New HDV system set-up
by Liz Smith
on
Apr 1, 2008 at 8:52:59 pm
Hi folks-
I've done a bit of research, but I'm having a hard to time deciding what to set-up for this system, as I have no experience with HDV.
I've got a new Mac G5 running the latest FCP and I need to ingest footage shot on a Sony HDV camera and from an HD DVCPRo deck. I also need to keep options open for a possible move later this year to only DVCPro or maybe even tapeless Panasonic.
So - what's the most cost-effective solution? Which HDV deck (25U/HDMI or 35U/HD-SDI)? And should I get a Kona card or stick with firewire for now?
Re: New HDV system set-up by Michael Palmer on Apr 1, 2008 at 9:54:02 pm
Well lets go back and find out what new g5 you have? FYI Apple doesn't make G5's anymore and they have Mac Pro Intel units that replaced the G5, so what do you have?
If you have an Intel unit you can go with any Sony HDV unit with an HDMI port and then purchase the Black Magic Intensity Pro capture card and transcode to DVC Pro HD. This would be an all digital transcode, however the Kona LHe would be another way and you could capture via component that would yield digital to analogue back to digital. Some say they prefer this.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 1, 2008 at 11:13:09 pm
Thanks Michael! My apologies - I keep forgetting they changed the name. I've got the new intel MacPro.
I looked at Kona and BM Intensity cards - Is the price difference b/c of HD-SDI versus HDMI? The Kona card is roughly $1700 and the BM card is $350 - so there's got to be a major difference in what they can do.
Also, with decks, there's a >$1000 difference between the HVR-M25U and HVR-M35U and the more expensive one is also HD-SDI (rather than HDMI). Is that the only difference?
From what I understand, I can edit HDV on my system via firewire, so why get a card? Is it all about render times and monitoring, or is there an actual quality difference?
If I want to monitor what I'm editing in FCP on an external plasma/lcd TV, I need the card, right? Or do I need a second card? The plan right now is no monitor, just editing in FCP on two apple 23-inchers. But I'm hoping to an HD monitor at some point.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Michael Palmer on Apr 2, 2008 at 12:50:43 am
HDMI is a poor mans digital signal much like firewire is. It is an uncompressed signal that uses a multi-conductor cable that carries an extremely high quality video and audio signal. SDI is a professional single conductor system that is the same high quality but sends audio, video, timecode, and more over a signal conductor. For the ultimate monitoring signal for broadcast quality the professional solution is SDI, if you want to monitor a non-broadcast quality monitor you can still have a great looking digital signal at an affordable price using HDMI. As for better HDV? you need to understand that HDV is already in a digital form and can be edited natively using firewire to capture. If you are going to avoid HDV or Mpeg-2 Long GOP and transcode to say DVC Pro HD or Pro Rez there are ways to do so with software and then there are real time hardware solutions like HDMI out to the Intensity for capturing/transcoding to what ever you want. Just know that the HDMI port decompresses the 1440x1080 HDV signal into an uncompressed 1920x1080 signal so you can make it what ever you want during capture. If you are looking a short term investment then I would look into the portable HDV deck/walkman, Sony GV-HD700 HDV Video Walkman VCR.
You will need / want a capture card for monitoring HDV/HD with FCP and either the Intensity or the Kona will output either and HDMI or Component signal for an LCD, the only issue here is the LDC will need calibration and I'm sure if you do a search you can get help with making the LCD as close to what the source material really is. I hope this helped.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Bahram Gueranfar on Apr 4, 2008 at 9:33:22 am
HI Liz , Hi Michael,
Michael if you recapture your HDV footage via HDMI or HD-SDI, other than avoiding the long-gop issues, will the quality of the footage improve in any form since we are not using the firewire compression?
Kind regards
Bahram
http://www.imaginaryforms.com
14 Quai Antoine 1er
MC 98000
MONACO
T: +377 97 777 111
F: +377 97 777 112
Re: New HDV system set-up by Michael Palmer on Apr 5, 2008 at 3:43:31 pm
The deck/camera using hardware to decompresses the digital HDV signal from 1440x1080 4:2:0 to an uncompressed 1920x1080 4:2:2 signal when outputting HDMI. During the process there is an error correction control that is not present when using the native firewire method that certainly corrects any tape dropouts. I'm sure the hardware is creating the best possible recreation of color space that was tossed out during the original HDV compression to tape. So is this making it better? I don't have an answer, but I do know I can transcode completely digital using the method.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 7, 2008 at 11:38:36 pm
Thanks for the info, Michael!
I read that the new 8-core Mac Pro and FCP Studio 2 can ingest HDV via firewire as ProRes.. is that true? Does that mean I wouldn't need a card to get ProRes? How about DVCPro HD?
Re: New HDV system set-up by Bahram Gueranfar on Apr 8, 2008 at 9:43:54 am
Txs Michael for the info.
I will try to do some tests in the weeks to come (as soon as I have time). My footage is in black and white but I will also test some color documentary footage as well. Will keep you posted and try to post image sample comparison.
