sony Z7U. We have been shooting at 108024P, and will master to HDCam at 1080i.
A major cable outlet has told us they would prefer us to shoot at 1080i, because their engineers dont like the strobing and motion artifacts they claim are inherent in the format at that frame rate.
I have maintained that from a creative perspective, it looks better, and since we may do a film out down the road, it would make things much easier. They would prefer we do our "film look" in post.
Does the Z7U capture in a true 24P, the same as a larger format like DVC PRO HD, as opposed to Sonys cinelook 24P on past models. Does the arguement of these engineers have merit.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Todd Terry on Apr 11, 2008 at 9:10:33 pm
[Doug O'Connor]"...their engineers dont like the strobing and motion artifacts..."
All I will say is that I would rarely let an engineer make an purely aesthetic decision for me.
If your particular format is indeed giving them some technical headaches, that's one thing. But if it is just that they don't like the "look"... well that's another matter entirely.
The engineers get to vote on one of those things... but not the other.
T2
__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Doug O'Connor on Apr 11, 2008 at 9:21:36 pm
Thanks for your comments.
The creative part is our decision. The film out part is easy, if the sony is shooting 23,98 at 60, and I guess that is at the heart of my question. Does the Z7U shot a true 24P, or is it something else. I want to respect the engineers, if I am going to have real technical issues with this frame rate for air.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Jeff Carpenter on Apr 11, 2008 at 9:26:15 pm
>>I want to respect the engineers, if I am going to have real technical issues with this frame rate for air.
There are no technical issues. Whatever you shoot, you'll be giving them a 29.97 tape in the format they want. If you shot 60i, it's easy because it matches. If you shoot 24p you'll be giving them a tape that has pull-down added. Either way, the tape is the exact same for them.
So all they COULD be complaining about is the creative part. And as Todd said, you can probably ignore that aspect of their thoughts.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Doug O'Connor on Apr 11, 2008 at 9:35:34 pm
What the engineers are saying is, speicific to hdv shot at 24p - and mastered to 1080I, as opposed to say HDCam shot at 24p. So my question is, is there a difference between the HDV 24P and the Sony Z7U 24P. I had been told in the past sonys cineframe was not "True" 24P, and my assumption is that this mode has caused problems for them in the past.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Jeff Carpenter on Apr 11, 2008 at 9:43:20 pm
Ah.
Yes, as I said in my ohter post, your camera uses Sony's Cineframe mode.
I'm not too familiar with it, so I can't say what it does, exactly. All I know is that the V1U camera replaced it with true 24p with pull-down. So whatever Cineframe is, Sony decided to drop it on their newer HDV model.
In regards to THAT, trusting the engineers might make sense. I have no experience with it so I couldn't say.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Jeff Carpenter on Apr 11, 2008 at 9:14:19 pm
Well, first off, the Z1's 24 fps mode is what Sony calls Cineframe mode. I don't fully understand it, having not owned a camera like that, but I don't believe it offers you any advantage in terms of going to film-out down the road. It's simply a 24 fps 'look' on 1080i footage.
To assist in going to film, you would need a model that records 23.98 footage with pull-down flags that your NLE can then later remove. The V1U does this on HDV and I think most of the XDCAM models offer this too.
You have 2 issues to confront here:
1) The network. I find it hard to believe there's a cable network out there that doesn't want to air anything shot on film. Or are they just saying they don't like 24p HDV? Either way, it sounds like their problem is with poorly shot footage, not a particular format. But does it matter? Will they acept it or not? If they say no, stop reading right now. There's your answer. If they'll take it, keep reading.
2) You need to find the company that will be doing any potential film transfers down the road. Getting their advice is very important. Depending on the camera you use (not everything available on all cameras, mind you) you can shoot this as normal 60i, 60i with Cineframe mode, 24 fps with pull-down flags on 60i, 24 fps without flags on 60i, or 23.98 files on a hard drive. And probably other options I've forgotten.
I'll bet you that the people who put video onto film have very strong opinions about what's best. (I have no clue there.) I would take their advice very seriously if you're even thinking about using them down the road.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Doug O'Connor on Apr 14, 2008 at 12:14:56 pm
Thanks Jeff,
I don't want to beat this one to death, but I just want to be certain before I go to the matt on this one. I think the outlet wants to set precedant on this, and I really want to defend the HDV 24p format, because I like it, and believe it serves the needs of alot of doc filmmakers.
What I want to confirm is that the Z7U no longer uses Cineframe, which may have been causing them problems, and instead shoots at a true 24p w/ pulldown, just like an XD Cam, or Varicam at 24p.
If that is the case, then I think I can defend its use.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by charlie steiner on Apr 14, 2008 at 10:52:02 pm
the Z7 does not record in "Cineframe" --- it records true 24p. BTW there's a very active Z7 forum at dvinfo dot net, where at least 1 person has posted footage captured and edited in 24p.
- charlie
Located in the heart of Fabulous Downtown Jersey City
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by Jay Hufford on Apr 29, 2008 at 2:09:39 pm
Actually the z7u will record both 1080 24 native progressive and 1080 24p over 60i. In the IN/OUT REC menu under REC TYPE select progressive for 1080 native p or interlace for 1080i. Under SCAN TYPE select the frame rate. Be advised that many HDV capable decks cannot handle the 1080 native p but only 1080p over 60i, so the engineers may have a point. I have some tapes that were shot 1080 24 native p and my post workflow cannot handle it. I'm looking for a solution to this problem now, and yes it should be as simple as adding a 2:3 pulldown, but a prominate posthouse in NYC wants to charge $750 per tape to crossconvert and says the tapes must be run through the teranex. I have a post on this forum seeking advice on a cheap and easy way to do this.
Re: Sony Z7U 1080 24P vs !080I by michelle kim on Dec 7, 2008 at 6:40:47 pm
Hi,
I have a similar post to this thread. I am capturing footage using the z7u. Footage was shot with the camera in 1080i24p. My device setting in easy setup was HDV Firewire Basic NDF, which is what they suggested. The clips that I have already captured play fine in final cut, but when i play the quicktime clips in the capture scratch, there's a slight stutter to them, and the audio is out of sync. I've tried different variations of the device control -- is my setting wrong? Is it okay to have clips that don't play correctly in QT, but play fine in fcp? I've stopped capturing because I wasn't sure I should.
