New music video shot with homemade hdv35
by the black sheep
on
Apr 10, 2005 at 7:28:18 pm
Hello everybody,
we've just finished our first music video shot using our homemade mini35 adapter for the Sony HDR-FX1 (pal). It was a long but well prepared 2 and a half days shoot with a crew of only 4 with the help of some friends (catering,...). Basically, we did everything from pre-production to post. This music video is for a belgian singer and it's going to be aired on many music TV channels here like MCM,... maybe even on MTV France. Yeah, we know, the content is quite "commercial" but it was a great experience, low budget like always but it was a real fun.
We did buy the FX1 end of December and decided to go for it. Not enough time for advanced testing, we went directly to the shoot: two days indoor, then one half day exterior. We shot in a small bar, by small we mean it, it's an old european house in the center of Brussels. Actually, it was a good thing we were only 4 because there were a lot of people on the set, we had to move quickly so everyone ended up being director, dp, gaffer, grip,...
About lighting, we had a Lowel 1000w Tota, Lowel 650w Omni, Ianbeam 800w, our trusty el'cheapo 500w halogen lamps and few hand-painted colored light bulbs (40w and 150w). We did use some homemade reflectors, 2nd hand gels and diffusers,...
We did use 3 lenses, a Sigma 20mm 1.8, a Nikor AF-D 50mm 1.8 and a Nikor AF-D 85mm 1.8. We shot wide open all the time and did use some close-up diopters (+1 +2) to get some real shallow depth-of-field effects.
The asa rating of our camera setup was around 100-125 at a shutter of 1/50 0db gain so we needed a lot of light. It wasn't easy at all getting the right amount of light and a good control of the final aspect. We had to run cables everywhere because of the weak electric setup of the house,...it was fun..
The focusing was tricky too, all we had was some cheap 5.6'' LCD Car Monitor and a 14'' CRT Sony TV we had to place upside down to get the picture reversed. Please children, don't try this at home, you'll get mad asking if the person you are shooting is in focus or not ;-)
Then, we went for the exterior, wasn't much easier... sky was quite gray and we wanted to use some artificial lighting too. We're lucky to get three 2kw Fresnel Lights for free but it wasn't enough so we did use everything we had. We did warm up all the lights by at least a 1/2 CTO and used filters on the camera (ND gradient Cokin P filter).
We did capture the rushes using ConnectHD from Cineform. Then converted everything to DV (and flipped the picture). We edited in DV in Premiere Pro 1.5. Later on, we did import the premiere project in Adobe After Effects 6.5 and replaced the DV footage by the HDV footage. We did the color correction, effects,...in uncompressed HD and converted the final to uncompressed SD for final output to Digital Betacam.
Yeah, sure it wasn't perfect, we're still working a lot on the mini35, practice more cinematography,... but it was a hell lot of fun and a great human experience. Like we did for "Marla." (Just Facts: another guide to digital filmmaking), we're going to publish a new PDF guide based around the new mini35 and HDV workflow (from capturing to final output). It will be available on our website in the soon-to-be-online blog.
Our old team has split, new members are there, it's all new and fresh, we're called "the black sheep". Our goal is simply to make some movies and to share all we know and learn from it so we're really pleased to share our little experience here.
We hope you'll like it, if you have questions, just ask, we are here to answer ;-)
Re: New music video shot with homemade hdv35 by Steve Connor on Apr 10, 2005 at 7:42:01 pm
Very, VERY good post, thanks for posting all the details, the finished video looks great. Any chance of a Windows Media HD version? I would love to see the video in all it's glory.
Re: New music video shot with homemade hdv35 by Peter DeCrescenzo on Apr 11, 2005 at 2:51:38 pm
[Guy Barwood]"do you think anyone will come out with a 35mm adaptor for the 1/3" mount of the JVC camera? You wouldn't need to 'hack' into the camera that way."
Hi Guy: If the new JVC GY-HD100 HDV camera becomes popular, it seems likely P+S Technik will support it with a version of their moving-ground-glass "Mini 35 Digital Adapter". We'll have to wait and see though. Their US distributor ZGC is at:
http://www.zgc.com/zgc.nsf
... it appears they positioned a home-made stationary-ground-glass lens adapter and 35mm lens in front of the cam's standard built-in lens. Only the cam's lens hood is removed (I believe the hood is designed to remove with a slight twist?)
