I've read that the HVX uses old technology with the P2 cards. Something out them being PCIMIA(or something like that). I briefly read about it online and can't find where I read it.
So...why is it that people say it's old technology.
Re: HVX-old technology by Derek Antonio Serra on Feb 18, 2008 at 12:25:09 pm
The P2 cards are indeed old technology requiring a PCMIA slot to dump your footage to a laptop. Most new laptops come with the Express card slot which the Sony EX uses, so you'll find it difficult using P2 cards with a new laptop as part of your workflow. P2 cards are still hellishly expensive as they are proprietory and I think they max out at 8GB, although 16GB might now be available. Express cards are a lot cheaper and come in higher capacities. The current large Express card takes 1 hr of HD footage using the Sony EX, vs 16mins on the Panasonic P2 card.
Add to this the fact that the HVX uses a pixel-shifted SD chip on steroids as opposed to the EX's full HD 1/2" chip and it's a no-brainer when it comes to making a new purchase.
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Couldn't let this one go by as this is the sort of post that internet myth is built on. You can buy PCMCIA slotted computers today, in fact the last count I did on the Sony computers there was about 7 models had not just the Xpress card slot but also the PCMCIA(P2) slot. It isn't necessarily an outadted tecnhnology, but rather a tried and true one.
It is interesting that once processes move to computers everybody wants technology that is less than tried and true. How many would want that if it were a video tape machine? I mean every 6 months you have a device that has not been extensively tested in the worst of situations. How many would want that if it were a camera?
In the P2 card there is technology that is tried and true. As far as speed is concerned I have had my stop watch out and the transfer off of the Xpress Card and the P2 is virtually identical, and it all depends on the machines that are doing the offloading to slow them down or speed them up. The P2 device is a die casting, read rugged, wrapped around a RAID 0 array of memory chips. They have been sat on, stepped on, dropped, fallen into water, washed in the washing machine, taken a dive into a snow bank, taken into the desert, and after all of that they still work.
No people do not intend to do any of the above, it just happens. The good news is that it still worked. Tried and True. I call it a mature technology, the PCMCIA.org said there is no more reason to develop for the CardBus slot, that's a fact, but it never said that the CardBus was no longer valid.
Keep in mind that the computer slot is only one means of offloading the card. An inexpensive device like the DuelAdapter gets you into the Xpress Card slot, if that is where you want to go. But there are many devices that will also get you the opportunity to offload the footage, including your own camera.
P2 is here to stay. Works fine, lasts a long time.
Hope this helps,
Jan
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Re: HVX-old technology by Rob Grauert on Feb 18, 2008 at 2:14:59 pm
Thanks. I understand what both of you guys are saying. If I had to choose, which i don't cause im still a student, but if i did, i'd probably go with the EX because of the larger, native sensors, the fact that the cards hold more data, and i like the whole lens deal it has going on.
Jan and I have never really agreed on the merits of the HVX200 and P2 in general. I suppose my negativity comes from when I attended the launch of the Panasonic camera, and the Panasonic promotional slideshow openly slated the HDV format heavily, stating that HDV suffered from inherent dropout problems, and was so heavily compressed that it was essentially unbroadcastable. At a later P2 presentation for their ENG camera they slated XDCAM as being inferior to P2, subject to dust damage and unproven in the field.
I just don't hold with that kind of snide salesmanship. Time has shown HDV to be a pretty robust format - I've experienced very little drop-out and the Sony camera's have been great, and footage supremely broadcastable. A friend was lead DOP on a 16 camera XDCAM production of Survivor SA and had only good things to say about the format. Robust, not prone to skipping, very cost-effective, etc.
So my lack of support for P2 and Panasonic is personal, based on dislike of their sales pitches, where they always seem to try and rubbish Sony and JVC. With the advent of the EX, their product is looking pretty long-in-the-tooth and I'm sure that we can expect an updated camera in the near future from them. Express Cards are the future, so maybe Panasonic will go that route as well.
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Re: HVX-old technology by Tim Kolb on Feb 18, 2008 at 5:29:40 pm
[Derek Antonio Serra]"the Panasonic promotional slideshow openly slated the HDV format heavily, stating that HDV suffered from inherent dropout problems, and was so heavily compressed that it was essentially unbroadcastable. At a later P2 presentation for their ENG camera they slated XDCAM as being inferior to P2, subject to dust damage and unproven in the field.
I just don't hold with that kind of snide salesmanship."
I agree with you here,,,and I've had some exchanges where I'm arguing against just that sort of thing from Panasonic as well (right here at the Cow, believe it or not)...
