I run a very small production company that does weddings and commercials for local businesses. I want to start heading into the HD world. I have final cut HD and a G5 with a few hundred gigs of hard drive space. What all am I going to need to go totally high def. ?
If I film in HD, do I have to capture the tape with a high def. deck?
Does a g5 burn on HD dvd's?
Can I export HD material from final cut onto a mini dv or dv cam tape and it still be HD?
I'm trying to learn this stuff but some of it confuses me. Thanks for any help.
Re: What I need to go HD by Jeffrey B. on Nov 7, 2007 at 9:52:19 pm
You'll need an HD camera.
>>If I film in HD, do I have to capture the tape with a high def. deck?
If you use a tape format, yes. You can use the camera as a capture deck if you don't mind putting some wear on the video heads. If you use a tapeless format like XDCam or P2 cards, then you don't need to capture, you just have to transfer files.
>>Does a g5 burn on HD dvd's?
No. Although Apple claims that DVD Studio Pro can record the HD DVD format onto plain vanilla DVDs, but I've heard they don't work on real DVD players and much less material can fit on a disc.
>>Can I export HD material from final cut onto a mini dv or dv cam tape and it still be HD?
No (sort of). HDV and DV use the same size tapes, but record in a different format. If you have an HDV camera or deck, chances are you can record the HDV format onto the tape, but the tape will only play in HDV cameras or decks, not regular old DV players. You cannot record HDV onto a regular DV tape if you do not have an HDV deck. In any case, it is not recommended to finish to HDV tape because all of the video information will have to be re-encoded and undergo a loss in quality.
Digital Juice has a nice video that talks about HD distribution options:
http://www.digitaljuice.com/djtv/segment_detail.asp?sid=163&searchid=37277
Re: What I need to go HD by Ed Dooley on Nov 9, 2007 at 1:58:54 pm
Yes, you can have a hard copy. But you need an HDV deck for that (but most people don't want to wind up with an HDV master).Most people wind up with an HD(V) project that can be converted to many formats on export. If you need an HD DVD, you need to get an HD-DVD authoring program and burner.
And another thing not mentioned yet, a way to monitor HD.
Most of what we do winds up as SD DVDs, but we shoot HDV. The web videos and DVDs
look great, and when we need to occassionally project the video, the HD blows away SD. If in the future, our client wants the project on an HD DVD or HD tape, it's ready to go.
Ed
[lukewarm13]"so... in conclusion, what is the point of going HD right now?
You can't have a hard copy of an HD final product? Should I stay SD until they figure this stuff out?"
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 9, 2007 at 2:06:17 pm
You can have a hard copy of your project in HD; Broadcasters will only accept HDCAM or D5 for delivery, however. For your own purposes, you can archive to HDV, uncompressed, XDCAM, or put it on BD or HD DVD using MPEG 2, AVCHD, or VC1.
But delivery to corporate clients (if they're worth the additional cost) can be on BD. We've started delivering BD to corporate clients for trade shows.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
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Re: What I need to go HD by Zak Mussig on Nov 9, 2007 at 8:12:32 pm
Assuming that you shoot DV and deliver DVDs to wedding clients, I would suggest is that it would be beneficial for you to shoot/master in HDV rather than DV. You'll get a higher resolution image and could keep all of those extra pixels until you encode for DVD. Your MPEG has great potential to look better than one made from a DV source.
Also, HD delivery is in a very nebulous place for smaller companies (anyone who isn't a studio), but HD DVD and Blu-ray penetration will pick up in the next few years. In some sort of chicken and egg scenario, it will be easy and affordable enough for us little guys to deliver high-def discs around the time the players are in a lot more homes. By shooting and mastering in HDV, you leave the possibility of generating more revenue per wedding, by later offering HD versions of the discs.
Knowing that your videos are "future-proof" could help get you business in the first place.
Re: What I need to go HD by Zak Mussig on Nov 12, 2007 at 9:38:12 pm
Your hard drive space for HDV will be pretty comparable to your needs for DV. Yes, you just edit and then compress your sequence to MPEG2, just like DV.
As far as tapeless goes, neither Panasonic P2 nor XDCAM are HDV systems. The only tapeless HDV systems are hard disk based (either Firestore or Sony's HDV hard drive recorder). For your needs I would stick with HDV to tape for the time being, but that's my opinion.
