Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help!
by Buck Forester
on
Jan 26, 2008 at 3:14:44 am
This is driving me crazy. I can't seem to wrap my mind around what's required in the whole editing workflow, despite countless hours perusing forums, Googling, and reading mfg websites. I've never done this stuff so I'm having a hard time grasping things. I'm reading about Aja Kona 3 this, Aja lo HD that, Blackmagic Multibridge Pro and Eclipse, Blackmagic Intensity and Intensity Pro, Blackmagic HDlink and HDlink Pro, Motu V3HD, Matrox MXO, etc., etc., etc. AHHHHhhhhh. I try and figure out which does what, blah blah blah. They all seem to claim they're sent from God and do everything better than something else. It does this and this and this, and no other card does... but the other card says it does too, even better. It's drivin' me flippin' crazy.
Here's what I plan on doing... any help would be AWESOME!
I do not plan on doing any client work (such as weddings, corporate videos, projects for companies, etc.), all production would be by me and for me. My camera is a Sony EX1 and a Sony HC7 B camera. The HC7 won't see substantial use, so I don't think I need a separate deck. So the vast majority of my footage will be shot on Express SxS cards. I don't need various input options. I want my footage to be high enough quality to meet the demands of HD channels such as Nat'l Geo HD, Discovery HD, Travel Channel HD, etc. Not that they'll be knocking on my door demanding my footage (but hey, you never know!), but I want that as an option. That's the main reason I went the Sony EX1 vs. the Panny HVX200. Higher resolution. I want to create hd nature stock footage. I will also be creating my own wilderness adventure footage, which when I get my wilderness adventure photography/videography website up and running, I can sell some DVDs as well as having the option to sell Blu-ray when it becomes more standard. I will be running a new Mac Pro, two 3.0 GHz quad-core chips, 12GB ram, Caldigit HDPro 2.6 TB raid, NVIDIA GeForce 8800 card, 30" and 24" Apple displays, editing with Final Cut Studio. For monitoring I will most likely get the Matrox MXO (waiting to see if the GeForce 8800 is compatable... so far it's not been tested with MXO).
Question: Do I need a capture card for editing this stuff? Can I just do everything in Final Cut Studio and burn the footage onto Blu-ray or DVD? Will the Matrox MXO be sufficient? I keep thinking I've got it figured out until I read about some card and think, wow, maybe I need that too. Do I need a Kona or Fiona or bologna or some magical black contraption? I'm about ready to pull the trigger on my purchase (unless I put the trigger to my head first) and I'm starting from scratch and I want to do it right and not kick myself on my very first project. I'm trying not to be ignorant but I can't help it, I just can't grasp all that I need. THANK YOU for any help. If I become a billionaire through my productions, I will remember each suggestion and reward those of you who respond with 1.2 meeellion dollars. That's American dollars, though, so it's not worth much these days.
I say yes. by Michael Palmer on Jan 26, 2008 at 3:55:35 am
OK Buck
I'm not going to push you into a Kona 3, But I will recommend at least a Black Magic Intensity Pro and if your budget can handle it you should consider the Kona LHe. The dual monitor display doesn't work well for monitoring for me. So even if you get an LCD HD TV with HDMI you will have a more professional approach to your post production workflow. I estimate this BM Intensity Pro and a 32" LCD from $1100 on up. I think it is extremely important to work with a dedicated monitor, even if it isn't broadcast quality. I can tell you having a real HD-SDI capture/monitor card has been a life saver to me. I can only recommend the AJA Kona LHe as AJA has stuck by me and offered up new replacement cards then there was variables and endless tech support that makes this company the best.
If cheap is in your future then start with the BM IP but the Kona LHe is the solution. You can still go with a starter LCD HD TV using the component connection from the Kona or IP.
Re: I say yes. by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 5:04:29 am
Michael, thanks for the response!
Are you saying I should go with a Kona LHe and a Blackmagic Intensity Pro? I read what they both do and I don't really know what it means in the real world.
I don't want to go "cheap". I do have the resources to get what I need, but I want to make sure I really need it and whether it makes a big difference to spend the extra $$.
I'm torn between using the Matrox MXO and a second Apple 23" display vs. a dedicated super duper flipper dipper monitor. I was looking at the JVC DT-V24L1DU if I go the monitor route. I've heard great things about the MXO. For my home studio I'm also splurging on a Panasonic TH-50PF10UK 50" plasma so I can see my footage big.
If I just go ahead and get the Kona 3, does that solve all my worries? Does it do everything the Kona LHe and the Blackmagic Intensity Pro does, and then some? Remember, I don't need to worry about various input options from clients. I'm basically just gonna dump SxS card footage into the computer and edit via Final Cut Studio, period. The JVC monitor seems to run in the mid-$3,000 range. A Matrox MXO is about a grand so is it worth an extra $2,500 for the JVC? Plus whatever card I need to run it? Man, at first I thought I could buy a video camera and a computer and run the world from my desk, ha! Now I realize this is a serious investment. But I'm gonna do it, it's my passion to capture the wilderness in high-def video and photos.
Re: I say yes. by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 5:41:18 am
Thank you again... I'm thinking that is the route I should take. Along with the hd monitor, I still am purchasing two Apple monitors - 23" and 30". I also do Photoshop editing for my still photos and I want the dual monitor setup. Can I have three monitors running (not necessarily all at the same time) with just the Kona LHe card? Again I apologize for my technical ignorance.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Jim Gunn on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:29:42 am
For HDV footage all you need is a $10 firewire card, and capturing/editing software. I edit hundreds of videos every year, and I use simple firewire external drives (No RAIDs) and a cheap firewire card for capture.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:40:31 am
See! This is the stuff that confuses me! Ha! Thanks for replying to my question.
