Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor?
by jesse jacobs
on
Sep 3, 2008 at 11:21:07 pm
What is the best method for obtaining the highest quality video for a DVD with only 10-15 min of video content?
I have been experiencing washed out colors both in my menus and in my video assets.
I am still trying to isolate the issue. So I am looking for the highest quality. All video assets are 720x480 rectangular non-compressed.
I am doing an NTSC SD DVD. Some recommend to create a full-res non compressed quicktime 720x480 (rectangular pixel) and then importing and then encoding within DVDSP.
Others recommend using Compressor to encode outside DVDSP and then bringing it in. If compressor is better what are the best highest quality settings using compressor? For example, The default "90 min best qulaity mpeg-2 is making everything 640x480 rather than maintaining 720x480. This seems like a down-res.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Keith Troester on Sep 3, 2008 at 11:59:04 pm
It's really a matter of how much you want to customize the encode. DSP's encoder is very basic. Compressor is more editable.
Each project is different, based on the complexity of the footage, interlace versus progressive, etc. If the footage is very consistent and simple in motion and speed, you don't necessarily need a VBR encode. I've used a CBR, and it still works quite well. VBR will take longer because it has more thinking to do.
I hated the Best Quality 90-Min preset, so I edited it. They use a 7.7 MBR, I believe, which is higher than I would go. My ceiling is at like 6.5, and it has worked consistently well. This is for 29.97 interlaced SD projects, coming from HDCAM or DigiBeta.
For Output Fields and Field Dominance, I use Bottom First. I had field issues with their preset, which is why I changed it.
There are a lot of factors, but I would look further into the 90-Min preset to really see what it's doing to your footage.
My Weekly Comic for TV Techs: http://fpscomic.blogspot.com
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 4, 2008 at 2:19:08 pm
Hey Keith,
Thanks for describing what works for you. I know compression is a relative thing so its hard to ask what is the best, because it depends on the footage.
For example, in broadcast TV-- generally rendering something non-compressed (or animation Best) at D1 is the highest quality. But I imagine encoding is more nuanced.
That being said I am looking for an average place to start for encoding very high quality for a time line filled with commercials, ie short form and as hi-res as possible.
Did you start with the 90 min preset and then modify? If so, did your post include all the specs you altered ? What did you hate about the 90 min preset? What don't you like about 7.7 MBR? Is it too high and therefore a risk for older DVD players?
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Keith Troester on Sep 4, 2008 at 10:33:54 pm
I'm reluctant to post my specs because it varies. My specs are good for the consistent work that I'm doing, but that doesn't mean it will work everywhere the same way. In Compressor, I find 2-Pass VBR (not best) to be the best encoder of my footage, but that's because it's intense cuts and transitions, so I want it to be break down the footage to be the most efficient in bit rate. It does a great job.
There is no "best" setting. It depends on what your end product needs to be. Some people/clients are more finicky about quality than others. I work as a Quality Control Evaluator, so I try to achieve the greatest picture and sound that I can in my DVD projects.
And sometimes it's good to take a break from all the numbers and jargon, and just look at the picture. Could it look better? Is it where it needs to be in terms of quality?
-Keith
My Weekly Comic for TV Techs: http://fpscomic.blogspot.com
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 4, 2008 at 2:32:21 am
[jesse jacobs]"I am doing an NTSC SD DVD. Some recommend to create a full-res non compressed quicktime 720x480 (rectangular pixel) "
Hi Jessie,
This is pretty basic stuff. In which codec is/was your origional source media, and have you added any graphics in that same time-line setting?
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 4, 2008 at 1:54:52 pm
Thanks for the responses. My source footage is graphics intesive, a lot of live action mixed with visual effects, and animation.
Original format is D1 720x486 (rectangular pixels) which I then convert to NTSC DV to prep for the DVD.
720x480 (PAR rectangular 0.9)
Frame rate 29.97
None Compression mostly sometimes Animation at highest quality
Audio 44.1 kHz
What do you mean "have you added any graphics in that same time-line setting?"?
The time line consists of 30-45 second commercials and a montage of work, with some title cards.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 4, 2008 at 9:16:48 pm
[jesse jacobs]"Original format is D1 720x486 (rectangular pixels) which I then convert to NTSC DV to prep for the DVD.
"
I hope you realize that your media was PAL, and that should be converted to NTSC first by the best method you can afford for this project BEFORE you do any editing, and adding any graphics.
How have you converted? (work flow and method)
That is where you should start.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 5, 2008 at 5:44:12 am
I have read that link -- and am very familiar with varying square and rectangular work flow. Can you be more specific about why you think I am down converting?