Re: What I need to go HD by Jeffrey B. on Nov 13, 2007 at 5:21:36 am
HDV and DV will take up about the same space. But as you know, bigger is always better.
I don't know what you're "normal" workflow is like, but the process isn't too much different with HDV. Check your FCP user manual for the best settings to use.
Tape vs tapeless is still up in the air. Tapes are tangible, they last for a relatively long time, and they work in a way that you're used to. The standard is also a little more defined, so any HDV tape will play in any HDV player (sort of). Tapeless is much more convenient and faster to work with. The drawbacks: you always always need backups. It also requires a large investment in a format that's tied to single company. Also, make sure your editing software supports the format you want to use or upgrade.
Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 13, 2007 at 3:16:32 pm
"The standard is also a little more defined, so any HDV tape will play in any HDV player (sort of). "
I disagree with this statement in that every company has their own favor/format of HDV and this statement is miss leading. There is no standard and there are only 2 companies making decks.
I do agree that the tape is a valuable and tangible item. And I must confess I now have experienced a tapeless TV series production and there are great benefits and important storage decisions to be made. However the production costs are must higher when files are mishandled
or lost. Its not just the digitizing time it will be a re-shoot.
HDV is great for small time productions that can afford the extra time for digitizing the material.
Also tapeless HDV is only a few weeks away. The XD Cam EX will make it possible for HDV sized files to be recorded from this unit. HHUMMM this EX and an HDV deck might be a good combo. Quick and easy data transfers and tape for outputting to archive.
Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 13, 2007 at 5:45:10 pm
IF HDV isn't much larger of a format than DV why is it better? Should I go HD instead of HDV?
How fat is your wallet. What do you consider HD?
HDV is the lowest end of all the HD formats. There is no question HDV is far superior to DV. I believe HDV can be used in broadcast if shoot properly and handled properly during post.
The complex MPEG-2 compression is why it looks as good as it does on acquisition. Depending on your needs you can have excellent results working with HDV.
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 13, 2007 at 5:54:30 pm
HDV is the lowest end of all the HD formats.
For purposes of clarity, AVCHD is the lowest of all the current HD formats.
HDV uses a different compression scheme than DV, and due to the storage device, has to conform to the limitations of that storage device. 25Mbps is the best data rate that can be put on a mini-DV tape at the transport speed.
As Michael suggests, you can have terrific output from an HDV camcorder if you pay attention to lighting and camera setup.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
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Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 13, 2007 at 11:34:31 pm
HDV is *always* recorded to tape, or else it's not HDV. You might have a 25Mbps (or 19Mbps) MPEG2 video stream that is HD, but it cannot be called HDV unless it records to tape.
The new Sony XDCAM EX does not record to tape, but you could use a downconverter to take the component signal from the camera,but you're recording a greater signal to a lesser format (HDV), and it comes at a fairly high dollar cost.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 13, 2007 at 11:49:41 pm
Where is it said that HDV only records to tape? And Have you worked with the EX enough to knew the firewire 25mbps signal can't be recorded to HDV tape? I was lead to believe it is HDV an it is compatible for use with 60i HDV.
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 14, 2007 at 12:01:52 am
~yes, I've worked with the XDCAM EX. No, it is not HDV.
~HDV, by DEFINITION, is a tape-only format. It's in the spec. You might have a 25 or 19Mbps stream in a GOP format, but if it's not recording to tape, it cannot be called HDV.
To record to an HDV deck or camcorder, you can take the component out from the cam, go into a component-1394 converter, and feed the device the 25Mbps stream from the 35Mbps originating stream.
This workflow isn't part of our XDCAM EX training DVD, it had never entered my mind that someone would want to record XDCAM EX to HDV tape. Obviously, I was wrong.
FWIW, my intials are DSE, not DSP ;-)
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 14, 2007 at 12:25:54 am
To record to an HDV deck or camcorder, you can take the component out from the cam, go into a component-1394 converter, and feed the device the 25Mbps stream from the 35Mbps originating stream.
I don't understand the component connection to 1394 converter, who's is it and the 35Mbps and how that could be funneled down to 25Mbps.
