need cine-look camera
by Rick Diamond
on
Aug 6, 2005 at 9:28:53 pm
I'm looking for a dv or hdv camera that will be used almost exclusively for filmmaking. Therefore I'm looking for a camera in the Sony Z1 price range that will provide a realistic cine look. Does the Sony Z1 do a good job? I heard that when shooting in their version of 24P...24F?, the video looks very studdery during motion. Is this true? Any other cameras worth considering?
Re: need cine-look camera by Barry Green on Aug 7, 2005 at 12:42:25 am
The Sony would be exactly the wrong choice, considering that both JVC and Panasonic are bringing true 24p high-def cameras to market. Sony's CineFrame 24 does a quite questionable job of emulating 24p -- it causes shimmer and variable resolution even on still shots, and the motion rendition is uneven (instead of dividing the amount of motion equally between two frames, it basically allocates 1/3 to frame 1 and 2/3 to frame two, resulting in uneven herky-jerky motion). And using CF24 also drops your resolution dramatically -- instead of getting "1080i" resolution, you end up with about 450 lines vertically (i.e., less than DV), although horizontally it's still twice DV's resolution. By comparison, Panasonic and JVC's implementations will retain 100% vertical resolution when shooting 24p.
Basically, use the right tool for the job. The Sony makes excellent interlaced video, but for filmlike footage there are (or very shortly will be) tools that are much better engineered for that task.
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Re: need cine-look camera by Daniel Weber on Aug 7, 2005 at 1:20:12 am
If you want a film look, HDV is maybe not your best choice right now. The DVX100a is still a great tool for getting a real film look. The XL2 is good as well.
The JVC HD100 is 24p HDV but no one can edit it right now. Don't know when that will happen.
If you can wait the Panasonic HVX200 is your best choice. Price should be around what the Sony Z1 is without memory cards. But it gives you 4:2:2 HD footage. Also Varicam variable film rates.
Re: need cine-look camera by Mark Shepherd on Aug 7, 2005 at 4:17:06 am
I have found that if you shoot with the Sony Z1 with the Cineframe off, but having the cine gama setting on, and shoot @ 1/30 of a second shutter speed, you will get excellent "cine look" results
Re: need cine-look camera by Derek Antonio Serra on Aug 7, 2005 at 7:31:52 am
If you shoot on the Z1 using its CF25 mode, on a monitor the picture sure is very stroby. To be honest I hate it. However, if you shoot in the CF mode, use Cineform AspectHD to capture it as 24P and then go out to film for a final result, some people say the pictures look great. I'd be prone to lean towards the new JVC HD100 if 24P is what you're after. It has a decent pro lens as well, although as yet it hasn't been thoroughly tested for picture quality. Wait a month or two before deciding. The Panasonic due out at the end of the year will provide great quality, but the costs of P2 cards for HD recording will knock it out of your price range. As with all equipment, ideally you should visit filmmakers who actually own the camera you're interested in and see the gear in action before making a final decision. At present the Sony FX1, which is essentially the Z1 minus the XLR's, is a bargain at $ 2700. Decisions, decisions....
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Re: need cine-look camera by Uli Plank on Aug 7, 2005 at 10:50:24 am
If you need a camera now, go for the Sony Z1 or an European FX, but expect a bit more work in post. I would not use the CF mode at all, but shoot 50i.
Of course you'll know as a film-maker that you'll use a tripod or Steadycam wherever possible, that you should pan much softer and that you should shoot at 1/50th of a second (NOT 1/25th !).
Then, in post, use a good de-interlacer, my favourite one is FieldsKit from www.revisionfx.com and convert your footage to 25p. Finally, slow it down to 24p, but not by dropping any frames, just redefining speed (you'll need to do the same for your sound).
Hope this helps,
Uli
Author of "DVDs gestalten und produzieren", a book on professional DVD-authoring in German.
Re: need cine-look camera by Rick Diamond on Aug 7, 2005 at 1:54:09 pm
Thank you all for the responses. It seems as if the Sony requires too many work-arounds to make a good film-like image. Going with true 24P makes sense. So, it looks like the Panasonic 100A, the Canon xl2, or the JVC 100. I did some research on the new Panasonic 200. It looks pretty good. I don't necessarilly need hi-def, so would it make sense to get the 200, and use it in standard def 24P? I can always use the HD settings later on, like when the cost of P2 cards isn't outrageously high.
Re: need cine-look camera by Daniel Weber on Aug 7, 2005 at 2:50:40 pm
The HVX 200 records to miniDV tape besides P2, though it is DV25 format only.
you can shoot any of the formats the camera does and then record out the firewire port to a laptop if you don't mind being tethered. This would allow studio shooting in HD without P2 cards.
Re: need cine-look camera by 99jr on Aug 7, 2005 at 9:33:41 pm
Where do you see that hard drive recording is supported with the HVX 200. The camera records HD onto P2 cards. While some would wish that the camera could record HD out of the Firewire port I can't see how, and have seen nothing from Panasonic that they are going allow tethering. They introducing new 8gig P2 with that camera. allowing HHD recording would under mined the expansion of the P2 technology and would for all intense kill P2.
Re: need cine-look camera by Daniel Weber on Aug 7, 2005 at 11:40:36 pm
I was surprised to find this out as well as I was thinking along the same lines as you, BUT, at DV Expo in NY, I went to a presentation on the HVX200 by the Panasonic product manager. This was a 2 hr. event that also had a Q&A segment. In the presentation they stated that if you had FCP, you could capture straight from the firewire port while tethered to the camera. In the Q&A I asked them to confirm this and they did.
Straight from the horses mouth, though not in any documentation that I have read.
Re: need cine-look camera by george caramanna on Aug 8, 2005 at 3:23:56 am
I cant believe you guys are saying these cameras are better for a quote unquote "cine look" than the sony when you havent even shot with them! I suggest you simply not listen to these people. They have no experience with the JVC or panasonic HDV. They probably havent even shot with the Sony either.
I have the sony. It can produce excellent images. I - like the rest of the posters here, havent shot with the JVC or Panasonic and therefore cant comment on them. If you want a cine look shoot with a cine camera. Its not about Frame rate or progressive scan. Probably the greatest part of the look in film is the shallow depth of field. None of these cameras mentioned are superior in this critical factor.
Re: need cine-look camera by Daniel Weber on Aug 8, 2005 at 3:51:30 am
George,
Your right about the DOF, but I do own a Z1 and a DVX100. I get much more film like look with the DVX100 when shot 24P. But I also can get great images with the Z1 as well. It doesn't produce as good a "film look" as a 24P camera.
Don't get me wrong I love my Z1. For most of my broadcast work it does a great job. It does things that I like better than the Panasonic.
The original post was about a 24P look or film look. Now I know that frame rate doesn't make video look like film, but it is part of the equation/solution.
At my last job I shot with a Sony DSR-570. Now I could get a great film look with that camera without 24P.
Re: need cine-look camera by RobRoy on Aug 8, 2005 at 12:04:22 pm
Want the real "film look", Super 8 is pretty cheap and you even get a choice of most of the emulsions used for 35mm, worth thinking about if you want that look.