Maybe I wasn't specific enough. My pipeline is not stretching the footage. I am taking D1 720x486 rectangular and clipping the top 3 pixels and the bottom 3 pixels to make it 720x480 DV. DVD encodes at 720x480 rectangular. As far as I know this is the best method.
I don't believe your suggestion is related to my issue. But thank you. The main issue that I am having is that no matter how pristine my footage, prior to DVDSP import, and even assembled in the simulator, after the DVD is burned, it is totally washed out from a gamma shift. This is happening to menu assets as well.
It was suggested that I should change the display space to generic RGB. But this hasn't worked so far.
So I am inquiring about methods to prevent this, by suggestions about preping assests with quicktime and possibly compressor.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 5, 2008 at 6:59:49 am
[jesse jacobs]" am taking D1 720x486 rectangular and clipping the top 3 pixels and the bottom 3 pixels to make it 720x480 DV. DVD encodes at 720x480 rectangular. As far as I know this is the best method. "
Jessie, clipping pixels doesn't make it DV. Size change does not make Codec change.
I'm not sure this doesn't cause some type of scaling, but this doesn't account for the gamma shift.
Are you sure you are not re-rendering to a poorer codec (which DV is) or have you up-converted and then downconverted.
What exactly is your origional media? Check what it is in the QuickTime player.
If you are encoding in DVDSP, the simulator shows the pre-encoded video and will always display the video differently (better quality) than the final product.
I would not encode in DVDSP, Compressor gives you more control. Try that and test.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 5, 2008 at 7:21:20 am
Actually clipping does makes it the aspect ratio of DV instead of the D1 aspect ratio. I am not using any codec. Not a DV codec, etc. It's non-compressed. I listed this in the initial thread. "All video assets are 720x480 rectangular non-compressed." Everything is non-compressed. In quicktime Format, None 720x480 rectangular. There is no loss. Make sense? Again this is not my issue.
I didn't realize that DVDSP is displaying the non-encoded source in the simulator. How does this account for the menu's being washed out as well?
Can you recommend a standard Compressor pipeline to at least start with?
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 6, 2008 at 2:36:18 am
Jessie, do you realize that you are using the term DV as a size or name for your "un-compressed" as you call it digital video.
DV in video engineering is an actual Codec (a compression algorithm). Watch how you use terminology. Uncompressed is again something else, not DV.
Now, again, what are your origional source material specifications BEFORE you touched it, including color-space. true uncompressed video is 4:4:4, be exact please.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 6, 2008 at 3:41:05 pm
Alex, I see now I wasn't clear by saying DV. I was mistaken. Sorry. The reason I specified that is because in After effects there is a preset called NTSC DV this means its 720x480 (0.9 PAR) which has nothing to do with codecs compression etc. So I thought you could refer to DV is an aspect ratio 720x480 not just a codec. You can have a preset called DV in After Effects but output render full-res. So I thought you could refer to something as DV seperate from its codec compression etc. A friend clarified...
DV is a hardware and software specific spec. DV is A "wrapper" term that includes both. DV is a codec. DVC-Pro to be specific. 720x480 happens to be the size of something that is DV. Can you have a 720x480 uncompressed movie? Absolutely. Is that DV? NO. To say something is DV is to say specifically it is 720x480 with a dcvpro codec.
Now, that being said, source material that is created from scratch, motion graphics for example, I have no idea what the component signal is made up of. I dont know if it is 4:4;4. Chances are nothing you have is 4:4:4 because you have not shot on a camera that has that quality, nor have you shot on film and maintained a 4:4:4 pipeline of that film footage. *(For Example, you can shoot on film, do your color transfer on a DaVinci, and if you lay that footage off to a HDCam (Industry Standard) you are already 4:2:2. You have already lost your 4:4:4; quality).
I hope this will answer your question. Here is my source:
720x480 (0.90)
29.97
Millions of colors
None (or Animation for GFX spots)
44.100 kHz
And my main question is how do I make quicktimes in DVDSP that don't result in a color shift where the blacks aren't black. Either in Compressor or prepping straight Quicktimes from apps like FCP or AE.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 7, 2008 at 12:44:24 am
Jessie,
This is an Apple product forum, why do you insist on using Afer Effects terminology, which is totaly irrelevant and misleading here.
You have not mentioned your source Codec, it has to have one, "None" is not a Codec.
Uncompressed video is not without a codec, there are many flavours of un-compressed, it has a choice of description/codec.
