Replication Delivery Requirements
by Chris Faull
on
Aug 28, 2008 at 2:39:48 pm
I am about to output a project for replication and I am hoping someone can clarify my workflow and delivery requirements.
It's a DVD-9 (dual layer) video project. I have seen advised on the forum that it's best to use DDP 2.0, and that CSS is NOT recommended (although I was unsure why). And for some reason the DDP file should not be delivered on DVD (again, I was unsure why).
So my thinking is to do as follows (please advise if at any stage I am doing something stupid!):
1. Build the project and deliver the VIDEO_TS folder either via Toast to disc as a DVD-Video from VIDEO_TS burn, or via hard disc (USB Drive?)
2. NOT select CSS (why?)
3. Format to Hard Disc with DDP 2.0 then copy the folders (both Layer0 and Layer1) to hard disc (again USB drive?) for delivery for replication facility.
Any clarification would be much appreciated, or even just confirmation that I'm doing the right thing!
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by eric pautsch on Aug 28, 2008 at 3:35:09 pm
1. Burning a VIDEO_TS to disc is for you to check your authoring - don't send this for the replication run - thats what your DDP images are for :)
2. Not sure who told you CSS is not recommended? It should be offered free of charge by your replicator. Ask them why and get back to us.
3. You need to send your DDP files on a HDD or DVD-R. Delivery on DVD-R can cause several read errors but its rare. In fact, I know Technicolor, the Largest authoring house in the Universe, delivers all their DDP files on DVD-R.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Lucas Fazzary on Aug 29, 2008 at 11:46:14 am
I definitely agree with Michael. I work at a replicator and occasionally when the workload is too heavy to satisfy all ship dates, we will have to outsource the replication. We still have to ask the other replicators what they accept as a source master.
I have no problems telling people what I accept for master format (which is just about any format you can think of, even Video_TS on a DVD-R/DVD-R DL) but some people will still disagree even thought they have never sat in front of a Premastering system or talked to Eclipse or even been to a replicator. They go by what their replicator has always told them. And all replicators are different. So asking in here will yield different results. Ask the Premastering supervisor at the replicator.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Michael Sacci on Aug 29, 2008 at 5:36:38 pm
I would agree with not asking only if you are sending DLTs, if any place had a problem with that I would run from them as fast as I could. Anything else I would ask.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Lucas Fazzary on Aug 29, 2008 at 6:07:18 pm
Please just ask the replicator. I think they would know what they accept better anyone else. How do I know this? Oh that's right I do this for a living.
*Trai please post your discounts in the "jobs wanted" section of Creative Cow or buy some ad space to the left. No one should be here to make money from each other, unless they ask you for a service. Hell I can offer the same service for probably less if not free, but I would rather people learn from the Cow and do these things on their own.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Trai Forrester on Aug 29, 2008 at 7:42:23 pm
Hi Chris,
Sorry about my last reply being a little insensitive and commercial.
But I was just having such a nice workday and came over to visit the Cow, and saw the kind of advice you were getting in this thread from a couple of folks, and I was just floored (I turn my back for just a little while, and all kinds of shenanigans go on! :-).
In answer to your question - no; it is not OK to put your layer files on two DVDs. Not saying it can't be done, but it's not professional. Now, if this is your own DVD and you're not working for a client, then you can do it and hope everything works out.
But if this is a pro job with a paying client, then the only way you can do it is to tell the client you don't have a DLT drive and thus cannot submit their files professionally, and that you're going with the fall back option of using recordables. They need to know there's a much greater risk that something will go wrong with this type of submission. If they have a deadline, then it would be good brief them on the advisability of buying you a DLT drive (if you're not able to buy it yourself), or using a service. In other words, you need to see if it's OK with the client if you happen to blow their deadline - not just submit away without some sort of professional disclosure.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Eric Pautsch on Aug 29, 2008 at 8:22:47 pm
You could ask the replicator but unfortunately alot of folks end up talking to brokers. Lucas knows his shit (Oh...and you too Trai) but I believe he's the exception in the world of replication. I've been screwed by Replicators (right Trai). I don't think I'd deliver anything other than DDP images on HDD or DLTs.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Trai Forrester on Aug 29, 2008 at 9:20:59 pm
Yes, Hard drive is good; but the reason I prefer DLT is that it's universal at replication facilities - many replicators don't take hard drive submissions.