Re: New music video shot with homemade hdv35 by David Roth Weiss on Apr 11, 2005 at 4:35:19 am
Great work. Lighting looks very good. I doubt anyone would ever know it wasn't true HD if you tried to fool them.
To make it more film-like, I'd think about adding a bit of diffusion overall -- there's so much detail that it gives away the video at times. Please don't take that as a criticism in any way, its just the nature of the increased resolution.
Re: Not true HD??? by Steve Connor on Apr 11, 2005 at 7:59:43 am
That's a whole new debate isn't it?
Personally, I don't think the term HD applies to compression schemes, I think it applies to resolution, therefore anything that is 720 or 1080 in my book can be called "HD"
Re: Not true HD??? by David Roth Weiss on Apr 11, 2005 at 4:42:38 pm
[Steve Connor]"Personally, I don't think the term HD applies to compression schemes, I think it applies to resolution, therefore anything that is 720 or 1080 in my book can be called "HD""
Steve,
There are a million sides to this discussion that one could argue... There are technical aruguments, semantic arguments, and even arguemnts that are nothing more than wishful thinking.
You tell me, if I up-res SD video to 720 x 1080, does that qualify as HD??? You might say yes, but I would say no... I would argue that, to be pefectly honest, it should be designated as "up-rezed SD," pure and simple. Just because it has the same number of lines or pixels as HD, it isn't necessarliy HD is it???
How about simply watching SD on an HD monitor??? In that case the SD video is scaled to 720 x 1080 by a a onboard chip. Some call it "line doubling." Would you honestly argue that you were now watching HD??? I doubt it...
Truth in advertising laws deal with issues like this all the time. For example, juice that was 10% real fruit juice was sold for years right alongside products that were 100% juice, and no distiction was made bewteen the two. Companies selling the variety that was actually 90% water said, "it comntains juice, therefore it is juice." Today we know better, and there must be a destinction printed directly on the label, i.e. "from concentrate" or "10% real juice", etc.
I manitain that HDV is like HD from concentrate. To say its equal to HD is not entirely accurate is it???
Re: Not true HD??? by Ron Lindeboom on Apr 11, 2005 at 4:59:58 pm
[David Roth Weiss]"I maintain that HDV is like HD from concentrate."
Thanks, David, I just about spewed my coffee all over my laptop screen when I read this. Too funny!
But accurate.
I can see the marketing types going berserk now and the sign-boards popping up along the Sunset Strip and Hollywood Blvd: HDV: It's HD from Concentrate.
[David Roth Weiss]"To say its equal to HD is not entirely accurate is it???"
It is as you said in another post, David: "Calling BetaSP 'DigiBeta' that's only been converted to DigiBeta would be dishonest and inaccurate."
And that's not to take anything away from HDV which is quite an improvement over DV for prices which are at least within the same universe as DV.
As some have argued here and the point is always missed it seems: HDV should really be compared with DV -- which it annihilates -- rather than with F900s and Vipers, etc., against which only someone who has never worked or been around one would argue that HDV does what they can do.
Thanks, David. I have to go now. I need to wipe the coffee off my laptop.
Re: Not true HD??? by David Roth Weiss on Apr 11, 2005 at 5:33:53 pm
Ron,
Glad I made you spew forth... As you know, one of my Cow goals is to make people laugh.
BTW, I just want to make cretain that people don't lump me among the Z1/FX1 detractors. I think these cams are great tools, and I certainly want to own a Z1 myself. But, I could never call the output "true HD," and I think there are most likely many who would agree.
Re: Not true HD??? by Ron Lindeboom on Apr 11, 2005 at 5:51:31 pm
[David Roth Weiss]"I just want to make certain that people don't lump me among the Z1/FX1 detractors. I think these cams are great tools, and I certainly want to own a Z1 myself. But, I could never call the output "true HD," and I think there are most likely many who would agree."
Like you, David, I plan on buying an HDV (or perhaps a new P2) camera shortly -- I haven't yet made up my mind. But I do think that HDV is an amazing technology for the money. But like you also, I do not call it "true HD" as I have seen the difference between what a DDR-based high-end rig like a Viper can do, and what these cameras can do. For the money, they are nothing short of amazing but Daddy long ago told me, and the old man's words are still true, that "you get what you pay for."
Re: Not true HD??? by Steven L. Gotz on Apr 11, 2005 at 6:59:13 pm
I think you guys are right on. I own a FX1, and it is so much better than DV. But I can see the difference between footage from my camera, and from a friends (rented) F900. I don't know how much is the lens, and how much is the 4:4:4 vs 4:2:0, but there is a difference.