I also think that camera head, recording compression, and media configuration are separate issues and you can only do an informative comparison by treating them as such.
Re: HVX-old technology by Tim Kolb on Feb 18, 2008 at 3:21:11 pm
[Derek Antonio Serra]"P2 cards are still hellishly expensive as they are proprietory and I think they max out at 8GB, although 16GB might now be available. Express cards are a lot cheaper and come in higher capacities. The current large Express card takes 1 hr of HD footage using the Sony EX, vs 16mins on the Panasonic P2 card."
Actually, P2 cards have been decreasing in price fairly regularly...and they max out at 32GB and the 64GB card was just announced as coming in the fall.
A Google search reveals that B&H Photo has 16 GB SxS cards for around 875 USD and a P2 16 GB card is running around 850-900 USD from various vendors. Effectively, the cost is the same. when you look at the fact that the vast majority of HVX-200 users shoot 720 24PN mode, their effective data rate is only 40 Mbps...the EX-1 has a top data rate of 35 Mbps. Capacity comes very close to a wash with the most utilized shooting modes. The capacity issue is more relevant when the HVX jumps to a 1080 frame size, which in the PN mode runs about 80 Mbps
I'll surrender the higher density sensors to the EX-1.
As far as obsolete technology...if you use a PC and edit AVI files, you're using obsolete technology. This filetype is technically no longer supported or advanced by PC or OS manufacturers...and it's been so for a number of years. "Obsolete," in this case, is a Sony viewpoint...like when they tell us that HDCAM is 1920x1080, 4:2:2.
I have my share of issues with some of the sweeping comments made by Panasonic regarding this camera and its specs, but you can't necessarily take Sony's rhetoric as being any less self-serving. They're trying to sell you something.
I still work with HVX200 footage on a regular basis, and the duel adapter works just fine.
See? I really am an equal-opportunity curmudgeon Jan...
Heh heh. Point taken Tim. Here in South Africa we're somewhat behind the curve, and the 16GB cards are hard to come by I'm told, never mind 32 GB. Also, for some reason PAL countries pay a premium for both Panasonic and Sony products, so the P2 cards cost about 40% more here! Glad to see that Jan is as astute as ever in defending her product - which I do respect.
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Re: HVX-old technology by Rob Grauert on Feb 18, 2008 at 8:04:35 pm
You mentioned drop out...I thought i read somewhere that dropout has pretty much been eliminated now that everything records to cards now....? whats the deal with that?
Re: HVX-old technology by Vincent Becquiot on Feb 18, 2008 at 9:13:59 pm
My guess is that Panasonic will make an adapter as they move to newer format cards that will be backward compatible.
Saying that P2 is old technology can only work vs the EX1 which obviously just came out, and copied Panasonic's idea very well. You can't put a tape in a notebook, which deoan't make it obsolete.
The fact that notebook come with an express card slot is a mear convenience of the moment and probably won't last long either. External readers are cheap.
I did put P2 to the test for a while and never had a problem, I'd like to wait and see for the EX1.
Re: HVX-old technology by Kevin Shaw on Feb 19, 2008 at 6:32:33 am
Jan makes an interesting point that P2 is a well-tested technology, but it's also true that the PCMCIA interface is gradually being phased out. ExpressCard allows for faster transfers and many users are seeing this in comparison to using P2, plus the file sizes are smaller per minute so transfer is also faster on that basis.
Also consider that both P2 and SxS are specialty items which are unnecessary for standard video recording compared to fast standard flash cards. The new Sony Z7U camera is attracting a lot of attention for its option to record to CF cards costing a fraction of the price of the specialty cards, and CF card readers are widely available for a few bucks. In the long run standard flash-based recording is much more likely to become commonplace than either P2 or SxS, which simply cost too much. (The expensive formats will stick around for those with deep pockets who want maximum performance, but they'll get sidelined by less expensive options.)
================
Kevin Shaw
Always Memorable Videos
Kevin, do you have evidence that ExpressCard's transfer speed is faster than P2, because Jan from Panasonic states:
"PCMCIA(P2) isn't necessarily an outdated tecnhnology, but rather a tried and true one....As far as speed is concerned I have had my stop watch out and the transfer off of the Xpress Card and the P2 is virtually identical..."
Either you're mistaken or Jan's tests are faulted. Jan also claims that PCMCIA technology is not outdated.
Your point on CF cards is important, although I'd imagine that one would want to use top quality cards to avoid problems.