I would like to know if the 25Mbps signal is the same Mpeg-2 signal as HDV and if it can be recorded without conforming back to an HDV 60i deck?
From what I've read the Standard recording 25Mbps EX signal is a 1440x1080 60i format to be used with HDV. Is this true?
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 14, 2007 at 12:37:04 am
From what I've read the Standard recording 25Mbps EX signal is a 1440x1080 60i format to be used with HDV. Is this true?
Yes, this is true, but with the original question stemming from recording to an outside device, I'm not clear on why one would want the same image recorded once to card at 35Mbps and a second image recorded to a deck/camcorder at 25Mbps. Maybe I'm missing something here. If you use the CBR mode, the image going to card is the same image as is going to an HDV deck/camcorder. I'm not following why the deck would be preferable to the card.
If you use the component out, at least you're getting an uncompressed, 4:2:2 output from the camera, feeding a converter. Depending on the converter, you could gain a better image than the camera itself can record at 25Mbps. Several companies such as Convergent Design, Miranda, Teranex, etc make converters to convert component and SDI to Firewire/1394.
Given the choice of 35Mbps VBR, or 25Mbps CBR, other than needing to fit a time constraint, why would you record to 25Mbps. I suppose another option might be firewire out in CBR mode, recording to a DR 60 or a Firestore so that you've got longevity, but isn't 90 mins enough on a card, vs 110 mins at CBR?
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 14, 2007 at 3:29:23 am
the original question stemming from recording to an outside device,"Also tapeless HDV is only a few weeks away. The XD Cam EX will make it possible for HDV sized files to be recorded from this unit. HHUMMM this EX and an HDV deck might be a good combo. Quick and easy data transfers and tape for outputting to archive" I'm not clear on why one would want the same image recorded once to card at 35Mbps and a second image recorded to a deck/camcorder at 25Mbps.
DSE/Spot
Plenty of people have Sony HDV products and like/want the tangible tape aspect of it and here comes a new product. I like a lot of of HDV users are ready to purchase the EX and integrate with our Z1's and V1's. So the specs roll out and it would seem HDV is the 25Mbps standard Mpeg-2 format that matches what we have, so... Is this format not HDV or are you sticking to HDV is recorded tape only and/or is this just another marketing strategy to separate EX cam from HDV.
So if I want to shoot an event and I have 2 HDV cameras and 1-EX and want to shoot 25Mbps to match, can I make an archive of the EX cam recording back to HDV tape without conforming? If the answer is yes then this to me is tapeless HDV. I see the EX as a bridge from HDV to HD.
Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 14, 2007 at 3:47:06 am
DSE/Spot
Just another thought.....
XD Cam to my knowledge has never had a 25Mbps recording choice , it has only been a 35Mbps format from what I know, and as I'm sure you know XD Cam is going to an even higher 50Mbps bite rate recording with the new units coming out. 25Mbps has always been HDV, Why would anyone not call the Standard recording of the EX an HDV recording?
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 14, 2007 at 4:16:17 am
Is this format not HDV or are you sticking to HDV is recorded tape only and/or is this just another marketing strategy to separate EX cam from HDV.
I didn't create the spec; Canon, Sony, and JVC did. To call it HDV is wrong, and that's exactly why you don't see the HDV logo on anything that isn't tape-based. You can call it (internally) whatever you want. But in the eyes of Sony, Canon, and JVC, it's not HDV. It's not a marketing strategy, it's a spec. HDV can't be variable bitrate (the EX is) and HDV cannot be non-tape based (like the EX is) as specified by the consortium that owns the HDV format patents and rights.
Whether you want to match it to an HDV camcorder or not isn't an issue of bitrate, IMO. For example, I just finished being part of a project that used a Genesis primary with several V1U's as secondary, all shooting 24p. They'll all be in the same final big screen release. Should the Genesis have been downconverted to 25Mpbs so it matched the V1U's? The .5 imager and different lens are going to be a much more difficult match than bitrate will be.
This is the part of the discussion I don't understand. You'd rather lose 10Mbps so the bitrate matched a tape-based camcorder, rather than having the additional fluidity, saturation, and contrast of 35Mbps?
OK...if that makes you happy, that's what makes you happy. In that event, I'd suggest saving your $$ and buying a hard drive recorder for your HDV camcorders.