I would love to say there wasn't. But there is.
So I will be willing to admit that we should use HDV instead of HD when we write about the FX1/Z1 and other HDV camcorders.
Steven
Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 / After Effects 6.5 Pro http://www.stevengotz.com Learning Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 http://www.lynda.com Contributing Writer, PeachPit Press, Visual QuickPro Guide, Premiere Pro 1.5
Re: Not true HD??? by Guy Barwood on Apr 12, 2005 at 2:20:48 am
[David Roth Weiss]"You tell me, if I up-res SD video to 720 x 1080, does that qualify as HD??? " Interesting you ask that, as I know a person who said if they need to shoot HD they will just shoot with thier DigiBetaCam and just up scale in post to 1080i...
Re: Not true HD??? by Guy Barwood on Apr 12, 2005 at 2:28:40 am
[David Roth Weiss]"I manitain that HDV is like HD from concentrate." Some of the nicest orange juice on the shelves is produced from concentrate, so perhaps your intended slag at HDV is actually quite a compliment.
[David Roth Weiss]"To say its equal to HD is not entirely accurate is it??? " In my opinion it is, however to say it is equal to some other HD codecs is not accurate.
I think this thread has become a bit silly, but I'll jump in anyway. If you shoot on HDV, then you should refer to HDV as your aquisition format. When I describe HDV to clients, etc I say that it is the next generation of DV. You shoot on mini-dv tapes, but HDV offers 4 x the total resolution of DV, but at the same price as DV. I make it quite clear that this is an inexpensive high definition format. Nobody in their right mind would believe you anyway if you told them that a $ 5000 camera shot the same quality footage as a $ 100 000 camera. To me, HDV is the poor mans version of HD. It is high definition, being 1080i, but it is not HD as in HDCAM. Why is it so difficult to simply be honest with ourselves when discussing this amazing, cheap format. Over time HDV will push DV out for prosumer use, and the format will be refined and improved on. These are early days.
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Re: Not true HD??? by kenh on Apr 12, 2005 at 7:11:06 pm
Well said Derek. Still I've been impressed with some of those Euro music videos shot with these cameras. Give a rock to a carpenter and he/she can probably build something a lot nicer than I could with power tools.
What I hate is the switch over of our studio to a new format. The state of editing is a real mess and it's going to be for a while I'd guess, especially if everyone keeps coming out with their own versions of HDV. Anyway, I really hate giving up the SDI stuff for firewire. SDI is so solid with colors etc. a blind person could edit with it. Hopefully we can figure out a path with a Decklink card or something (and yes I know you can sort of do this now) that will allow us to keep SDI as our SD connections. Thanks for taking over the forum!
Re: Not true HD??? by Tony Robinson on Apr 11, 2005 at 8:02:32 am
[David Roth Weiss]"By the same token, if you shoot a project in HDV using your Z1, and tell the client you'd shot it in HD, wouldn't that be stretching the truth? "
No, if you told the client you shot in HDCAM or DVCPRO HD... that would be stretching the truth. HDV has the resolution of High Definition video... it IS High Definition video. When you shoot with a FX1/Z1 you are shooting in High Definition.
Re: Not true HD??? by Jiri Vrozina on Apr 11, 2005 at 9:47:20 am
It seems to me this forum is full of people who NEVER had any decent camera in their hands.....some users tend to think if they spend US5,000 they are getting true HD camera with HD processing with HD block with HD lens etc..
Like David said HD=HD and HDV=HDV.
Take care-jiri
p.s. My Thomson 150 with DVCPRO 50(SD) back will .... any time on any FX1/Z1 HDV camera.
What a rude, arrogant response, Jiri. Go post to the DVCPRO forum if you want to boast about your expensive equipment. Please don't presume to know what equipment people own or use in addition to any HDV gear they may purchase. Such unconstructive comments do nothing to nurture an exchange of information on HDV.
Derek Antonio Serra
Filmmaker
www.controversifilms.co.za
www.indv.co.za
Re: Not true HD??? by Steve Connor on Apr 11, 2005 at 11:30:04 am
Jiri's always good value!
BTW Jiri, we shoot with HDW 750's and F900's as well, do they qualify as true HD cameras?
Does anyone say that DV cameras are not SD, are Digibeta cameras TRUE SD? Then by the same token HDV cameras are HD then. Where did the whole TRUE HD thing come from anyway?
Let's not waste bandwidth on this rubbish shall we?