So, Jim, if you had $20,000 to spend on an editing system (computer and all capturing/editing/outputting) for the Sony EX1, what you get and how much $$ would you have leftover, if any? It's posts like yours that make me think, in my ignorance, I'm WAY overspending for what I'm doing. I just want to shoot video on the EX1, get it into my computer and edit it and end up with 1080 HD quality footage. If I could save, oh, $10,000, that would be cool! My listed gear purchase is listed above. What is unneeded? Are your firewire external drives fast enough to edit 1080 footage? Is a Caldigit HDPro RAID overkill for what I'm doing? Are capture cards overkill? What's your monitoring solution, if any? Are you doing this professionally with output that could be broadcasted on an HD channel? I'm all ears!
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:52:52 am
Firewire drives are plenty fast to edit either the 1920 or 1440 MXF files from the EX.
Any NLE, including the really crap NLE's will output quality enough for broadcast. For giggles, we once produced a :30 spot for a traveling broadway show on Sony Vegas Movie Studio, a 69.00 application. It aired nationally on many stations. It was shot on HDV.
A lot of the answers depend on how you plan on processing the footage. If you feel you'll need to do a lot of color correction, then there is nothing wrong with planning for high end fibre channel raids and an entirely uncompressed workflow. If you're planning on shooting for style and won't be doing heavy color correction/retiming, then you'll be fine with a non-uncompressed workflow.
IMO, you don't at ALL need a card of any kind for working with the EX. We do have AJA cards in both our Apple and PC systems, and they're unused for this workflow. Having HD SDI output is a plus if you have an HD SDI capable monitor, but you're not going to find that in your 10K budget with computer.
Choosing the app you want to work with first is the first step you need to take. Everything else will begin to fall into place after that.
If you're working for yourself, no one should be able to tell you that X app is better than Y application. It's ENTIRELY personal preference. If you're working in a networked or multi-editor environment, there are some strong arguments to be made for Avid or FCS workflows. But at the end of the day, the output is the same from all the apps, outside of what you might do in the post process.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 7:10:18 am
Thank you, Douglas!
As for color correction, I'm not sure if I'll be doing a lot of that or not. I have experience with photography and editing for color in Photoshop (calibrated with Spyder Pro device), but I have no idea about hd video and what needs to be done, if anything at all. If the EX1 produces nice colors out of the box, then I don't see a lot of need for it. I do like clean but saturated nature images (I love Fuji Velvia 50 film for photography, which is a color-saturated film), and I use graduated neutral filters a lot for balancing light in the wilds, so I'm assuming I'll have some color editing required. I also don't know if I need to edit compressed or uncompressed. I read about it a lot, but I've never seen it done. I wish I could just see how all this works in person first, but I don't know of anyone who has this kind of equipment or does hd editing. I have budgeted at least $20,000 - $25,000 for just the editing gear and software (new Mac Pro, monitors, FCS2, RAID, etc.) but if I could do it on an $7,000 Mac Pro and a couple harddrives with Final Cut Studio and save $15,000, I wouldn't complain! I wonder if the guys who are doing the high-end gear with the Aja 3 cards and all that are also video pros who are working with all kinds of clients for input/output solutions, etc. This is just gonna be little 'ole me videoing and editing my own stuff. I'll do it if it takes $5 grand or $25 grand, but I just want to do it wisely.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Uli Plank on Jan 26, 2008 at 9:31:18 am
The two important things you'll need to consider are not only getting your footage into the computer, but also how you'll be getting it out again. You'll need no expensive cards for getting footage from the EX-1 in, and as long as you use it's native format, you won't need big RAIDs or anything else.
Even if you want to do grading in Color (if you opt for Apple's Final Cut Studio), you can use the ProRes codec and work with a single fast SATA drive or a small RAID. I've been doing quick changes on location with a MacBook Pro (the older model with ATI graphics), a small e-SATA RAID (300,- €) and a calibrated monitor from Quatographics (about 5.000 €, my most important and most expensive piece of hardware). The director and DOP where bouncing with joy all over the place, having worked with film before…
BTW, you can work with graded ND filters and the like on a EX-1 too. It's highly recommended, considering the lower latitude of video vs. film and the massive compression. Plus, you can tweak saturation and other parameters in the camera. But with Color you can do things you could never do in a camera.
That said, you may need an output card to record onto a tape machine for delivery to clients (Matrox MXO is doing a great job), and you may want to invest into a RAID5 for 3 or 4 K$ not as much for speed, but for safety. Shooting on cards, I don't even trust these and make a backup all the time, so I'm happy with my small RAIDs.
Regards,
Uli
Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 10:06:14 am
Thanks, Uli! I value your comments.
I think I'll go ahead and stay with my decision on the Caldigit HDPro 2.6 TB RAID system. It's an investment, but I know it'll give me piece of mind and plenty of speed.
Which capture card to you use?
I Googled the Quatographics monitor and it was tough to find much info about it. It sounds like you place a high value on your monitoring, which is where I keep going back and forth in regards to a solution.
If I get a Kona card, either the Kona 3 or Kona LHe, and the JVC DT-V24L1DU, that's about $6 grand for the card and monitoring. That's a whole heckuva lot more than just $1 grand for the Matrox MXO (I'll have the Apple 23" display regardless). I can absorb the extra $5 grand if it makes my editing and monitoring significantly better, but not having seen either solutions in practice, all I can do is read specs and read forums. Trouble is it seems people have different opinions on what's needed and what's not.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Jan 26, 2008 at 4:28:51 pm
Trouble is it seems people have different opinions on what's needed and what's not.
That's absolutely true, and part of the answer to that needs to be deciphered based on what they're actually doing vs what they think.
In other words, there are a lot of measurebators in various communities, when in truth, opinions come from folks that don't own the gear, don't do the work, don't actually deliver, and in some cases, none of the above.
That's where it gets really scary.
Short story:
Here on the COW, and over on another community board, a new name showed up under an alias. He inquired about using the Sony V1 camcorder along side a 35mm cam. He was told over and over how it wasn't possible, but one of his good friends kept telling him it was, and that he'd done it. Ultimately, this led the cinematographer to do some test work with the V1. He determined that the information that he received from the communities was based entirely on FUD, most of it from one particular manufacturer, and he shot the Superbowl commercial and a theatrical release using the V1 next to a 35mm. I was his AD on one of those shoots.