I love the EX for what it is, I think it's one of the most innovative camcorders in a long, long time. but it's not HDV. It offers a 25Mbps CBR, but that's where it ends. I realize you may feel it's semantics, but it's not semantics to the HDV consortium any more than saying DVCPro is the same as DV is to Panasonic.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 13, 2007 at 11:42:22 pm
The only way an HDV deck can receive a signal for recording is with firewire. I don't have an EX to tell you if it is possible to use the EX camera to send an HDV signal out from the firewire so that it can be recorded by an HDV deck. HDV recording decks only record an already created HDV signal and it doesn't actually encode to HDV at all.
Re: What I need to go HD by lukewarm13 on Nov 14, 2007 at 2:52:35 am
A lot of what you guys are talking about is over my head. My production company is small but I have some extra money I can use to make my technology top notch for my size company.
What HD/HDV would you recommend for use with weddings and corporate videos?
I would like to have tape hard copies for back up one day but I also want to go with the best technology possible.
Re: What I need to go HD by Jeffrey B. on Nov 14, 2007 at 7:35:32 am
Yeah, we got a little off-topic here.
HDV was designed to work very similarly to DV, so if you're used to that just go for HDV and don't worry about other formats, even though they might be better.
Only Sony and JVC make HDV decks, and if you don't want to use your camera as a deck, get the same brand camera and deck (for compatibility reasons). If you don't care if you use your camera as a deck, it doesn't matter.
I would suggest renting HD cameras for your next few projects to see which works best for you in both operation and workflow. Then you can make a more informed purchasing decision.
Re: What I need to go HD by wiredcoach on Nov 17, 2007 at 11:12:54 pm
I agree with the post about future-proofing your material, and even being able to sell it again when clients have some kind of HD playback capability. And if you hook up your HDV camera to an HD TV and show them HDV content, it will really knock their socks off and maybe help close the deal.
I've been using HDV with Sony cameras for some time now. It's spectacular.
When you're looking at cameras, here's something else to take into consideration. HDV is 16:9, SD is 4:3. Once I needed to provide a piece of footage to someone else putting together a highlight reel, which was being done in SD. The Sony Z1U allowed me to capture from tape in 4:3 with the sides simply cut off (as opposed to having to have black bands at the top and bottom). The Sony FX1 does not have this capability. This may be an issue for you if someone doesn't have an HD or Widescreen TV and wants their DVD delivered in 4:3, not 16:9.
BTW, when the person received my clip, she said wow, it looks better (the colors) than the rest of what we have. That was because the original capture was better.
Re: What I need to go HD by Don Greening on Nov 14, 2007 at 10:04:44 am
[Michael Palmer]" I don't have an EX to tell you if it is possible to use the EX camera to send an HDV signal out from the firewire so that it can be recorded by an HDV deck."
The EX owner's manual states that the camera will indeed send a 25Mbit CBR signal out through firewire to an HDV deck. It's also a user preference that allows you to have the SXS memory card record the same thing at the same time (or not). Or you can choose to record to the SXS card @ 35VBR while still sending the 25CBR to the iLink connector. Probably the iLink is always hot.
From the EX .pdf manual:
"When you set the camcorder to Camera mode, the picture being shot with this camcorder is output as an HDV stream via the iLink (HDV) connector. It can be recorded on a connected HDV recorder in synchronization with the REC/START/STOP operation on the camcorder."
Re: What I need to go HD by dse/spot on Nov 15, 2007 at 3:29:18 am
So Like I said tapeless HDV is just a few weeks a way. Recording HDV to a tapeless format has been with us for nearly 3 years.
Now we can record a 25Mbps stream to SxS card, and soon to a CF card along with tape. Or, we can record a 35Mbps stream to an SxS card, which is how we're currently working here.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by Lukewarm13 on Nov 15, 2007 at 4:06:38 am
So people that are using tapeless format now.....are they just saving their video on a hard drive as their master? That seems scary. It looks like everyone would want a hard copy (on tape) for backup.
Re: What I need to go HD by Don Greening on Nov 15, 2007 at 5:11:45 am
[Lukewarm13]"are they just saving their video on a hard drive as their master?"