This is vital to your question
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Michael Sacci on Sep 6, 2008 at 5:25:38 pm
Jesse,
In all this I cannot find one place where you list the most important thing - what is your CODEC. There is no need to PREP the size of the file before hand. Plus cropping 3 and 3 pixels is a BAD idea, you should always be using even numbers 4 and 2, 6 and 0 but never 3 and 3.
You are just adding confusion to you workflow.
Never evaluate quality in Simulator, it is a simple way to proof navigation, all quality control should be done with a built file and disc.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 6, 2008 at 6:24:05 pm
I must be missing something. As far as codec its a quicktime with two types compression.
1. None (for live action)
2. Animation (for GFX)
In the output module of quicktime in various apps you can specify your compression type. Video Output:format options:compression type:none
Isn't that the codec? If there is some other thing I am missing please tell me where to find it in my quicktime profile and I will tell you. This is a question about my source, not after it has been encoded to an mpeg.
As far as cropping If you don't crop 720x486 to 720x480 how do you prevent it from distorting your footage, squashing the interlacing, etc.? Isn't the source prior to encode supposed to be 720x480? I believe my re-render results an even #. Its cropping the height 486 to 480, subtracting 6 pixels total from the top and bottom. In AEP you take a quicktime 720x486 and drop it in a 720x480 comp. It automatically centers it, leaving 3 pixels from the top and bottom out of the comps area. Then you re-render. This is a method I've used for years and I thought it was standard. If there is another way that would be great.
As far as the simulator, I gather that it is not an accurate representation of the final burned DVD. Someone even mentioned that it is using the source quicktimes not the encoded ones. Is that true?
Bottom line how do you prep original lossless movies for DVDSP without a color shift, gamma shift, preserve the black levels--where the blacks turning grey? I'm just looking for a method. These are quicktime movies I have put on DVD for years and suddenly they are all washed out. There is something happening with colorspace quicktime, color profiles from app to app etc.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Michael Sacci on Sep 7, 2008 at 12:50:18 am
First Quicktime is NOT a codec, DV, DVCPro50, Photo Jpeg, ProRes, H.264 are just some examples of codecs. QuickTime Play will give you the codec of an opened movie under Movie Inspector (Format).
Most pixel conversions use a 4/2 removal and not a 3/3. If you are forcing a 3/3 yourself it is not a good thing, you are shifting the field order if you removal an odd number from top and bottom (but I know in the end they all give you the even number of 480) But if you use compressor to encode the m2v (or even DVDSP) it removes the 6 lines of pixels also, so this is a wasted step in my opinion and causes an extra compression generation and extra space on the HD.
For best quality encode it is best if you are working with a codec that has 4:2;2 color space (DVCPro50, SD Uncompressed, ProRes) If you have added graphics in FCP (and especially if you are using a codec like DV) it is always best to export the timeline to Compressor and to make the m2v file.
Simulator is using the files you brought into DVDSP, so if they are m2v already it is using that, if a ref movie to be encoded in DVDSP it is using that.
So to recap.
I always encode movies to m2v (with compressor or something like BitVice) then bring the m2v into DVDSP.
Whenever possible I Export the FCP timeline directly to Compressor (this ties up FCP and Compressor while it encodes but I think it is well worth it)
I never change codecs or "prep" files before going to compressor.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 7, 2008 at 1:09:02 am
[jesse jacobs]"Bottom line how do you prep original lossless movies for DVDSP without a color shift, gamma shift, preserve the black levels--where the blacks turning grey? I'm just looking for a method"
Again what are the specs and source of your "lossless movies", are you telling us they are entirely
generated on your Mac?
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 7, 2008 at 5:12:47 am
Alex and Michael thanks for being patient. It appears I haven't been very clear just describing the source. Something is either getting lost in translation or and maybe I'm just missing something, or am simply not as informed. I wasn't aware there were different flavors of NONE.
I posted a screen grab of the inspector for some example quicktimes that use none compression and animation compression. I have also posted 5 frames of the quicktimes so you can verify yourselves.
I know quicktime is not codec. And I am very familiar with the formats you have listed. I know there are varying qualities in colorspace 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:2,4:1:1 etc, but I'm not sure how to detect that in the quicktime inspector. I have a variety of projects. Some telecined from film, edited, with vfx added and and then a final export as uncompressed quicktime (none, Millions) to generate clones from. Or some are strict animation which have been strictly computer generated and then exported using animation compression, millions). Take a look and let me know what you think.
Once we agree what to call the source maybe we can move forward on how best to use compressor to avoid these color shifts.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 7, 2008 at 6:37:35 am
Jessie,
Before I give up on this, give us an exact workflow. Are you going into FCP from After Effcts? What are your time-line settings?