Fast forward, another person, fairly well known, Dean Devlin. Dean was told by a manufacturer that the V1, and now the EX, couldn't be used along side a Genesis. He was the first to use a Genesis for a major release, and shot the entire movie "Flyboys" with that camera. He recently completed production on "Librarian" and "Legacy." One (for broadcast) was shot entirely with a set of V1's, the other, shot with V1 and Genesis, and a theatrical release is currently being produced using EX's along side the Genesis. In "Legacy," (Starring Timothy Hutton), at least 20% of the shots are from an HDV camcorder. And no, Sony did not give him the cameras, Sony wasn't even aware of his projects.
And it's all edited/timed/mastered/delivered from a desktop computer with no special drives/RAIDS/hardware.
Dean can buy whatever he wants.
It's hard to wade through all the opinions, no doubt. At the end of the day, it's going to come down to what makes sense for what you're doing at the moment.
You're likely going to be ingesting dozens of hours of content that will boil down to 22, 50, 60, 90 mins of content to be delivered. To whom have you sold this content? Have you already sold to Discovery? Then they'll guide you on what you need to know for Delivery. They have a delivery document. Ask for it. If you've already sold to Natl' Geo, they too, have a delivery data sheet.
In many cases, you'll be required to deliver on HDCAM. Does it make sense to buy an HDCAM deck? IMO, no. We hire a service bureau to do our once-a-month required Xfers to HDCAM. It makes MUCH more sense, because we're not delivering episodics. Flipside is that we can deliver to BD, HD files on HDD, 4:2:2 on Beta, 4;4;4 on disk, SD on disc etc with nothing else. We're not often delivering for film-out, so that eliminates certain concerns. We do have HD SDI monitoring in two rooms. We don't have the best monitors money can buy, and when we need those monitors, we know where to go. We do have the best audio money can buy, because that's the foundation of our work. Other side to that is you might have the best audio gear in the world, but you park it in a bedroom converted to a studio. You've just turned your "best audio gear in the world" into a pair of JBL plastics from the local CrapUSA store.
There is _so_ much more to this discussion than just the hardware and software, and lots to think about with regards to your workflow, monitoring, what you already know vs learning curve, and delivery requirements that needs to come first. Figuring out the hardware becomes fairly easy after that.
Sorry for the long post, but IMO, you're going about this acquisition the wrong way.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:03:20 pm
Hey Douglas Spotted Eagle, I really appreciate your comments! I am taking them to heart. I often check the profile of those who respond and your resume is indeed inspirational and impressive.
You say I'm going about this the wrong way. I have no grounds to say you're wrong, that's for sure. My problem is I don't know the right way or the wrong way and I'm coming to the conclusion that no matter how much tech stuff I read over and over, it doesn't make things any clearer for me so I'm driving in circles.
No, I don't have any contacts with Discovery, Nat'l Geo, etc., for hd stuff. I have contacts with Nat'l Geo Adventure Mag for photography, but that's a whole different thing and I realize it. My immediate goals are to make wilderness adventure DVDs that I will distribute and sell myself on my website and through some local retailers, for a start. I also will create lots of 1080 hd stock footage. But I am confident I can produce (at least capture in the field) beautifully amazing nature footage based on my knowledge of lighting and composition and simply being in spectacular places that few people would lug a camcorder to. When I see the stuff on Nat'l Geo HD and Discovery HD, etc., I'm thinking, "I can easily do that, and then some". Not the CG work and effects and all that, but just the pure, wild, nature hd stuff. That's why I want to set my "technical quality" standards high enough to at least have the option of having footage available for such programs. So I feel I have the passion and talent to point my camera at gorgeous stuff in the wilds. If I didn't truly believe that, I would just stick to photography.
My ineptness in this whole process is not having ever worked with hd video editing. I'm getting a Mac Pro because that's what everyone says to get. I'm getting Final Cut Studio because that's what I hear is the best, or as good as anything else. The rest is all over the board and I have no idea. Harddrives, eSATAs, RAIDs, RAID-0, RAID-1, RAID-5, etc. Capture cards... a gazillion options from both Aja and Blackmagic... some downconvert, cross convert, up convert, HDMI, DVI, SDI, HDI-SDI, monitors with these connections but not those, and some with those but not these, etc., etc. AHHHHH! With all my reading I don't even know what a capture card really is, I mean, what am I capturing? I have a video camera that shoots on SxS cards, can't I just pop that into a slot and have my super duper Mac Pro and FCS software do their magic?
Douglas, if you were shooting an EX1 and editing on a Mac Pro with FCS, with my stated goals, what would your home studio consist of? And would your choices be the same if you had a budget of about $30,000 for the studio?
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Uli Plank on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:23:49 pm
As usual, very wise words from Douglas.
Now that I know what your distrubution channel is going to be, I'm able to give you better advice than I did before. Forget about high-end montoring for the time being, go for the Matrox MXO and the Apple dislpay it was made for. The CalDigit (or any other solid RAID5) is fine for your peace of mind and storing your HD originals.
The only Apple device that's ingesting SxS cards directly is a MacBook Pro, and it might be a good solution in the wilderness to free up your cards (but carry an external drive too and backup to that one immediately). You'll want the MacPro at home, since currently the new MacBooks don't work with the MXO. But you can also read your data directly from the camera to the MacPro via cable. There should even be adaptors for those cards in the market right now (or soon to be ready).
Save the rest of your money and keep it in the bank (if you still can find one that's reasonably stable). You may want upgrade one day, like for Blu-Ray authoring once it has reached a reasonable market size.
And, BTW, the Quatographics is one of the cheapest calibrated monitors at this time, but IMHO overkill for you before you go broadcasting.