Re: Not true HD??? by Jiri Vrozina on Apr 11, 2005 at 12:30:06 pm
[Steve Connor]"BTW Jiri, we shoot with HDW 750's and F900's as well, do they qualify as true HD cameras?"
Yes Steve,this is where real HD starts and finishes with cameras like Viper.
Anyway,I could not resist any more...I guess I am getting tired of comments like the ones above Yours.Good to hear from you Steve.
jiri
Re: New music video shot with homemade hdv35 by DAVOKORNFLAKE on Apr 11, 2005 at 4:46:42 pm
Hi,
This is my first post here. Was really enjoying the post then we went into weird HD format war land.
Any chance we could get back to the original content of this post which was fantastic.
Would love to know much more aobut that mini35.
Thanks.
David MIlls
Director of Bedlam Oz
Outdoor Theatre company
www.bedlamoz.com
Re: New music video shot with homemade hdv35 by drazen on Apr 12, 2005 at 12:19:29 am
Hy,
First of all congratulation guys, that's the way to go. Btw I would like to know a little more on the first topic, because I am also an owner of a set of nikon lenses that are just waitin to jump onto my FX1E camera.
I am also interested at which stage exactly did you recapture the hdv material and how did you exactly do you - batch recapturing using exacting the same time code?
Rotating the picture process in AE, how much time did it take and on what kind of computer machine?
Which editing capturing card are you using, how well does it perform with cineform and premiere pro, how did you the transfer to digital beta (print of tga sequence, taken on external disk and to some other studio) or through your own editing machine and vtr camcorders.
You are saying that the ISO dropped to 125 or 150, what does it mean in terms of stops, what is the initial sony ISO rating at 1/50 shutter speed.
Filters were mounted directly on camera photo lenses?
Did you use matte boxes?
Please more details and hopefully some pictures of the 35mm adapter, a scheme would also be nice.
Hopefully not too many questions for the first time.
Re: New music video shot with homemade hdv35 by the black sheep on Apr 16, 2005 at 2:22:31 pm
Hello everybody,
thank you very very much !!
- We did capture the rushes in HDV using ConnectHD from Cineform. The raw MPEG2 stream is converted to Cineform's AVI codec on the fly. We took the HDV AVI files and converted them to DV. So we had two folders, one with the HDV rushes, one with the DV. It was pretty simple to replace the rushes in After Effects using the "replace footage" command.
- Rotating the picture in AE took some time, don't exactly remember how much time, but I do think that with fast hard disks and a modern Pentium 4, it'd be near realtime.
- We didn't use a capturing card, simply the firewire port on the mainboard. We edited in DV, so we're able to get a tv monitor output really simply. At the end, we took our SD master converted it to quicktime blackmagic 8bit codec (because the studio we're working with uses blackmagic cards), copied the file to an usb2 harddisk and that's it. Took the file in Final Cut for the export in DigiBeta in real time. We didn't have any problem with the broadcast levels, we did check it before the final export.
- We didn't really test the initial ISO of the Sony since we're probably going to use it only with the Mini35, we're sorry we can't help you on that.
- The filters were mounted on the photo lenses using a Cokin P filter system.
- We didn't have a matte-box unfortunately, it would have helped getting rid of a lot of bad flares indoors.
We're working on the PDF guide that will include a step by step how-to guide to build your own mini35.
They weren't edited in any way, they're straight out from the uncompressed SD master in After Effects. We just added the logo and exported in JPEG (quality: 10).
the black sheep
creative film video & photography
www.theblacksheep.be
H
y,
First of all congratulation guys, that's the way to go. Btw I would like to know a little more on the first topic, because I am also an owner of a set of nikon lenses that are just waitin to jump onto my FX1E camera.
I am also interested at which stage exactly did you recapture the hdv material and how did you exactly do you - batch recapturing using exacting the same time code?
Rotating the picture process in AE, how much time did it take and on what kind of computer machine?
Which editing capturing card are you using, how well does it perform with cineform and premiere pro, how did you the transfer to digital beta (print of tga sequence, taken on external disk and to some other studio) or through your own editing machine and vtr camcorders.
You are saying that the ISO dropped to 125 or 150, what does it mean in terms of stops, what is the initial sony ISO rating at 1/50 shutter speed.
Filters were mounted directly on camera photo lenses?
Did you use matte boxes?
Please more details and hopefully some pictures of the 35mm adapter, a scheme would also be nice.
Hopefully not too many questions for the first time.