Also, the tape(s) act as a robust archive of the Image for future use. I suppose one could leave a hard drive in the closet for that purpose, but tape seems more appropriate and definitely cheaper (don't get me started about archiving on DVD-R :-).
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Lucas Fazzary on Aug 29, 2008 at 9:41:06 pm
Thank you Eric. It is true as I have heard from many of our new customers that their old replicator did nothing to the extent that we do for our clients. It is for 1 reason that they do not, and that is because they think they are saving money. This is simply not true and ends up hurting them in the long run. In this business Time is Money, but if you don't have time to do it right at first, then when will you have time to correct it? This is our philosophy. Do it right the first time rather than waste time doing it wrong and having to do it again.
When selecting a replicator there are a few things they should do. I have a feeling people do not know what happens when they send their master off to a replication plant. Here is what we do.
1. Virus scan every master. I saved a major client of ours not only humiliation but 40,000 CD's and 40,000 potentially pissed off customers because their master had a virus.
2. Put the DVD master in all available DVD players. Yes we accept DVD-Video masters and I will tell you why. What do you think happens when a stamper goes bad during the run or even after its 3rd or 4th run and a new stamper is needed. Our library of masters would take up half of our 30 some thousand square foot building. They use the previous run to premaster from. Yes a DVD-Video disc. It is a pressed disc, but Image Verify the DVD-R to the DVD pressing and guess what, no verification errors. They are a bit-to-bit copy. That is why we only keep CSS masters. We have a CSS storage room that we keep DLT's, DDP on DVD-R masters. Any DDP on HD get copied to a DVD-R through Eclipse.
Some will say that the drives that are used with Eclipse have better error correction than most DVD players. This is true. Eclipse only has a few certified drives to use. But If your master has some performance issues on the way in and even stutters when played back, this does not mean it will be on the replicate as long as it passes Eclipse Image copy w/verify on. Case and point, every now and then we have a customer submit their master and it stutters like hell in the DVD player. Used Image copy to create a new master and it was fixed. This is because of cheap media or a burner on its way out. However the data was written to the disc and with the expensive drives (with better error correction) we use it was able to recover the data without problems. And I have no problem sending this master to glass mastering. Trust me if I thought it would be a problem I wouldn't have a job right now.
I check *most* links on a DVD to make sure they work. If I find something wrong, the job goes on hold and the customer is notified. Remember though I am not your mom, check your work before you send it. If I do find an abnormality with the program I use numerous tools to check the authoring structure. Then I send an email to the customer and explain what is wrong and how to fix.
Now off to stamper land.
3. After the stamper is created we analyze the stamper for flaws and defects. This is not too important for you but at least if a stamper is bad it will not make it to the mold. Not a big deal if something is wrong with the stamper it will show on the pressed disc.
4. After pressing the first couple discs they are placed in a CATS system. If there is an E32 error on a CD or a POF error on a DVD it gets rejected immediately and pulled from the mold. These errors are not from your master. these are from an issue when the stamper was made, or the wrong process (parameters) are loaded into the DVD process. If your replicator does not stop the job after an E32 or POF GO FIND A NEW REPLICATOR! If it passes, another pressing is CATS tested. Yes our CATS systems always have a pressing in them. It takes a few hours for testing, so when the next disc goes in you have almost 2000 discs pressed! If a stamper goes bad in the middle of each test we don;t lose as many discs. If you only test once and the stamper goes bad during a 50,000 piece run, it will take you a while to find out where in the run it went bad.
5. So now your master has passed in Eclipse, stamper passed, CATS passed, then off to QA. Find out what your replicators QA checks for, if anything. Our QA dept first does an Eclipse Image Verify from the pressing to the original Source master. This proves that what came out is exactly bit-for-bit-what went in. Then they watch the video. Not for macroblocking or any sort of editing mistake (it is up to you as an author to check your own work!! That is being professional. don't burn your master and throw it in the mail without checking over and over first.) If we do find macroblocking or they find something abnormal with the pressed master, once again the job goes on hold and the customer is notified. If nothing is wrong, off to be screen printed, packaged and shipped.
That is the process of CD and DVD manufacturing.