( http://www.quato.com/english/IP240m.php )
And I'm not just talking about this stuff: we have it, are using it and even test it for others.
Regards,
Uli
Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 7:33:55 pm
Thanks, Uli! I like what you're saying. Not "having" to spend $3,500 on the JVC monitor and $1,500 on an Kona LHe card is good news. I've "read" good things about the Matrox MXO with the Apple 23" cinema display. The money I save from extra card and monitor can go towards a Macbook Pro for the field. It sounds like the MXO can also downconvert my hd stuff to standard def for burning DVDs. I have to keep remembering that I can always upgrade and add to my studio. I have the moolah to invest so ideally I would like to get the studio I'll need, but it sounds like the Matrox MXO is plenty sufficient at this point. Once I get my feet wet with the whole editing process things will be much clearer.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Kevin Shaw on Jan 29, 2008 at 12:03:42 pm
Buck: you definetly don't need a capture card to get video from an EX1 into a computer, so the only reason to buy anything like that in your situation would be for monitoring purposes. As far as editing goes, Macs are fine but somewhat limiting for HD work due to lack of Blu-ray support in Final Cut Studio.
So here's my suggestion: buy a Macbook Pro or any PC laptop with an Expresscard slot for transferring footage from the EX1, get an external eSATA RAID to hold your editing files, pick an editing application and get Adobe Premiere CS3 for authoring Blu-ray discs, and you're good to go. (If you edit in Sony Vegas you can make simple Blu-ray discs directly from that.) Monitoring I might be limited on a laptop, but they're so much more convenient than desktops I barely use the latter any more except to burn DVDs. For small HD projects I can edit anywhere including on an airplane using bus-powered USB2 hard drives.
Many of the replies in this discussion are overkill for your purposes, as you suspected. You don't need a capture card, just a FireWire card or Expresscard reader.
================
Kevin Shaw
Always Memorable Videos
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Michael Palmer on Jan 29, 2008 at 3:24:04 pm
Kevin,
Wow this is interesting, maybe I should have started out buying a motorhome instead of my house. "Ya sure honey I can get the stroller through the door".
Let me tell you how valuable it was just this week owning a professional edit solution working with my EX1. For whatever reason my EX1 using the Clock for the timecode has issues with the XD Cam Transfer software and being Mac based the only way to get these clips into Final Cut was to capture them using an HD-SDI capture card. This is a professional solution for a professional camera.
The subject line for Buck's question isn't really what he is asking after he explains how he intends to use this footage professionally using Final Cut/Apple as his EDL and/or platform. He lists mostly products that only work in Mac towers looking for suggestions to what he needs. I think he was given an answer to what he was after. I don't generally tell people what to purchase but there comes a time when solid purchasing advise is the right thing to do.
I don't think the term overkill is accurate. I do like your advise to use other EDL's that work with a PC as an alternative to the direction he's leaning to. I'm sure Buck is gaining confidence with his decision process, but I wouldn't prescribe a laptop as the main editing tool for someone with broadcast expectations.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Kevin Shaw on Jan 29, 2008 at 3:40:23 pm
Michael: you make some interesting points, but for basic HD editing it's no longer necessary to buy desktop computers and laptops are much more convenient. If there's a problem transferring footage from an EX1 to Final Cut using the standard transfer software that's something Apple and Sony need to sort out, and perhaps another reason to avoid Final Cut for now for the purposes under discussion here.
Maybe I shouldn't have said so emphatically that the desktop/Kona solution is unnecessary for Buck, but I wanted to make clear that it's not a requirement. The minimum equipment needed for editing EX1 footage is a Firewire cable or Expresscard reader and some editing software which can handle the footage, and that's it. If Buck thinks he may need something more advanced that's fine, but there are simpler choices.
================
Kevin Shaw
Always Memorable Videos
for basic HD editing it's no longer necessary to buy desktop computers by Michael Palmer on Jan 29, 2008 at 5:31:13 pm
"but for basic HD editing it's no longer necessary to buy desktop computers"
Kevin you say this as if you have found a revelation and as if I don't know that video editing is possible on a laptop. What you are also saying is that you interpreted Buck's needs as basic.
You describe the minimum needs for the EX1, but what you didn't think of is Buck's expectations for broadcast. To many people answer these questions with a ten dollar firewire cable or a laptop not taking in all of the big picture.
You obviously are a person that wants to help others or you wouldn't be here, I think you should have your name along the top of the HDV forum heading so you can provide people answers to the entire question. Your perspective will no doubt change.
I'd say Tim's post today has properly interpreted the needs for Buck and gave him strong reasons why it is important to have the right tools.
Re: for basic HD editing it's no longer necessary to buy desktop computers by Kevin Shaw on Jan 29, 2008 at 7:32:33 pm
Michael: I'm just trying to provide a different perspective to the high-end solution, to answer Buck's original question whether he needs a capture card for working with the EX1. Given that he appears to be just starting out and doesn't have immediate plans to deliver footage for broadcast use, he might be better off spending less money on things like capture cards and more on anything else like tripods, batteries, lighting, SxS cards, etc. Not that the capture card couldn't be useful, but it's not necessary.
My opinion wouldn't change if I was a forum moderator but thanks for the suggestion - if someone wants to add me to the list that's fine. :-)
================
Kevin Shaw
Always Memorable Videos
Re: for basic HD editing it's no longer necessary to buy desktop computers by Buck Forester on Jan 29, 2008 at 7:49:49 pm
Hey Kevin, I really appreciate your perspective, thanks! Oh, and you're in Folsom, CA? We're almost neighbors... I'm in Lincoln. If you ever want to spare an hour for lunch sometime, let me know! My email addy is buckforester(at)yahoo dot com.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Renee Scheltema on Feb 8, 2008 at 12:17:47 pm
Hi All
1)
Is it true that when editing native HDV (PAL), one cannot see anything on the external monitor?