Again are you telling us this movie is one entirely generated on your Mac?
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 7, 2008 at 7:07:10 am
Alex, I am not going to FCP at all. All movies that were prepped for DVD prior to encode were done in After Effects. "Is this movie is one entirely generated on your Mac?" This is a broad question and I will try to answer it. Some no. Some yes. There are a range of projects and some were live action and went through several steps before they were finally output through a mac. For example this would be the maximum amount of steps: 35mm Film to telecine to D1 or digibeta to offline editorial to conform, then to a FLAME suite to .TGA sequences to a MAC and then rendered as a non-compressed (usually 16bit) quicktime for archive. The ones that were generated entirely on a mac are pure graphics. In terms of the prep recently for DVD its all on a mac. No mac/windows conversions etc.
Most of these source movies I have been prepping and putting to DVD for years without any trouble, without gamma shifts etc. I have only experienced this using DVDSP on the new macs with the latest quicktime.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 7, 2008 at 11:47:11 am
[jesse jacobs]"Most of these source movies I have been prepping and putting to DVD for years without any trouble, without gamma shifts etc. I have only experienced this using DVDSP on the new macs with the latest quicktime. "
So what software have you been using prior to DVDSP, and if the results were better, why have you changed?
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 7, 2008 at 2:44:28 pm
Some software I can't even remember when DVD authoring first became affordable on windows years ago. I would make menus with images, buttons etc. It was a hassle to author but eventually looked good. Adobe Premiere (Mac) used to have an auto-play export timeline. Most recently just idvd using autoplay or basic menu, where I stripped out a template. The video always looked great. There were never gamma shift issues.
I changed because I wanted to author a dvd that was just slightly more customizable. In idvd I customized some basic template like from a wedding or some goofy family album thing and just make 1 simple basic menu with chapter marks. But it was just a linear viewing. This new DVD isn't all that more complex. Its 3 menus: Main Menu with a play all, a projects button to a second and third menu for projects listed by name with a picture. I tried doing this in idvd but you are really bound to the templates without much flexibility.
My guess is its been happening more recently because as software and hardware develops there are attempts to provide consistent standardized color across applications and platforms. Ultimately it seems the goal has been to give more control by for example embedding custom color profiles within quicktime. The real trick is pinpointing where in the pipeline the color shift is happening and why.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 7, 2008 at 11:46:41 pm
Now that i have seen your samples, you could have said that you are an effects editor, and are looking for the best way from After Effects to DVD.
How much video engineering do you understand?
Try posting on the After Effects board http://forums.creativecow.net/forum/adobeaftereffects
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 8, 2008 at 7:00:35 pm
Thanks fro the recommendation Alex. I am a designer and vfx artist and have been working in commercials post for years. I have a understanding of the fundamentals of post but I would defer to engineers for serious back end video film issues and information.
My problem is that DVDSP is washing out the color creating a gamma shift across the board for both the menus and video. Since I have been putting my reel on DVD for years with the exact same video assets, I don't see this as an After Effects forum question. The video assets could just as easily be re-rendered in Quicktime Pro or FCP. What would be useful is rendering with particular color profile embed or a codec that helps prevent this in DVDSP.
Now Michael has recommended using compressor. Which I am experimenting with. I can ofcourse do a gamma correction to help enrich the blacks for my video. But its happening on all video. So to me its seems strange that DVDSP is washing out the blacks for everything. This still leaves the menu's which are washed out. Its happening to Tifs, PSDs. I've tested with "don't color manage" , "generic RGB" profiles. DVDSP always washes everything out. I can obviously correct all my footage and correct all my menus to add more black. But to me this seems like a flaw in DVDSP or in the general instructions that would account for this.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 9, 2008 at 4:55:52 am
OK now I can try and help.
The problem is the nature of the files that you generate is a bit of a mystery to the m2v encoder in DVDSP. (Now this Compressor in basic mode, and it does it's best).
You really ( as I keep hammmering ) need to understand video engineering to a level above where you are now.
IMHO you should put your After Effects material into an 8-bit or 10 bit Un-compressed FCP timeline and export to m2v via Compressor.
Inside FCP your media will retain it's source Codec and ignore any poorer compression, and hence any final delivery codec from here will be the best it can be.
Try this and report back.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 9, 2008 at 7:17:17 am
Hey Alex, thanks for peristing with me. I tried your recommendation. I have detailed my results with .png screen grabs for refs. Unfortunately, it has the same gamma shift results. (unless ofcourse I missed a step)
1) Dropped the source 720x486 D1 (0.90) Animation Millions into a FCP timeline.