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Re: HVX-old technology by Don Greening on Feb 19, 2008 at 7:11:24 am
[Derek Antonio Serra]"Either you're mistaken or Jan's tests are faulted. Jan also claims that PCMCIA technology is not outdated. "
Since I've no experience whatsoever with P2 transfer rates I can't comment on the speed of the transfer. What I do know is that a 16 gig SxS Pro Memory card holds roughly 50-55 minutes of content if the highest quality setting is used with the PMW EX1 which is a setting of 1080i 30 or 1080P 30. Using the Express 34 slot in my Mackbook Pro it takes slightly less that 5 min. to transfer the media.
Perhaps someone can draw a comparison between that number and a transfer time for a 16 gig P2 card.
Re: HVX-old technology by Kevin Shaw on Feb 20, 2008 at 1:27:53 am
In my tests on standard PC laptops, data from a P2 card transfered at roughly 1 GB per minute via PCMCIA while SxS was at least twice that via ExpressCard. This makes sense given that both SxS and ExpressCard are newer technologies with faster technical specifications.
As far as CompactFlash is concerned, it's offered more than enough bandwidth for standard HD recording for some time now, and is used by millions of people worldwide for digital photography. Having more advanced memory cards is fine for those who can afford them, but I'd rather have a camera like the EX1 which uses stock cards at much lower prices - which Sony has hinted they will eventually allow.
================
Kevin Shaw
Always Memorable Videos
Re: HVX-old technology by George Socka on Feb 22, 2008 at 11:20:57 pm
Re PCMCIA availability.
Just purused the Dell website. Of the hundreds ( 50s??) of models there, only the industrial Latitudes support old style PCMCIA. Otherwise everythig is Express slots only.
Re: HVX-old technology by Don Greening on Feb 19, 2008 at 7:01:35 am
[Kevin Shaw]" (The expensive formats will stick around for those with deep pockets who want maximum performance, but they'll get sidelined by less expensive options.)"
Consider too, the emerging technology from Convergent Design that takes the lower priced compact flash media to the next level with its Flash XDR Data Recorder. CD has had this product up on their web site for quite a while now and I'm not quite sure why it's not available for sale yet.
Also, FYI the PCMCIA standard is actually a governing body, or consortium if you will and isn't actually a type of flash card interface. The P2 and Express 34 standards are both technology sub groups that fall within the PCMCIA standard. Within the Express 34 sub group you'll find Sony's Express 34 flash media technology which they named the SxS Pro Memory Card.
Re: HVX-old technology by Ron Shook on Feb 19, 2008 at 6:20:05 pm
Don,
[Don Greening]"Consider too, the emerging technology from Convergent Design that takes the lower priced compact flash media to the next level with its Flash XDR Data Recorder. CD has had this product up on their web site for quite a while now and I'm not quite sure why it's not available for sale yet."
I could be wrong, but I believe I read a week or so ago that XDR has started to ship in small quantities, probably a sort of beta production run to see how it performs. The possibilities of this little 1 lb box facinate me when coupled with the EX1. The only down side of this device assuming it's reliable and other than it's hefty $5k price is no 10 bit codec. Part of the reason it took a little longer is they changed the specs from 2 CF card slots to 4 in the middle of development.
To whet the appetites of those who didn't follow your link or realize all the implications, I'll point out some things about it. First, CF cards of the quality necessary cost around $200 for 16GB cards, less than 1/4 the current cost of SxS cards. It takes the HDSDI output with I believe up to 4 channels of audio, encodes in MPEG2 and wraps in MXF and the hardware encoder built in is licensed from Sony. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same encoder as in the EX1 or XDCAMHD camcorders, but it is not limited to 35 or even 50 mbps codecs which are the limits of XDCAMHD because of slow optical writers. You can record 4:2:2 long GOP MPEG2 at 100 mbps, a codec that is better than any production codec in significant use except HDCAM Senior, far better than regular HDCAM, DVCPRO 100, or even Panasonic's new H264 100 mbps codec.
Coupled with the excellent lens and imagers of the EX1, you've got a video recording system that can rival or beat any camcorder south of $100k in 80% of your shooting situations. I say 80% only because some shooting situations call for ease and speed of use and/or the best low light capabilities that only a full sized 2/3" state of the art camcorder can deliver. In those situations, top of the line quality images aren't as important. I don't think that there is anything stopping someone putting the XDR on an XDCAM 355 or any large camcorder with HDSDI output, but its natural fit seems to me to be the EX1.
Ron Shook
Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit*
Re: HVX-old technology by Vincent Becquiot on Feb 19, 2008 at 4:18:40 pm
As I understand it, the difference between these "professional" cards, and the CF/SD media, is that they are the equivalent of a RAID system, which means they contains sevral SD cards (in the case of P2), in case one fails, thus the higher cost.