Intel core dual mac, FCP 6.02 and Sony HDV camera with HDMI cable connected to Sony Bravia external monitor.... ??
2)
Does anyone of you have experience using an "intensity pro" card to be able to see footage on ext. monitor?
And will I ba able to capture via HDMI???
3) When capturing footage, FCP sometimes pretends to capture, but actually only captured 2 seconds, and has stopped, saying "searching for media".
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:27:04 pm
My choices would be/are whatever the job demands. I already own a fairly robust multi-room facility, and have made many of the choices you're asking about.
No, I would not purchase all the gear you're talking about for the output/delivery you're talking about.
If you're buying a Mac and FCS because "That's what everyone says to buy," then I have real issues with that concept. We offer an Avid Adrenaline, Media Composer, Xpress HD, Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere w/Matrox, and even an old Canopus Storm in our place. And we have FCS and Avid mostly because we have clients dumb enough to think that overall it matters on what we edit with. For about a year, we had one client (broadway producer) who thought we edited his stuff on an Avid because we put an Avid mousepad under the system and had a Newscutter manual above the monitor.
My own personal workflow, I prefer Vegas for most of what I do. Others will laugh, and that's fine by me. As you noted, my resume speaks for itself, so what hammer I use is my choice. I like the speed, the fact that nothing is converted, resampled, or resized when working in Vegas and that I can output a Blu-ray disc straight from the timeline from my EX-acquired footage. And have already provided footage to ESPN, EXPN, Discovery partner, Food Network, MTV, CMT straight from the Vegas timeline as both file-based HD delivery on a DVD-5, and HDD delivery of 1080p content to same client. But that's what works for me. It may not work for you. Were I spending 10K on a system to edit EX footage that will find it's delivery on SD DVD and BD, I'd personally not choose another Mac, because I already own a couple, and personally don't use Apple unless the client demands it. Bear in mind, I walked away from Apple years ago due to poor ProTools support, and only recently came back to Mac due to pressure from a couple clients that made it worthwhile...but Vegas is still my preferred tool. When FCS directly supports the 1920 stream from the EX, I'll likely look at the workflow again, but the quality of image output between the two apps is the same, it's the workflow that's different. Only *you* can determine if that makes sense for you.
In a networked or multiroom/multi-editor environment, Vegas makes no sense at all, because while it plays very nicely over MXF and AAF with some apps, it doesn't play as nicely as it could.
For speed and ease of use, you can't begin to challenge Vegas with anything else. But if you need Motion (I somewhat do) then FCS is right back in the mix. If you're intent on converting the MXF to ProRes for some reason, then FCS is your answer again. If you're needing broad access for various post flows, Avid Media Composer or Adrenaline are your best options. Building a system today around a specific camera without a specific delivery project in mind is also a tad frivolous, but again...that's just my opinion. Maybe you've got a bucket of $$ that you want to spend, and it's not my place at all to tell you that you can't/shouldn't.
In other words, without actually sitting down and having a dialog, I don't think you can do this over the web. Some might, I don't.
All the opinions you get are what make this a colorful world, yeah? :-)
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Uli Plank on Jan 26, 2008 at 6:43:21 pm
Since we both posted at the same time, it might look as if I put my opinion against that of Douglas. That's not my intention, I value his comments very much, I just have never used Sony Vegas, so I can't comment on it. But he's right, it's not about the tool, but all about the tool that fits you.
And I've seen so many occasion where folks without a clue about the trade were just looking for the right name, I really had to smile about your story with the Avid mousepad, Douglas!
Regards,
Uli
Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 26, 2008 at 7:53:01 pm
Gracias again, Douglas! I read ya about buying what others say. I'm already committed to the Mac Pro because I also just invested in recording gear for an Apple Logic based studio. I've heard great things about Logic and Final Cut Studio. I've read good stuff about other systems too, but it seems Apple is the leading choice for graphics based stuff.
You're a musician too so you're up on the audio stuff as well... any thoughts on the Sony PCM-D1 portable audio recorder? I plan on purchasing it for some quality nature sounds while I'm in the wilds.
As for building my video editing around one camera (EX1), since it's the main camera I'll be shooting with, I'm not sure where else to start? I'll also have a Sony HC7 for certain shots where my EX1 isn't practical. Since I don't plan on doing editing work for others with a range of various media, I don't think I'll need a lot of input options. I do have a substantial budget to work with so I don't want to go "cheap" at the expense of quality and kick myself later. But I also don't want to spend money on cool new flashy gear that I won't need. I'm already a gearhead when it comes to other stuff (wilderness adventure gear), and I'm finding it would be a LOT more expensive to simply be a gearhead when it comes to all this editing gadetry! Ha! I'm looking at this as a business "investment" and not just an expensive hobby to make really cool birthday videos for my kids. I'm thinking to get my feet wet I'll use the Matrox MXO for monitoring and down converting (I'm using lingo here as if I know what I'm talking about!). :Þ
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Douglas Figueredo on Jan 29, 2008 at 3:28:27 am
Fantastic discussion - I just wanted to let you all know that even though I'm just reading the thread, that I feel that I've learned a lot from you. Thanks for taking the time to be thorough with your answers.
Buck - good luck with everything . . .as a relative newcomer to HD, I know how frustrating it all is - so hang in there and stick to your dream. The one thing I do know (realy the 'one' thing) is that you'll definitely discover what it is you need, or more precisely the tools you'll need, as you go along. So, take full advantage of every software's trial period, because just like love, you gotta kiss a few frogs to find your prince(ess)!!
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Tim Kolb on Jan 29, 2008 at 3:33:24 pm
Hi Buck,
Just to make things a bit more insane...there is almost no information in this thread that I disagree with...
No, I'm not insane...or at least I remain undiagnosed...
Part of this deal is workflow and what you ultimately need to do with the footage, as several of these responses indicate.
You can certainly ingest/cut/export back to tape via firewire with most HDV variant camcorders and NLE combinations...as has also been mentioned.