2)Set the timeline to 10 bit uncompressed 4:2:2. I think that is the format you are recommending?)
3)Rendered the timeline.
4) Exported to compressor.
5)Compressor 90 min DVD Best default, rendered.
6) Import into DVDSP. Drop in track. Set Track as first play.
7) Burn DVD
Result:
All movies prior to burn maintain blacks with reasonable gamma until burn when it becomes washed out.
Repeated the same but with an AEP export of source to a 10bit version. Then brought that into compressor and repeated the above steps. Same results.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alexander Kallas on Sep 13, 2008 at 4:37:33 am
[jesse jacobs]"Hey Alex, thanks for peristing with me. I tried your recommendation. I have detailed my results with .png screen grabs for refs. Unfortunately, it has the same gamma shift results. "
Jessie,
try rendering in FCP in RBG (sequence settings>....) seeing as how your stuff is computer generated.
Then export to m2v via Compressor.
This is about the last gasp isn't it? (grin)
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Michael Sacci on Sep 7, 2008 at 6:40:42 am
Jesse,
Yes things are getting confused, why, you being asked, "what codec," and then using "Compression" in its place. This has muddied the waters.
I have never run into anyone that actually set the compression to NONE. But if it works for you fine but I would recommend using 10-Bit Uncompressed instead.
Also I have not seem any mention to you trying any of the recommendations that I listed or if you actually made a disc and looked at that.
Do go over it again.
Don't "prep" your footage before making the m2v, if will get rid of the extra 6 lines of pixels when you encode the m2v.
Encode the m2v in Compressor before bringing the files into DVDSP.
There will always be a slight difference is color since you are compressing and moving into a norrower color space. Going from 4:2:2 to 4:2:0.
If you want to lighten or darker the footage you can test out the filter tab in compressor, this is a trail and error deal.
SIDE NOTE: your audio is 44.1 this is wrong for everything video, audio should be 48.8. Also video frame rate is 29.97 but you have your animation file set to 30fps.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 7, 2008 at 7:39:29 am
Michael I had been doing tests in compressor -- but was trying to stay on topic. I have been reading your suggestions with great detail. I have never used compressor and had only recently started learning DVDSP.
I was hoping DVDSP was going to be good enough to encode without such problems, thats what I was originally trying to determine, i.e. Can you import your source quicktimes into DVDSP and have DVDSP encode them without this gamma shift. I gather from your suggestions that I need to use an outside encoder such as compressor or something like it. I have access to compressor so I will proceed down that path. Since I am new to it there is a learning curve. For example the DVD best quality preset keeps rendering an aspect ratio of 640x480. I just don't have clear grip of the app and the pipeline.
As far as the codec there wasn't one other than 'None'. Its funny you say you have never run into anyone who does that. Generally in my circles in commercial vfx/design post and rendering with none or animation has been considered lossless. Its standard. To me its as common as saying D1 720x486 (.90 PAR) And then people throw on None.
I looked back in the and I believe the colorspace is actually 16bit.
As for the side note 44.1 was a mistake. That is just on the 5 frame re-rendered qt's. My source audio for my QT's are 48.0 kHz. And the 30fps project was generated completly CG so maybe that is why that has a 30fps setting. I can't remember it was done so long ago.
In the past I've just done simpler autoplay DVD's and never had a problem with image quality, let alone gamma shifts. I guess I need to learn how to use compressor. I will try to take your suggestions and apply them. I was hoping that app was more simple and someone could post a preset that worked well as a place to start. The gamma filter seems like a good option as well.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by Alan Okey on Sep 8, 2008 at 9:57:39 pm
Jesse,
Try downloading the trial version of BitVice and encoding some short test files to see if the gamma shift is present when using something other than DVDSP to encode your video files to MPEG-2.
Re: Encoding: none compression quicktime VS. Compressor? by jesse jacobs on Sep 8, 2008 at 11:50:50 pm
Thanks I'm willing to try anything. I think its something in DVDSP and gamma issues either in the application itself or the way its interacting with the OS. I did a compressor test today. I am using the standard best Quality 90 minute preset.
My original source is 720x486 (0.90) 29.97 Millions Animation 16 bit 48 khz.
Comparing my source quicktime with the Compressor encoded mpeg2 .m2v the blacks seem fine within the quicktime window. The compressor movie looks good in DVDSP simulator. Once compressor burns it is washes out again. And the colors continue to wash out upon burning.
