HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good?
by e-money
on
Apr 30, 2007 at 10:55:29 pm
Hey Gang,
So i work for a news company and we're shooting HDV 1080i60. Once we're ready to output for the web we do a quicktime conversion, using FCP's Animation codec (at the highest levels possible) and then encode with adobe flash and convert it into a flash file (at about 448 kbps).
So here's my question. Why are our videos looking less than crystal clear? In fact, they look even more pixelated than an SD output. I'm convinced there must be something wrong with the way we're converting, but some people have mentioned that you must be more careful with lighting when it comes to web video. is this true? i'm used to judging exposure for film and television standards. do you think web video is entirely different?
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by epontius on May 1, 2007 at 4:02:42 am
If your quicktime MOV with the animation codec is looking good, the fault might be in the quality of the flash encoding or the settings being used.
Not all flash encoders are created equal...some like On2 Technologies flash 8 encoders do a pretty nice job.
The other thing to consider is that you are taking 1080 lines an squeezing them into something much smaller and throwing a lot of information out as part of the compression.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Danny2007 on May 1, 2007 at 8:31:28 am
You need a good de-interlacer and scaler along with a the ON2 flash codec.
Personally I'd use Episode from Telestream/Flip4Mac.
Also, don't bother with the animation CODEC - use the PhotoJPEG CODEC at between 90% - 100& quality and you'll get the same quality at much smaller file sizes.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by e-money on May 1, 2007 at 9:40:04 pm
thanks for the input.
i've been applying the de-interlace filter in FCP (5.4.1) and using On2 VP6 codec in Flash 8. none of this seems to make the picture quality look any better. i understand i'm loosing information but i still can't fathom why the video quality is so poor.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by epontius on May 1, 2007 at 10:20:31 pm
You might also be a bit biased, knowing what it looked like in HD and seeing the reduction in quality once it's been scaled and compressed. You might consider showing to someone who never saw the original HD source and see what they think.
or you can go to your web site: www.sprig.com
(there are only a few videos that were shot in SD, but you can tell the difference because they're letterboxed)
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Larry Wheeler on May 3, 2007 at 3:46:01 pm
I just viewed the 2 videos you linked. For the bitrate, that's really good quality! I could read the chalk menus in the "Cheese" video in the background. It looks great, and loaded quite fast, which is far more important to the viewer. Even in the fast motion moves, it's looks quite good. There is really nothing wrong with that compressed version, at all, in my opinion.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by e-money on May 3, 2007 at 4:04:58 pm
due tell!
wow that makes me feel much better. i guess there are just some parts where people's faces look so pixelated, and i worked so hard to get a good exposure. but i feel like i constantly have to bump things up during color correction, in order to even out the exposure.
but if you say it looks good, then maybe i am being too hard on myself...
maybe i am biased with my HDV monitor. ahhhh... i love that thing!
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Jeff Nelson on May 3, 2007 at 4:05:41 pm
I have to agree, this is very acceptable encoding. I use FlixPro for encoding Flash, which does a very satisfactory job, and it's the content and quick loading which is key for mass audience, moreso than compression artifacts, etc.
If you were looking to improve the videos -- which I think are great, by the way -- I would maybe consider getting a wireless handheld mic rather than a lav, which is going to give you better sound for this kind of standup thing, maybe carry a tripod if it's not too much trouble or something to stabilize the camera a bit more, and definitely an on-camera light. People seem a bit dark in many shots and I'm seeing camera shadow when you're going in for product closeups. If you're a one-man band, then an on-camera light would help. If you have an assistant, consider bringing a light or two, can really make a big difference, a reflector when you're outside for some fill.
But all in all, very creative with the music and gimmicks, what you have there, which makes for fun viewing.