Now send off your master on DDP on DVD-r's, DLT, DDP on HD, Video_TS, Wamnet, Exabyte, FTP, DVD-R DL, whatever your replicator takes. Just investigate your replicator before you send your stuff to them. If they do good checks and verifications throughout the process then you should have no worries. Always get a check disc on a DVD-9. Always check your own work before you send it. Do not go through brokers, they are ripping you off and usually have no clue what they are talking about. And when in doubt send your shit to Sony, Cinram, Technicolor, or Sonopress.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Lucas Fazzary on Aug 29, 2008 at 10:30:24 pm
Haha. I know it's coming. I don't know why these discussions get out of hand. I have a proven track record of Authoring, premastering and replicating (yes I actually started out as a cd/DVD molder and printer) Like I said If we EVER had a problem because of a way a master was submitted (not including a client playing floor hockey with the master) we simply just wouldn't accept it anymore. The fact is that if you want to talk about professional, call 1K Studio, Deluxe, or Cinram and see how they submit their masters. You will be surprised! And these guys are as professional as you will get. They do 90% of the Hollywood titles. Deluxe Authors and Replicates in the same building. If you think they are going to wait 4 hours to write 2 DTL's and then 4 hours to premaster the DLT's before pressing then you are greatly mistaken. They write DDP to HD and the premaster. BTW Deluxe in Burbank is a really cool studio used to be a Hard Rock.
As a matter of fact give me 5 good reasons why DTL is the best way to submit a master and I will give you 5 reasons why it doesn't matter.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Michael Sacci on Aug 29, 2008 at 10:47:11 pm
I give you 2 reason to use a DLT -
1) the client requires it to get paid.
2) if the client requires/requests a DLT they get charged $80/hour to make it plus stock cost. I do explain the options so it is their choice.
Great explanations Louis, very informative, thanks.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Alexander Kallas on Sep 1, 2008 at 2:53:02 am
[Lucas Fazzary]"When selecting a replicator there are a few things they should do. I have a feeling people do not know what happens when they send their master off to a replication plant. Here is what we do. "
Thanks for this extremely enligtening post Luke, it clears out most of the bs including Brokers, around this topic.
I'm a little confused as to the non-DLT path to the replicator.
For including CSS, in a single-side single-layer project, DVDSP in DDP 2.00 protcol will write 3 files including Layer0.
Which do you actually need from the client and what can you add that you need at the replication facility.
Also Chris's idea of submiting on a USB stick, is this "safer" than writing to DVD-R?
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Lucas Fazzary on Sep 1, 2008 at 9:32:04 pm
I'm not sayin you can't write to a DLT. It is secure. The problems with DDP on DVD-R is the disc scratching and using low quality media. If you handle the DVD-R with care and your replicator accepts it then it is a perfectly acceptable format for replication. You need to burn the entire Layer0 folder to the DVD-R.
I actually have found more problems with DLT then with DVD-R or external HD. DLT's have many different formats and certain DLT machines will only read or write to certain DLT types. Plus DLt machines can and do write bad data just as anything else can, even with verify on. I experience this on occasion. More so then with DVD-R and HD.
We accept DDP on DVD-R with CSS. I actually tell most clients that have issues with DLT to submit back-up masters on DVD-R in case the DLT is unreadable. We have 2 DLT 4000, a DLT 7000, and a DLT 8000 and there are times that none of them will read a certain DLT.
Fact of the matter is I know that I can output DDP to HD or DVD-R and start working on another project within an hour. If I am writing to DLT it is a 4 hour process that ties that machine up. So if you have enough spare time then by all means write to DLT, I do not have this type of time so DVD-R is the perfect solution. Just make sure your replicator accepts this format first. If they do accept it (which they should) then as long as you don't scratch the disc you are 100% ok to use this format. For someone to tell you that you cannot is just not acceptable.
We accept DDP on a USB drive and it is gaining popularity since the drives are getting cheaper and cost less to send.
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Alexander Kallas on Sep 1, 2008 at 11:32:22 pm
Thanks luke, good info, not quite answering my above question.
So again, when submitting on DVD-R, is the layer0 is sufficient, and the VIDEO-TS folder just for verification?
The size difference between these two files I presume is the CSS ecryption.
BTW on the Mac these should be burnt in the DVD-ROM UDF format, not ISO 9660 ( as the latter on a Windows machine will not read files >2GB)
Re: Replication Delivery Requirements by Lucas Fazzary on Sep 2, 2008 at 12:52:45 am
Sorry bout that.
Yes the Layer0 DDP is for premastering and the Video_Ts disc would be for verification.
"The size difference between these two files I presume is the CSS ecryption. "
Yes, the CSS master writes 2054 byte-sized blocks and the video_TS is 2048. The CSS will be slightly larger, as it needs part of the extra 6-bytes for the CSS keys.