The catch is that you would be doing a strict data transfer into your editor in this situation. HDV is long GOP MPEG with 8 bit palette precision. I've used it quite a bit...it definitely works for tons of stuff and as Douglas mentioned, if it's well shot by someone who knows what they're doing, it's easily broadcast-able.
Here is where I would maybe take a moment to examine what your end purpose is...nature stock footage. To me this screams "FUSSY COLOR CORRECTION" (I only use all upper case when I'm screaming...or abbreviating states or provinces). I'd have to say that Michael's recommendation for the JVC LCD monitor (about $5K USD) is a good way to go. I'd also suggest an HDSDI I/O card (that Kona that Michael mentions). Do you NEED it strictly speaking? Well, if you only plan on shooting your camera at 25 Mbps HDV, maybe not to simply get the footage onto the machine, but you have to consider a couple of things:
1.) The EX1 is capable of higher data rates than strictly HDV and if you ever decide to look at an external recording device to use HDSDI-downstream from the camera like the soon arriving Convergent Design Flash XDR recorder (recording 160 Mbits, 4:2:2 I-frame will really help with masses of fluttering leaves in the distance, believe me...), you won't have an HDV/XDcamHD compliant stream anyway...
and 2.) All these native formats are 8 bit with 256 discrete levels in each color channel...it sounds like a lot until you try to do some subtle color correction on it and suddenly you're attempting brain surgery with a battle axe...
Having a card like the Kona will enable you to ingest your footage from the HDSDI output of the camera and you can choose to move into a 10 bit, I-frame format (each bit doubles the palette precision so 8 bits is 256 steps, 9 bit would be 512, and 10 bits is 1024 discrete steps with each color channel...you just went from 16,777,216 possible color subtleties at 8 bit to 1,073,741,824 at 10...that'll help dial in the coat gradations on that Hunter's Hartebeest...).
Now of course, you can't "add back" any color that isn't there in the camera, but it does allow you to make much more subtle, precise adjustments...important is nature footage, particularly footage that you are selling.
Also, having an HDSDI output to feed that JVC monitor gives you an actual video output that you can not only view, but you can also run a scope on... Using a computer-based display card to feed a monitor via DVI is a dicey proposition as the display card is typically affecting the signal in some way, if nothing else, it's an RGB structured signal vs a video Color Difference (Y'CbCr) structured signal, which is what the video will be once it's moved back to tape, and is what the HDSDI pipe is handling. Therefore, even using the JVC monitor in both cases, the HDSDI feed will be a more dependable rendition of the finished product than a DVI feed from the computer's display card.
(also...keep in mind that you will nedd a dual-link DVI card to feed that 30" LCD display...this is not the same as dual-head, dual-link DVI gets you beyond the 1920x1200 pixel ceiling of standard, single-link DVI, which a 30" LCD won't even go down to...)
So I guess in your situation, I might lean toward a workflow where you can push your footage into 10 bit territory for post...the Kona route with the JVC monitor.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Steve Mathews on Jan 29, 2008 at 8:03:12 pm
Personally I agree with Michael Palmers earlier post on this thread to go for the Kona LHe and the JVC monitor. I have used the LHe card for about a year and have had great luck with it. Early on I aland so thought about the Kona 3 but for now the LHe is doing a fine job. It will also give you the ability to work with both digital and analog sources.
Everyone has their own favorite NLEs and most will do a good job for you. I am using Final Cut Studio 2 it works fine for me. Plenty of others swear by Avid and other NLEs. IF you are more familiar with Macs than Windows then FCP is a fine system. Here is a pretty good article by Michael Curtis on a Mac FCP system:
http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=196602702
One comment here caught my attention was in relation to BluRay in FCP. I have been trying to output to BluRay with Final Cut Studio 2 and it has been driving me bonkers. I would really welcome some advice on that so please feel free to contact me directly.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 29, 2008 at 8:39:09 pm
Thanks, Steve!
If price wasn't the first concern, would you get the Kona 3 over the Kona Lhe?
Last night I re-read (for the umpteenth time) all the literature I printed out from Aja and Blackmagic. There are so many cards to choose from. Each one I read, I'm thinking, "hey, this is the one!" until I read the literature from the next one, ha! I'm not very gullble when it comes to marketing material from companies, but it all sounds like that would help me out.
On the high end I was looking at the Kona 3 and Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse.
Middle-end I was looking at the Kona Lhe and the Multibridge Pro.
Any thoughts? Is Kona about due for a Kona 4 soon? I don't know how long the 3 has been out or what the product cycles are. Gracias.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 29, 2008 at 8:21:11 pm
Hi Tim! Gracias mucho grande for your comments. The deal is I do have enough resources to go pretty big right off the bat in terms of investing in equipment. That's why I don't want to skimp to "get by" with the basics, or give that impression. Nor do I want to buy stuff in igorance that is really unnecessary.
I could go ahead and get the JVC monitor and the card. A couple of questions... is that significantly better, short run and long run, than a Matrox MXO and a 23" Apple Display? When I read stuff about the Matrox (their own literature, of course, ha!) it makes it sound even BETTER than a dedicated monitor. I read about the color bars and blue channels (not even sure how that works yet) and de-interlacing, and the MXO sounds like it does it all. But I want to do it right and it would be nice to have a dedicated monitor so I don't have to switch back and forth. Also, you mentioned a separate card. Are you saying a Kona Lhe or Kona 3 or a Blackmagic Multibridge isn't sufficient for monitoring... do I need an additonal card besides one of those?
Also, I've read about ingesting footage from the HDSDI-out from the camera. By that does it mean I have to have a fast laptop connected directly to the camera and it records directly onto the laptop before the codex stuff hits the SxS cars? I really am not sure what that's all about.
And you mentioned something about a "Convergent Design Flash XDR recorder". Never heard of it? I Googled it and read a brief on it, and some specs, and although I have no idea what I'm really reading, it sounds FANTASTIC!?! It records on CF cards or something? For wilderness adventure stuff, how would this Convergent Design Flash XDR recorder help me "real world"? I'd get one in a heartbeat if I need it, even at $5 grand.