Liz,
For hdv to prores you have the full article here :
Re: New HDV system set-up by Michael Palmer on Apr 8, 2008 at 2:25:39 pm
Transcoding to Pro Rez in real time via firewire can be done with the Quad G5 and any Mac Pro Intel unit. To transcode HDV in real time to DVC Pro HD you will need a third party hardware capture card or you could download Stream Clip, but I believe you will lose the original timecode.
http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-mac.html
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 8, 2008 at 4:17:59 pm
Cool. Now comes the obvious question: ProRes or DVCProHD?
I imagine that if I'll also be importing footage from a DVCProHD deck, and I may migrate to P2 in the future - I should transcode the HDV to DVCProHD? That would seem to make the most sense.
Hmm - I'm going to add a DVCPro deck soon - are the choices between HDMI and HDSDI the same as you laid out for HDV? Are do I absolutely need the HDSDI card in that case?
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 8, 2008 at 6:46:37 pm
Thanks Bahram! I'm definitely leaning towards ProRes now...
HDV-firewire-ProRes just looks like too much trouble for what it's worth. If I did ProRes via HDMI or HD-SDI capture card - does that allow for batch capture from HDV tape?
And, would I capture my new DVCProHD footage into FCP as ProRes as well to keep everything on the same codec? What about DVCProHD through firewire? I imagine it has the same limitations as HDV through firewire, so HDMI or HD-SDI is the way to go.
I really appreciate the guidance on this one! Hopefully the posts will be helpful to others as well.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Bahram Gueranfar on Apr 8, 2008 at 7:16:23 pm
Liz,
My experience is very limited, but one thing i know is that the purpose of your set up or project combined with your budget should determine your workflow (at least that is how i work).
What are you aiming at?
Bahram
http://www.imaginaryforms.com
14 Quai Antoine 1er
MC 98000
MONACO
T: +377 97 777 111
F: +377 97 777 112
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 8, 2008 at 7:47:32 pm
I'm looking to set-up as smooth and efficient a workflow to edit both DVCProHD and Sony HDV as possible. I'd say that in general budget is not as important as time. I'd like to minimize rendering, transcoding, and troubleshooting the HDV-part. I don't need the highest-end by any means, but I can afford to skip low-budget work-arounds.
Does that clarify at all? :)
After all the research and help, I'm thinking of one of the three following options:
Option A:
HDV (M25 deck) via firewire into native HDV - ProRes timeline
DVCProHD (AJ-1400) via firewire into DVCPro HD - ProRes timeline
No capture card
Option B:
HDV (Sony GV-HD700) via AJA HD10A HDTV (HD-SDI out) into ProRes
DVCProHD (AJ-1400) via firewire into DVCPro HD - ProRes timeline
HD-SDI capture card
Option C:
HDV (M35 deck?) via HD-SDI into Pro-Res
DVCProHD (AJ-1400) via HD-DSI into ProRes
Kona card - HD-SDI
Re: New HDV system set-up by Michael Palmer on Apr 8, 2008 at 11:37:27 pm
Liz
Where is this media ending up, what is your delivery? Why do you want to mix HDV and DVC Pro HD if you have a choice? Why not shoot HVX-200 or XD Cam EX1 and forget the capturing process?
Option C is the best but you may not need it. I use the M25 deck together with a Convergent Design MI (HDMI-HD-SDI converter) into my Kona LHe card and it works great keeping the original timecode during the transcode. One thing to keep in mind is the Pro Rez with option A keeps the HDV 1440x1080 size file, with options B and C the HDV files are decompressed to 1920x1080.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 9, 2008 at 2:58:17 am
Well, I think I finally have a decision - hopefully. I'm think I'm gonna go with:
HDV Deck: HVR-M15U
Adapter: AJA HD10A (Component to HD-SDI)
Capture Card: KonaLHe
Codec: Probably ProRes (maybe DVCProHD -I'll have to play around and will depend on future camera and format choices.)
Thanks everyone so much for your help and advice! I'll try to post later on about how things are working out...
Re: New HDV system set-up by Liz Smith on Apr 9, 2008 at 3:31:14 am
Hi folks,
I thought this might be handy for others, too - I just priced out some HDV decks and options (using BHPhoto as a price leveler). I laid out several different routes just to see the kinds of price differences between firewire, HDMI, and HD-SDI capture. I obviously can't include every piece of hardware or every option, but it's something. Let me know if I'm missing something major or if my math is off. :)
Re: New HDV system set-up by Rick Albertson on Apr 9, 2008 at 3:34:28 pm
Though I must admit some ignorance to all of these different codecs, I recently completed my first HDV project (http://www.kidsatrisk.com/sahac1.html).
HVR-Z1U Camera
HVR-15MU Deck
Intensity HDMI Card
LCD Monitor
MacPro Quad-8
Final Cut Studio 2
Have been unable, however, to print to video. Any help appreciated.
Re: New HDV system set-up by Jay Hufford on Apr 30, 2008 at 3:54:55 pm
Liz,
Be aware that only the M35U can handle the newer HDV 1080 native progressive mode from the Z7U and the S27 cameras. It can also handle Cannon's progressive modes (24f). The M25U and the M15U cannot handle these new native progressive modes, neither can the HVR 1500 decks.