That and other media: XDCAM Disc, Blu-ray, DLT, HDCAM tape, hard drives. The XDCAM Disc is touted as being the most reliable with an expected shelf life of 50 years or more.
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 15, 2007 at 2:10:50 pm
>is the XD-cam disc like the blu ray in that you have to have an HD burner to burn it?
No.
The F330/350 camcorders use a technology similar to what you see as Blu-ray discs on the store shelves, but the disc is encased in its own housing. The writing hardware is contained within the camcorder.
You cannot take a disc from an XDCAM and put it in your BD1/300/whatever Blu-ray player and play it, nor can you put a Blu-ray movie from the store into the XDCAM and play it.
XDCAM discs may be used to shoot either HD or SD. It's a little confusing to some, because the EX is part of the XDCAM lineup, but doesn't shoot to XDCam Professional disc.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by Michael Palmer on Nov 15, 2007 at 5:07:20 am
Respectfully DSE/Spot,
My original comment should have clarified what I believe is the first intentionally designed camera that is completely tapeless that has the ability to record an HDV signal to its main recording media. No other device I know of that has this 25Mbps HDV recording ability was ever designed to be completely tapeless until now. I won't argue how many years an HDV tapeless after market devices have been available or even how long Sony's HVR-DR60 product has been around. If you want to call HDV as tape only I can respect that.
Just hope you can respect my views. I'm actually purchasing one of these XD Cam EX cameras and I say, it is what it is.
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 15, 2007 at 1:11:31 pm
>>If you want to call HDV as tape only I can respect that. Michael, I do see your point. However, as a moderator of an HDV forum, I hope you'd be familiar with the HDV specification as submitted and accepted. HDV as a format, is exclusively for recording to MiniDV tape storage.
The spec can be changed, no doubt. Two years after JVC introduced 24p in the HDV format, the consortium modified the format spec to include 24p. At the same time, they modified the spec to allow for 4 channel, 32k audio. This change was part of the impetus to create a second edition of "HDV: What You NEED to Know." But at this time, they have not changed the spec to include recording to non-tape devices.
I don't have a dog in the fight; I'm not suing anyone for illegal use of the HDV trademark. Yet as a moderator, I do feel a certain responsibility to be accurate and correct with information, don't you? As mentioned before, we are also using XDCAM EX (along with XDCAM 350 and HDV camcorders).
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by flip43 on Nov 18, 2007 at 7:00:59 pm
the big problem with the Hard disk field recorders like the Firestore and the Sony equivalent is that the disks are formatted FAT32. That means a new file every 18 minutes or so which for event/weddings is useless.
Re: What I need to go HD by DSE/Spot on Nov 18, 2007 at 8:21:32 pm
That means a new file every 18 minutes or so which for event/weddings is useless
Why? The files are seamless. We have recorded several corporate meetings and presentations that sometimes span 3 hours. Yes, it's a PITA to have so many files (unless you're using Vegas, which stitches them together), but it's far from "useless", IMO.
they're all numbered sequentially, so it's fairly easy to recognize that you've got 001, 002, and 003 in every hour.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
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Re: What I need to go HD by flip43 on Nov 18, 2007 at 10:31:26 pm
Even if they're genuinely seamless, we use multicam editing for all our events and several files for a single shoot, each spanning different section would be impossible.
Re: What I need to go HD by Don Greening on Nov 19, 2007 at 4:28:32 am
Which begs the question: If one presses record with the PMW EX1 at the start of a long event shoot and the camera fills up card A and goes to card B before one presses stop, would your transferred clip (one clip across 2 cards) import as a single cilp. This is a rhetorical question, because no one will know (save for the Sony developers) until cameras are in the hands of the users. I'll take a guess and say no, that it will end up as 2 clips, but perhaps programs like Final Cut, Premiere Pro, etc. will be able to one day read the accompanying meta data and automatically stitch the 2 pieces together during transfer.
Re: What I need to go HD by accelv on Dec 5, 2007 at 1:41:58 am
Wait until early 2008 when Sony will release two new HDV cameras with 3 CMOS chips supposedly better in low light for weddings, etc. One will be a shoulder mount 3 hour tape kind, and another will be a lower cost Handicam, and both can record to tape and memory cards simultaneously.