You can definitely get a better encode with h264 than flash, but flash is far more universal than quicktime 7 and hence the encoder of choice on the web, and what I use for mass audience.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by e-money on May 3, 2007 at 4:46:30 pm
the compression you used is sparkling! did you shoot with HDV? looked great. i think an eye light is the key! and overall fill. I mean, we had a 1,000 watt light as fill but it was hard to get in all of those tight spaces in that market in the middle of the day. it was a hectic place.
again, the key is in the lighting i think.
thanks so much for the help.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Jeff Nelson on May 3, 2007 at 4:51:58 pm
Yes, was shot on HDV using the Canon A-1. If you were using fill in these shots then I would just caution to make sure you're exposing for the faces, even if you're blowing out other things in the shot. The face is the money when someone is talking. Use the zebras to make sure you're getting the nest exposure on the faces. Cheers.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Danny2007 on May 3, 2007 at 4:16:36 pm
These two lips look very good. My only comments are that the lighting could be better, especially for the faces as this is where the quality drops due to insufficient fill light.
The 2nd comment relates to the quality of scaling and de-interlacing. Neither are good. You need a good adaptive deinterlacer and high quality scaler to get the best and that can be found in these apps; Procoder, Cleaner, Episode & ffMPEG and a couple of others.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by HowDoYouDoThat on May 3, 2007 at 7:31:46 pm
Money:
I thought your videos were great.
One thing I noticed was you had auto iris going. The scene where your two talent were behind the cheese bar were dark. The camera was exposing for the brightest object which brought the skin tone way down. Other posters are correct in stating that you need to expose for face. I would set your zebras to 80-85% and expose faces to that. Otherwise underexposed skin will look dirty and pixlelated. Available lighting is fine if you can get an even exposure. But when all else fails use lights. Small sun gun would be a great help.
With HDV especially when you have a lot of dark areas (under exposed) the blacks can and will get real noisy. Therefore even exposure and even gammas are important. Make sure to use your zebra and the suggestions about codecs, scaling and de-interlacing from the forum here and you'll see huge improvements.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Steven L. Gotz on May 3, 2007 at 9:12:29 pm
That encoding is top notch. The only way to do better is to plan ahead and make sure that nothing moves that doesn't have to. The less movement, the smaller the file. So you can increase the data rate and still do OK if you plan ahead and use a tripod as well as make sure that lighting changes are less dramatic.
SHooting for4 the web is different than shooting for widescreen HDTV or film out.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by Bill Marcellus on May 10, 2007 at 12:57:15 am
I am very late responding to this thread but I thought that I would throw in my experiences in shooting and posting video for the web.
My company has produced a series of webisodes for Lifetime Movie Network called "Inspector Mom". Those of you old enough will recognize the actress portraying Inspector Mom as Fred Savage's girlfriend Winnie from "The Wonder Years"- Danica McKellar,
So far I have posted 8 webisodes with two more to go (we finished production last December). We had a lot of preproduction discussion regarding motion in the frame and resultant poor encoding results- not to mention camera motion. Well, I have to say that over the past year we have learned that you can get excellent encoding results even with handheld cameras. The current webisode set in a haunted house is a prime example of this as most of it was shot handheld.
A year ago when we shot the first webisode it was ALL shot on sticks. Then we graduated to dolly shots. The results remained good so we finally realized that we could do whatever we wanted in terms of camera movement and motion within the frame. If you look at parts of the earlier webisodes you will find a basically static camera.
All of the material was shot in DVCPro 720 24pN on the HVX-200. I posted in the same codec in FCP- no offline- online for everything including grading. I used Pro Tools for audio mastering and married the result in FCP. At this point the master was handed off to Lifetime for encoding. Lifetime encoded in Flash video. I am not sure what codec they used ( I am sure I can find out if anyone is interested).
So, I have learned that advances in encoding combined with a properly lit image, a competent DP and color grading tailored for the web rather than broadcast can produce results that have far exceeded my expectations at the outset of this project.
Just wanted to share...and now you all know where "Winnie" went.
Re: HDV for Web Broadcast... why can't i get it to look good? by John Frey on May 11, 2007 at 1:22:24 am
Very nice, Bill. Quality lighting does make a difference! If you can share more info re. the encoding parameters it would be greatly appreciated. This is something I can show both staff and clients.
John D. Frey
25 Year owner/operator of two California-based production studios.
Digital West Video Productions of San Luis Obispo and Inland Images of Lake Elsinore