You're right about my desire to focus on quality. I know I can capture beautiful, well-thought out footage of amazing places and exciting experiences. I want my studio gear to have the capacity to output this footage "as good as it gets" for the medium I've chosen (Sony Ex1). I will be doing this on a serious level. I don't want any limitations on editing for color and graphics. Since I'm starting from scratch, I want everything to be compatable and fast and effecient (I know, I'm dreaming). If a Mac Pro and a firewire and an external harddrive with an EX1 can accomplish my goals, great. If I need capture cards and monitors and racks of gear and pretty secretaries, that's what I'll do. Whatever it takes. This is my passion and my dream. Un-asked for insight... my mother died of cancer last May, at age 67... tore me up. She left me with additional resources and instead of just putting money in the bank and working in insurance as I do now (along with my photography), I want to "live" and "create" and go for it. Do exciting stuff for a living. I won't quit my day job until I'm profitable, but I'm pretty close already with my photography, and with the hd videography added I don't think it will take me long. The wilderness is my real cubicle. My wife is behind me on this. She knows I'm happiest exploring wild places. I can both spend more time with her and our small kids, and do what I love as well. And more importantly, I'm doing this for my mom. Sappy, I know, but it's hugely motivating to me. There ya go, more than you cared to hear, ha!
Short story long, I appreciate your time to give suggestions. I'm leaning more towards the solution you just provided.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Tim Kolb on Jan 29, 2008 at 9:01:11 pm
[Buck Forester]"could go ahead and get the JVC monitor and the card. A couple of questions... is that significantly better, short run and long run, than a Matrox MXO and a 23" Apple Display? ... Also, you mentioned a separate card. Are you saying a Kona Lhe or Kona 3 or a Blackmagic Multibridge isn't sufficient for monitoring... do I need an additonal card besides one of those?
The MXO is a fine product, but I would still go with the Kona HDSDI>the JVC panel if I had a choice...the JVC is designed for video signals specifically.
The "other card" I mentioned is the display card. Every computer has one. It's what feeds the signal to your computer desktop monitors. To simply hook up a second Apple display to the other monitor port on your computer would be utilizing an RGB signal path (DVI) and display to monitor a Y'CbCr signal, which would probably not be giving you the most accurate feedback for subtle colors occuring in nature...the MXO box mitigates the color space mismatch somewhat. I use a 30" LCD for video overlay, but I have a beefy display card installed (a PNY QuadroFX 4500) and I run a calibration program called cineSpace to manage it.
I still think that an SDI output would be easier and more cost effective for your specific situation.
Also, I've read about ingesting footage from the HDSDI-out from the camera. By that does it mean I have to have a fast laptop connected directly to the camera and it records directly onto the laptop before the codex stuff hits the SxS cars? I really am not sure what that's all about.
And you mentioned something about a "Convergent Design Flash XDR recorder". Never heard of it? I Googled it and read a brief on it, and some specs, and although I have no idea what I'm really reading, it sounds FANTASTIC!?! It records on CF cards or something? For wilderness adventure stuff, how would this Convergent Design Flash XDR recorder help me "real world"? I'd get one in a heartbeat if I need it, even at $5 grand.
The Flash XDR box, which is in final development and isn't available yet, is relatively small-no laptop required. You would run an HDSDI cable from your camera to the FXDR recorder and record onto Compact Flash (ExtremeIII) cards. The advantage vs the SxS cards in the camera is that the camera only records up to 35 Mbits/s, Long GOP, 4:2:0 video. The FXDR recorder will go as high as 160 Mbit/s, I-frame, 4:2:2 video...much higher quality footage.
I don't want any limitations on editing for color and graphics. Since I'm starting from scratch, I want everything to be compatable and fast and effecient (I know, I'm dreaming). If a Mac Pro and a firewire and an external harddrive with an EX1 can accomplish my goals, great. If I need capture cards and monitors and racks of gear and pretty secretaries, that's what I'll do."
Pretty secretaries are an important part of any workflow...
The key will be using HDSDI to bring in, and to monitor your footage in a nutshell...and of course, shooting the best image possible.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 29, 2008 at 9:47:26 pm
The MXO is a fine product, but I would still go with the Kona HDSDI>the JVC panel if I had a choice...the JVC is designed for video signals specifically.
You say the Kona HDSDI... would you recommend the Kona 3 or the Kona LHe or some other Kona product?
The "other card" I mentioned is the display card.
The card I was going to choose (one of the options at the Apple Store for building a Mac Pro) is the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB. Is that sufficient? I was looking at the higher end option, the NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600 1.5GB, but everyone I talked to said that card doesn't do much additional for video editing and to stick with the 8800. Are you suggesting the FX 5600? Also, another concern I had with the MXO option is that Matrox says the GeForce 8800 video card hasn't been tested yet with the MXO so they can't add it to their list of approved video cards.
I'll be closely watching for this Flash XDR box, thanks for the heads up!
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Tim Kolb on Jan 29, 2008 at 9:57:20 pm
The Kona 3 has more capabilities than the Kona LHe...but I'm not sure you'd really require them...we're talking framesizes and color precision beyond just HD video...
They both have HDSDI in and out...
I'm sure the GeForce card would be fine...and if you go with a Kona card, you don't need the MXO so whether or not it works is of no concern. If you decide to go with an MXO instead of the kona direction...ask them which display card works with it, but do make sure whatever it is has dual-link DVI for that 30" monitor you intend to use...
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 29, 2008 at 10:19:39 pm
It sounds like the Kona LHe might be the route to go. As for the MXO, apparently it doesn't work on the Apple 30" display, it only works on the 23" display. But as of now, I'm leaning severely towards the Kona LHe and the JVC monitor. I know some here think that's overkill but I think I could use the features of Kona LHe card in my workflow somehow, someway. Thanks again, Tim.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Steve Mathews on Jan 30, 2008 at 9:53:37 pm
You are not cutting yourself short with the LHe. It has outperformed what I have needed so far and that is for shooting HD travel documentaries.
I found a NVIDA FX4500 for a good price and that suits me well, but I think you will do as well with what you have.
The main thing to consider is don't spend all of your funds on the equipment and then limit your ability to travel and shoot. That will eat up money as well. Consider what microphones you will use and are you planning to just record audio on the camera for the time being? Get yourself some good Pelican cases for transporting your equipment since the cheaper stuff just doesn't hold up to abuse. You will need plenty of cards to record video on and they don't come cheap. You will need a good notebook computer with a big hard drive to transfer video to in the field - maybe two if you want to go with better data security. Remember that you won't have tape as backup so all it would take is to lose a notebook computer in transit or have a hard drive failure to have wasted a very expensive trip and priceless video footage.
Get yourself a good tripod with fluid head and don't rely on some no-name brand included in a camera "package". With the shooting you are considering get a quality rain cover that gives you access to your camera controls and . Maybe also look into a waterproof housing for river shots. What lights are you going to use for night shoots? Batteries?? Get yourself a good supply of Anton Bauer's and a decent charger. Oh, and back to microphones, for wildlife shoots you may want to consider a good quality UHF wireless mic system that you can place near a food source or watering hole while you place yourself at a distance with your camera.
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Buck Forester on Jan 30, 2008 at 11:12:27 pm
Steve, thank you so much, this is fantastic advice! A couple quick questions if you don't mind...
Consider what microphones you will use and are you planning to just record audio on the camera for the time being?
I've been wondering about the best audio solutions. I plan on purchasing a Sony PCM-D1 audio recorder, but that is more just to record pure nature sounds and not necessarily time-coded to my video. Do you know anything about this unit? It's relatively small and light and hopefully excellent quality. http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10013/pcmd1.shtml As for time-coded audio with the EX1, what would you recommend for taking it in the backcountry and doing on-the-spot narration as well as decent nature sounds recording?
You will need a good notebook computer with a big hard drive to transfer video to in the field - maybe two if you want to go with better data security.
I've been looking at notebooks and thankfully some of them come in small/light sizes. I just need it for the dumping my SxS cards in the backcountry. Any recommendations? Instead of hauling around two notebooks for a backup, I was considering a small USB harddrive. Any thoughts?
With the shooting you are considering get a quality rain cover that gives you access to your camera controls and . Maybe also look into a waterproof housing for river shots. What lights are you going to use for night shoots?
Do you have any personal preferences for rain covers? I will be doing lots of shooting in harsh beach environments (such as California's Lost Coast) so I want protection from rain, salty spray, and wind driven sand. Also lots of backpacking in rainy/snowy conditions. For underwater shots I was thinking that's where my Sony HC9 will get more use because I'm not ready to spend a gazillion $$ on full underwater housing for my EX1 (I don't do enough underwater stuff to justify it at this point), but I was thinking of getting an Ewa-Marine underwater 'case' (they're more like thick plastic baggies) for my HC9 (I don't want to risk my EX1 with water... yet, ha!). For night shoots I'll just use a small amount of footage from the Sony HC9's Super NightShot, as I don't think I'll do much "real" night shooting in the wilderness. At least with the Nightshot feature I might be able to get some decent shaky Bigfoot footage if he comes close enough to my camp. :^D
I wasn't familiar with Anton Bauer's site, thanks for the heads up! I'm gobbling up every post and recommendation from you guys, thanks so much!
Re: Do I really need a capture card for editing hdv? Help! by Steve Mathews on Jan 31, 2008 at 9:46:15 am
We are getting pretty far away from the original subject but I will answer what I can. For the distances you are talking about in wildlife shooting, a camera mounted microphone won’t do you much good no matter how directional it is, other than picking up some ambience type noise in the surrounding area. You will really need something located away from you and closer to the animals you are filming. A pretty good wired boom mic is the Sennheiser MKH 416 or the Sanken CS1 or CS3e. The prices for the Sankens are pretty reasonable. For wireless, look for something in UHF to give you decent range. At least out in the wilderness you wont have a lot of issues with frequency conflicts. Zaxcom makes an excellent system for around $3500 for transmitter and receiver. If you are looking for something a little more reasonable in price you could try some of the Azden UHF systems, but you give up some sound quality and performance. On the other hand, if you are putting a wireless microphone out somewhere that an animal may step on it or eat, you would much rather lose a $300 Azden transmitter than a $1700 Zaxcomm.
For a sound recorder we mostly use the audio recorded onboard the camera since we don’t have the additional people to lug around a field recorder. I have never tried the Sony PCM-D1 so I really can’t say, but I have read great things about it. I have used the Tascam HD-P2 and it is pretty decent.
Since we mostly use Macs in our studio, for field notebook computers we use 15” Mac Book Pros with 200GB hard drives. That allows us to download from our P2 cards (we are using Panasonic HVX-200s and HPX-500s), review the video and do some rough editing in the field. Saving a copy to a USB or firewire hard drive is the perfect idea for backup.
For rain covers, you will definitely need one. Ikegama make some great ones and Kata rain covers are pretty good as well for a lower price. For a waterproof housing for the HC7, I recommend a Sony SPK-HCC which I use for our HC3s. I believe they work for the HC7 as well. They are not designed for underwater work below about 5 meters, but for surf use and shallow water they work fine. The Ewa-Marine housings you mentioned are good as well although they limit your handling of the camera controls somewhat.
To get some experience you might talk to some of the companies in your area to let you accompany a shoot. They may be willing if you pay your own way and agree to share your video. We are based quite a bit further away in the Philippines so most of our shooting is in Philippines, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and Vietnam. We do travel videos primarily but we also do some nature shoots as well. You would be welcome to tag along with us on a shoot but you would have to travel too far to get here.
